2008.08.05 07:00 - Six hour Session

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    This Tuesday morning 7am session was GoC by Riddle.  The comments below are mine.  I have invited participates and will now invite all readers to also comment throughout.  It is a big log and some corrections and clarifactions are needed.

    Herein lies another new marathon record session.  At first I titled it "Online, off the line chat plays".  Then it evolved to maybe: "Riddle talks uncontrolably".  Most probably this should be titled something to do with "Words about using Words".

    Actually, I was only present for the first hour and hours 2-4+.  Helpful other guardians took over.

    Dear Reader: you might consider taking a lunch break at some point during this read.

    Fael was already there when I entered.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Riddle :)
    Riddle Sideways: Morning Fael
    Riddle Sideways: you are here early
    Fael Illyar: I just arrived a minute before you :)
    Riddle Sideways: after not being able to get in last night
    Riddle Sideways: i decided to come in early
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Riddle Sideways: did you come to the 7pm
    Fael Illyar: 7pm SLT is 5am my time.
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Fael Illyar: so, no :)
    Fael Illyar: that's the meeting that if I appear at, tell me to go to bed :P
    Riddle Sideways: ok, will do
    Fael Illyar: At least, If I'm in Finland.
    Doc enters.
    Fael Illyar: Hello Doc
    Riddle Sideways: I keep forgeting 'where' ppl are
    Fael Illyar: I don't remember everyone either :)
    Doc Freenote: hi
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Doc
    A little bit about last nights trouble getting to the SL Pavilion.  Perhaps others had no problems, but Sl did not load for me.
    Doc Freenote: what's new?
    Riddle Sideways: last nights SL and/or internet was acting odd
    Faenik: could be
    Riddle Sideways: many main line sites were unavailabe to me
    Riddle Sideways: but others were ok
    Fael Illyar: Connection problems at critical places, sounds like
    Riddle Sideways: I have not read anything about it yet
    Doc Freenote: did you have a nice break from online . . ?
    Riddle Sideways: yes, my son was cooking odd foods
    Riddle Sideways: so I got off-line and played in kitchen
    Doc Freenote: nice!
    Fael Illyar: That's nice too :)
    Riddle Sideways: I had never cooked cactus / prickly pear
    Then the checking up on each other's travels.
    Doc Freenote: i've been away for a bit too . . .
    Riddle Sideways: where have you been
    Fael Illyar: I was mostly away for 2 weeks :)
    Doc Freenote: tokyo
    Riddle Sideways: very nice
    Doc Freenote: just a week or so
    Fael Illyar: I was just visiting my sister in another town. only 2 hour train ride away.
    Doc Freenote: my laptop pc can't handle SL I think,
    Fael Illyar: me cellphone certainly can't :)
    Riddle Sideways: lol
    Riddle Sideways: soon maybe
    Fael Illyar: who knows :)
    Riddle Sideways: I was at a shakespeare festival for a week
    Doc Freenote: really?
    Riddle Sideways: saw 6 plays in 6 days
    Doc Freenote: interesting
    Doc Freenote: is there theater in SL?
    Theater is one great staging media for many playing activities.
    Riddle Sideways: when I think about Playing As ...
    Riddle Sideways: I had not thought much about Plays as in the theater
    Doc Freenote: what was your favorite of the ones you saw?
    Riddle Sideways: we discussed that a lot... and there was no favorite
    Riddle Sideways: they were all so different
    Doc Freenote: i see
    Riddle Sideways: mid-summers nite was set in the 60's and 70's, very campy
    Riddle Sideways: OurTown was done pure and simple as was written
    Faenik: could be
    Riddle Sideways: Othello was commanding
    Doc Freenote: interesting. I am not currently a shakespeare nut, but I can definitely see the attraction. Everything I have seen I have loved. all the play with words and meaning and humor etc
    Riddle Sideways: I also am not a shakespeare nut
    Fael Illyar: Sounds like I should take a look someday.
    Riddle Sideways: I usually can not understand the language
    Doc Freenote: Plays are amazing worlds unto themselves
    Riddle Sideways: Yes, we saw a play named "the further adventures of Hedda Gobler"
    Doc Freenote: aristotle's idea of catharsis can still be felt in a good play
    Riddle Sideways: a new light comedy about plays, playwrites, and fictional characters
    Doc Freenote: sounds interesting
    Riddle Sideways: that was a mind twisting PaB activity
    Doc Freenote: the kind of intertextuality thing is big now right? watching plays within plays about plays and playwrites etc right?
    Fael Illyar: what is aristotle's idea of catharsis?
    Doc Freenote: like reality TV about reality TV
    Riddle Sideways: and violations of the 4th wall
    Riddle Sideways: and my sitting in an audience
    Riddle Sideways: watching the other watchers
    Fael Illyar: Hi Adelene :)
    Doc Freenote: but shakespeare was doing all that long ago right?
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Adelene enters stage left.
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo :)
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Adelene
    Faenik: indeed?
    Doc Freenote: better than i can articulate it : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis
    Adelene Dawner is amused at herself - she was here for the 1am meeting, went back to sleep, and woke up - no alarm clock - two minutes ago. This is her 5th meeting in a row, every 6 hours.
    She also stayed the entire 4 hours.  Only having to stop to eat once.
    Riddle Sideways: just as the email group were starting to talk about Seeing
    Riddle Sideways: I was seeing these plays
    Riddle Sideways: congrats
    Riddle Sideways: so, you were able to get into the 7pm
    Faenik loves wells!
    Adelene Dawner: yup.
    Adelene Dawner: I've been to every meeting starting with yesterdays's 7am one.
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Riddle Sideways: that is really good
    Riddle Sideways: wish I could, but...
    Adelene Dawner: But don't let me interrupt - what were you talking about?
    Fael Illyar: I've only done 3 a day at most I think.
    A couple threads can resolve at the same time.
    Doc Freenote: welcome adelene. we were talking about plays, intertextuality, catharsis
    Riddle Sideways: we were moving toward, my saying I was having problems with YSBS
    Riddle Sideways: yet seeing Plays is easy
    Doc Freenote: what is YSBS?
    Riddle Sideways: "You seeing, Being seeing"
    Riddle Sideways: "Seeing" the play, players, playwrite, audience, theater all at the same time is doable
    Doc Freenote: do you feel something like the cleansing implied by catharsis after a good play?
    Riddle Sideways: yes and no
    Fael Illyar: I think I understand this catharsis now. Something I've experienced myself with really good books and even some television series.
    Riddle Sideways: there is both the cleansing and the invigoration
    Doc Freenote: I know what you mean
    Here we start into what this session should have been titled.
    Doc Freenote: by the way, i am not trying to be all high-minded by throwing out these terms. . . they are just the conceptions left in my mind by various professors. . . so they are part of my thought process now. language can have a way of creating distance when jargon is introduced. that is not my intention of course
    Riddle Sideways: understood
    Riddle Sideways: I was not thinking that way
    Fael Illyar doesn't mind, as long as she can understand what is being talked about.
    Fael Illyar: Although, I do not think in words.
    Fael Illyar: When I'm writing or talking, it's all translation from something wordless.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Riddle Sideways: as it should be
    Adelene Dawner grind at Fael :)
    Doc Freenote: hmm
    Adelene Dawner: er, grins.
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Doc Freenote: I think i process a lot by making these verbal connections to concepts i have heard, read, or studied
    Doc Freenote: it is interesting how people process in different ways
    Riddle Sideways: some of the words that I (mostly) understand have only been read and never spoken to me
    Riddle Sideways: when I pronounce them the first time in public
    Riddle Sideways: others correct me
    Adelene Dawner: Been there, Riddle :)
    Fael Illyar: I sometimes have that too.
    Riddle Sideways: besides I can't spell those words, like cartharsis
    What words can we use to be understood.
    Doc Freenote: what do you mean?
    Riddle Sideways: there are many words that I have only read
    Riddle Sideways: I could use them in writing
    Doc Freenote: i see
    Riddle Sideways: but can not pronouce them
    Doc Freenote: yes we speak and write in very different ways
    Doc Freenote: also
    Doc Freenote: this is a text chat. . . so it follows a certain course that would be very different if we were speaking, right?
    Riddle Sideways: correct
    As a demonstration of our powers, we will all lead and follow at the same time.
    Riddle Sideways: I have been an english speaker for all my life
    Fael Illyar: Yes, nothing prevents us from talking (writing) all at once.
    Riddle Sideways: and when shakespeare is read by me I do not understand
    Fael Illyar: No need to wait for others to stop before you begin. You can also edit what you're going to say before you show it to others.
    Doc Freenote: good point
    Riddle Sideways: yes, I do
    Doc Freenote: that has a big influence on the discourse doesn't it
    Riddle Sideways: wouldn't that be nice in RL
    Riddle Sideways: or verbal chat
    Fael Illyar: Much less need to worry about not talking on top of each other.
    Riddle Sideways: to delete / edit
    Doc Freenote: interesting to consider which is preferable
    Riddle Sideways: and we keep 2-4 threads going
    Fael Illyar: Of course, more than 4 writing at once all the time tends to get a bit difficult to follow :)
    Fael Illyar: ... maybe that is more than 4 threads
    Doc Freenote: i am in a class right now, and in spoken language I realize there is a ton of miscommunication
    Doc Freenote: of course this occurs with text as well. interpretations are subjective
    Faenik: ????^^
    Riddle Sideways: if we add in poor grammar and mis-spelling and typos
    Doc Freenote: ????!
    Fael Illyar: at least with text, you can verify what you wrote after the fact :)
    I got lost about here.
    Doc Freenote: I wanted to use that phrase earlier
    Doc Freenote: but I thought no one would get it
    Doc Freenote: a useful phrase conspicuously unavailable in English
    Doc Freenote: "as expected" just doesn't cut it. . .
    Fael Illyar: not quite, no :)
    Fael Illyar: also, with text, all of our speech looks mostly the same so there is not much danger of bits being lost because of random noises
    Doc Freenote: true
    Fael Illyar: simpler to "receive" the message :)
    Doc Freenote: there is a transcript
    Doc Freenote: one can also see, visually, if he has dominated the conversation. . .
    And had been spenting some time scrolling backward to catch hold.
    Fael Illyar: yes, you can scroll up to see what was said before if you didn't pay attention earlier :)
    Doc Freenote: haha
    Adelene Dawner chuckles at Doc.
    Doc Freenote: sumimasen
    Fael Illyar: easier to leave a permanent record you can search with automated tools too :)
    Doc Freenote: it is very tempting for me to follow my own line of thinking with text. . .
    Fael Illyar: your own line of thinking?
    Avastu enters.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Avastu :)
    Riddle Sideways: then there is the syntax, vocabulary and context that each of us bring
    Doc Freenote: in a conversation there are cues when people might disagree, misunderand etc
    Riddle Sideways: Hi avastu
    Doc Freenote: true riddle. hi Avasty
    Doc Freenote: Avastu
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friends
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo :)
    All of a sudden I am posessed with the chatties.  I just have to take over this session and tell my story about my favorite teacher.  I am guessing I didn't want to pause for fear somebody would type in the middle of my story (if it has some point).
    Riddle Sideways: One of the greatest teachers I ever saw
    Riddle Sideways: would walk around the room
    Riddle Sideways: using different words to each person
    Riddle Sideways: I would not get what he said to my neighbor
    Riddle Sideways: but the words he used to me were
    Riddle Sideways: always right on
    Riddle Sideways: they were the words I needed
    Doc Freenote: intersting. because the teacher knew that we all speak different languages in a way
    Riddle Sideways: yes, it was an amazing thing to watch
    Doc Freenote: that is very interesting
    Faenik: ah :)
    Doc Freenote: uncommon I think
    Fael Illyar: Talking to someone goes much easier when you talk the language he/she understands.
    Riddle Sideways: I really have never met another teacher like that
    Doc Freenote: most professors tend to become absorbed in the language of their own field
    Riddle Sideways: he was part magician too
    Riddle Sideways: in that what he said
    Riddle Sideways: might not become true for a few minutes
    Doc Freenote: but it sounds like this teacher was interested more in communication
    Riddle Sideways: I would GET it minutes later
    Riddle Sideways: he was into deeper communication
    Riddle Sideways: and knew that the words were different
    Doc Freenote: that is really cool
    Riddle Sideways: for each set of ears/minds
    Doc Freenote: how was he so keyed in to his students' personal languages?
    Riddle Sideways: I am not completely sure, but have studied it for years
    Riddle Sideways: he "KNEW" each person
    Riddle Sideways: he was so tuned in
    Riddle Sideways: that what you needed came out of his body
    Riddle Sideways: a third point about him.
    Fael Illyar: what did he teach?
    Riddle Sideways: was that he was "not to be worshipped"
    Riddle Sideways: many gurus become idols
    Riddle Sideways: he smoked, drank and womanized
    Riddle Sideways: yet if you could hear his words
    By now Doc and I have left everybody behind (except Faenik).
    Doc Freenote: Kenneth Rexroth said something like: there are two ways of knowing: UNDERstanding and OVERbearing. most teachers try to overbear. but this teacher seems like he was more intersed in understanding and all that implies
    Doc Freenote: meaning he had investigated his students' languages and wanted to succeed in communicating with them
    Riddle Sideways: yes, he spent his life understanding the subject he taught
    Riddle Sideways: and how to teach it to individuals
    Doc Freenote: rather than dominating them
    Faenik: indeed?
    Riddle Sideways: ha, actually
    Riddle Sideways: in some cases I saw him over-dominate some students
    Riddle Sideways: in some cases, he did nothing for or to some students
    Riddle Sideways: It was not for me to know why some were treated such
    Riddle Sideways: only the way I was taught by him was meant for me.
    Doc Freenote: sounds Japanese
    Riddle Sideways: oh, he was an american who moved to japan in 60's to study aikido
    Doc Freenote: I study aikido
    Doc Freenote: i had been thinking of that during your description
    Riddle Sideways: he studied with O'sunsea during his last years
    Doc Freenote: really?
    Riddle Sideways: all the meta-physical stuff
    Doc Freenote: my current sensei is really into that
    Doc Freenote: actually practices omoto-kyo
    Riddle Sideways: in Tokyo?
    Doc Freenote: no
    Doc Freenote: shizuoka
    Doc Freenote: are you an aikidoist?
    Riddle Sideways: in my heart
    Riddle Sideways: some 30 years at it
    Riddle Sideways: for me it has extended somewhere else
    Doc Freenote: that is the best place to be one. so you are still practicing?
    Riddle Sideways: my body can't take the mat grind
    Doc Freenote: i have only been at it about 7 years
    Riddle Sideways: getting back up 80 times an hour is very bad for me
    Doc Freenote: i seee
    Riddle Sideways: but, I now practice every time I open a door
    Riddle Sideways: and in every business dealing
    Riddle Sideways: when computers attach me
    that should have been attack.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Riddle Sideways: :) some typos are funnier then others
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Doc Freenote: paying attention to once's ???yielding
    Doc Freenote: one's
    Riddle Sideways: ask your sansei about bob Nado
    Doc Freenote: ok
    Doc Freenote: there is another concept that is missing from English (frequently).  ??
    Doc Freenote: I am always at a loss for how to translate that
    Riddle Sideways: sorry all,, for taking all the chat here
    Doc Freenote: opponent is too strong in most cases
    Fael Illyar: ?????
    Doc Freenote: me to . apologies
    Riddle Sideways: getting off the line
    Oh dear, Adelene and Fael get Doc and I going about "Lines".  I can now see their confussion.  some of the lines are out of order above  (not lined up).
    Adelene Dawner: What line?
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Fael Illyar: yes, no lines here :)
    Riddle Sideways: being in the moment and out of somebody elses time
    Fael Illyar: nothing prevents us from saying something :)
    Adelene Dawner: Good, Riddle!
    Riddle Sideways: ah... lines is a very good subject
    Riddle Sideways: we are typing lines here
    Riddle Sideways: we are persueing lines of thought
    Doc Freenote: true
    Riddle Sideways: we are going down threads
    Fael Illyar: It isn't that you are dominating the discussion. It's that we are not speaking.
    Riddle Sideways: A way of seeing it
    Fael Illyar: well, both at once, really
    Fael Illyar: but the cause -> effect chain is "we don't speak" -> "you dominate"
    Adelene Dawner: not the other way around. yes.
    Faenik: ????^^
    Fael Illyar: Therefore, you have nothing to apologize for.
    Riddle Sideways: TY
    I just won't let go of my subject.
    Riddle Sideways: lines (curves) are very interesting
    Riddle Sideways: do you not see lines here
    Faenik: why not?
    Adelene Dawner: how so?
    Fael Illyar is a bit confused about what sort of lines you mean.
    Adelene Dawner: (or what Faenik said ^.^)
    Riddle Sideways: oh dear, so many lines
    Riddle Sideways: SL is prims which are lines
    Riddle Sideways: joined
    Riddle Sideways: there is your line of thought
    Riddle Sideways: another is your line of seeing what we discuss
    Riddle Sideways: you take a certain view on all that is discussed
    Riddle Sideways: and we watch your line of thought / seeing
    Riddle Sideways: oops, too metaphorical
    Riddle Sideways: I am not that great teacher that bob Nado is
    Fael Illyar: I think he'd prefer you stop worshipping him ;)
    Fael nails me.
    Riddle Sideways: lol
    Riddle Sideways: you are right
    Riddle Sideways: how (in text) do I show you were I am not standing as you present
    Fael Illyar blinks in confusion.
    Riddle Sideways: we are receiving all that each of us is giving
    Riddle Sideways: yet not attached to it
    Riddle Sideways: unless we want to be
    Riddle Sideways: by attitude
    Riddle Sideways: [loss of words]
    Riddle Sideways: yet there is a sense of Seeing
    Doc Freenote: here is a totally different angle perhaps
    archangel enters and leaves soon after finding that he can't sit on the cushions.
    Fael Illyar: Hello Archangel.
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Archangel
    Archangel Finesmith: hey everyone
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo
    At this point it as been over an hour.  I have a contractor needing to meet with my client about some understandings.
    Riddle Sideways: however people I need to get to some RL stuff
    Doc Freenote: hi
    Riddle Sideways: all I did was confuse and then leave
    Riddle Sideways: bad me
    Doc Freenote: zi think what you are hinting at is the difficulty of pure communication
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Riddle :) No, that doesn't matter.
    Doc Freenote: bye riddlge
    Doc Freenote: riddle
    Riddle Sideways: My av will stay and record further, but I afk
    Fael takes right over.
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: Archangel, is this your first time here?
    Fael Illyar: Archangel, it's likely your AO that is replacing the sit pose
    Archangel Finesmith: probably i m gonna change it
    Doc Freenote: I have to head off to sleep . . .
    Doc Freenote: see you guys
    Fael Illyar: Good night Doc :)
    Adelene Dawner: 'night
    Archangel Finesmith: cya
    Doc Freenote: oyasumi
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    Doc Freenote: bye
    Doc and Archangel exit.
    Fael Illyar: Oh, he left.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adelene Dawner: I think it was interesting, in a way, what happened with Riddle earlier.
    Fael Illyar: Yes?
    Adelene Dawner: We were silent, so he felt a need to talk, I think...
    Adelene Dawner: but if he'd been silent too, I would've felt that need myself.
    Adelene Dawner: I'm kind of grateful for the chance to sit and think. :)
    Fael Illyar: I'm having less of that sort of need than when I was starting.
    Adelene Dawner: We'll all get to the point of not feeling that need, I hope, but in the meantime... I don't like people feeling guilty about 'making' others be silent...
    Fael Illyar: Me neither.
    Fael Illyar: but I don't feel guilty about others feeling guilty :)
    Adelene Dawner: Well yeah.
    Adelene Dawner is mostly just getting this down in text for the log ^.^
    Fael Illyar: it doesn't have to stay as just text for "just" the log :P
    Adelene Dawner: ?
    Fael Illyar: Well, mostly, feeling guilty is another kind of attachment so I try to soften it.
    Adelene Dawner: Talk about it when it happens, you mean? Yeah, that too - it's not mutually exclusive with having it in the log explicitly.
    Beware, Fael is on the lookout for habitual apologizers. :)
    Fael Illyar: I'm thinking to start mentioning about this whenever I see someone thinking they shouldn't talk here :)
    Fael Illyar: like, apologizing for talking and such
    Adelene Dawner: mm-hmm ^.^
    Fael Illyar: rather common attachment that one :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: I keep being surprised by people being hesitant to speak here.
    Adelene Dawner: I'm not, really. Common social rules don't encourage that kind of thing. This group is very unusual about that, in some ways, and it takes a while for a new person to see that and trust it.
    Fael Illyar: It's common in online groups that people are free to jump in.
    Fael Illyar: At least, in succesful ones it is
    Adelene Dawner: hmm. True, but online groups are usually a bit less focused than this, or don't happen in realtime, or both - I think the realtime conversation is the real stumbling block - there *is* a time issue, and people know that and try to compensate for it.
    Faenik: why not?
    Adelene Dawner: Like last night - everyone got upset that Caspian was taking up the time.
    Adelene Dawner: (Well, not everyone. You know what I mean.)
    Fael Illyar: Well, most of the group, yes :)
    Adelene Dawner: This seems like the other side of that -and here I go, filling in the space, I'll stop after this line - where there's a feeling of a limited resource that should be divided equitably.
    Fael Illyar: Why?
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adelene Dawner: Why which?
    Fael Illyar: divided equitably :) Or how do you divide it for that matter?
    Fael Illyar: and how do you see if everyone has got their fair share?
    Gaya enters. (Gaya: I didn't know what I was getting into.)
    Adelene Dawner: Time is LoR, and dividable by nature - as Doc said, you can see if one person has dominated the conversation, 'gotten' most of the time.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Gaya Ethaniel: Still here?
    Fael Illyar: yep
    Gaya Ethaniel: Lucky me :)
    Adelene Dawner: And as to 'fair share' - There're lots of ways of deciding that, but only a few societally common ones that I know of - and we, you and I, don't seem to worry about any of them, just what happens happens. Which is as it should be, here. ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: 'Morning Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Mornin' Adele
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please don't mind me and continue the discussion
    the role of listener and speaker.
    Fael Illyar: I was mostly just wondering about only looking at who can speak. How about those who want to listen?
    Fael Illyar: not talking anymore just because you fell you've taken too much of the time is not what those who want to listen would want.
    Adelene Dawner: I guess one of the societal assumptions - self-fulfilling prophecy, too - is that nobody really *wants* to just listen. :)

    BTW - I should point out that Avastu has been sitting "just listening' for all this and more.  (Gaya: I almost forgot Avastu was there...)

    Adelene Dawner: 'Cept in a few situations like, oh, school lectures and presentations - which have other baggage that's even less appropriate for here, so people avoid that.
    Fael Illyar: well, I doubt anyone especially wants to just listen but I usually want to do both.
    Fael Illyar: although, I tend to lean towards listening
    Adelene Dawner: 'wants to just listen' isn't quite the same as 'just wants to listen'.
    I will be thinking about that for a long time.
    Fael Illyar: I usually only say something if no-one else is saying something I feel is relevant and worth saying.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders what 'talking' includes in Fael's case
    Adelene Dawner: And the rest of the time you're just-listening, not thinking about things to say, though the option is there if something comes up, hmm?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I'm usually not thinking things to say. If I'm you'll see me writing :)
    Fael Illyar: Of course, that's a bit more complex than that
    Adelene Dawner: As opposed to *just* listening - no option to say anything. Like in a lecture. (Yeah, words fail. Again.)
    Fael Illyar: You mean someone wanting to only listen, have no option of saying anything?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well imo, clarification talking and just as much important as feedback talking...
    Faenik: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: If you exclude clarification comments from talking.. that's like sitting in a lecture
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: well more or less
    Adelene Dawner: Something like that.
    Gaya Ethaniel did interrupt teachers :)
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Adelene Dawner: There's a - difference of state, for me, in the two. In a lecture, it's going to be what it's going to be regardless of if I even think about it, so why bother, unless it's actually interesting. The teacher's not going to get anything from me, either way.
    Adelene Dawner: But with this - even when someone's 'dominating the conversation' there's a decent chance that I'll have some small thing to contribute, and they will get something from me - who am I to ignore that opportunity? So I pay attention. Learn a lot that way, too, about things that I wouldn't usually find engaging.
    There was the word "engaging" for the first time.
    Here Gaya gives an excelient example of what Adelene has been said.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is it important that others 'get something from you'? to you Adele?
    Adelene Dawner: I guess so, since there's such a difference. Hadn't noticed that before though.
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders whether that matters... it's up to the others to decide what to take or not...
    Fael Illyar: My motivation for interjecting comments is ... that and that I might also get something out of reactions to my comment.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Important thing is that there are opportunities for everyone to participate if that's what they want.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adelene Dawner: True, Gaya, but the opportunity to offer is important.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... said that just before you typed Adele :)
    Adelene Dawner: offer isn't quite the same as participate, I think.
    Adelene Dawner: I mean, really close, but not the same.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well yes offer is suitable if others are willing to listen imo so participate is more neutral word for me to use
    Gaya Ethaniel: At PaB generally people are eager to share so perhaps offer does fit
    Fael Illyar: yes, offer feels like you're giving something, no expecting anything back. participate feels more like two directional.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Much depends on who's here...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Adele imo, when we are talking/listening it is a form of social interaction, which means whether we verbalise our thoughts out or not, it's to an extent two directional
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adelene Dawner was distracted by BF, eading back
    Adelene Dawner: *reading
    Gaya writes a great line that nobody jumps onto.  Sorry, I was out of comment range, because I would have joked and pushed her on it.
    Gaya Ethaniel finds easy to write her thoughts on diary as it never talks back at her
    Gaya Ethaniel: np
    Adelene Dawner: I agree with Fael more than Gaya... Gaya has a point too, there are subtle layers of two-directionality just by being here, but it's more potential than anything... offering is more one-directional than two-directional, at least that's my feeling on it. I'm not*engaging* in a conversation, just interjecting something into it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: If I respond to your comments (offers), that makes it two directional no?
    Gaya Ethaniel: If I frown at you that's also two directional
    Gaya Ethaniel: or smile
    Gaya Ethaniel: or leave you
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: or stay
    Fael Illyar: to me that wouldn't be offering.
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders how any social interactions can be offering only...
    Adelene Dawner: Depends on how - if you respond to my comment by drawing the point into a conversation you're having with a third person, I'm still not really 'engaged'.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Your offerings will always have an impact on the others who are listening to you
    Adelene Dawner: Of course...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes from your point of view Adele, if you offer something and not exepcting anything from the other , yes it's one directional. However as long as the other is present while you offer it goes both ways, whether the others to choose to respond in any way
    Adelene Dawner: this reminds me of 'attachment' in a way
    Gaya Ethaniel: how so?
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friends
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: See you later Avastu :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good day Avastu
    Avastu leaves.
    We have engaging, offerings and attachment going on in one and two directional dialogs being discussed.
    Adelene Dawner: When I'm offering instead of engaging... the comment happens, but I'm not attached... if you respond well or poorly or ignore it altogether, it doesn't matter, if I'm purely just commenting... that level of detachment is rare, and actually a little rude in some situations, but the similarity seems accurate anyway.
    Adelene Dawner: doesn't matter to me, anyway.
    Gaya Ethaniel: By me being here, you being here, listening to you and talking... all these are changing my 'reality' which cannot be one directional
    Adelene Dawner: Why not?
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's more than just you offering to me... what we do each moment change things & how we are... I cannot call it one directional or any directional
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's difficult to put this thoughts in words
    Gaya Ethaniel will reflect again tonight
    Adelene Dawner: Ah, but if I'm really not attached, whatever you do doesn't change me.
    Gaya Ethaniel: No just the mere action of us choosing to be here change 'reality'
    Gaya Ethaniel: changes 'reality' for that particular 'reality'
    Adelene Dawner has the impression that 'change reality' is an incorrect mixing of LoA and LoR...
    Fael Illyar is somehow feeling like there is agreement but argument.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hm... difficult!
    I have reread the log and don't see an argument. (Gaya: I didn't see any argument either. I wonder what made Fael to use the word...)
    Fael Illyar: (in short, I lost track of what you're arguing about)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: bah
    Gaya Ethaniel: Guess i'm trying to point out to Adele that offering is not just one directional action
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's also a form of engagement
    Adelene Dawner: In a way, you're right, Gaya, because true pure detachment doesn't really happen. To whatever degree that's not happening, it is a two-directional change, and to whatever degree it is, it's a one-directional change.
    Faenik: why not?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Unless she's writing her thoughts down, which don't get showing
    Adelene Dawner: Heck, if I was truly purely detached, I wouldn't comment at all; probably not even be here, because why bother?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Once I 'engage' a person to share, this offering becomes an engagement
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... detachment you used Adele is somewhat different from how I see the word
    Here is the important section.
    These lines contain the seeds for so many thoughts.
    Gaya Ethaniel: A person who doesn't have attachments are not detached from the 'world or reality' whatever we call it', one lives fully engaged in the world without attachments. That's what we are here for I'm guessing
    Fael Illyar: Is there an especial need to agree on what the words mean? as long as you know what each of you means with them?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes because conversation can easily go off track if we don't agree on a definition
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's like 'is Buddhism a religion?' Well that requires us to define what a religion is
    Gaya Ethaniel: This reminds me of 'hidden assumption' Fael. We may have assumptions behind certains words that we are not aware of from each other
    Fael Illyar: Yes, and you don't need to use the words similarly. As long as you know how the other one uses them
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adelene Dawner: Actually I suspect that we are talking about the same thing, we just don't know what the pure state would look like because neither of us has experienced it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I may never will do :)
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pema and I was talking about 'the state' that it's illusionary. It's in ESBS log
    Gaya Ethaniel: were*
    And I returned just after.  Probably distrubed what might have gone on and on. (Gaya: was a big relief to see Riddle coming back to type my thoughts out in 'English' here.)
    Riddle Sideways: ah, I got done with phone meeting and ya'll are still here
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Riddle Sideways: and having the most fastinating chat
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: Well, not all of us :)
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Riddle Sideways: I was not offering nor engaging
    Riddle Sideways: but recording
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Riddle Sideways: does that flavor the conversation
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well you will be offering/engaging when you post the log Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: yes, I will put my comments in the margins
    Riddle Sideways: and I will correct my speeling

    Yes, gentle reader, you must see that I have edited and commented as another mind have warped the conversation.
    Only the shadow knows to what gain I have twisted these words. (Gaya: you know Riddle, this log does read like a play...)

    Fael Illyar: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Riddle Sideways: I am continuely reminded of a wine tasting Nova TV show I watched years ago
    Riddle Sideways: the first 2-3 days were the group discussing terminology
    Riddle Sideways: they all had to spend days saying a word and tasting something
    Riddle Sideways: only when all could relate a word to a taste could they
    Riddle Sideways: progress to discuss the finer points
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Fael Illyar: Yes, calibration is necessary.
    Riddle Sideways: we have never spent all that much time defining
    Riddle Sideways: yes, calibrating what offering and engaging mean
    Riddle Sideways: to one another
    Faenik: ????^^
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: re: detachment, guess I just want Adele to continue coming here. My motivation behind the calibration :)
    Adelene Dawner: Oh, I will, of course. I'm nowhere *close* to that level of purity. ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel laughs out loud
    Riddle Sideways: :) yes I too come here only to be close to Adelene, Fael and Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel thanks Riddle
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Hadn't I talked enough.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Riddle think this is my first time really talking to you. Can I ask a couple of question about you? ie. Are you religious?
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Riddle Sideways: I was raised with no religion
    Riddle Sideways: in late teens I went searching
    Riddle Sideways: I investigated all world religions
    Faenik: why not?
    Riddle Sideways: and created my own
    Riddle Sideways: set of beliefs and practices
    Riddle Sideways: but, was only skin deep in almost all of them
    Riddle Sideways: I now have taken that universal understanding into the jewish religion
    Riddle Sideways: and am going deep now
    Adelene Dawner: Interesting. Threedee is Jewish, by practice if not by belief.
    Fael Illyar: Jewish? Interesting :)
    Fael Illyar: Although, I don't really know much about that.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Could you tell us a bit more why you have found Judaism particularly relevant to you?
    Riddle Sideways: there is a family and daily life practices (rather then over-worldly and organizedly) feeling that resonated with me
    Riddle Sideways: family is important
    Riddle Sideways: living a good life is important
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel has found stories from Talmud much like Zen stories :)
    Riddle Sideways: most religions base on that too
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Riddle Sideways: stories, parabols.

    Undeclared time to go around the circle stating our religions.

    Fael Illyar isn't following anything specific but seems to have most contact with Zen.
    Faenik: ????^^
    Adelene Dawner was raised Lutheran, works in a Roman Catholic nursing home, answers questions about her faith with "why do you ask?", and isn't fond of organized religion in general. :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I was talking about this yesterday with a friend who is a Buddhist. We both agree that the possible reasons behind which particular religion we choose to 'follow' are due to our conditioned life background, experiences...
    Gaya Ethaniel: At the core, all main religions share common grounds I think
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I find organized religion a bad idea.
    Gaya Ethaniel: And also 'religions' we make up ourselves for that matter
    Riddle Sideways: Most people seem to just stay in the religion that their parents put them in
    Fael Illyar: I'm building my own set of beliefs as I go.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to be part of a community and comfortable/familiar I guess Riddle
    Fael Illyar: At the moment I'd be surprised if I pick one of the more common ones to say I belong to it.
    Faenik loves wells!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I understand Fael, that's why I hesitate to categorise myself 'buddhist'
    Fael Illyar: I feel it' just simply wrong to lump yourself into a category like that.
    Riddle Sideways: I did for years too
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't do that simply because I'm not sure yet. I wouldn't disregard anyone calling themselves to be 'buddhist', 'christian' or any other
    Fael Illyar: what changed your mind?
    Faenik: ????^^
    Fael Illyar: sure, anyone can call themselves however they want :)
    Riddle Sideways: 1.self-made religions don't have community. 2. I finally needed to go deep into any one
    Gaya Ethaniel: I believe some of them when they identify with a particular religion do have meaningful spriritual connections to it...
    Faenik: why not?
    Gaya Ethaniel: So Riddle, you've realised the importance of 'spiritual friends and guidance'?
    Riddle Sideways: yes, mostly
    Fael Illyar: We all need someone else to watch over us and point out if we're going off the path.
    Riddle Sideways: some of my guides are a couple thousands years old though
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    It is amasing that with everybody talking simultainiously, we all of a sudden zoom in on one united subject.
    Fael Illyar: but... something bugs me about just picking a community to join.
    Riddle Sideways: what?
    Gaya Ethaniel: You picked PaB Fael
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: 'picked'
    Fael Illyar: Looks like I did. Not a religion though :)
    Riddle Sideways: not science either
    Gaya Ethaniel: Who to say? Often I wonder whether PaB is a 'cult' or a 'religion'
    Fael Illyar doesn't feel like either of those matches.
    Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Depends on how you define 'religion'. We're closer in some ways than, say, Unitarien Universalism."
    Adelene Dawner: *Unitarian
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well can't find a right word as everyone in this group is equal and we talk freely
    Fael Illyar: not a hierarchy
    Gaya Ethaniel: yep Adele another case of difficulties with words here
    Gaya Ethaniel: hierachy is not necessary for a 'religion'
    Gaya Ethaniel: Whatever PaB is you are here Fael
    Fael Illyar: nope, but an important element to be missing.
    Fael Illyar: I guess the important part is that I didn't go out looking for PaB. I just knew I found it when ... umm I found it.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods at Adele
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's how it happens most of time Fael :)
    Riddle Sideways: sometimes it then takes on a life of its own
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Riddle what does PaB do for your spiritual needs? I find it useful but not enough. I use it as a part of my 'practice'
    Riddle Sideways: yes, part of my practice
    Riddle Sideways: it gives exercises and group discussions
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Oops, somebody looked at a clock.  Must have been one of the 15 minute gongs.
    Adelene Dawner: This may be a new record for session length - 2:45 so far ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel: That long already?
    Fael Illyar: yep
    Adelene Dawner: You came late, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: gosh I do babble on... :)
    Fael Illyar: I guess we are heading to that continuous presence Pema was wishing for :P
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Riddle Sideways: don't all meetings now go on this long?
    Riddle Sideways: last week, mine was 3 hours
    Adelene Dawner: Usually about 1:30, from what I've been seeing this week.
    Gaya Ethaniel: 3?!
    Gaya Ethaniel notes Riddle's GOC session time
    Faenik: why not?
    Adelene Dawner: 3 hours, wow.
    Fael Illyar: my last one was 36 minutes
    Gaya Ethaniel: normally 1 - 1:30 for me
    Fael Illyar: the one I was GOC for
    Riddle Sideways: interesting
    Riddle Sideways: the auto-record of 1 hour would miss important stuff
    Fael Illyar: well, the latest idea is to have it stop when no-one is left
    Riddle Sideways: probably best
    Adelene Dawner: If we have one scripted, it can easily keep track of how many people are here.
    Adelene Dawner: And stop when it's really over.
    Gaya Ethaniel: good idea
    Right there would have been a great spot to quit.  We had all reached an end.  BUT, NO...  I had to bring up new stuff when I thought I was summarizing.
    Riddle Sideways: funny thing about words and language
    Riddle Sideways: I have been learning hebrew
    Riddle Sideways: I always thought it was a fixed/static language
    Riddle Sideways: that the torah is the exact same as 2,000 years ago
    Riddle Sideways: but sometimes we dig into just one word
    Riddle Sideways: and it can/could have 5 meanings
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pls give us an example
    Riddle Sideways: I was hooked when we read the first words of genesis
    Riddle Sideways: there is no "the" in the first phrase
    Riddle Sideways: it is more likely to read "In A beginning"
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh... wow that's really interesting
    Adelene Dawner: Neat!
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds like Hinduism in a way
    Riddle Sideways: and from then I on I have really been fastinated by discussing torah words
    Gaya Ethaniel: So Judaism is not linear as I thought... maybe it's cyclicle as 'oriental' religions
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Riddle Sideways: I think very cyclicle
    Riddle Sideways: repeats many things
    Gaya Ethaniel: wow... that's real new to me Riddle thank you
    Riddle Sideways: and how, why and what flavoring the repeatition takes is meaningful
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Riddle Sideways: the hindi scriptures are very simular
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Faenik: ????^^
    Riddle Sideways: in that a sentence can provide a life of meanings
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: cyclicle or even multiple
    Riddle Sideways: often it may sound stupid to repeat yet again that you should not eat of a certain animal
    Riddle Sideways: but the third time it is a little diffent phrasing
    Gaya Ethaniel: how so?
    Riddle Sideways: sorry, that was made up example
    Riddle Sideways: let me think
    Gaya Ethaniel: k
    Riddle Sideways: the 10 commandments are listed 3 very important places
    Riddle Sideways: and each time the adjectives are different
    Adelene Dawner: ?
    conversation often happen this way.  One person uses an example to illustrate their point.  The point is lost, but the conversation goes on about the contents of the example.
    Fael Illyar: speaking of not eating animals, I stopped eating pork because eating it caused noticeable effects that I didn't like.
    Gaya Ethaniel is all ears
    Riddle Sideways: I stopped eating meat as an experiment
    Riddle Sideways: and felt so much more ... alive
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Riddle Sideways: that was over 30 years ago
    Riddle Sideways: I guess I might stick with it
    The same principle works as suggestibility.  At the mention of food, most of us will get hungry.
    Adelene Dawner has now been awake for 3 hours and has not eaten for at least 12 - brb. Getting food.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I am becoming a vegetarian again... since i started meditation again about a month ago... it's not something I consciously decided or i find it repulsive to taste or eating anything like that. I just don't think about eating meat. Is strange
    Gaya Ethaniel: k Adele
    Gaya Ethaniel: I was a veggie a while ago but started eating everythign again when I gave up meditating about 4-5 years ago
    Gaya Ethaniel: What made you to do the experiment I wonder Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: actually, I just wrote the experiment word. I really should have wrote that I realized
    Riddle Sideways: that I had not eaten meat in about a year
    Riddle Sideways: so I might as well call myself a veggie
    Gaya Ethaniel: So... it happened to you naturally as it did to me?
    Riddle Sideways: yes, unconsciently stopped
    Riddle Sideways: it took a long time for conscience mind to see what I was doing
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: What do you think was the trigger now looking back?
    Faenik: ????^^
    Riddle Sideways: I think it might have been that I was living by myself, taking care of myself
    Riddle Sideways: nobody doing it for me
    Riddle Sideways: and I could pick
    Riddle Sideways: my chooses
    Riddle Sideways: I had to face what was my desires
    Riddle Sideways: needs,
    Faenik: ah :)
    Riddle Sideways: and likes, dislikes, beliefs, wishes
    Gaya Ethaniel: So was it 'taste' or 'idea' of eating meat Riddle?

    Sorry Gaya, I never answered you. 
    I have no idea, really.  I awoke one Thanksgiving and realized that I had not eaten meat since the previous Thanksgiving.
    Later, my conscience mind had to relationize.  I made up 5-7 reasons why I was vegitarian.  I would have a plausible reason ready if anybody was to ask me.
    I am reminded of Gen's story in a previous log.  She very calmly KNEW she should get up and exit the all-important exam.  The rest of the log goes on with Gen explaining.
    I KNEW I was now vegitarian, but had to tell my conscienceness. (Gaya: no worries Riddle, I can also see a couple of times not registering what people have said here, including yours, re: your talk on plays. Fael mentions feelings that she gets when she eats pork... that's how I feel especially when I have alcohol.)

    Fael Illyar: That's pretty much how I gave up pork.
    Riddle Sideways: oh, and besides it was the 60's and all us hippies were into alternatives
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: I started realizing a certain heavy feeling was connected to eating pork.
    Riddle Sideways: yes that
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm intrigued how and what made you to realise that you don't want to eat aniamls
    Riddle Sideways: what Fael said
    Gaya Ethaniel: intrigued to know*
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Riddle Sideways: you eat something and know it affected you wrong
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Riddle Sideways: when you start listening, really listening
    Fael Illyar: but sounds like I should make an effort to add a vegetarian dish to my menu to see if I end up giving the other meats up too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes listening to body is quite important to me
    Faenik loves wells!
    Riddle Sideways: I am not pushing you :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: fun to experiment i guess if willing Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: listening to your body is first step
    Riddle Sideways: to listening to others
    Riddle Sideways: and listening to all
    Gaya Ethaniel nods 'soooo true'
    And I guess seeing all too.
    We have all had experiences like Doug's, Cal's and mine.  I hope to hear them all.
    If you are lucky kids, someday I will tell you the wild strawberry story. (Gaya: makes a note here re: the story.)
    Riddle Sideways: think we are back to attachments
    Riddle Sideways: I am not so attached to my body, my mind, me me me
    Fael Illyar: it helps finding your attachments to talk to someone without them :)
    Riddle Sideways: yet not detached either
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: so fully engaged Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: yes, we are
    Riddle Sideways: but we temp lost Adele
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adelene Dawner is nomming chicken, nom nom nom
    Gaya Ethaniel: She's tending to her needs
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Riddle Sideways: we wanted to show her engaged, attached, detacted all at same time
    Gaya Ethaniel nods 'yes Riddle'
    How long can this go on.  Probably should have stopped back there.
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders why she can't add Riddle as a friend
    Fael Illyar: perhaps because he's already on your list?
    Riddle Sideways: oh we are already friends
    Gaya Ethaniel ah.. and tick visible box
    Gaya Ethaniel: Feel free to track me down if online & free Riddle, fascinating talking to you
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) Are you a rabai?
    Riddle Sideways: I usually listen a lot more :)
    Riddle Sideways: only sometimes talk
    Faenik: ????^^
    Adelene Dawner swats Riddle. "Read your log."
    Riddle Sideways: no, not a rabbi
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Adele... you are so funny sometimes
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^^
    Remember Guarians, we need to get PaB into every 10th line.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I love talking to people here. They make me laugh really laugh
    Riddle Sideways: Play to me is all about laughing and well... playing
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: Oh I get it now Riddle thanks for that 'play' has always puzzled me
    Faenik: indeed?
    Riddle Sideways: another silly english word that has 5 meanings
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks 'english language being concise cuts both ways'
    Fael Illyar: all languages have words with multiple meanings :)
    Adelene Dawner looks it up. "Closer to 40 meanings according to the online dictionary." O.O
    Faenik: why not?
    Adelene Dawner: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/play
    Riddle Sideways: earlier I was chating about Plays that I had seen lately
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Riddle Sideways: wow 40
    Gaya Ethaniel: Eng much more concise than Kor in my experience...
    Gaya Ethaniel: wow...
    Fael Illyar: Interesting, I find Japanese to be the most concise language I know of.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... I can't say Fael. My japanese not very good
    Fael Illyar: at least the written form.
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: When I said concise, I mean many meanings behind a word for example. So am I correct to understand that Fael you have found more depth in Japanese words than English?
    Adelene Dawner: You're going to have a heck of a time annotating this, Riddle. 3:20 and what, 10 topics? Something like that?
    Gaya Ethaniel knows at least Japanese words can be ambiguous
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: Well, it could be I'm paying more attention learning Japanese.
    Riddle Sideways: so much fun ahead
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: I've learned Japanese almost entirely by myself
    Fael Illyar: choosing how and what I learn
    Riddle Sideways: very admirable
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: That probably got you thinking more deeply and widely than otherwise taught
    Fael gets us again.
    Fael Illyar: no worshipping damnit :P
    Gaya Ethaniel laughs out loud
    Riddle Sideways: oops
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: But yes, got me thinking more deeply and widely than any courses would have
    Gaya Ethaniel is still laughing
    Fael Illyar: I was mostly reading with a dictionary.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sure
    Riddle Sideways: interesting
    Gaya Ethaniel: I use songs, films and books for learning English other than textbooks at school
    Fael Illyar: Although, a lot of the text I read was also voice acted.
    Gaya Ethaniel: This is also how I approach Japanese or any other languages I learn
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: I find that understanding 'cultural' aspects of a language helps a lot
    Fael Illyar: the real progress with my English started when I wanted to continue reading a book series that I had found translated to Finnish but ... of course, lagging behind the English release by a few years.
    Here is a twist I didn't see coming.  TV, the way to learn proper English?   I would have thought not.
    Gaya Ethaniel now understand English humour after going through numerous TV sitcoms with some initial pain and irritation
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Riddle Sideways: oh dear
    Fael Illyar: Yes, TV shows are one way to do that :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... yea I'm familiar with that. I got sick of bad translation of 'Classics' and started to read them in English
    Fael Illyar: Fansubbed anime was actually my first contact with Japanese :)
    Riddle Sideways: I never thought of that use of TV sitcoms
    Gaya Ethaniel: Fansubbed?
    Riddle Sideways: anime has gotten lots of ppl into japanese
    Fael Illyar: translations made by fans
    Gaya Ethaniel: TV real useful Riddle. Doesn't show the big picture of a country but I've been able to pick up pieces to understanding the picture
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: I just watch in Japanese :P
    Fael Illyar: That's what I've been doing recently ... although, I don't watch all that much anymore.
    Gaya Ethaniel: well I watch same thing over and over... I don't see many that I like often coming up
    Fael Illyar found other things to do with her time.
    Faenik: why not?
    Riddle Sideways: I can imagine watching something and thinking of the USA was about "father knows best" :)
    Gaya Ethaniel still finds things in watching/reading same things again occasionally
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh yea? how so Riddle? Hm... like which programme would do that to me?
    Fael Illyar: I still find I rewatch things very rarely.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I change, my opinions and circumstances change so each time I read/watch a work, something else comes to me Fael and I like that... a lot
    Riddle Sideways: I don't know current sitcoms, but they were mostly dysfunctional american families
    Gaya Ethaniel: Of course, 'True Lies' won't do that :P
    Riddle Sideways: with wackie neighbors
    Gaya Ethaniel: True... Malcolm in the Middle
    Riddle Sideways: I don't know any real family like that
    Gaya Ethaniel: Really?
    Wait, wait, I don't make TV sitcoms.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Then why do you guys make this type of programmes all the time?
    Fael Illyar: It's possible those exist but the social links don't exist between Riddle's family and those.
    Gaya Ethaniel also remembers 'Everyone Hates Chris', 'Simpsons'.... list goes on
    Faenik: ????^^
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is that the case Riddle?
    Ok, you got it.  There are these places, we call them "red states".  That is where the Simpsons, et.al. live.  I do not go there.  And I know nobody there. :D (Gaya: lol - is really enjoying reading/commenting here)
    Adelene Dawner: They're caricatures, I think - I haven't watched TV regularly in years - but the families are over-dramatized in one way or another to make people feel like they're more normal, I think.
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes could be Adele
    Riddle Sideways: yes, real life can't compare to the TV dramazations
    Gaya Ethaniel: Though I have found small grains of truth in them
    Gaya Ethaniel: at least about UK
    Hope there is no UK readers. (Gaya: why not? :P)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Let me think of an example
    Fael Illyar: Well, in any case, a dysfunctional family probably would try to hide the fact to a certain degree.
    Riddle Sideways: mine does :)
    Adelene Dawner: mm-hmm
    Gaya Ethaniel: A lot of TV programmes in UK are rather 'lacey' and a lot of jokes I find distasteful because of sexual connotations attached to them. Eventually I found out it's because English are very supressed ('uptight' French call English) about 'sex'
    Faenik: ????^^
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's universal I think Fael even in Korea
    Gaya Ethaniel: Things like that I piece together watching TV, listening radio
    Adelene Dawner: maybe not universal, but very common.
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes thanks Adele that's what i mean :)
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Starseed enters.
    Starseed Xue: Hello
    Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe I hire you as my translator for PaB sessions Adele
    Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Yeah, right." ;P
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Riddle Sideways: hi Starseed
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo Star
    Starseed Xue: Hi
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles at Adele
    Riddle Sideways: ok, I will rethink about TV's value
    Fael Illyar: Hi Starseed :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: not pushing here Riddle :)
    Starseed Xue: Hi
    Riddle Sideways: lol
    Gaya Ethaniel: :P
    Gaya Ethaniel: How are things Starseed?
    Riddle Sideways: the nice thing about the wiki, is that you all can also add commentaries
    Riddle Sideways: I think I need it today
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Faenik: indeed?
    Fael Illyar wonders why it's necessary to talk about not pushing...
    Gaya Ethaniel: You mean comments at the bottom or within the log?
    Yes, please come back here and edit in more anotations here.
    Gaya Ethaniel: er... mine was a joke referring to Riddle. Riddle why important?
    Fael Illyar: ok, 3 hours 45 minutes :P
    Adelene Dawner: and no sign of stopping! ^.^
    Riddle Sideways: each week I set new length record
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Riddle Sideways: not even Adelene is getting tired
    Adelene Dawner: invigorating, these.
    On SL vs something else.
    Riddle Sideways: your SL is becoming your first life
    Adelene Dawner: gotta remember to eat, though.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adelene Dawner: ^^
    Fael Illyar: Wouldn't surprise me if SL (or something similar) eventually ends up being first life for most people.
    Gaya Ethaniel looks up Riddle's profile 'wow... he's been in SL for a good while'
    Riddle Sideways: but, not active much
    Gaya Ethaniel: ? Fael
    Fael Illyar: although, it's probably more likely that it becomes augmented and part of RL in a way
    Fael Illyar: not constrained to a computer as they're now. Something much more portable will take the place :)
    Adelene Dawner wants a better term than 'Real Life'. She keeps wanting to grumble about how "this *is* real, dammit".
    Gaya Ethaniel: well I've never made this many friends in such short time. At least i know that
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    and then "MeatSpace".
    Adelene Dawner: 'meatspace' is closer, but too derogatory.
    Gaya Ethaniel: lolol
    Fael Illyar smiles at seeing a term she used herself a while ago.
    Gaya Ethaniel looks through her music and finds Floyd's Wall
    Fael Illyar: that is, 'meatspace' :P
    Adelene Dawner: ^^
    Fael Illyar: I suppose we could use FL too
    Adelene Dawner: Better, yes
    Adelene Dawner: Though ranking is less than ideal.
    Riddle Sideways: just Frist Life you tried
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adelene Dawner: That other place has been '*the* world' for so long, it's hard to put boundaries around it or compare it to something else.
    Be assured that not all of us relate educational institutions with meat grinders. :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2n...ducation_music
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well just reminded me of the meat grinder in this piece
    Riddle Sideways: there was a sci-fi that always used the term meatspace, but I can't think of the title
    Gaya Ethaniel: American?
    Riddle Sideways: I think so
    Gaya Ethaniel: Old or recent?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I also think there was but I don't remember the title
    Riddle Sideways: hmmmm recent, I think
    Gaya Ethaniel: Was it firefly?
    Fael Illyar didn't watch firefly
    Riddle Sideways: neither do I
    Gaya Ethaniel: Battlestar?
    Fael Illyar: no cyberspace in BSG
    Gaya Ethaniel: Oh maybe it was Starship Troopers
    Gaya Ethaniel: i give up lol
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meatspace
    Riddle Sideways: maybe BSG, I did watch a lot of those
    Gaya Ethaniel laughs out loud
    Gaya Ethaniel: Look at the first reference 'Does Your Life Suck?' lol
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well no laughing matter really...
    Off we all went to Wikipedia references.
    Adelene Dawner: One of the links from the wikipedia article mentions it being used as early as '89. Wow.
    Gaya Ethaniel suddenly feels ol
    Gaya Ethaniel: old*
    Adelene Dawner was 7 in '89.
    Riddle Sideways: that url article is great
    Fael Illyar: no wonder I'm not remembering hearing many bells today. I keep finding nothing to drop.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Didn't know it was about SL until I opened it
    Faenik: ????^^
    Riddle Sideways: well folks I need to stop this session
    Riddle Sideways: for me at least
    This session must end.
    (Gaya: Riddle exits but it doesn't and continues onto 01:00 PM session... my brain fails completely after the end of an hour long session at 1 PM.)
    Adelene Dawner blinks. "I am out of glue. I used a whole 16-ox thing of Mod Podge in... two weeks?!"
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adelene Dawner: oz, even
    Gaya Ethaniel: Was good to talk to you Riddle. Good day.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Riddle
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Riddle :)
    Fael Illyar: 4 hours and change :)
    Riddle Sideways: this was about the niciest
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: until next time
    Adelene Dawner: Yanno, two more hours and we can brag to the next group... ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel laughs again!
    Riddle Sideways: you keep going Adelene

    And it kept going without Riddle, here's the rest. Feel free to add comments - Fael

    Adelene Dawner: plan to ^.^
    Adelene Dawner opens her backup tub of glue. ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Fael Illyar: glue?
    Adelene Dawner: I craft. If gives me something to do with my hands while I read. Right now, I'm decoupaging boxes. The current one looke really nice.

    Image of glue covered fingers typing the above message.  Image of Adelene's thumb permenently glued to spacebar - Riddle.

    Fael Illyar: Ah, you do things while we talk :)
    Adelene Dawner: yuo
    Adelene Dawner: yup
    Gaya Ethaniel is still reading the article 'life sucks...'
    Fael Illyar: I sometimes tweak a new wing design during meetings
    Fael Illyar: I wonder when I'll decide this one is finished :P
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Fael Illyar: you could say I started it a few months ago but ...
    Fael Illyar: that's not entirely correct
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Fael Illyar: Well, I had nothing remotely like this on my screen until ... perhaps 6 weeks ago.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Astral Scorpion Insignia Beta: Fael Illyar touched your wings.
    Gaya Ethaniel: My activities on my computer were mainly solitary unless I was emailing friends
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or calling parents
    Fael Illyar: I've been on realtime chat systems since 2000
    Faenik: indeed?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... since 94 here
    Gaya Ethaniel: But got bored pretty quick each time
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not this one yet
    Fael Illyar: Well, before SL, I mostly connected with people I knew in SL.
    Fael Illyar: umm RL
    Adelene Dawner: SL's more interactive than the eariler text-based virtual realities.
    Adelene Dawner: Even without other people around
    Gaya Ethaniel: True but I get to talk about stuff that matters to me here, which is different from my previous experiences
    Adelene Dawner: that too
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, you bumped into a community that suits you :)
    Fael Illyar: Like all of us I guess :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Once I start building (learning now slowly), maybe that would add different dimension to my time in SL
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adelene Dawner: Scripting adds even another dimension - you have almost complete control overc your surroundings, once you can build and script.
    Fael Illyar: Yep :)
    Fael Illyar: My wings are a bit more than they might look like :)
    Adelene Dawner: My headpiece and necklace, too. Have you seen me use my notecard reader, Fael?
    Fael Illyar: notecard reader?
    :: I read notecards. If you would like me to read a notecard, please drag it onto me from your inventory.
    Adelene Dawner: Yeah, check out what happens when I put a notecard into my necklace.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is it similar to 'coding'?
    Fael Illyar: Gaya, pretty much
    :: Hand
    :: The hand that points to The Way -
    :: Cherish it, it is of The Way.
    :: The hand that points to that which is not The Way -
    :: Cherish it, it is of The Way.
    :: How can one know The Way,
    :: Without knowing that which is not The Way?
    :: It would be to see the moon,
    :: Without thus seeing the sky.
    Adelene Dawner: or...

    Gaya: Adele then reads out a notecard on Koan, made by Isen.

    :: Koan Definition
    :: Koan
    :: Defined by Steven Heine
    :: “Buddhadharma Magazine” summer 2008
    :: The koan forms the centerpiece of the vast store house of Chinese Chan literature as well as techniques for training, and it is the key to understanding the quixotic utterances and pedagogical puzzles that epitomize the ingenuity and creativity of classic
    :: The term itself, which literally means “public (ko) record (an),” is rooted in the Chinese legal tradition, in which it originally referred to “precedents,” or prior cases that judges sitting on the bench would turn to for guidance in renderin
    :: Koan literature refers to records of encounter dialogues between masters and their rivals and/or disciples, with voluminous prose and poetic commentaries. The koan records were first preserved in dozens of collections created from the eleventh through
    :: Koans, which are often enigmatic and seemingly unsolvable, have been interpreted in numerous ways, some complementary and others conflicting. They include psychological, literary, and ritualistic styles of interpretation, and though these interpretive
    :: There seem to be three main areas of misconceptions about the role of koans that developed in modern studies. First, some early critics who were obviously confused and befuddled by the subtle, contradictory, rhetorical style tended to dismiss koans as
    :: The second misimpression suggests that there has long been a deep divide between Rinzai Zen, which is said to endorse the use of koans, and the Soto school, which emphasizes zazen. However, recent scholarship has shown that this is unfounded. Dogen, t
    :: The third problem is that the D. T. Suzuki-oriented approach has tended to stress the priority of the psychological interpretation, which sees the koan as a way of releasing the mind from its reliance on ordinary logic, thus compelling and completing
    :: It is helpful to supplement the psychological approach by pointing out other factors of significance in the role of koans. First, koans are part of a comprehensive body of Zen literature that incorporates mythical and magical elements influenced by po
    :: Another perspective of Zen koans that is sometimes overlooked is the significance of koans for understanding interpersonal relations. The Zen dialogue is a process of spiritual polishing, or of taking a mind that is rough around the edges and making i
    Gaya Ethaniel: I need to send this to Threedee - Isen made it for me to pass on
    Adelene Dawner: (There's a limit to the length of the lines it can read, so it's better for poetry.)
    Fael Illyar: a bit spammy too :)
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adelene Dawner: Yes.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So scripting is like coding?
    Adelene Dawner: But good to have.
    Adelene Dawner: Scripting pretty much is coding, yes.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I can see it being useful at times yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok so i should be able to do it

    Gaya: so many spring chickens in SL...

    Gaya Ethaniel: though it's been ages since programming 'cobol anyone?'
    Fael Illyar: LSL is what SL uses
    Adelene Dawner: Cobol's earlier than what I learned to program in... you may have some trouble making the jump from that to LSL, Gaya. Feel free to ask me questions if you want.
    Fael Illyar: but since you've programmed before, there is much less barrier to entry to scripting.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... looks like i may crash
    Gaya Ethaniel: k will have a look once i finish learning building basics - one step at a time :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Adele :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel: Seriously lags happening on and off
    Fael Illyar: I can help too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sure Fael you are on my help list. Not easy to get off that list you know :P
    Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, you already mentioned that earlier I guess :)
    Fael Illyar: I don't keep that sort of lists myself though :P
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: Was a joke
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Fael Illyar: So was mine :P
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) :(
    Fael Illyar: can't decide?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hm... good that it was a joke bad that you're teasing me again
    Gaya Ethaniel: well all good in fact
    Fael Illyar: :)

    Gaya: Fael provides us with another topic, her wall. Somehow I get confused over which one of hers as we've been using the word a few times before. And Adele points out Fael and I are not talking plainly enough - sorry Adele.

    Gaya Ethaniel: So please throw in another topic :)
    Fael Illyar: I think I've been sort of scared/uneasy the whole day ... except that it doesn't bother me, most of the time.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... you know what's causing it?
    Fael Illyar: Well, yes, I'm scared for precisely the same reason it doesn't bother me.
    Gaya Ethaniel: pls say more? not sure what you mean
    Fael Illyar: I'm keeping my wall down so I'm having to deal with things differently. In an unfamiliar way.
    Gaya Ethaniel: which wall is that?
    Fael Illyar: still the same wall
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah.. ok
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: Rather interesting, really :P
    Gaya Ethaniel: but you're ok with stuff people telling you that you know already?
    Gaya Ethaniel: you do/know already?*
    Fael Illyar: ok, now you lost me :)
    Gaya Ethaniel goes through the diffents walls she saw in Fael
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... you tell me which one, that'd be better than me typing a few out here
    Fael Illyar: I've only called one thing a wall I think
    Adelene Dawner: ...why am I getting the impression that you two are talking in code?
    Gaya Ethaniel: er... because I am not entirely sure Adele
    Fael Illyar: Oh, sorry :)
    Adelene Dawner: Was more Fael than you, Gaya. And if there's a reason, by all means continue - I'm not offended.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe Fael you could give an example?
    Fael Illyar: I'm talking about a wall that I found last ... Sunday I think.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah i remember
    Gaya Ethaniel: let me have a look at the log again
    Gaya Ethaniel: brb
    Fael Illyar: Basically, I started wondering what is it that sometimes makes me tired when meditating
    Fael Illyar: then instinctively threw a wall down when I went into meditation trying to figure it out.
    Fael Illyar: Since then I've been checking it every exploration and making sure it's down
    Adelene Dawner nods. "Any idea what it is?"
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: going even so far that I was checking every 5 minutes for a while
    Adelene Dawner: I mean, if it was me, and it was coming back as often as every 5 minutes, I'd certainly want to know what it was before I messed with it like that.
    Gaya Ethaniel: back
    Fael Illyar: Well, I've got an overall idea about what it is but not clear enough that it'd be easy to put to words ...
    Adelene Dawner nods. "So long as *you* know."
    Faenik: indeed?
    Fael Illyar: it could very well be my "me/others" distinction or a big part of it.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adelene Dawner: Oh, that'll be neat, than Fael.
    Adelene Dawner: *then
    Fael Illyar: Also it was blocking some self doubt which I had a slight problem with at first.
    Adelene Dawner: mm-hmm
    Fael Illyar: Well, I think it was since I hadn't had unstability like that before I started keeping it down
    Fael Illyar: ... ok, perhaps not a slight problem :P anyway, I had a fast lesson on learning to accept those.
    Fael Illyar: No problems after I consciously directed acceptance for a while.

    Gaya: Threedee enters. Again Adele catches him first. We then move onto 'sleep' then back to Fael's wall. Somehow Threedee knows English weather really well. I'm curious...

    Adelene Dawner: incoming lion
    Fael Illyar: ah, this sort of incoming lion :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: Hi ThreeDee :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: hello, do you folks ever sleep :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: Sleep? what's that?
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Adelene Dawner: Ha! I've been to the last 5 sessions *and* got 8 hours last night.
    Threedee Shepherd: ok, how abpout eat :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: that fifth is still going :P
    Adelene Dawner: (two 4-hour stretches, but hey, more than I usually get)
    Gaya Ethaniel: My insomia disappeared now. Faded away for a few days and now gone!
    Fael Illyar: That's great :)
    Adelene Dawner: I've found I'm just not sleepy. I'm doing fine on 4-5 hours a night.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Threedee Shepherd: I need 9.5 hours per night, based on letting my system "free-run"
    Gaya Ethaniel: wow 9.5... i need 4 - 6
    Adelene Dawner: Based on that, I generally need 9, at least as of a few years ago.
    Fael Illyar tends to sleep 8.
    Threedee Shepherd: until I was about 45 6 worked fine :0 (long ago)
    Fael Illyar: However, I had 9 last night.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I thought people sleep less as get older
    Adelene Dawner: But there's a big difference between that, and how much I can geet by on - I've never really been able to even get by on less than 6, before, for more than a day or so.
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: at times Adele i slept a few hours for a week - very painful
    Fael Illyar: I can get by on around 6 for a few days
    Adelene Dawner: I've been on 4-5 for something like two weeks now, and feeling fine. It's pretty bizarre, actually.
    Threedee Shepherd: What were you about, when I interrupted? :D
    Fael Illyar: but I haven't tried sleeping less than normal lately.
    Gaya Ethaniel: when i meditate, i don't need so much sleep 4-6 is fine. if i let go of meditation, i tend to sleep 8-9
    Fael Illyar: oh right, I was talking about this wall I found recently.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods 'yes Fael'
    Fael Illyar: and how I'm feeling scared/uneasy but it's not bothering me for precisely the same reason that makes me feel scared/uneasy
    Fael Illyar: I mean, I've been feeling this the whole day but I only realized a few minutes ago that I am feeling scared/uneasy
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm still puzzled...
    Threedee Shepherd: where are you right now, physically, home, study, etc?
    Fael Illyar: This is something that has to be experienced :)
    Fael Illyar: Home
    Fael Illyar: my apartment, I live alone
    Fael Illyar: And I've been here the whole day
    Threedee Shepherd: weather?
    Fael Illyar: 21:50 at the moment
    Fael Illyar: half cloudy, slightly chilly.
    Fael Illyar: but not entirely dark outside
    Fael Illyar: close to the midnight sun line :)
    Threedee Shepherd: I ask because weather fronts "moving through" often affect me in subtle ways.
    Threedee Shepherd: scandanavia?
    Fael Illyar: Finland
    Fael Illyar: Helsinki, a bit of a distance from there but not much darkness during summer.
    Faenik: why not?
    Threedee Shepherd: How does the change in the light cycle effect you. I have never experienced it, yet imagine I would become 'disoriented'
    Gaya Ethaniel has SAD and she uses 'bright lights' during winter to supplement sunlight
    Threedee Shepherd: so does my wife
    Fael Illyar: I've never paid much attention to how the light cycle effects me
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've got a cool new alarm/lamp which does sunset too, helps me during summer in UK
    Faenik: could be
    Threedee Shepherd: <aside> you mean the sun DOES break through in the UK sometimes ;D
    Gaya Ethaniel: hee hee hee when it does yes Threedee
    Gaya Ethaniel looks out 'hm... grey and damp again today'
    Threedee Shepherd nods vigorously

    Gaya: Quilty enters. Again Adele pulls him in.

    Adelene Dawner: 'lo Quilty
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi All.
    Threedee Shepherd: hi
    Gaya Ethaniel: So Fael you don't think it's something to do with weather or light
    Gaya Ethaniel: Goodness Adele, let people pass sometimes !
    Threedee Shepherd: sorry, back to the "wall" Fael
    Adelene Dawner: ??
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) thought Quilty came in when you said hello.
    Gaya Ethaniel: a joke really because sometimes people are just passing but get caught by people in the pavillion
    Adelene Dawner did not go out and drag him, yanno.
    Adelene Dawner: ;)
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes. I did. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: Is this a private conversation?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yea i know :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: no Quilty pls join us
    Faenik: why not?
    Quilty Bookmite: TY
    Fael Illyar: Hi Quilty :)
    Quilty Bookmite: hi Fael.
    Adelene Dawner: Believe it or not this is still the 7am discussion. ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Quilty Bookmite: Blimey!
    Adelene Dawner: Yes! ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel: Adele is determined to set a new record Quilty
    Fael Illyar: :P
    Gaya Ethaniel: Btw thanks for letting us know about 'Ananda'
    Fael Illyar: Back to my wall?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes so not really about weather or light?

    Gaya: wonder where Adele gets her energy like this. Doesn't seem like food, she hardly eats anything. Seems that I have found two more kindred spirits here at PaB, Riddle and Threedee.

    Adelene Dawner is feeling goofy and a bit competitive today. Yes, Fael?
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, Pema is likely to show up in an hour I think :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Fael, are there tinges or anticipation, apprehension, both neither, other?
    Quilty Bookmite: And I can;t hang around for that.
    Fael Illyar: I'm pretty sure he'll be excited, surprised, happy and all that :P
    Adelene Dawner: Yanno, Fael, if his pushing gets old, just tell him so. He doesn't bite. ^.^
    Fael Illyar: Pema's?
    Adelene Dawner: Threedee's.
    Fael Illyar: neither apprehension nor anticipation really.
    Fael Illyar: I'm not sure what you mean by tinges
    Gaya Ethaniel: bodily senstation that may come with your feeling uneasy/scared i guess, is that right Threedee?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I guess I've been having those occasionally ... maybe, I haven't been watching everything ... hmmh, maybe that's what this is about. I'm concentrating too much on one aspect.
    Gaya Ethaniel: mental/emotional side of it possibly. could be useful to watch out how your body feels at the same time
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel recalls the previous session re: mind & body
    Fael Illyar: ok, easy "fix" now that I thought of it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: guess this somehow relates back to 'fully engaged' we talked previously with Riddle
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: aware of the whole thing 'Being'
    Fael Illyar exploring new territory sort of.
    Faenik: could be
    ..:: ZYCLOON-Shield 1.0.7 ::..: Sorry, Threedee Shepherd, this is not your shield. Get off!
    ..:: ZYCLOON-Shield 1.0.7 ::..: Sorry, , this is not your shield. Get off!
    Quilty Bookmite: Sorry Threedee.
    Fael Illyar: what was that?
    Threedee Shepherd: sorry, I got flustered :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Quilty Bookmite: A shield. I don;t know how it works yet.
    Fael Illyar: oh
    Fael Illyar: probably something that repels others or something.
    Quilty Bookmite: Possibly. Sorry Threedee. You may have been in range.
    Threedee Shepherd: np
    Quilty Bookmite: I'll behave myself now.
    Faenik: why not?
    Gaya Ethaniel: So... Fael how are you feeling now?
    Fael Illyar: good question :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: describe bodily sensation to begin with?
    Fael Illyar: nothing unusual

    Gaya: while we continue discussing Fael's feelings, Adele triggers the siren at the pavillion out of curiosity... I make a mental note about Adele's sensitivity to noise.

    Adelene Dawner: ...WHY do we have a siren, here?
    Fael Illyar: It
    Quilty Bookmite: Moons idea I think.
    Gaya Ethaniel: so your feelings of uneasiness/scared don't accompany any physical sensations?
    Fael Illyar: It's a joke, Adele :)
    Adelene Dawner: Not a very funny one >.<
    Fael Illyar: Gaya, uneasiness/scared went.
    Quilty Bookmite: No.
    Gaya Ethaniel: does that kind of sound disturb you Adele??
    Gaya Ethaniel: as soon as i try to feel the physical senstations Fael?
    Adelene Dawner: When I'm not expecting it, yes. Even when I am expecting it, actually, but not so much.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... ok something for me to remember
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why did it go off anyway?
    Fael Illyar: Gaya, when I realized why I was feeling scared/uneasy. I changed something.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adelene Dawner: I clicked it - Threedee had IMd me something about how it looked and I was checking it out.
    Fael Illyar: Adele, Pema suggested Sirens, steam and neon to Moon and well, I got pulled in.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... ok
    Fael Illyar: so, I scripted it
    Fael Illyar: well, no steam, but fireworks
    Gaya Ethaniel: So at least you 'saw' the wall and it went. That's great Fael
    Adelene Dawner: Maybe make it so the noise stops when you click it again? That'd be friendlier.
    Fael Illyar: ah right, at the moment it plays the sound for 20 seconds for each click.
    Adelene Dawner: >.@
    Gaya Ethaniel: does that mean 'ouch' Adele?
    Threedee Shepherd: Fael, when the wall went down, is there something you now see on the "other side"
    Adelene Dawner: Something between 'ouch' and 'that is a *horrible* idea'.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'i c'
    Quilty Bookmite: I think Fael is scripting
    Fael Illyar: well, built with the expectation that no-one will click it more than once :P
    Adelene Dawner: Correct assumption, NOW... woulda been nice to stop the pain the first time tho.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel: yeah maybe it should have some sort of indicator to show what it does...
    Fael Illyar: some people like to use it when they want to wake someone up
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes.. i remember...
    Gaya Ethaniel: was a joke yes
    Fael Illyar: ThreeDee, it feels like there is something but ... Well, mostly my sense of where things are when my eyes are closed is somewhat stronger.
    Fael Illyar: no idea if that will help for moving about in dark yet.
    Adelene Dawner: For clarity, Fael - mental things or physical things.
    Adelene Dawner: ?
    Fael Illyar: Well, I don't feel isolated anymore with the wall down.
    Threedee Shepherd smiles
    Fael Illyar: It has been down for most of PaB time but I didn't know how to put it up or down before a few days ago
    Fael Illyar: actually, I don't think I can/want to put it up though
    Adelene Dawner nods
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: No easy way to make it stop the second click it seems.
    Fael Illyar: would need rewriting some things in a more complex way
    Fael Illyar: I could at most prevent adding more time with second clicks easily.
    Adelene Dawner: Add a second state, or a variable that when clicked, if X==TRUE, sound on, if X==FALSE, sound off.
    Faenik loves wells!
    Adelene Dawner: And reset X on a timer after the click.

    Gaya: what Fael said regarding not having a wall between herself and the world reminded me of my encounters in RL today, especially with elderly people. Now this has happened again, it will be likely that certain animals and children that would randomly come up to me next. Not always nice if a huge dog jumps onto me even if it's happy to meet me...

    Fael continues to script the siren, very kind of her while we try to bring her back into conversation.

    Gaya Ethaniel: Funnily I see more and more people smiling at me since I started to experience Being
    Fael Illyar: the sound playing isn't on timer but done with sleeping.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I must appear more friendly without me noticing
    Fael Illyar: nothing goes through while it's playing
    Gaya Ethaniel: friendly, open or maybe even content
    Quilty Bookmite: You are probably more relaxed and confident Gaya.
    Adelene Dawner: Ah. I'll write a new script for it later.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'yes possibly Quilty'
    Quilty Bookmite: People respond to that even without being aware of it.
    Fael Illyar: Well, wouldn't be difficult but :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: More people just come up to me to talk about just stuff
    Fael Illyar: would take me out of talking though
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's a strange yet nice feelings
    Quilty Bookmite: Fael, it's probably not important right now.
    Fael Illyar: Gaya, RL?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes in RL. it's amazing...
    Fael Illyar: Quilty, I reached the same conclusion :)
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: That's a nice change :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Has been always easy for me to make friends in RL only if I want to but this is something completely different
    Quilty Bookmite: When your confidence is low you tend to put up barriers. You don't meet peoples eye and they can't engage with you so readily.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Don't think it's just the confidence issue though
    Quilty Bookmite: No. I'm sure you are right.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Let me think...
    Quilty Bookmite: There is something more but it's harder to define.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Once I get to talk to people, it's easy for me to be friends with them. What i just described is people randomly want to talk to me even if i don't initiate conversations for example
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Whatever it is, I know it's something to do with changes taking place within me last few weeks
    Quilty Bookmite: enjoy it. :-)
    Fael Illyar: People can sense things like that I guess.
    Faenik: why not?
    Gaya Ethaniel: If that's the case Fael, isn't it just amazing?
    Threedee Shepherd: "embodiment" works *both* ways :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it is quite ... well, amazing :)
    Quilty Bookmite: The interconnectedness of all things. :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: perhaps that's what it is
    Gaya Ethaniel: maybe without me knowing, i'm reaching out to these people
    Adelene Dawner returns from having her hands busy crafting, and, um... finding words.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Quilty Bookmite: I think you probably are Gaya.

    Gaya: we then zoom onto 'eye contact' and discuss Adele's experiences in particular. How insensitive some people are... though I can be guilty of that with certain people that I'm fascinated with. Again we find how everything is connected... this topic brings us back to Fael's wall.

    Adelene Dawner: [12:28] Quilty Bookmite: When your confidence is low you tend to put up barriers. You don't meet peoples eye and they can't engage with you so readily.
    Gaya Ethaniel: i didn't mean this to happen Quilty that's also the amazing part
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Adele?
    Adelene Dawner does not make eye contact, in general, in meatspace. Sometimes. On her own terms. Not often.
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh?
    Fael Illyar: Me neither.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I love looking into people's eyes
    Quilty Bookmite: Do you feel you have confidence Adele?
    Adelene Dawner: Yup.
    Gaya Ethaniel: except some group of people - though today this didn't affect me
    Quilty Bookmite: Me too. You learn a lot from peoples eyes.
    Fael Illyar: I tend to only do it if I decide I want to talk to someone.... which is rather rare.
    Adelene Dawner: As I mentioned to Threedee, my reaction to people trying to make eye contact is "*my* eyes, dammit, no, you may not insist that I look at you!"
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: you can look away while i look into your eyes Adele. you have a choice
    Quilty Bookmite: I never insist that someone look at me. :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: though... that defeats the purpose somewhat
    Adelene Dawner: You might be ok with that, Gaya, but many people aren't -they move to try to get that direct eye contact and it's *very* noticable and sometimes forceful.
    Gaya Ethaniel knows what Adele means
    Fael Illyar: unknown people?
    Quilty Bookmite: I guess as a man I don;t feel that threat as keenly.
    Adelene Dawner: Rare from unknowns, more often from people who know me a little but not well enough to know better yet.
    Gaya Ethaniel: depends on the situations / people also I think Quilty whether man or woman
    Fael Illyar: Oh, I don't mind momentary eye contact with people I have had some contact with.
    Quilty Bookmite: Of course.
    Gaya Ethaniel: they just want to know you i guess Adele. I'm surprised to hear that they 'insist' you return the gaze
    Fael Illyar: or at all if I'm talking to someone I guess.
    Adelene Dawner: Momentary, yeah... not my preference but not worth getting riled over. Some people aren't that polite though.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm.. so Fael you also don't like 'eye contacts'?
    Fael Illyar: I don't go to lengths to avoid them
    Fael Illyar: but I rarely keep them for more than a moment
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... well those people who are not sensitive enough for your needs Adele, maybe avoid them?
    Adelene Dawner: My experience is that people who insist on eye contact like that are ... not worth taking the time to try to educate. I've done so a few times and it's never gone well.
    Gaya Ethaniel: how did you try to educate them? by telling them?
    Adelene Dawner: Not usualy by telling them, more often by behavior - it's hard *not* to get noticably flustered by forced eye contact.
    Gaya Ethaniel: people who likes eye contacts tend to be 'direct sorts' and possibly needs direct, ovbious verbal 'education'
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: i c... that could be too subtle for these types of people, well at least me i know
    Adelene Dawner: The getting flustered does work, but those people have always turned out to be pushy and furstrating in other ways too, to the point where I wouldn't wnat anything to do with them based on that.
    Gaya Ethaniel: i am sensitive but at times i get sucked into conversation and may not always notice that i 'stare'
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm hmm
    Gaya Ethaniel: eyes do pull people in strongly, maybe you could be aware of this fact Adele
    Adelene Dawner: yup
    Gaya Ethaniel: as Quilty mentioned, is it something to do with man or woman? or you find this issue with people regardless gender Adele?
    Adelene Dawner: It's an issue for both, but the worst offenders tend to be women.
    Fael Illyar: I do keep more eye contact if I'm talking to someone.
    Adelene Dawner heard Threedee mutter "yeah, for sure"
    Gaya Ethaniel: right... that's interesting... have you thought about why that is Adele?
    Quilty Bookmite: It's also cultural. In some countries eye contact is more acceptable than others.
    Fael Illyar: Although, I'm wondering if this wall I've been keeping down is part of it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: perhaps Fael, quite possible
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Quilty definitely so!
    Adelene Dawner: As I think about it, I suspect that my being female has something to do with it - another manifestation of the competition between women that I've seen before, I think.
    Adelene Dawner: Not everybody has voice, here, yanno, Three.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... i thought more along the line that these females are trying to 'help' you though intrusively
    Gaya Ethaniel: ? not everyone has voice?
    Adelene Dawner: Nope. Usualy just the opposite.
    Adelene Dawner: Threedee keeps muttering, and only you and I can hear him, Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh? to be totally honest why not avoid these people? maybe they are workmates?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... that's why
    Faenik: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: but you typed it up [12:42] Adelene Dawner heard Threedee mutter "yeah, for sure"
    Adelene Dawner: I do avoid them, when possible. One of the worst offenders is a volunteer at my job, so unavoidable.
    Quilty Bookmite: I can't hear Threedee.
    Adelene Dawner: There was one after that, Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... sorry to hear Adele
    Threedee Shepherd: I just turned my microphone off.
    Quilty Bookmite: What do you find threatening about this person?
    Gaya Ethaniel: didn't hear it...
    Adelene Dawner: Just general behavior, Quilty - one of my first interactions with her, she 'trapped' me in one of the halls and asked me to do something that, while not immoral per se, was illegal and a violation of resident privacy (I work in a nursing home) and wouldn't end teh conversation 'till I agreed. She didn't get nasty verbally, but every bit of her body language was threatening. She hasn't been that bad since, but she's never a pleasant person to be around.
    Quilty Bookmite: Sounds lovely. :-)
    Adelene Dawner: >.<
    Gaya Ethaniel: So this person is one of the example of insisting eye contact?
    Adelene Dawner: Yup. The insisting on eye contact was part of the overall threatening-ness.
    Gaya Ethaniel: sounds like the eye contact here signifies aggression rather than understanding...
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes.. Adele diff types of eye contacts
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes Gaya!
    Adelene Dawner: mm-hmm
    Fael Illyar: Hi Avastu :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: that you just need to break off. i normally say 'i'm not feeling comfortable here, can we talk about this a little later' stuff like that then i walk away
    Quilty Bookmite: I would think such a person would talk to you regardless of eye contact.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Avastu.
    Threedee Shepherd: hi
    Gaya Ethaniel: you have to be more assertive. surely with an volunteer you can walk away
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friends
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adelene Dawner: Unfortunately, I have trouble dealing with conversation in meatspace to the point where that breaking-off is nearly impossible - I'm so busy keeping up with what's going on that I don't have enough brainpower left to realize that I have other options besides what's right in front of me.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... of course sorry Adele
    Adelene Dawner: S'ok, Gaya. It's not a common issue to have.
    Gaya Ethaniel: anybody to talk about this that can help you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: well i'd like to talk to you in RL one day - that'd help!
    Gaya Ethaniel plans to visit New York one of these days once 'nough money saved
    Adelene Dawner: Not really. My current job isn't very understanding about the autism. None of my co-workers like the lady, anyway, so my avoiding her as much as possible doesn't look unusual.
    Adelene Dawner: That'd be neat, Gaya. ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... yeah hence the need to move on
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adelene Dawner: mmmm.
    Gaya Ethaniel: hope you find somewhere more understanding soon
    Gaya Ethaniel: however
    Gaya Ethaniel: i know that changing places don't always solve problems
    Adelene Dawner: mm-hmm
    Gaya Ethaniel is thinking...
    Gaya Ethaniel: have you thought about working for a charity?
    Adelene Dawner: I'll be ok. It's being worked on ^.^
    Gaya Ethaniel: cool
    Gaya Ethaniel: man... another session will begin shortly
    Adelene Dawner: 6 hours, woo!

    Gaya: Quilty leave us behind to face another session. Threedee interjects a joke about 'being hurry', a nice touch. As the next session begins, I duck out to the kitchen to grab some food to sustain myself just a little longer...

    Quilty Bookmite: I must go. I didn't intend to stay this long.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ cya Quilty
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for dropping by Quilty
    Fael Illyar: not enough brainpower ... why in so much of a hurry?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good day _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: See you later Quilty :)
    Quilty Bookmite: I'm tired and must go to bed. :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: what hurry Fael?
    Threedee Shepherd: Joke: Guy at rural trainstation is surprised when trail arrives ten minutes early, and remarks as such to the stationmaster. Reply: Nope, that's yesterday's train.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adelene Dawner: Because people don't take well to someone requiring more than a couple of seconds to figure out what they mean. And I don't like people thinking I'm defective.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds like an English train
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... can't help what people think of you though Adele
    Gaya Ethaniel: i hope you can get to a stage where you are not bothered about what people think of you
    Adelene Dawner: Ok, rephrase: If my *boss* starts thinking I'm defective, I lose my job. Starving's not cool.
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks a lot of Adele, she's intelligent, arty farty and real friendly to say a few
    Fael Illyar: Ok, that's sounding more convincing :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: True...
    Faenik: indeed?
    Fael Illyar: Although, I know from personal experience that feeling hurried pretty much halves your brainpower.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Storm :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi storm
    Adelene Dawner: So that 'not liking' is, at least for now, survival-based. Maybe once it isn't I'll be more willing to let it go.
    Storm Nordwind: Hello everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel grabs some food for a sec
    Avastu Maruti:
    Fael Illyar: Hi Doug
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Doug
    Fael Illyar: Hi Gen
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hello Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Threedee!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Doug!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Fael!
    doug Sosa: Hi!
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey everyone!
    Fael Illyar: Hi Adams :)
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Faenik: なるほど^^

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