2009.06.23 19:00 - Physical/non-Physical Interdependence

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.


    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pila!
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eos, how are you?
    Eos Amaterasu: seems to be a busy time, in multiple worlds
    Pila Mulligan: hmmm
    Pila Mulligan: mine is pretty laid back these days -- I hope the busy is happy for you
    Eos Amaterasu: my wife directs the ALIA Institute (Authentic Leadership in Action) which is having its annual summer week-long program right now
    Pila Mulligan: aha
    Eos Amaterasu: and I'm helping prepare a triple world cafe (RL, SL, Skype) in conjunction with that
    Pila Mulligan: how interesting
    Pila Mulligan: the triple world idea especially
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza
    Eos Amaterasu sees an art historian arrive
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eliza!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Yidam!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos, Pila, Yidam :)
    Yidam Nightfire: hi guys1
    Yidam Nightfire: 1
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmm...sees pattern
    Yidam Nightfire: can't type haha
    Eliza Madrigal: How's everyone tonight?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Yidam
    Pila Mulligan: !?
    Eos Amaterasu: Pretty good - slowly rezzing into bit relaxing after bizzy day
    Yidam Nightfire: Hi pila
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi SophiaSharon!
    Pila Mulligan: hi SophiaSharon
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I'm happy to be online... have had internet troubles for a few weeks now :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi SophiaSharon :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eos, Pila, Eliza, Yidam :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Yidam, have you' been to Play as Being?
    Yidam Nightfire: i think so
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice group this evening :)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (is feeling very introspective and really quiet)
    Eos Amaterasu: chakras are quiet? :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia grins
    Yidam Nightfire: i don't think we've met before :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi YIdam


    Interconnectedness and hyperstimulus

    Eliza Madrigal: I'm thoughtful tonight... spoke with my son about the topic we touched on Sunday (interconnectedness) and then its come up twice this evening
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what did he have to say about it?
    Eliza Madrigal: or maybe I'm just reading it into everything... but either way
    Eliza Madrigal: Well it was a funny conversation...started with his talking about aliens and if something doesn't have a brain...how can they breathe... silly...
    Eliza Madrigal: but then somehow we got to interrelatedness and dependence ... breathe/air
    Eliza Madrigal: then to chaos theory...
    Eliza Madrigal: was a ride, really :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
    Eos Amaterasu: Moms should take their kids on roller coaster rides :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: he is 10? (--> reads the logs)
    Eliza Madrigal nods...or allow themselves to be taken by their kids
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: awesome
    Eliza Madrigal: You must have seen the silliest log ever, Sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh it looked like so much fun
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it doesn't surprise me that much about the conversation with you son
    SophiaSharon Larnia: your*
    Eliza Madrigal: Some of my most interesting conversations are with my kids... but he will go longer with me
    Eliza Madrigal: take things really far
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: our society of hyper-stimulus would seem to be anthema to spirual inquiry (although i don't think he thought of it that way)
    Eliza Madrigal: no, maybe not :))
    Eos Amaterasu: Sometimes things get so loud that everything is quiet
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but i suspect it may be the other way around
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, why would anyone want to stop when they could be going?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hyper evolution (im sure many would not agree)
    Eos Amaterasu: go where?
    Eliza Madrigal: well there is the question :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: hyper stimulus could also be like hyperconnectedness
    Eos Amaterasu: nothing is anything without its connectedness to everything
    Eos Amaterasu: which means it's really nothing
    SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: :) empty
    Yidam Nightfire: so you mean the interconnectedness of all things not just living beings?
    Eos Amaterasu: I think so: we owe our molecules to the stars
    Eliza Madrigal: that's where the conversation started, yes... our breathe requires air...
    Eliza Madrigal: *breath
    Yidam Nightfire: or they to us
    Eliza Madrigal nods and smiles
    Yidam Nightfire: so you mean only the physical basis for existence is pervasive?
    Yidam Nightfire: atomic if you will
    Eos Amaterasu: No, just that we're interdependent with the physical or what we call the physical
    Eos Amaterasu: we also arise out of interdependence
    Yidam Nightfire: that what i was saying or trying to
    Yidam Nightfire: i understand the first point but not your second about arising
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, can take that idea further? What constitutes non-physical?
    Eos Amaterasu: Oh, I think when we appreciate the presence of our own appearance
    Eos Amaterasu: (to ourselves)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    Yidam Nightfire: you mean the mental awarenss of our thoughts and memories then?
    Eos Amaterasu: we find that our identity(ies) arise out of many interdependencies
    Eos Amaterasu: our experience, which we can label as either mental or physical or whatever
    Eliza Madrigal: yes see that...so 'ideas' like the self..
    Yidam Nightfire: ah...the thoughts are dependent upon the physical?
    Eos Amaterasu: my thoughts get affected by food or lack of it, hormones, temperature, what I see...
    Yidam Nightfire: ok
    Yidam Nightfire: so you mean the thoughts are dependent upon mental and other sensory powers?
    Eos Amaterasu suspects we think we think our thoughts, but they just arise regardless
    Yidam Nightfire: sounds like you're implying that physical is what we impute upon the sensory input to our consciousness
    Eos Amaterasu: Something like that: Play as Being seems like a way to experience something like that...
    Yidam Nightfire: if that is true then you're saying the interdependencies are just between our sensory cognition?
    Eos Amaterasu: I like Varela's idea of autopoiesis, the organism in structural coupling with its environment
    Eliza Madrigal nods re PaB... interplay
    Eos Amaterasu: we can't go beyond our experience of our experience
    Eos Amaterasu: but we can sharpen or soften our awareness of experience
    Yidam Nightfire: you mean implying more to it than our sensory evidence suggests?
    Eos Amaterasu: and see the play of its origination, which includes the play of I and it
    Eos Amaterasu: How do you experience that, Yidam?
    Yidam Nightfire: experience what?
    Eos Amaterasu: what your were talking about re implying more than our sensory evidence suggests
    Yidam Nightfire: you were saying we sharpen or soften our awareness of experience..i wondered if you meant imputation or something else?
    Eos Amaterasu: well, the play of imputation seems to be part of it - we impute reality and qualities to things, to it, and to ourselves, to I
    Yidam Nightfire: impute to our sensory awareness of things you mean
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, maybe implying less too... or not at all
    Eos Amaterasu: or realizing how much we over-impute
    Eos Amaterasu: & relaxing
    Yidam Nightfire: perhaps like interconnectedness is imputed upon our sensory awarenss/
    Yidam Nightfire: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: I think it is something obvious we are blind to
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, it is a term (interconnectedness), could be a highly sophisticated term (pratitya sammutpada)
    Eliza Madrigal: but then I may not understand your question very well Yidam?
    Yidam Nightfire: i was just trying to understand the relationship of your interconnectedness to awareness ...how you experience it :)
    Yidam Nightfire: i see your point better now
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I arrived at it through noticing synchronicities personally....
    SophiaSharon Larnia nods
    Eliza Madrigal: and then in a less selfish way
    Eliza Madrigal: but the terms and images I've learned in the last several months certainly deepen that
    Eliza Madrigal: helpful friends :)
    Eos Amaterasu: language and little phrases and exercises help
    Eliza Madrigal nods...very much!!
    Pila Mulligan: earlier Eliza asked What constitutes non-physical?
    Eliza Madrigal: Stim's workshop has been more and more on this topic specifically too
    Pila Mulligan: did we approach an answer?
    Yidam Nightfire: physical would be those things we deduce exist from sensory evidence, and everything else is non-physical?
    Eliza Madrigal: but admitting that even what we experience as seeming non-physical seems dependent on physical
    Eliza Madrigal: ?
    Yidam Nightfire: how do you experience the non-physical?
    Pila Mulligan: is light physical?
    Eos Amaterasu: and is sensory evidence physical or non-physcial?
    Yidam Nightfire: you mean our sense of sight?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: how much are thoughts and memories physical, stored in neurons
    Pila Mulligan: light itself was my question, Eliza takes it to the next step, the eyes
    Yidam Nightfire: i actually have never seen a neuron haha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Eos Amaterasu wonders if Eos is physical or non-physical
    Pila Mulligan: Pema recently commented on the physics of massusing the terms electrons and photons
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    Pila Mulligan: mass *
    Yidam Nightfire: eos is a mental construct
    Pila Mulligan: using*
    Eos Amaterasu: who said that?
    Pila Mulligan: I wonder if we categorize physical as what physicists call mass
    Yidam Nightfire: good question
    Yidam Nightfire: i doubt it
    Eos Amaterasu: Yidam, your name is very interesting in that regard
    Eos Amaterasu: Is there a story there?
    Yidam Nightfire: physicists largely deal with elaboration mental constructions about sensory input
    Yidam Nightfire: elaborate
    Eliza Madrigal thinks this session is inching into the phenomenology session it nearly was :)
    Yidam Nightfire: they are the least phsyical of most people i know haha
    Eos Amaterasu: I think we categorize physical as that which is experiencable through certain senses


    Is light physical

    Pila Mulligan: is light physical?
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Pila Mulligan: not the seeing iwth the eyes, but the light itself
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
    Eos Amaterasu sees a Go Player approach
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pema
    Pila Mulligan: hi Pema
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Yidam Nightfire: its perceived with our vision.. a physical sense...so i vote yes
    Pema Pera: sorry to be so late
    Eos Amaterasu: np
    Pila Mulligan: Pema, is light physical?
    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Pema
    Yidam Nightfire: if you're talking about the concept of light its a mental thing?
    Pila Mulligan: no, photons
    Pema Pera: well, physical light is physical, consisting of photons, quantums of energy with zero rest mass
    Pila Mulligan: earlier Eliza asked What constitutes non-physical?
    Pema Pera: but if you are talking about other uses of the word light, it may not be . . . .
    Pila Mulligan: what is non-physical?
    Pema Pera: a dream?
    Pema Pera: a fantasy?
    Eos Amaterasu: SL?
    Pema Pera: is a painting physical?
    Pila Mulligan: so dream light is separate from photon light?
    Pema Pera: the pigments are, but not the picture perhaps?
    Eos Amaterasu: but I experience light in my dream
    SophiaSharon Larnia: interpretation
    Eliza Madrigal: well at some level experiecing the painting is a physical response?
    Pema Pera: the substratum is physical, of you and of the painting, yes
    Pema Pera: but you wouldn't call a wall in your dream physical, or would you?
    Eliza Madrigal: I an't answer no to that
    Eliza Madrigal: *can't
    Pema Pera: is the value of a dollar bill physical?
    Eos Amaterasu: Well, yes. I had the experience of lucid dreaming and flying through my bedroom door windows, and being surprised to expreience crashing, etc
    Pema Pera: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: value is what is mutually agreed upon?
    Pila Mulligan: would you say the memory of an image is less physical than the photons our eyes saw to record the image/memory?
    Eliza Madrigal: or rather, compositely
    Eos Amaterasu: interdependence
    Pema Pera: I guess we have to define "physical"
    Pila Mulligan: that was the question :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I should give you a note about some of what brought us here... hehe
    Pila Mulligan: what is non-physical implies what is physical :)
    Pema Pera: but the way it normally is used, I'd say: the substrate of your memory mechanism may be physical but your memory itself isn't, nor its contents
    Pila Mulligan: [19:50] Pila Mulligan: Pema recently commented on the physics of mass, using the terms electrons and photons [19:51] Pila Mulligan: I wonder if we categorize physical as what physicists call mass
    Eos Amaterasu: ditto for the substrate of vision and the vision itself, what you see
    Eos Amaterasu: we don't see photons; we see images
    Pema Pera: strictly speaking all our experiences are experiences that arise in our consciousness, and we label some of them as physical and others not . . . that is the everyday way of speaking
    Pema Pera: we say: I see a table
    Pema Pera: but in fact we don't experience a piece of matter
    Pema Pera: matter cannot be put into consciousness
    Pema Pera: we experience an experience of a table
    Pema Pera: an experience that we label table
    Pila Mulligan: this saying attributed to Confucius has been part of my contemplation recently: "Stop listening with your ears and listen with your mind. Then stop listening with your mind and listen with your primal spirit. Hearing is limited to the ear. Mind is limited to tallying things up. But the primal spirit is empty: it's simply that which awaits things."
    Pema Pera: I think that is the most accurate phenomenological description
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes Pila, what is the attentiveness that sees? that listens? that attends?
    Pema Pera: Yes, Pila, that is even better, but if we stay with everyday ways of looking, we don't need to go beyond that
    Pila Mulligan: that seems to reflect a progression from physical to nn-physical
    Pema Pera: there are then two questions
    Pema Pera: a) how do we use "physical" in every day speech
    Pema Pera: b) how can we widen/deepen our experience
    Pema Pera: I tried to address the first first
    Pema Pera: but the second is more interesting
    Pila Mulligan: this is why I wonder if we should categorize physical as what physicists call mass
    Pema Pera: no
    Pema Pera: energy is as physical as mass
    Pila Mulligan: why not?
    Pema Pera: E = mc^2 after all :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Luwella
    Pema Pera: Hi Luwella
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Luwella :)
    Luwella Clarity: hello
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Luwella
    Pila Mulligan: ok, can energy be non-physical?
    Pila Mulligan: in some form
    Pema Pera: again, that depends completely on what you mean with "energy" :-)
    Pila Mulligan: seems to me that mass is pretty much stuck with being physical
    Pila Mulligan: so energy as a corollary of mass
    Yidam Nightfire: isn't mass just a measurement?
    Pema Pera: that, too, depends on how you define "mass"
    Pila Mulligan: I cannot, I rely on you for that
    Pila Mulligan: just playing with the question, but seriously
    Pila Mulligan: looking for an answer
    Eliza Madrigal: there is still the experience of the mass... what's that? Is it physical? Seems to be in a way?
    Pema Pera: you see, people use words for whatever they like: some use "energy" for chi, some for physical calories -- you have to make a choice first!
    Pema Pera: you cannot express chi in calories :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I bet Pila could try
    Eos Amaterasu: Tangibility is an experience; I say I can touch the pillar, and it will not yield, so it's physical
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Pema Pera: but in a dream perhaps the pillar would not yield either . . . .
    Eos Amaterasu: very true
    Pila Mulligan: it seems ot me, in layman's terms, energy can more easily be non-physical
    Eliza Madrigal loves Pila's chi descriptions :)
    Luwella Clarity: if you were small enough, you would go right through the pillar, so how can it be a solid?
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: exactly!
    Pema Pera: yes, it's all a matter of perspective and definitons and use of the words
    Pema Pera: you can't just ask "what IS energy" as such
    Eos Amaterasu: if I had neutrino eyes I could see right thru you
    Pila Mulligan: Luwella, FYI, the earlier question was what is non-physical
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Luwella Clarity: thank you
    Eos Amaterasu: interdependence applies to physical and non-physical
    Eos Amaterasu: Yidam mentioned that mass was a measurement
    Eos Amaterasu: we can 't escape the act of observation
    Yidam Nightfire: was asking if it was
    Pila Mulligan: in layman's terms, energy seems less physical than mass
    Eliza Madrigal: but isn't energy/mass a false distinction... guess that's where levels of discussion/terms come in
    Pila Mulligan: bye Yidam
    Pila Mulligan: even physical/non-physical can be considered false insofar is it *is* a disntinction, but in simple terms and thoghts, we make that distinction nonehteless
    Pila Mulligan: shoots, we have all these words, we may as well use them :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera prefers to use words within a context that gives them meaning :-)
    Pila Mulligan: can we find such a context for physical/non-physical?
    Pila Mulligan: can we give them menaing?
    Luwella Clarity: isn't it a relative value?
    Pila Mulligan: it is an interesting question
    Pila Mulligan: it could well be Luwella
    Eliza Madrigal: At first we were talking about interrelatedness... so my thinking tended toward the point between experiencer and what is experienced? whether in dreams or reality?
    Eliza Madrigal: and of course there is no point....as such
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Ceciil
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cecil :)
    Pema Pera: well, if you ask me questions about phyics, I can give answers in terms of physics -- if you ask questions in terms of working with chi, that is a different matter, etc
    Cecil Aries: www
    Cecil Aries: hello
    Pema Pera: Hi Cecil
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Cecil
    Cecil Aries: did not think i would find ppl out here
    Pema Pera: meanwhile, lunch is coming up for me.
    Cecil Aries: i am new and just went walking around :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Pema
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye Pema!
    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao (chow)
    Eliza Madrigal: Or rather bye
    Pema Pera: see you all soon again -- and good luck in defining your terms :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Pila Mulligan: welcome to SecondLife Cecil
    Luwella Clarity: goodbye
    Luwella Clarity: Pema
    Eos Amaterasu: We are discussing being, nature of reality, here
    Eliza Madrigal: Cecil, you never know what you may find wandering
    SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I must go too, great conversation/subject matter :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye Sophia
    Pila Mulligan: bye SophiaSharon
    Eos Amaterasu: bye Sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Luwella Clarity: bye bye
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...all very interesting... though I feel we got a bit tangled :)
    Cecil Aries: thiers alot of reading
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe not... sometimes things clarify over time :)
    Luwella Clarity: tangled in what?
    Eliza Madrigal: Or maybe that's just me feeling a little scattered :)
    Cecil Aries: so you guys talk about what happens in the game?
    Eliza Madrigal: I think there's a point at which the coin turns when using terms like physical and energy
    Eos Amaterasu: We play the game, talk the game, are the game :l)
    Eliza Madrigal: and there is a gap there...a blind spot?
    Eliza Madrigal: :D
    Pila Mulligan: well, Pema also seemed to suggest it is relative -- to context and defintions
    Pila Mulligan: but that could be due to the blind spot :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eos Amaterasu: it's hard to see the player - that's perhaps the blind spot
    Luwella Clarity: we are blind to everything we cannot see
    Eos Amaterasu: when we see the player it's experience
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed.
    Luwella Clarity: so really, everyone is in a blind spot
    Eos Amaterasu: that blind spot is a curious thing
    Pila Mulligan: think of how deep science has delved into the physical world in the past century -- our great grandparents' generation was blind to all of that
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Pila Mulligan: in science at least
    Eos Amaterasu: science tells a great story
    Eliza Madrigal: I read a great quote earlier today...The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love." — Meister Eckhart
    Pila Mulligan: they may have had the same story in different contexts
    Pila Mulligan: and a little Bob Marly
    Cecil Aries: thanks for leting me sit here for a bit but must be on my way
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Cecil :) We're usually here at 1,7,1,7
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Cecil, see you again!
    Pila Mulligan: Cecil, do you mind of your comments are posted with this chat log on a website?
    Luwella Clarity: nice meeting you
    Pila Mulligan: if*
    Cecil Aries: sure np
    Pila Mulligan: your name can be deleted if you prefer
    Pila Mulligan: ok, thanks
    Eliza Madrigal should have signed off a while ago and now family is arriving home...
    Cecil Aries: have a good time and see you around
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye everyone!
    Pila Mulligan: have you met the same question yet, Luwella? about the log being posted?
    Luwella Clarity: no i haven't
    Pila Mulligan: do you mind if your comments get into the website record?
    Luwella Clarity: however, i have no problem with any of it
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Pila Mulligan: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Pila Mulligan: that's the website
    Luwella Clarity: k
    Luwella Clarity: sorry, I must get along now too - very nice meeting you and I would like to come back :-)
    Pila Mulligan: please do, it was nic eot meet you also
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Luwella!
    Pila Mulligan: bye for now
    Luwella Clarity: bye
    Pila Mulligan: well, Eos, your sesssion was fairly extended tonight
    Pila Mulligan: I enjoyed it and a bowl of popcorn also -- kind of like a movie
    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, yes, people appeared, & we appreciated that... :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: are we done for now?
    Eos Amaterasu: WEll, I will also turn in...
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, good night, Pila!
    Pila Mulligan: see you next time then
    Eos Amaterasu: (or afternoon)
    Pila Mulligan: late afternoon :)
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