Page last modified 09:56, 9 Apr 2010 by pema

That morning I (Pema) are the guardian, and I manage to get in exactly on time. Wol was already sitting quietly in the pavilion. After I greated her not much happened for a while since she was afk, which gave me a chance to take my first few bites of breakfast.

Pema Pera: Hi there, Wol!

Wol Euler: hello Pema

Pema Pera: good afternoon!

Wol Euler: I hope you are well, and have slept a few hours?

Pema Pera: sure, I got up at 5 am this morning

Pema Pera: it's 7 am here now, I arrived at the airport of San Francisco half an hour ago

Pema Pera: and stood in the security line for 28 minutes

Wol Euler: oh wow

Pema Pera: so I had 2 minutes to grab coffee

Pema Pera: and 1 bonus minute to start eating my roll while you were afk :)

Wol Euler: ah, well, I hate to come between a man and his appetites.

Pema Pera: it really is inconvenient to eat and type at the same time, but I'm practicing :)

Wol Euler grins

Pema Pera: actually the coffee was the more important of the two :>)

Pema Pera: anyway, on more interesting topics:

Pema Pera: any questions about Being?

Pema Pera: or anything else?

Pema Pera: or observations

Pema Pera: suggestions?

Wol was excited about her new plot on the PaB grounds near the sea.

Wol Euler chuckles. I'm afraid I won't be very sensible company today. I just claimed a wonderful beach plot at Mugunghwa and am full of ideas and visions for it.

Pema Pera: Great!

Wol Euler: Not exactly Being, but in the way of being great fun.

Pema Pera: There is another piece of Mugunghwa that will come up for auction soon

Pema Pera: with some luck we'll acquire that too

Pema Pera: so you'll get even more room for neighbors to settle

Pema Pera: did you start building already ?

Pema Pera: Hi Tahuti!

Tahuti Thor: hello everyone

Wol Euler: lol, yes I did. Architects think visually, by mking models. So I started putting up a few walls on the site, to get a feel of where I want to sit.

Wol Euler: hello Tahuti.

Tahuti Thor: hi Pema

Tahuti Thor: hi Euler

Tahuti entered, and I mentioned Wol's (slowly and gently) flying sofa.

Wol Euler: very crude, very preliminary.

Pema Pera: Are you going to offer your flying sofa there too, for visitors to take a tour of the area?

Wol Euler: oooh! hehehe

Wol Euler: there's an idea.

Pema Pera: (what you learn about your friends by reading blogs!)

Wol Euler laughs. That#s why it is there.

Wol Euler: (ght blog)

Pema Pera: Tahuti, Wol was talking about her new plot of land near the beach

Wol Euler: "ght"? dear gods, even for me that is lousy typing >:(

Pema Pera was wondering what that abbreviation could mean . . . .

Wol Euler blushes to confess that it is a misspelling of "the"

Pema Pera: !

Wol Euler cringes for shame.

Pema Pera caught up in very long laaaaag

Tahuti Thor: ok

Wol Euler: Pema, you are mid-airport? Will you have to pack and run (fly)?

Tahuti Thor: SL land?

Tahuti Thor: or RL

Pema Pera: somehow the new viewer seems to freeze my Mac even longer than the old one, for like twenty seconds or longer, no matter what settings I tried . . . .

Pema Pera: oh no, Wol, I'm fine

Pema Pera: I'm in an airport lounge, very comfortable, and I have more than an hour

Pema Pera: I got early to be here in time for my guardian duties :)

Wol Euler: ah :)

Pema Pera: otherwise I would have gotten up at 6 instead of 5 :)

Pema Pera: SL land, Tahuti

Tahuti Thor: k

Wol Euler: oh, sorry, I missed your question somehow.

I turned to another episode on the PaB blog.

Pema Pera: Tahuti, a couple days ago you mentioned something about PaB explorations, and doing meditation correctly

Pema Pera: that is a very interesting topic

Pema Pera: on the one hand, what we are doing could be called a form of meditation

Pema Pera: there are certainly similarities

Pema Pera: but we do not have any specific form or style

Pema Pera: so unlike, say, zen meditation, there is no "correct" way to do it, strictly speaking

Pema Pera: though we can of course make suggestions, helping and inspiring each other

Tahuti Thor: hmmm

Tahuti Thor: how do others conceive meditation?

Pema Pera: which others?

Tahuti Thor: in PaB

Tahuti Thor: since u said there is no correct way

Pema Pera: everyone has there own ideas and experiences I think

Pema Pera: we do not present one particular style or tradition

Pema Pera: anyone is free to bring their own, and combine it in whatever way they like with what we are talking about

Pema Pera: this is more a forum for exploration, not a school or teaching ground

Wol Euler nods. Though a lot of learning does take place :-)

Pema Pera: I like to view life as a lab

Pema Pera: and this is one place where I like to explore that

Pema Pera: a lab is different from a class room

Pema Pera: some people here have no interest in meditation at all, which is fine

Pema Pera: they just like to pause regularly and look around

Pema Pera: view the world, themselves, others

Tahuti Thor: so, everyone has their own meditation style or none at all and we all sit and contemplate Reality or Being ?

Pema Pera: what connects us is that we all see the merit of regularly pausing, like once every 15 minutes for 9 sec, or whatever you like

Pema Pera: and then to talk about what we find, four times a day, however often we like to come in

Pema Pera: everything else depends on the individual

Pema Pera: there is a great sense of community

Wol Euler nods

Pema Pera: comparing notes, ideas, experiences, questions

Pema Pera: very free from, but very serious too

Tahuti Thor: what we find within?

Wol Euler: to answer the question as you asked it, Tahuti, people tend to meditate (whatever that means) elsewhere, and ccome here to discuss what arose.

Wol Euler: exactly

Tahuti Thor: if they are feeling sick within, they talk about that?

Tahuti Thor: feeling worried, talk about that?

Wol Euler: yes, about why and wherefore, how it arose,, what effect it has, perhaps what to do about it or with it.

I pointed to a specific previous session, two days earlier.

Pema Pera: btw, Tahuti, I read your conversation with Caledonia and Fael, on http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/enough-about-me/ two days ago

Tahuti Thor: so the goal of every mood and felt experience is independent for each case and individual?

Pema Pera: and I saw that you disagreed with what Caledonia described about her imagination, saying it was dangerous and done in the wrong way, if I understood you correctly, can you say a bit more about that?

Pema Pera: as for goal, I'm not sure whether a mood has a goal . . . .

Wol Euler reads, that sounds fascinating.

Pema Pera: 2/3 down the blog page

Wol Euler: ty

I quoted three lines from the blog: by Tahuti, by Caledonia, and by Tahuti.

Pema Pera: Tahuti Thor: u should jus keep meditating and not think bout things too much

Caledonia Heron: I think imagination is fabulous

Tahuti Thor: no it can mislead

Pema Pera: (quote from blog)

Tahuti Thor: i dont see how u can see in the moment when u have vivid imagnations circling around

Pema Pera: sorry, can you say more? I did not understand the comment

Tahuti Thor: so......are we sharing whatever it is in our mind to everyone -- sickness, imagining, memories, worries, etc. ?

Pema Pera: we share whatever we feel is good to share -- it is different for each individual

Pema Pera: we have no rules

Tahuti Thor: so there is no objective ....only to share our experiences with each other

Pema Pera: well, yes and no

Wol Euler considers that a fine objective in itself btw

Pema Pera: no specific objective in terms of what we have

Pema Pera: but there is a kind of objective: to drop identification with what we have, and to learn to see what we are

Pema Pera: just a sec -- let me get another cup of RL coffee -- brb

Wol Euler: heheheh

Pema Pera: back!

Pema Pera: I love the SL coffee too, but not as effective early in the morning . . . .

I wanted to make sure that my description of PaB did not come across as a lack of respect for the value of any particular approach, such as Tahuti's way of practicing zen.

Pema Pera: I think I understand your concern for correct style and focus on the essence of zen meditation, Tahuti, and I very much respect that

Wol Euler: I'm new at this, and have to admit that I don't follow all the exercises, but I would say that these meetings have become a valuable association to me

Wol Euler: There are many Zennies here :-) but most of us are not, nor are looking to become.

Pema Pera: if you follow that particular style, it can be very effective, just to ignore all distractions and go all out, but that is not the only way.

Pema Pera: I am happy to compare your way with that of others -- I have explored many ways myself in the last 38 years, including weeks-long retreats in zen meditation as well as Tibetan Buddhist, etc styles

Pema Pera: but we are here to compare, not to criticize others

Pema Pera: but of course we can make suggestions

Tahuti Thor: your free to entertain the thoughts u want to entertain in any practice or style

Pema Pera: especially when we are concerned that others may not be very effective in their own way -- then we can certainly offer suggestions

Pema Pera: I am glad I am free to entertain my thoughts, Tahuti. Thank you :-)

Tahuti Thor: :)

Wol Euler: no criticism was implied, Tahuti. I thought you were asking from that standpoint, in relation to that practice, so I tried to answer in what I thought was your direction.

Pema Pera: but seriously, Tahuti, I have deep respect for zen. And I love that approach. I learned an enormous amount from doing it. But I don't think one tool fits all circumstances for all people

Pema Pera: Perhaps you can say something about how zen helped you?

Pema Pera: what you found?

Tahuti Thor: i dont get it - we are bundle of thoughts, feelings, and emotions ...and u choose to entertain whatever thought,feeling, and emotion u like

Tahuti Thor: what is there to be known exactly?

Tahuti Thor: vipassana? @ Pema

Wol Euler: not exactly, we choose to try to see what we are thinking and feeling, and to discover why we do.

Wol Euler: why do we become angry at someone rather than shrugging it off? What is the _reason_ for it?

I would have liked to say something about Vipassana, another approach which at first glance may seem rather different from the zen approach. In Vipassana, we are told to just watch whatever thought or emotion or anything else comes up in awareness and let it go. In Zen we are told to let the mind rest as it is, without being distracted by whatever comes up. But in fact, when you try to do either technique, you will find that the similarities are larger than the differences. In Vipassana, if attention becomes too keen, you may have trouble with the letting go. In Zen, when you focus too intentionally on resting in the natural state, you may find yourself trying to suppress mental stirrings. In both cases, a good balance requires both not suppressing and not holding on.

However, rather than getting into all this, I felt it might be better to tell a story, to convey a simple flavor rather than to argue through too many explanations.

Pema Pera: May I tell a little anecdote?

I am 55 now. I started meditation when I was 17.

Pema Pera: When I was 28, I went to my first weekend workshop in a Tibetan Institute, after having done only zen meditation so far. I reacted in a way that was quite similar to the way you react; I remember very vividly!

Pema Pera: I was shocked and appalled

Pema Pera: people talked about their experiences! omg . . . . I had learned in zen that that was an absolute nono

Pema Pera: I was shocked that the head lama, Tarthang Tulku, in Berkeley, who had written such a wonderful book called Time Space Knowledge, would allow such a thing to go on

Pema Pera: it seemed so totally wrong

Pema Pera: but then during a break I walked out into the garden, and say a huge prayer wheel

Pema Pera: with an explanation signed also by Tarthang Tulku, about how the myriad rotations of that wheel had a wonderful effect on the world (with detailed calculations of how many rotations a sec, a day)

Pema Pera: and that in turn seemed so utterly ridiculous and superstitious that in comparison people talking about their experiences seemed quite normal and benign

Pema Pera: so I went back into the room after the break

Pema Pera: had considered leaving before

Pema Pera: but now I listened to what people actually said

Wol Euler smiles

Pema Pera: setting aside my prejudice -- still in shock about that crazy wheel

Pema Pera: and I listened

Pema Pera: and I began to understand

Pema Pera: those people *also* had a way

Pema Pera: a fascinating way, different, but also valid

Pema Pera: that was a life-changing experience for me, Christmas day 1980 . . . .

Pema Pera: To answer your question, Tahuti, of what there is to be known:

Pema Pera: I think what is most important is to let go of what we identify with

Pema Pera: not to add knowledge

Pema Pera: but to subtract, to drop, to let go of what we have, to see what we are

Pema Pera: and zen is one very wonderful approach to do that

Pema Pera: for sure

Tahuti Thor: to watch the movie screen without identifying with the objects?

Pema Pera: yes, that is a nice metaphor!

Wol Euler: :-)

Pema Pera: Hi Steve!

Wol Euler: hello Steve

stevenaia Michinaga: hello

Tahuti Thor: hi Steve

Steve dropped by, and expressed his delight at meeting new fellow PaB participants he had `met' already through reading the blog, but not yet in (avatar) person. After Steve, Avastu arrived as well.

stevenaia Michinaga: nice to meet you Wol and Tah, I've read much of what you have said

Tahuti Thor: nice to meet you :)

Pema Pera: actually, Tahuti, I feel quite humble, telling you this, remembering that I myself at age 28 would have been fighting this Pema Pera character tooth and nail :) -- you know, one thing we can do is reverse roles, you defend my position and I defend your position. Perhaps we can learn a lot that way, checking thereby whether we really understand the other -- would you be game, to do that?

Wol Euler: hello Avastu

Pema Pera: Hi Avastu!

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Avastu

Avastu Maruti: hello my friends

Tahuti Thor: im a little lost now

Tahuti Thor: maybe ill sit back for few sessions and just watch

Pema Pera: that's fine too, there is no rush!

Pema Pera: Avastu, we were comparing notes about expectations of how to meditate and how to explore reality in general

stevenaia Michinaga: I have been here since April and much of what I do is listen

Pema Pera: Tahuti prefers a more strict zen style, which is great and very much worth while, and I mentioned how PaB is more free form. After a while, I suggested to reverse roles: Tahuti defending a more free-form style and me defending a more strict style. By swapping roles, we can see in the other to what extent the other understands what we tried to say, by seeing how well the other can act out our own position.

Pema Pera: no rush of course

Pema Pera: and only if Tahuti would like to do that

Avastu Maruti: The suggestion might also be to notice if meditation isn't always happening

Pema Pera: yes!

Wol Euler smiles. The dog that didn't bark.

stevenaia Michinaga: there is an interesting graphic's "game" that people that draw play , usually when they are bored at meetings, one person starts a drawing and then thye are handed off to the next person who continues the drawings, eventually amazing things result

Pema Pera: ah, yes, we can do that too

stevenaia Michinaga: another version of defending anothers position by changing and adding to it

Pema Pera: make up new exploration styles that way

Pema Pera: wish I had time now

Pema Pera: but I am watching the clock

Pema Pera: better not miss my plane

Wol Euler: yes, it's time! off you go.

stevenaia Michinaga: wish we could share a drawing here

Yes, sharing drawings, or having a common black board would be great; there are virtuals worlds, like Qwaq where you can do just that. It might be possible in some way in Second Life, but not as a straightforwardly provided standard tool, like in Qwaq.

Pema Pera: Tahuti, I hope you didn't mind me being so direct

Pema Pera: I very much appreciate you telling us about your style and experiences

Tahuti Thor: no, dont mind

Pema Pera: and I look forward to hear more!

Tahuti Thor: still a lil lost as to what we are actually doin..........or what we are trying to accomplish

Pema Pera: Steve, or whoever stays here longest, can you email me the chatlog? Or add to the wiki after I put my part up? Whatever is easiest (emailing might be easiest)

Pema Pera: ah, Tahuti, thanks for asking!

Pema Pera: I could explain it in many ways, but if I may talk in "zen language"

Pema Pera: I would say: many great zen masters spent 5 to 10 years practicing until they got an amazing realization

Pema Pera: but then instead of teaching, they spent another 20 years or so continuing to practice

Pema Pera: in order to integrate their fabulous insights into the marrow of their bones, in every daily life detail

Pema Pera: only then did they consider themselves worthy to teach

Pema Pera: and this has been a general pattern: meditate for many years

Pema Pera: till a great insight opens

Pema Pera: then work on integration into your life for even more years

Pema Pera: now modern life does not seem to give people the chance to easily meditate for many years many hours a day

Pema Pera: so it seems like we would NEVER get to the point of realization let alone integration

Pema Pera: so . . . . . what to do?

Pema Pera: well. . . . . if we look at what those zen masters did, at what we *think* they did

Pema Pera: work very hard to get enlightened

Pema Pera: then there would be no hope for us whatsoever -- end of story

Pema Pera: but if we look at what those zen masters *said* they actually did

Pema Pera: that is a whole different story: they say that they tried very hard

Pema Pera: and then they laughed and laughed, realizing at the moment of breakthrough that there was nothing to get

Pema Pera: nothing to learn

Pema Pera: that reality had been staring them in the face all along

Pema Pera: that the notion of "getting" enlightenment was totally wrong

Pema Pera: YET of course this does not mean that you can sit back and give up

Pema Pera: that would be the wrong conclusion

Wol Euler: (Picasso said something similar about learning to paint: the hard part was forgetting what he'd been taught.)

Pema Pera: BUT it does mean that we can look differently at what it is we are trying to do -- indeed, Wol, nice example!

Pema Pera: SO: what we do here is reverse the order

Pema Pera: first integration and then meditation

Pema Pera: (if you retell the PaB story in zen language, only one of many translations of PaB into other languages)

Pema Pera: so we start integrating into our life whatever we may find in our 9-sec explorations

Pema Pera: right at the very moment we start them

Pema Pera: trading duration for frequency

Pema Pera: trading great effort at reaching and getting for integrating what is already here

Pema Pera: as Avastu said so nicely

Pema Pera: sorry to talk so long -- but I wanted to give a precise answer to you important question, Tahuti

I appreciated Steve's way of expression concern about my flight by expressing a lack of concern :-).

stevenaia Michinaga: I'm sure they will hold your flight for you

Pema Pera: of course!

Pema Pera: for at least 9 more seconds!

Tahuti Thor: :)

Pema Pera: (I always take lots of slack . . . )

Wol Euler grins and shakes her head.

Pema Pera: Tahuti, I look forward to coming back to this -- I know what I just said sounds crazy, putting the cart before the horse

Pema Pera: putting integration before meditation

Pema Pera: but let's try and see

Pema Pera: the proof is in the pudding

Pema Pera: from the fruits we can judge the tree

Pema Pera: let's see what kinds of fruit PaB will bear

Pema Pera: so far so good, I'd say, judging from others' reactions

Tahuti Thor: i think i understand you..........that we take their conclusion for granted......and we just go ahead and integrate our explorations into our daily lives

Pema Pera: yes

Pema Pera: Caledonia once said:

Pema Pera: "fake it to make it"

Pema Pera: a very down-to-earth way to summarize it all

Pema Pera: playing as Being

Pema Pera: fake as if we already are Being

Wol Euler nods

Pema Pera: play as if

Pema Pera: and perhaps Being will smile and show Herself

Tahuti Thor: :)

Pema Pera: if it is really true that we are already Being

Pema Pera: then Being is playing us playing Being -- and then we can shortcircuit, letting Being play Being with us stepping out of the way

stevenaia Michinaga: I must return to Rl, see you soon

Pema Pera: bye Steve!

Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend

Wol Euler: bye steve

Tahuti Thor: :)

Pema Pera: well, by now I do have to go . . . :) Again sorry to be so talkative -- next time I'll listen more (^_^)

Wol Euler prods Pema. Go fly.

Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend

Wol Euler: bye! happy landings

Tahuti Thor: k , bye Pema

Tahuti Thor: ty for the discussion

Pema Pera: bye everybody, this was a great chat, I enjoyed it very much!

Pema Pera: And let me add again, Tahuti, that I deeply respect your dedication to your practice, an example for all of us!

Pema Pera: see you all later

After I left, Tahuti and Wol continued their conversation, with Avastu first listening quietly and later joining in as well. Wol later sent me the chat log, which I am appending here.

Tahuti Thor: thank u

Tahuti Thor: take care

Wol Euler: Pema's enthusiasm is delightful.

Tahuti Thor: yes

Tahuti Thor: there might be a hole in it

Wol Euler shrugs. Life has many holes in it. We try to find plugs. Perhaps PaB is a plug.

Tahuti Thor: in this approach

Tahuti Thor: with enlightenement comes understanding

Tahuti Thor: and understanding is personal and individual - it is private

Wol Euler: one of the goals that I hope for from PaB, personally, is to open myself to that possibility of understanding.

Wol Euler: To find what stands in my way, and remove it -- or walk around it.

Tahuti Thor: :)

Wol Euler: (so to speak, I have a very visual understanding of the world)

Tahuti Thor: i do like the fact that everyone from around the world is sharin their experiences

Tahuti Thor: it sheds light on how much we are similar

Wol Euler nods. yes, very much so

Tahuti Thor: even tho like on the television they give an impression that we are different or more different

Tahuti Thor: than what we really are

Wol Euler nods again. It helps them sell things :-) "Buy one of these so pople will think you are an X"

Wol Euler: they hve to invent an X which is different from other people!

Tahuti Thor: or i might of commiited a fallacy in my reasoning lol

Wol Euler: lol

Tahuti Thor: it might be the case that similar people do meet at PaB

Tahuti Thor: lol

Wol Euler: Tahuti, the risk is always there, as long as we live

Tahuti Thor: yea the risk is there lol

Wol Euler: because we don't see the world, we see a tiny bit of it and filter it through our imperfect understanding.

Wol Euler: we don't see other people, but our interpretation of what they think, who they are, what they meant just then.

Wol Euler: I see maybe 1% of 1% of you, most of your time -- even your time in SL -- is spent far away from me

Tahuti Thor: u think for the Buddha same limitation?

Wol Euler: Oh yes. the buddha made at least one mistake :-)

Wol Euler: even after he achieved enlightenment

Wol Euler grins

Tahuti Thor: what passage

Wol Euler: when he declared that his sister could not join the monks, because women are incapable.

Tahuti Thor: o ok - i remem that

Wol Euler: She returned many times, and finally he relented and declared that women could be monks after all.

Wol Euler: One of those two statements is wrong :-)

Wol Euler: which is fine!

Wol Euler: really!

Tahuti Thor: maybe it wasnt the right time for women to be monks

Tahuti Thor: maybe the situation or circumstances were not ripe

Wol Euler: it's wonderful that Buddha too was human! It makes his enlightenment even more worthy, more impressive.

Tahuti Thor: yes :)

Wol Euler: I salute his mistake, and I greatly admire his having the courage to admit it, and having the strength to change his statement. Truly!

Wol Euler: It takes guts to say "I was wrong." many people would rather die (literally) than do so.

Wol Euler: ping! Tahuti crashes in mid-sentence. Ah well.

Wol Euler: Avastu?

Avastu Maruti: yes,my friend

Wol Euler: ah, you are here :-) you have been very quiet -- though we hardly gave you a chance.

Tahuti Thor: cord slipped

Wol Euler: wb tahuti

Tahuti Thor: ty

Tahuti Thor: bet if i google it , there will be buddhist fanatics that proclaim buddha didnt make a mistake there

Tahuti Thor: lol

Wol Euler: of course!

Wol Euler: I would not bet a quarter of a penny against you

Tahuti Thor: someone sent me message that Bernie Mac died

Wol Euler: who is that?

Tahuti Thor: he was comedian

Tahuti Thor: maybe u know his face

Tahuti Thor: u from united states?

Wol Euler: ah, no. English, living in GErmany.

Tahuti Thor: o thats why

Tahuti Thor: well here is picture and story

Tahuti Thor: http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-bernie-mac-dead,0,995933.story

Avastu Maruti gave you Buddhist Heart Sutra.

Wol Euler: ty

Wol Euler: ty squared :-)

Tahuti Thor: Avastu

Avastu Maruti: yes my friend

Tahuti Thor: thats nice attire

Tahuti Thor: where can i find a robe to wear on SL

Avastu Maruti: I believe Ryusho Ort has a little place not far from here

Wol Euler: actually, there is a store quite near here.

Wol Euler: snap :-)

Wol Euler: just, um, north of here?

Wol Euler: Avastu, do you hvae the LM?

Tahuti Thor: free attire?

Wol Euler: mm, IIRC not free, $200 or so. Maybe some is freee too

Avastu Maruti: no - but you can find it easily if you walk north

Wol Euler: yes, thtat's right, there is a center there with a tower etc, it's near that.

Tahuti Thor: ok, ty

Avastu Maruti: do you have any L$?

Tahuti Thor: L$5

Tahuti Thor: i dont understand the concept of money on here

Wol Euler: :-)

Avastu Maruti: good bye for now, my friends

Wol Euler: not too different to RL, it comes and goes.

Wol Euler: bye avastu

Tahuti Thor: bye avastu

Wol Euler: Do you have a paypal account?

Tahuti Thor: thank u

Wol Euler: that is thte easiest way, just buy L$ with real world money.

Tahuti Thor: its real money?

Wol Euler: you can use real money from your paypal acct to buy Linden $$, which you can spend on things here, like robes for instance :-)

Wol Euler: real enough in here oh yes.

Wol Euler: I personally know three designers who have closed their real-life studios. They earn their RL income here in SL!

Wol Euler: I'd call that real money :-)

Wol Euler: there are other ways to get money here, of course. Camping is easy but very dull!

Wol Euler: people pay you to sit in their store or mall, because it makes the place look popular.

Tahuti Thor: really?

Wol Euler: that typically pays L$1 per ten minutes or so.

Tahuti Thor: haha

Wol Euler: well, many people do it. But it is really boring unless you can do it with a friend, and talk.

Tahuti Thor: how do they transfer the SL money into RL money?

Wol Euler: easy, there is a currency exchange :-)

Wol Euler: Linden dollars are quoted on internet financial-services pages! it is a real currency.

Tahuti Thor: wow

Wol Euler: I was amazed to find out, yeah.

Tahuti Thor: so people actually make a living on here?

Wol Euler: some do. About 450 people earn at least US$2000 per month here in SL. They could quit their RL jobs if they wanted.

Tahuti Thor: lol

Tahuti Thor: wow

Wol Euler: yep

Wol Euler: but it takes skill and luck and an awful lot of effort to get into that positoin.

Wol Euler: Building up a brand of products or services that people really, REALLY want to have.

Wol Euler: just like RL, really ...

Wol Euler: me, I just buy money from paypal :-) comes direct out of my bank account, no worries.

Tahuti Thor: ok

Wol Euler: if you're interested, there is a page about it in the SL website, in their "knowledgebase", which describes what you do to set this up.

Wol Euler: it's easy, I did it in an hour.

Tahuti Thor: ok

Wol Euler: looking for it ...

Tahuti Thor: so this second life is bigger than i thought

Wol Euler: huge in fact. it has a daily turnover of around 1 to 2 million US dollars.

Wol Euler: mostly residents paying other residents.

Wol Euler: rent or services or robes :-)

Tahuti Thor: interesting

Wol Euler: https://secure-web6.secondlife.com/currency/index.php?lang=en

Wol Euler: that's the page about buying L$. you wqill need to log in with your SL identity to see it.

Tahuti Thor: k

Tahuti Thor: ok ill read more about this stuff

Wol Euler: actually, it appears I was wrong. here is no single page which actually describes the process from start to finish, sorry. I was combining things in my head.

Tahuti Thor: k

Wol Euler: 1) get an e-mail account (easy)

Wol Euler: 2) using that, get a paypal account

Wol Euler: 3) once you have that, log in to the SL website and go to your Account Summary

Wol Euler: 4) there, find the "Update Payment Method" page, and tell them the name of your paypal account.

Wol Euler: 5) that's all! :-)

Tahuti Thor: o i c

Wol Euler: there, that'll get you started. Go buy a robe :-)

Tahuti Thor: :)

Tahuti Thor: ty

Wol Euler: yw

Wol Euler: and in about six months, when you are an old hand and know all this stuff, and somebody asks you about money, pass on the good will.

Tahuti Thor: will do :)

Wol Euler: it's called "paying forward". Be the improvement that you would like to see.

Wol Euler smiles

Tahuti Thor: yes :)

Tahuti Thor: u know that PlayStation is coming out with something similar

Tahuti Thor: wonder if they will connect there program to secondlife

Wol Euler: no, I hadn'T heard. I would be very surprised, actually, if the PS had the graphics processing power to present something like this.

Wol Euler: well, htere are moves afoot. Had you ehard that SL now links to IBM's open grid 3d world?

Wol Euler: avs can move between them!

Wol Euler: (but not clothes or attachments or inventory or money -- yet)

Tahuti Thor: havent heard

Tahuti Thor: i dunno 90% of whats goes on here

Tahuti Thor: lol

Wol Euler: do you know the SL blog? worth reading, many reports of intersting stuff there.

Wol Euler: it's in hte "help" menu

Wol Euler: and it has a RSS feed, if you use a reader.

Wol Euler: Anyway, it is getting late. I have to go downtown shopping before the stores close.

Wol Euler: It#s been a grand discussion, Tahuti. thank you.

Tahuti Thor: ok

Tahuti Thor: talk to u later

Wol Euler: go, go buy a robe :-)

Wol Euler: bye for now.

Tahuti Thor: k

Tahuti Thor: bye :)

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