2008.10.11 19:00 - Coercive vs. Compelling

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    Stim was the guardian on call that evening. He sent me, Pema, the chat log. I added the title and put up the log.

    Stim Morane: Hi Mongo
    Stim Morane: Hi Adelene and Threedee
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi folks,
    Mongo McGinnis: sorry was away what is up
    Stim Morane: Nothing yet ...
    doug Sosa: hi all.
    Stim Morane: Hi Doug
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    doug Sosa: my screen is set wrong so i may seem a bit spastic.
    Stim Morane: Oh, OK Doug.
    Stim Morane: Well, is there a topic running here in PaB these days?
    Mongo McGinnis: distracted tonight have baseball on wife into baseball
    Stim Morane: Interesting.
    Threedee Shepherd: Boston?
    Mongo McGinnis: 6 to 5 red sox over rays
    Mongo McGinnis: 5th top
    Mongo McGinnis: i could tell you a couple of funny stories where people gave us looks
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ Love to you, Avastu.
    Stim Morane: Hi Avastu!
    Avastu Maruti: love to you my friends
    Stim Morane: might as well see you all ...
    Threedee Shepherd: and to you, Avastu
    Mongo McGinnis: a teacher Avastu cool
    Mongo McGinnis: keep me on my toes
    doug Sosa: ballet!
    Mongo McGinnis: an expression no ballet yuck
    Stim Morane: :)
    doug Sosa: ?
    Stim Morane: I hope one of you has a topic to discuss. I am not sufficiently oriented re PaB to know what fits here.
    Mongo McGinnis: V^v^.:HowwwlzzZ:.^v^V
    Mongo McGinnis: same ere
    Mongo McGinnis: same here
    doug Sosa: no topic necessary. better a piece of experience, some moment of awareness during the day. I am jet lagged from 30 hours of travel from milan to san francisco. some experience!
    Stim Morane: 30 hours?
    Adelene Dawner: Yikes, Doug.
    Threedee Shepherd: oh dear, Doug!
    doug Sosa: well, rome to milan to philadelphia and five hour lay over and sf and three hours to home..
    Mongo McGinnis: ouch
    doug Sosa: but jet lag is interesting. Mind is much and tight at the same time.
    Threedee Shepherd: beats sailing ships, though ;)
    doug Sosa: much should be mush.
    Threedee Shepherd: or "much mush"
    doug Sosa: that's it.
    doug Sosa: Never consider a boat., let's see 80 days around the world, so half would be forty days?
    Threedee Shepherd chuckles
    doug Sosa: In italy spent three weeks painting old medieval villages.
    Threedee Shepherd: for fun, I assume?
    doug Sosa: Well, tey were the wrong color. look better now.
    Mongo McGinnis: lets see the circumfuranse at the equator is about 25,00 miles divided by 80
    doug Sosa: don't take the equaater. its the longest way.
    Mongo McGinnis: i dont know what a meter is
    Mongo McGinnis: yes
    doug Sosa: actually the painting was the learn how to do quick outdoor watercoors.
    doug Sosa: slow down doug, type better!
    Threedee Shepherd: Hardly need to go to Milan JUST for that ??
    doug Sosa: a meter is twice around a laptop computer screen.
    doug Sosa: well, if you want narrow alleys and roman stone roads..
    Threedee Shepherd: Doug, how dis expression with paint differ from expression with words?
    Mongo McGinnis: dpend on your screen 12 15 17 21 or do you hook it up to your hd tv which could be bigger
    doug Sosa: 10. words and paint. two universes. very intresting for PaB.
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, which is *why* I asked :)
    doug Sosa: paint has a much bigger effect on vision and memory. a quick painting seen years later brings back the whole scene and much with it.
    Threedee Shepherd: Yup, primates were visual animals LOOOG before they got wordy ;D
    Threedee Shepherd: LOOOONG
    doug Sosa: and the seeing has to go thorugh the eye to the heart and then the hand.
    Mongo McGinnis: wish i could paint but failed in high school only c+ i got there
    Adelene Dawner: Trehh - we were talking about talking-from vs. putting-words-around last night; painting is a form of talking-from, and in some ways a more useful version of that than speech is. ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: *Three :P
    Threedee Shepherd: Why is painting not putting colors around?
    doug Sosa: no grades for painting. what you can do is just that, you can change it but it should not be graded. A child's painting is wonderful inways adults cannot capture or reproduce.
    Threedee Shepherd: unless you are taking anart course at University in painting
    Adelene Dawner: um o.O Painting isn't graphing, it doesn't *explain*, it *shows*
    Threedee Shepherd: <tangent> then what does music do?
    doug Sosa: even at the the university. any painting reveals lots, and is always expressive. standards get inthe way. Giving the student alternatives if good teaching, but the choices always have their own integrity.
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: Most if not all art is showing, with the exceptin of some literature.
    Mongo McGinnis: any form of expression demonstrates who you are and what are thinking
    doug Sosa: music is yet another universe. there dssonance is real and awkward. nothing in painting isreally equivaelnt.
    Threedee Shepherd: clashing *neon* colors ???
    Threedee Shepherd: Ade, what does music *show*?
    doug Sosa: the question for the teacher with clashing neon would be - to the student - how do you see it?
    Threedee Shepherd: As ion some 70s Op Art hurts to look at
    Threedee Shepherd: *in
    Adelene Dawner: Actually, the closest thing to dissoance is a visual sense would be a mix of neon and ... duller, less saturated colors... we can play with that sometime if you'd like, Three. As to what music shows - depends on the song, of course.
    Threedee Shepherd: no lyrics, I mean
    Adelene Dawner: yes. that's what I meant too.
    Adelene Dawner: I mostly prefer music without lyrics, or at least without lyrics in a language I understand.
    doug Sosa: Friends, i must go to dinner which is a few minutes early. Good to be back. I should listen more (to the written words?!?)
    Threedee Shepherd: So, does it show mood, emotion, clouds, or what--music that is
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ cya, Doug
    Threedee Shepherd: bye doug
    Stim Morane: bye Doug
    Adelene Dawner: mood/emotion is close.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire is Offline
    Threedee Shepherd: If anyone knows about it (not me) we could get into the words of Sign Language, which both shows and tells.
    Stim Morane: Don't know it.
    Adelene Dawner: The way I percieve music... I talk abotu 'patterns' a lot; music is the purest expression of the concept of 'pattern' that I've experienced yet (graphed mathematical functions are a reasonable second). In theory, music should be able to express anything... but humans tend to be very emotionally-oriented. Though... remember that stimmy computer thing I showed you a few months ago? That was music, and it wasn't emotional.
    Stim Morane: I missed seeing that.
    Stim Morane: It sounds interesting
    Adelene Dawner: http://www.coverpop.com/whitney/whitneyChromatic.swf (warning: immeidate sound)
    Avastu Maruti: perdon, my friends
    Threedee Shepherd: bye Avastu
    Stim Morane: bye
    Threedee Shepherd: Ah yes, that interesting music, color, visual
    Mongo McGinnis: sorry have to go my wife is dicussing elizabeatian literature have to go ttfn
    Mongo McGinnis: be well
    Stim Morane: Bye Mongo
    Threedee Shepherd: But here is an anecdote that suggests something about "learning" to listen to music.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ cya Mongo
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Stim Morane: I viewed a little of the piece, thanks Adelene.
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Stim Morane: I'll take in the rest later
    Threedee Shepherd: I was abpout 7 years old and at a music recital. The accordianist was playing a song (Lady of Sprin--why do I remember that) and my mother suddenly whispered "She hit a wrong note." I asked "How do you know?"
    Adelene Dawner: it loops, Stim, and it'll eat your brain if you're not careful ^.^ Three commented the first time he saw it that he was unable to think and *either* see it or hear it, at the same time.
    Stim Morane: Yes, I can easily imagine that.
    Stim Morane: This is why I stopped.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Spain
    Stim Morane: I spent my life, from about 6 months old to age 22, immersed in music. After that, I stopped listening to it.
    Adelene Dawner: o.O
    Threedee Shepherd: Sounds like there is a *story* there?
    Stim Morane: I think a fairly standard one. My mother was a professional musician, and I was usually in the presence of music ... and loved it. But I saw it was too coercive.
    Adelene Dawner: Interesting.
    Adelene Dawner: Sounds a bit like me and TV, though I never had a lot of pressure to watch it... but I do still listen to music a lot.
    Threedee Shepherd: Why coercive, rather than compelling?
    Stim Morane: I still love music ... some music. I just don't listen to it much.
    Stim Morane: Coercive? It actually entrains your breathing, and mind ...
    Stim Morane: I'm not going to say anything "against" it though.
    Adelene Dawner: Coercive *because* compelling - and I know exactly what you're talking about, Stim. The very traits in it that I find most useful.
    Stim Morane: Well, as I said, I'm not against it. I just don't listen myself.
    Threedee Shepherd: Stim, in a book in a box in my garage (one of too many) is a book of short stories by Orson Scott Card. You might like/hate/be-compelled by the story titled Unaccompanied sonata if you ever come across it.
    Adelene Dawner: Mmhmm. My sensory system puts me in an unusual position, perhaps. Having somethign to entrain *to* is genuinely helpful. But I'm fairly picky about my music - like I said, mostly without words if I can, among other preferences.
    Stim Morane: I haven't read it, but will.
    Stim Morane: Hi Steven
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: I keep sinking
    Threedee Shepherd: Interesting that you are the only one that seems to happen to here
    Threedee Shepherd: Ahh, Steve, id part of your Ooutfit checked as being Physical?
    stevenaia Michinaga: and the other day I was levitating above the pillow
    stevenaia Michinaga: not sure what you mean, Three
    Threedee Shepherd: Objects can be checked in their properties to be Physical. In some environments such objects behave strangly.
    stevenaia Michinaga: better check my shoes
    stevenaia Michinaga: I seem to be fine if I sit
    Threedee Shepherd: Sitting on an object involves an animation controlling you, which is different than just standing
    Threedee Shepherd: That assumes these pillows are animated
    Threedee Shepherd: which they are.
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems to be a rezzing issue
    Threedee Shepherd: However, if you stand directly on one, your feet will sink through it because they are also marked as Phantom
    stevenaia Michinaga: ooops, or not
    Stim Morane: it's like quicksand
    Stim Morane: :0
    Stim Morane: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: your feet are touching the ground level under the building
    stevenaia Michinaga: ok shoes off... does nothing, that;s the only thing new
    stevenaia Michinaga: must me these discount Ken mats
    stevenaia Michinaga: now that my dissolving into the floor is no longer an issue (till I stand up) what was I interrupting?
    Stim Morane: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: how music without lyrics "means", for one topic.
    stevenaia Michinaga: earlier today we were talking about something related to meaning of music, the timelesness of art... and its relavence now as well as centuries ago
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm, music is not prospective, it isn't better or worse awith time, just different
    stevenaia Michinaga: but great music can be timeless
    Threedee Shepherd: yes. Why is "great" music, *better* than other pieces of music?
    stevenaia Michinaga: or great art, like the statue of david, for instance
    Stim Morane: Oops, gotta go.
    Threedee Shepherd: Bye stim, we will consider the log closed
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Stim
    Stim Morane: OK, thanks.
    Stim Morane: I look forward to seeing you all again, maybe in RL?
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ yes!
    stevenaia Michinaga: soon
    Stim Morane: Great. Bye!
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