2009.04.03 07:00 - ("Blind") faith / working hypothesis

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    The Guardian for this meeting was quen Oh. The comments are by quen Oh.

    IMPORTANT: this discussion will be continued monday april 6th at 07:00!!!

    Eliza Madrigal: Morning, Pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
    Pema Pera: Sorry to be later :(
    Pema Pera: *late
    Eliza Madrigal: No worries. :) At all.
    Pema Pera: We have a new design ??
    Eliza Madrigal: I've been enjoying my coffee...was up a little too early :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe....well, clean-up never arrived it seems
    Pema Pera: clean-up?
    Eliza Madrigal: To me...looks like the party
    Pema Pera: ah, the tapestry design underneath the cushions?
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes :)
    Pema Pera: I guess I was too immersed in all the other effects to notice it :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: My dd just landed in your neck-of-the-woods...on her first away trip without me :)...felt the sting of attachment this morning
    Pema Pera: dd = daughter?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, forgive me. yes, my daughter. She is on a drama trip to NY for the next few days :)
    Pema Pera: ah, "drama daughter" :-)
    Pema Pera: what will she be doing in NYC?
    Eliza Madrigal: well yes, She has many tentacles tho...wants to go into biology I think
    Eliza Madrigal: Shows, workshops, that sort of thing.
    Pema Pera: sounds great !
    Pema Pera: her first trip to the city?
    Eliza Madrigal: No, we were there together a few years ago also, with the band. I accompanied that time though :)
    Pema Pera: now I'm really getting curious -- you and she play in a band?
    Eliza Madrigal: Not at all. SHE plays in a band with school...plays flute and a bit of piano
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Me, I go along
    Pema Pera: ah, I see :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Anyway, I wanted to ask your thinking behind the phrasing of :"everyday life" in the description of this time?
    I arrive with Sophia. We will be discussing the theme "Being and creating and all that".
    Pema Pera: Hi Quen and Sophia!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Quen, SophiaSharon :)
    Pema Pera: yes, shall we get started with our theme?
    quen Oh: hi Pema!
    quen Oh: hi Eliza, and Sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, sure
    Pema Pera: So here is the dilemma, that I think many of us are facing:
    quen Oh: sorry I am later than expected am in huge pc problems
    quen Oh: some installing loop of Vista servicepack 1
    quen Oh: keeps restarting the pc overand over for 5 hours now
    Pema Pera: np, Quen, we didn't start yet -- and perhaps you may want to consider switching to a Mac :-)
    Pema Pera: will solve all your problems -- and no more virus either
    quen Oh grins considering it, if it weren't for the investment
    quen Oh: so the theme
    Pema Pera: So the problem we are facing is that traditional religions have wonderful things to teach us: how to appreciate life, how to rise about day-to-day worries, how to see deeper into reality -- but the theory behind those teachings doesn't work anymore for us, it all just seems plain silly.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Pema Pera: The notion of a God creating the world and intervening in the natural order, that sounds so strange for modern people
    Pema Pera: and in fact, that is not an essential part of the ancient teachings!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: because we can intervene perhaps
    Pema Pera: The challenge we face is: how to extract what is essential and still valiable, something we can still work with in our own daily life
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Pema Pera: science and spirituality, both, have two components: experiment and theory
    quen Oh: well some of it still applies, no? "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." is still very usefull, it is more that some of the explaining stories are a bit out of time
    Pema Pera: the experimental results of ancient traditions are still valid. We just have to construct new theories to guide us, new contexts, new visions
    Pema Pera: yes, Quen, the framework has to be revised
    SophiaSharon Larnia: experimental results...
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd like to understand better, what you mean by "work with" and how you see it specifically, Pema
    Pema Pera: and much of the content can be retained, if it fits into the new framework
    Pema Pera: As for the specifics, Eliza, I think there are many options
    Pema Pera: The 20th century saw an enormous growth of science, and a rejection of ancient religious approaches by many scientists
    Pema Pera: understandably
    Pema Pera: since the ancient theories clashed with modern science
    Pema Pera: The 21th century will see attempts to provide new theories for ancient experiments/experiences
    Pema Pera: and there will be many attemps, many flowers will bloom
    Pema Pera: PaB is one
    Pema Pera: PaB may be one of the most radical ones
    Eliza Madrigal: Because those experiments and experiences will continue to resonate
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aurora :)
    Pema Pera: *if* we dare to go into them
    quen Oh: first thing is perhaps the importance of 'believing', without criticism in anything which people often relate to religion.. it seems paradoxal with the critic capacity we have got and helps us develope, also why would any higher entity care about us 'believing', as long as we care for each other and the world?
    Pema Pera: which is almost impossible if we can't find a context/framework/theory
    Pema Pera: yes, so we have to go very slowly
    Aurora arrives.
    Pema Pera: Hi Aurora!
    Aurora Kitaj: Hello everyone, sorry for being so late
    quen Oh: hi Aurora
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Aurora
    Pema Pera: Step 1: replace "blind faith" by "faith in the idea that it is very much worthwhile to spend a lot of time on the working hypothesis that . . . "
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, to skip to the essense of what i believe, the importance is that the higher entity is us
    Pema Pera: in other words, a more scientific attitude in spirituality will help, I think
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Pema Pera: now "..." can mean many things
    Pema Pera: in PaB it is related to Being, in which we still have to spell out.
    quen Oh: agreed, you should have an open frame of thinking, and at the same time care about what seems of important quality for life
    Pema Pera: Yes, Sophia, that is the essence, but then the question is "who are we?"
    Pema Pera: who am I?
    Pema Pera: so we have to go very very slowly :)
    Pema Pera: where shall we start?
    Pema Pera: faith perhaps?
    Pema Pera: what that means?
    quen Oh: I try to not believe anything Sophia, only to keep my options open and try to focus on the perspectives that seem most valuable and promising...
    quen Oh: in a very critical manner
    Sheepyhelen enters the pavillion.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sheepyhellen. Welcome :)
    quen Oh: hey Sheepy
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi
    Pema Pera: does the idea of a working hypothesis make sense?
    Pema Pera: Hi Sleepy!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes. And everyone involved are feelers...?
    quen Oh: that would be a good description Pema!
    Pema Pera: would I know whether you know, Sleepy ? :-)
    quen Oh: have you been here before Sheepy?
    Pema Pera: feelers, Eliza?
    Aurora Kitaj: hi :) Sleepy, take a seat
    sheepyhelen Lecker: why do you think working on hypothesis not making sense?
    Eliza Madrigal: I guess the picture that pops into mind is of the explorer robots/drones....picking up evidence of things, bringing back...
    Eliza Madrigal: and in a sense...but more sensory..or extra sensory
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Eliza
    Pema Pera: you mean as a kind of exploration, Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, that is how I'm hearing you.
    Eliza Madrigal: And yet...it can be tricky...
    Pema Pera: exploration/experimentation can mean many things
    sheepyhelen Lecker: i think hypotheis is acting as a direction of thinking, that is important to every sciences
    Eliza Madrigal: because you aren't not talking about a "new religion" of some sort.
    Pema Pera: so for now, it may be good just to have an open mind as to how exactly we will experiment. One way to look at it is to see your whole life as an experiment
    Eliza Madrigal: And I think some can get lost there
    sheepyhelen Lecker: what is "new religion"?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: like explorers in a physical sense
    sheepyhelen Lecker: religion should include a target pray, science is without any object to be prayed
    And more input in the faith-discussion with the arrival of Qt.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Qt
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Qt
    Qt Core: hi all
    sheepyhelen Lecker: hi
    Pema Pera: Sheepy, we observe 90 seconds of silence, after the bell rings
    Pema Pera: and during that time the pond becomes misty, to give you a visual clue
    Pema Pera: you can see the text in the local chat box
    Pema Pera: As fYes, Sophia, explorations have much in common
    Pema Pera: whether outer or so-called inner
    Pema Pera: which in fact is also outer :)
    Eliza Madrigal: The "inner reaches of outer space" as Josph Campbell would say
    Pema Pera: So shall we linger a bit more about the role of faith?
    Pema Pera: just to go slow?
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure, Pema.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well blind faith hasnt worked
    Pema Pera: Let us try to see wether we can agree on the triple set of { faith, critique, hypothesis }
    Eliza Madrigal: I think so
    Pema Pera: I think we all agree that blind faith doesn't work for us, here, those who are present --- is that correct?
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, but in a sense what we're doing is sort of getting into a place where our current eyes dont work the same way
    quen Oh: faith and belief seem closely related to desire.. does that make sense?
    Pema Pera: Yet there are many stories in many traditions of people arriving at the most marvelous deep insight, in explorations that started off with blind faith . . . were they just wrong?
    Pema Pera: yes, Eliza
    Pema Pera: and yes, Quen
    Eliza Madrigal: No they were seeing in a differnt way
    Eliza Madrigal: Glimpses
    Pema Pera: so before we throw out blind faith we may want to be careful
    Pema Pera: part of it does seem to have worked, can we regain *that* part?
    quen Oh: depend, desire confuses, can be destructive even as it can distort what you see, but I am sure there be insight more detached from delusional desires...
    Eliza Madrigal: I can
    Pema Pera: so let us go slow . .. .
    Pema Pera: do we see at least some positive part in "blind faith"?
    quen Oh: faith cannot be thrown away as we are not omniscient gods... I think
    SophiaSharon Larnia: trust
    Pema Pera: or is it all to be thrown out?
    Very helpfull when talking about faith: buddha joins us!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi buddha!
    Pema Pera: Hi Bud!
    buddha Nirvana: Hi eliza, pemma, everyone:)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI buddha
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, one has to have a sense of trust to even venture like this
    quen Oh: when you log in to SL you 'belief' PAB pavillion is still there, as there is no reason or sign that it won't and you have been there so many times, so that kind of belief seems useful, even though we do know that it is entirely possible it is based on nothing
    Pema Pera: How about going around the circle and letting everybody say, if they like to do so, what they think could be kept from the notion of "blind faith", if anything at all. So, Quen, that was your contribution -- do you want to add something?
    quen Oh: or it will not prevent you from being confronted one day with a Second Life where for whatever reason there is no more a pab pavillion
    quen Oh: ok
    Pema Pera: please let everyone feel free to speak up -- we don't have to wait for each other, here in text.
    Eliza Madrigal: I always leave room for what I cannot imagine. That to me is a sort of blind faith/trust
    SophiaSharon Larnia: preconceived notions
    Pema Pera: [Quen: faith is useful, as a way to predict the future]
    Aurora Kitaj: :)
    Qt Core: blindfauth=no doubts, easy way to decide about things
    Pema Pera: [Eliza: faith is related to openness for change]
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Change has been good to me
    Qt Core: (i have blind faith in my typing skills ... no
    Aurora Kitaj: would Faith also be able wishing for change
    Pema Pera: [faith making life easier]
    Eliza Madrigal: or at least more fun
    Pema Pera: [Aurora: faith as helping in making changes]
    Pema Pera: [Qt: faith making life easier]
    Aurora Kitaj: faith offers a goal then it's simply a case of re prioritising different elements of you life
    quen Oh: (would say faith is useful to order what you know and expect, so you have some peace and trust in that?)
    Pema Pera: Thank you all! Is this a fair quick summary, so far:
    Pema Pera: [7:40] Pema Pera: [Quen: faith is useful, as a way to predict the future] [7:40] Pema Pera: [Eliza: faith is related to openness for change] [7:42] Pema Pera: [Qt: faith making life easier] [7:41] Pema Pera: [Aurora: faith as helping in making changes]
    Pema Pera: or did I miss something?
    Eliza Madrigal: But then change is only good if one feels stable in what seems unchanging or *not*...anchored. I think faith is the same. It is useful as long as it doesn't close one off from Listening...so haev a qualifier
    Eliza Madrigal: And that was it :)
    quen Oh: exactly Eliza, problems with faith arise I think when it closes off what you know and expect, and you are no long er open to change that
    Eliza Madrigal: I think of a deep-sea diver, with others monitoring that he is still breathing, etc.
    Qt Core: would some choose faith over Listening/Searching just to not have to spend energy on that ? i think some does
    quen Oh: perhaps it is a balance, not a choice?
    Buddha has to leave. We go on from 'faith' to the notion of 'blindness' as in 'blind faith'.
    buddha Nirvana: Excuse me all)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now buddha :)
    quen Oh: no problem buddha
    Aurora Kitaj: bye Buddha
    quen Oh: see you later buddha
    Qt Core: maybe as i was late i lost something, the faith we are speaking about is only the religious one or not ?
    Pema Pera: we can talk about it very broadly
    Pema Pera: Isn't it interesting, what we have found so far? Faith seems to be pretty important, in two ways: helping us to continue to live as we are used to *and* to make changes in how we life -- pretty impressive! Faith doesn't seem very negative. It seems that only the "blind" part is what is getting in the way, but . . .
    Aurora Kitaj: I prefer to talk about the wider interpetation of the word
    Pema Pera: . . . is the "blind" part only negative? Can we have another round, in which everyone will comment on possible positive aspects of "blind" in "blind faith? Or does "blind" in "blind faith" simply have no positive aspects at all?
    quen Oh: you need to have some trust and faith in what you know and have experienced and perhaps at the same strive for the rest and detachment from that to be as much as possible open to new insights?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it is positive in the sense of safety and community with others sharing the same faith
    Eliza Madrigal: I feel what I would call "blind" much of the time...as though I am touching a very miniscule bit of all that I'd like to experience, and yet there are times when that is reversed, and experience overwhelmes the tiny bit which is me :)
    quen Oh: the positive of blindness is the absenced of doubt and the delusional peace and derterminedness it seems to give, it activates people
    Pema Pera: [SophiaSharon: safety, community with others]
    Aurora Kitaj: fath can also be a journey
    Aurora Kitaj: and that journey may evolve as we start to travel
    Pema Pera: [Eliza: blind as a given, mostly]
    Pema Pera: [Quen: delusional ways to activate people]
    quen Oh: and certainty it gives
    Pema Pera: [Aurora: blind can evolve]
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Like that
    quen Oh: [Pema:....?]
    Qt Core: blind faith in your cause can give you the energy you need to follow it
    Pema Pera: [Qt: blnd can give energy]
    Qt Core: enery/motivation
    Pema Pera: [7:50] Pema Pera: [SophiaSharon: safety, community with others] [7:51] Pema Pera: [Eliza: blind as a given, mostly] [7:51] Pema Pera: [Quen: delusional ways to activate people] [7:52] Pema Pera: [Aurora: blind can evolve] [7:52] Pema Pera: [Qt: blnd can give energy]
    Pema Pera: fair summary?
    Aurora Kitaj: fath is, I hate to say it ... love
    quen Oh: [Quen: absence of doubt activates / motivates people]
    Pema Pera: Okay, I'm happy to add my view too: "blind" may be a good start, but can lead to big mistakes, so I prefer to switch from faith to hypothesis
    quen Oh: (would be my summary)
    Pema Pera: Aurora, that's a beautiful addition!
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't see absence of doubt as faith...
    Eliza Madrigal: The doubt is what makes the faith healthy, imo...safety built in
    Pema Pera: no, Eliza, faith and blind faith are different
    quen Oh: faith is a way of relating to all that you cannot be sure of
    Pema Pera: ah, so we have {faith, blind faith, doubt, critique, hypothesis}
    Eliza Madrigal might not understand blind faith in the same way but listening :)
    Pema Pera: five things to compare!
    quen Oh: in that sense love is like that too
    Pema Pera: {faith, doubt, love}
    quen Oh: Eliza, absence of doubt would be the 'blind' part in faith?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so can pinpoint my mistake, critique thank you :) (one of my mistakes)
    Pema Pera: we are all searching, Sophia, trying this and that -- no mistakes, just different attempts -- and we learn from each other :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: I see that angle, just isn't my angle I think, but then I am aware that sometimes it will take a bit before all these angles sync together :)
    quen Oh: very possible we all mistake anything ;-)
    Pema Pera: we can and should explore many angles :)
    Pema Pera: so we have love, devotion, faith and doubt -- perhaps that is another set to look at, at leisure . . . .
    Pema Pera: I'll have to leave in a couple minutes
    Pema Pera: shall we continue this next time?
    Pema Pera: I find it fascinating!
    quen Oh: me too, and when would be next time?
    Eliza Madrigal: You are helping us not do it all at once, Pema :) Sure. Monday 7AM is my slot :)
    Pema Pera: when would you all like?
    Pema Pera: Monday 7 am?
    quen Oh: will try
    quen Oh: looking forward to that
    Pema Pera: Yes, Eliza, I think it is important to take as much time as we need, with very small steps
    Pema Pera: not trying to address everything all at once :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Yes, hehe
    Pema Pera: Quen, if you can put this chat log up today, I will then announce the Monday 7 am continuation, as soon as it is up
    Even though I was on the phone for a minute, I can and will email Pema when done!
    Pema Pera: Perhaps you can send me an IM or email when you have it on the wiki
    Qt Core: ohhh, i just got i can be here monday, 7am isn't my usual sl timr ;-)
    Pema Pera: sorry to hear that, Qt, but I'm afraid it will be impossible to find a time that works for everybody
    Pema Pera: you will read our next session on the chat log, and hopefully can join us for the thirds
    Qt Core: i'm saying i'll be here
    Pema Pera: *third
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Oh good
    Pema Pera: I, I thought it was a typo :-)
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Pema Pera: glad to hear that !
    Pema Pera: Is that okay, Quen?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you all... have a wonderful day :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: talk to you later
    Pema Pera: bye Sophia!
    Aurora Kitaj: bye Sophia
    Qt Core: bye Sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Sophia! C you soon
    Pema Pera: Well I have to go, hope Quen will read this when she comes back :)
    Pema Pera: thank you all !
    Eliza Madrigal: May I ask a practical question to those who are using computers all day on a regular basis?
    Aurora Kitaj: bye Pema
    Qt Core: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Pema, appreciate the time :)
    Qt Core: i use it at least 12 hours a day
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, perfect! I've been on quite a bit lately....and it isn't wasted time or frivolous so I'd like to continue to pace as I'm interested...but
    Eliza Madrigal: Ouch!
    Aurora Kitaj: 10 hours a day for me, maybe less
    Eliza Madrigal: My shoulder hurts
    Eliza Madrigal: And I know it is because a certain muscle is being affected by the keyboarding
    Aurora Kitaj: yes, but given the invaluable communication medium that sle offers me, happy to be on 3 hours after work
    Aurora Kitaj: keeps me on the up and up
    Qt Core: maybe you have a too high desk so you press with your arm on it stressing shoulders ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe!
    Aurora Kitaj: have you tried arms rests or elbow rests
    Aurora Kitaj: I'm using both, they help
    Qt Core: adjusting the seat may help making it higher
    Eliza Madrigal: the keyboard is actually a bit low for my chair.........and where would arm rests go?...Hmm Wish I could show a picture
    Qt Core: ook wrong idea (mine)
    quen Oh: have to go too, bye all!
    Qt Core: bye quen
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye quen, thanks :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Not a wrong idea though...the chair/desk situation may have much to do with it
    Eliza Madrigal: I changed chairs in order to meditate more easily...
    Eliza Madrigal: so it isn't an office chair, but a dining table chair which has more stability
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to go back to the other chair for a week and see if it helps..so a GOOD idea actually
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you very much
    Qt Core: yw
    Qt Core: i've seen in some shop some "chair" for pc use that remind me more about torture devices than about chairs
    Eliza Madrigal: heheheh!
    Qt Core: but many people say they are good
    Qt Core: hi magio
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi magio
    magio Pizzicato: hi everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Welcome, have you been here before?
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I'd better look into it. My online time is productive now, and enjoyable...dont' want to be limited by discomfort :)
    magio Pizzicato: my first
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, let me give you a notecard that will tell you a little about Play as Being :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Do you have your chat box open? If so, you saw the notice about our 90 second pauses. The idea is basically to stop for a moment and "drop what we have/do, to remember what we are" :) Does that make sense ? We've just had a discussion about faith...
    Eliza Madrigal: and then I was asking for practical advice on computer comfort. :) Very balanced - hah
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to need to go now though...have been online for a while this morning and would like to attend the Kira workshop later
    magio Pizzicato: ok
    Qt Core: ok, have fun with you online and offline day then
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to talk with you today :) heh Hav a great day Qt
    Eliza Madrigal: (and Aurora)
    Aurora Kitaj: sorry there
    Aurora Kitaj: !
    Aurora Kitaj: I was in my own world
    Qt Core: it happens sometimes here all that thinking ;-)
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