2009.05.07 07:00 - Conditioning, Love, and Auto-Logging

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    Honestly, there is not much to add to this session. It was a lovely, playful session wherein Adams, Fael, and I talked about Enduring Love, Endless Compassion, and Seeing to the heart of things. What is left to say? Certainly nothing left to say for me, Eliza, who seems once again to have had way too much coffee. ;-)

    Oh, well maybe that toward the end useful information about new email feature of the auto-loggger is given! Thanks Fael!


    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams, Good Morning! :)
    Adams Rubble: Good Morning Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: (and great shoes!)
    Adams Rubble: Thanks, I like them :)
    Adams Rubble: Finally a pair I really like
    Adams Rubble: I wear them all the time (giggles)
    Adams Rubble: they can change colors
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, we have our favorites I guess...even when we try not to.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh! That's convenient! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: How are you doing this morning?
    Adams Rubble: Oh, I am good, thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: (Oo pink.. pretty)
    Adams Rubble: How are you?
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm rather thoughtful this morning actually....
    Eliza Madrigal: have several things I'm turning over....
    Adams Rubble listens
    Eliza Madrigal: First, there is 'Compassion' as a general topic.... and the practice of seeing Kindness "everywhere"
    Eliza Madrigal: Then, there is the idea of 'sin-consciousness', which as I learn and read more about certain practices, seems to come up.... and with the ethics discussion
    Eliza Madrigal: And lastly, the 'approach' of Being
    Eliza Madrigal: Which sounds funny as I phrase it that way
    Adams Rubble: wow, that is a table full :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, Indeed!
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Wanna pick one? Or perhaps wipe the table clean and throw out another? :)
    Adams Rubble: I had the thought last night that at times it all seems very simple
    Adams Rubble: I am wondering if those are the times we see best
    Adams Rubble: I have been thinking much about compassion though
    Adams Rubble: it seems to be the one thing that reduces our metal sufferings
    Adams Rubble: more than anything else
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes... it is like getting right to the Essence
    Adams Rubble: I hope that is not going in too much of a different direction from what you are saying
    Eliza Madrigal: Not at all!

    Adams Rubble: Of couse I am influenced by my former Christian background and Paul
    Adams Rubble: It seems that Love is the one place where my exdperience in PaB and Christianity come together
    Eliza Madrigal: "Love never fails"
    Adams Rubble: Love helps us see better
    Adams Rubble: and yes about not failing :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes.... everything will pass away....
    Adams Rubble: only we fail (giggles)
    Eliza Madrigal: Am hearing that Biblical phrasing that Paul uses to describe Love
    Adams Rubble: yes :)
    Adams Rubble: It is great!
    Eliza Madrigal: "Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not love it profits me nothing"
    Adams Rubble: I still suffer
    Eliza Madrigal: yes. Hmm
    Eliza Madrigal: We struggle to 'attain' things... whether those things are knowledge or the illusion of safety....
    Eliza Madrigal: and that is suffering
    Adams Rubble nods
    Adams Rubble: and notices Eliza has slipped in a little Buddhism :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh... a little Buddhism has slipped into Eliza
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble admits "me too"
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I've always read the Bible in a Buddhist way..

    Eliza Madrigal: It is perhaps what made church difficult for me in my earlist 'spiritual discovery'years
    Eliza Madrigal: *earliest
    Eliza Madrigal: The other phrase that comes to mind... is "Love is stronger than death"
    Adams Rubble: Hmmm
    Adams Rubble: Yes
    Adams Rubble: the legacy of love
    Eliza Madrigal: That was a particularly nice place to pause wasn't it? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: One angle I've been considering also, is that Love's Capacity is so great....
    Adams Rubble listens
    Eliza Madrigal: Perhaps we have people in our lives who are challenging...or we find ourselve challenging with....
    Adams Rubble sees where Eliza is going
    Eliza Madrigal: and if we surrender to Love (and I suppose this context Being), then we can 'actually' act with love
    Adams Rubble: I am finding in my life that Love is filtering slowly but yes, in a way it is surrendering to Love
    Eliza Madrigal: And it has nothing to do with 'anything that has happened'
    Adams Rubble: falling into Love
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes! Scary somehow. Marvelously Frightening.
    Adams Rubble: as opposed to falling in love. hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: !! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Conscious
    Eliza Madrigal: Mindful
    Eliza Madrigal: Awake
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble admits that I am not mindful most of the time
    Adams Rubble: hopefully am conscious
    Adams Rubble: but love CAN go bridge those times I think
    Adams Rubble: "go" not supposed to be there
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes.... I hear what you mean I think...
    Eliza Madrigal: that we can't 'rely' on our'selves' to be consistent or mindful...we make more and more room perhaps
    Adams Rubble: It seems to filter in slowly but once there it is fairly robust
    Eliza Madrigal: It ripens :)
    Adams Rubble: love that is
    Adams Rubble: and stays
    Eliza Madrigal: Love Endures
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: That's what I mean. hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Adams Rubble: they come together
    Adams Rubble: PaB and Christianity
    Eliza Madrigal: Essentially.... the practice we intend to engage in here I think....
    Eliza Madrigal: *is* love

    Adams Rubble: Hello fael :)
    Eliza Madrigal: We intend to accept and listen and learn and expand our capacities to Love
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fael! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oooo Pretty Faun
    Fael Illyar: Hi Eliza, Adams :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal: Fael, Adams and I are talking about Love this morning... Compassion :) Thoughts?
    Fael Illyar: Just saying Love doesn't really bring up much :)
    Fael Illyar: or, to be exacy, brings too much :)
    Adams Rubble: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes! An Ocean.
    Eliza Madrigal: And how does one talk about the ocean.... salt, water, movement... Or Bliss, Submergence, Emergence...
    Eliza Madrigal: *does
    Fael Illyar: Well, this came up... I prefer to love over not loving :)
    Fael Illyar: to deny love is to deny yourself.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmm, to trap yourself in suffering
    Eliza Madrigal: And others with you perhaps
    Fael Illyar: yes, that might be one way to put it.
    Fael Illyar: because, love doesn't have a target. It just is. If you try to deny it, you stop it from flowing through yourself.
    Eliza Madrigal: A personal note... I realized recently that I was managing someone... or thought that I kept distance for one reason, when really... it was a punishment. It was very humbling to see that.
    Eliza Madrigal: Allowing Love means seeing things in a different way often.
    Adams Rubble: yes, it is connected to seeing from as different perspective
    Fael Illyar: Yes... Allowing Love is also allowing yourself to see the truth.
    Adams Rubble: they compliment one another
    Eliza Madrigal nods... then freedom :)
    Adams Rubble: seeing and compassion

    Fael Illyar: I realized yesterday what has caused my tendency to leave many things to the last possible moment.
    Eliza Madrigal: We arrive back and Biblical phrasing "You shall know/see the truth..."
    Fael Illyar: (and with things without real deadlines, postponing them endlessly)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes Fael? That seems a big discovery.
    Adams Rubble: someone once said deadlines are our best friend otherwise we would never get anything done
    Eliza Madrigal: yesterday I heard "No one has a cleaner house than a writer on a deadline." hehe
    Fael Illyar: The root at the bottom of it all was a fear of my father giving me a spanking if I did not force myself to do some things.
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh
    Adams Rubble: the hehe was meant for Eliza's statement
    Adams Rubble: Yes, our parents can remain powerful forces in our lives
    Eliza Madrigal: This created a resistence and rebellion Fael?
    Fael Illyar: So, I was attempting to force myself to do certain things I thought should or must be done
    Fael Illyar: and yes, this caused a rebellion that was the element that was on the surface and in my actions.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... you weren't allowed to have your own rhythm or way, in a sense.
    Adams Rubble: great insight for you fael :)
    Fael Illyar: rebellion against the "must" and "shoulds" I was having in me.
    Fael Illyar: I only ever followed them when they became undeniable real practical necessities.
    Adams Rubble: It is wonderful when we can do things because we enjoy them rather than they have to be done
    Fael Illyar: Yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Certainly
    Fael Illyar: I cleaned my kitchen yesterday... feeling happy while doing it :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: : )
    Fael Illyar: it's quite shiny now :)
    Fael Illyar: used to be a bit chaotic :)
    Eliza Madrigal: A quote in my 1st life profile "We can do no great things, only small things with great love"
    Eliza Madrigal: Mother Tereaa
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Teresa, rather
    Fael Illyar: the rebellion could be put in other words as "trying to force myself to not force"
    Eliza Madrigal: I think at some point, that rhythm and way of seeing things that we seem to be born with...
    Eliza Madrigal: is going to emerge
    Fael Illyar: It was quite a surprise to me to learn yesterday that I was actually attempting to force myself still :)
    Adams Rubble: Old habits are hard to break
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Adams Rubble: but they slowly fade away
    Eliza Madrigal: When you can see through them clearly
    Fael Illyar: yes, it ebbs and flows :)
    Adams Rubble nods
    Fael Illyar: I first managed to do something about this last summer when I got past an attachment to not having attachments :P
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehhe....
    Eliza Madrigal: is that like a fear of commitment?
    Fael Illyar: but it seems to have reshaped itself and returned.
    Fael Illyar: yes, fear of commitment is likely correct... because that'd cause me to force myself.
    Adams Rubble: if we persist, each time around, the view is a little clearer :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah. Yes!
    Fael Illyar: Yes, feels like I actually understand the root now :)
    Fael Illyar: still left to clean up the leaves and branches.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: I was especially surprised about the fear of my father giving me a spanking being at the bottom, considering the last one was around 20 years ago :)
    Adams Rubble: it is like cleaning up real leaves and branches, it never stays clean :)
    Eliza Madrigal: It is often many years before one is able to begin to see those things Fael
    Adams Rubble: Fael, we can be cleaning up after our parents when we are in our 60s :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheheh
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I've seen that :)
    Eliza Madrigal: See above reference to person I was punishing :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes :)
    Adams Rubble nods
    Adams Rubble: I am afraid I must run. I have some of those deadlines (giggles)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Adams, thanks for stopping by!! :))
    Adams Rubble: bye Eliza and fael...nice talking to you :)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Adams :)
    Fael Illyar: It's difficult to avoid the punishing ways.
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, and sometimes we are so short sighted about who we punish....
    Eliza Madrigal: I punished the one who stayed... not the one who left. :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, sometimes it's even ourselves.
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed!!!
    Fael Illyar: no-one suffers alone.
    Eliza Madrigal: We are all connected in a very powerful way....
    Fael Illyar: Yes
    Eliza Madrigal: have been dwelling on this... I know it and yet I see it everwhere now... We are absolutely dependent
    Eliza Madrigal: on others... on kindnesses...
    Fael Illyar: Yes, especially because we so rarely give ourselves kindness.
    Eliza Madrigal: this is true. It is part of our conditioning
    Eliza Madrigal: When you talk about your childhood fears, that's what I hear...
    Eliza Madrigal: we fall 'in line'
    Fael Illyar: conditioning?
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: yes. If you interrupt a pattern and lead it in a different direction all the time...
    Eliza Madrigal: as with a child getting a spanking...
    Eliza Madrigal: the tendency is 'set'
    Eliza Madrigal: But that need to follow through with discovery and learning is incomplete
    Fael Illyar: Yes and often we see what is wrong and try to fix it but overreact and go to the other extreme, like my case.
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... I'm suddenly reminded of something my grandmother said often.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes?
    Fael Illyar: "A child must not be forced."
    Eliza Madrigal: In earlier generations, it was considered loving to spank children... the 'real' world is harsh and one had to 'get ready'
    Fael Illyar: one sided sentence that though...
    Eliza Madrigal: Of course it is more complex.
    Fael Illyar: yes, I remember a saying in Finnish to that effect.
    Fael Illyar: to try to translate it would be "the one who saves the switch, hates his/her child"
    Eliza Madrigal: I way overdid that (not forcing) with my oldest d. We would spend 3 hrs in the grocery store talking about everything and if there were circumstances that didn't enable that time, she would react strongly to that.
    Eliza Madrigal: Fael, yes exactly!!
    Fael Illyar: phone
    Eliza Madrigal: :) No worries
    Fael Illyar: ok, done
    Fael Illyar: ah, yes, the other side of the coin is that if you go too far in that direction, you're mishandling yourself.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, it took many years to find a balance. I was a young mom and had many determinations to do everything 'differently'... start from scratch! Mostly, I'm happy about that ... must admit. :)
    Eliza Madrigal: (Btw, Faun is great.. when you walked up I thought she was a separate avatar swimming in the sky approaching us :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Fael Illyar: Just something I got while fishing :P
    Eliza Madrigal: Am thinking... great things can come from rebellion
    Eliza Madrigal: Do you think so?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, as long as it's not overblown :)

    Fael Illyar: one way to characterize my no-forcing approach would be to shoot a fly with a nuke thinking it's something worse than a fly.
    Eliza Madrigal: YES!
    Eliza Madrigal: I think often that way of doing things... the saw to the butter sort of way... is a result of our disconnection from
    Fael Illyar: well false no-forcing approach to be strict but :)
    Eliza Madrigal: our true-er selves...
    Eliza Madrigal: we are oveten severed from our own instincts
    Eliza Madrigal: *often
    Fael Illyar: Yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Have you heard of the His Dark Materials books?
    Eliza Madrigal: those came to mind using the word severed... and seeing Faun swimming around you :)
    Eliza Madrigal: In those books, daemons are creatures connected to people... they are a vital part of them needed to be creative and rebellious...questioning and daring :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I guess it's accurate to say that daemons are creatures created by our imagination.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes
    Fael Illyar: people often do their best to transmit their own daemons to others.
    Eliza Madrigal: well this is true too.... to force connection
    Eliza Madrigal: rather than allow it to be or not be
    Fael Illyar has catches herself doing that too.
    Eliza Madrigal: we 'project'.. yup. Difficult not to
    Fael Illyar: we 'project' them on others trying to shield ourselves.
    Fael Illyar: when it's really our own daemon we need shielding from
    Eliza Madrigal: perhaps... we need to 'make peace' with our own and everyone else's too... see through them
    Fael Illyar: the daemon's certainly resist that peace hard.
    Fael Illyar: in a way, it's actually the daemon trying to transmit itself to others by controlling us.
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm thinking of a girl who was so harsh on the outside... for years and years... It was to cover deep pain. .. deep fear. Truly loving people I think... cut right through that. A skill to cultivate.
    Fael Illyar: it does it by fooling us that we're defending ourselves.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes!!!
    Fael Illyar: Fear is what allows these daemons to control us.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Fael Illyar: and in a way, their food.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah... and wrapping back to the topic "Perfect love casts out fear"
    Fael Illyar: Yes, Love is the best way to win fear.
    Eliza Madrigal: hehhe... hope no one is offended with the Bibical references
    Fael Illyar: Well, if they are, let them :) It's their daemon's being offended :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I had thrown my Christianity in a closet for a long time, and Buddha gave it back. Hehhehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Now it is just 'one thing' among many.... no closed doors
    Fael Illyar: Yes, mine was in the closet too... still is to some extent but I've been taking it back out at times.
    Eliza Madrigal: That seems to be the idea behind detachment
    Fael Illyar: that? taking it out of the closet only sometimes?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well... that everything is up for grabs....
    Fael Illyar: sort of :)
    Eliza Madrigal: nothing is overly important or unimportant
    Eliza Madrigal: with regard to what we've learned or labeled ourselves
    Eliza Madrigal: or others have labeled us :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Not the clearest thought.. but something that seems to be about love and unity and connectedness
    Eliza Madrigal: and acceptance
    Eliza Madrigal: we put aspects of ourselves in the closet along with those labels we reject sometimes
    Fael Illyar: labels have only the meaning you give to them.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed
    Eliza Madrigal: So what are your plans now that the kitchen is clean Fael? :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, my apartment overall still needs some work :)
    Fael Illyar: now comes the problem of deciding what to do again. My list of things to do that I can do just grew a notch
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, the 'that I can do' seems pertinent there?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, the things I don't have a daemon blocking me from doing :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) give the daemon a job too ... hehe
    Fael Illyar: they do have jobs ... the ones I've catched :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Fael Illyar: although, I'm not sure if calling them daemons is suitable anymore.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, we may have exhasted that :)
    Eliza Madrigal: exhausted*
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Fael Illyar: the ones that are still controlling me instead of working for me are the ones preventing me from doing things :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes we simply don't have the skills yet...
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes all we can do is breathe and allow everything to unfold....
    Eliza Madrigal: Most of the time actually.
    Fael Illyar: Is that not the most important skill?
    Eliza Madrigal: It feels great to do what we can do at the same time though!
    Fael Illyar: interesting observation here... now that there is more sunlight here... it seems to be easier to deal with my daemons than during the winter when there was very little
    Eliza Madrigal: That IS an interesting observation!
    Eliza Madrigal: Light helps us see through
    Fael Illyar: Yes, seems it does :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Don't know why but I have Joni Mitchell playing in my head....
    Eliza Madrigal: "its cloud illusions I recall... I really don't know love at all..."
    Fael Illyar: I see...

    The song is a little long to post in this rather long session. Here's a link though : http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/joni+mitchell/both+sides+now_20075289.html

    The New Auto-Logging System:

    Fael Illyar: Did you notice the new session logs always in email functionality?
    Eliza Madrigal: Do you mean that I've always gotten them?
    Eliza Madrigal: I've never had a problem, but sometimes I stay online when posting the logs and writing during the day.... like to sit in a nice place... so usually don't have to rely on email.
    Fael Illyar: Ah, no, before today, it sent them with object IMs that you get to your email only if you're offline when they're sent (and your offline IMs get emailed to you)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah... so now it will always send to email??
    Fael Illyar: if you were online, they show up in local chat as a green line
    Fael Illyar: and no email
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, that is usually what I follow.
    Fael Illyar: now you can register an email address and it will always send a message there too
    Fael Illyar: is this your meeting?
    Eliza Madrigal: That message I saw at the beginning.... it said to "say" something...somewhere...
    Eliza Madrigal: Where is that? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: (forgive my lack of tech savvy)
    Fael Illyar: right here :)
    Fael Illyar: on channel 17
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, this is my slot now. :)
    Fael Illyar: so if you say /17 email@address.here it will in the future try to send the log links to email@address.here
    Fael Illyar: it will also send a test email right after you register an address
    Fael Illyar: if you don't receive it, something doesn't work :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhhh! Thanks. I hope it doesn't have to be the same email that is registered for SL
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, how interesting....
    Fael Illyar: no, it can be any email
    Eliza Madrigal: it didn't show the email publicly
    Eliza Madrigal: when I wrote it in chat
    Fael Illyar: yes, channel 17 is not visible to people :)
    Fael Illyar: just to scripts
    Fael Illyar: that have decided to listen on it.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fael Illyar: only channel 0 is heard by other people
    Fael Illyar: also, any green messages you saw with your email address, were messages only you saw :)
    Eliza Madrigal: AH... layering
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you
    Fael Illyar: also, for now since it's a testing period for the new script, it'll send you it both as email and as before.
    Eliza Madrigal: great. I should have no worries. Shall I stop the log now and we will see?
    Fael Illyar: if you wish :)

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