2009.08.16 01:00 - To speak or not/golden or silver

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Susi Alcott--. The comments are by Susi Alcott--.

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    --BELL--

    Want only to add my thanx for Bertram and Arch to come to the meeting; feel free to add thoughts of your own;

    Thank you Bertram and Archmage for the beutiful time _/!\_

    Susi Alcott

    Bertram Jacobus: hi susi - good morning from here ! ... :-)
    Susi Alcott: Good morning frome here too :)
    Bertram Jacobus: may i ask, where you live ?
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Bertram Jacobus: okay ... and why you have a female name but a male avatar ?
    Susi Alcott: Susi = wolf :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hm. i fear, i don´t understand that . is it in a certain language, that susi means wolf ?
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: ah okay. but you know that in other languages it is a female name - no : forget the question. you will i guess ... ;o)
    Susi Alcott: I didn't know when this account was created
    Bertram Jacobus: oh
    Susi Alcott: knew only 'suzy' and such
    Bertram Jacobus: ah ok
    Bertram Jacobus: ty for the explanation ! :-)
    Susi Alcott: that is 'my' nick name cuz of special love for wolfs
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. i see. there are some people who like them very much . . .
    Susi Alcott: they could also 'teach' people much
    Susi Alcott: I dont mean to lower the value of human kind
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s great !
    Susi Alcott: Hello Archmage
    Bertram Jacobus: hello arch ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: "but" wouldn´t it be thinkable that humans confront us with more difficult teachings ?
    Susi Alcott: I'm sorrry I dont have the translator...I dont understand the word 'confront'...
    Susi Alcott: but ...do you mean that it's an other human who gives difficult teaching to an other human being ?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. in general. that humans sometimes bring us difficult teachings. and the "teachings fom the wolfes" are not so heavy and hard (?)
    Susi Alcott: I agree with you 130 %
    Bertram Jacobus: *smile* ... :-))
    Susi Alcott: have you thought why that ---generally speaking---happenes ?
    Bertram Jacobus: no. i try to - *thinking* ...
    Susi Alcott: may I share few reasons ?
    Bertram Jacobus: sure ! please do so !
    Susi Alcott: the most common reason to try to rule ower the other person
    Bertram Jacobus: *still thinking* ...
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: and feeling ... ;-)
    Archmage Atlantis: May I add a thought Susi?
    Susi Alcott: of chorse
    Archmage Atlantis: Other humans are the most complex entities each of us encounters in daily life, .....Each has e's own presence in tne creation which is unique
    Archmage Atlantis: Hence, each brings more complex lessions to the others
    Bertram Jacobus: i like that idea
    Archmage Atlantis: I am glad
    Bertram Jacobus: but thought alos : "to rule over others" - isn´t it a law of nature among others ?
    Bertram Jacobus: also*
    Susi Alcott: with my saying I ment them people who gives those difficult lessons knowingly
    Susi Alcott: that natural law of life is freedom
    Bertram Jacobus: and wolfes AND humans "do that" ?
    Susi Alcott: each person has got the free will to chooce
    Susi Alcott: wolfs do not do that
    Bertram Jacobus: but what about the "right of the strongest" ? - not only, but also ?
    Archmage Atlantis: As the creation exists, there is dominance and submiission, eating and being eaten,
    Susi Alcott: but yes; you are right that the will to own is natural need to human beings
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. that is what i meant arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Free will allows a different choice for the future of creation
    Susi Alcott: that still does not 'give' the naturall right for people to base there choices to that need
    Archmage Atlantis: No, Susi, it does not
    Susi Alcott: sure; when that ruling over is chooced also by the one who is ruled over
    Susi Alcott: all is well
    Susi Alcott: as there is also the need to be ruled over within many people
    Bertram Jacobus: and besides : (but i have not the impression that the words "free" and "will" really fit together) ... ;o)
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, I would say all works, to say it is well is a judgement I would not choose
    Susi Alcott: do you Bert mean, that when one is leaded by own will, one already is the 'prisoner' ?
    Susi Alcott: prisoner to own will ?
    Archmage Atlantis: Will = the motivation to do something
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Archmage Atlantis: Free = tho ability to chose or not chose to follow that motivation
    Archmage Atlantis: *the
    Bertram Jacobus: yes susi. because it seems to me to be a relative aspect or topic or thing. freedom on the other hand i see as absolute ultimately
    Susi Alcott: I agree with you Bert in that too
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Susi Alcott: I have used to say to people, that I do not have own will
    Susi Alcott: because that's the expression that most of my known people have been able to understand
    Archmage Atlantis: Bert. absolute means to you what?
    Susi Alcott: but I thankfully also have unnumbered friend that do understand the base, that my true will honesty is the other persons will
    Bertram Jacobus: not expressable. only to be experienced for sake arch. like, as an example also tastes like marmelade can´t be expressed fully
    --BELL--
    Susi Alcott: on the other hand, to think what freedom is and how that can come true
    Susi Alcott: is also the 'thing' that has many opinions
    Archmage Atlantis: Ok, I believe it is expressible, but I accept your explanation for yourself Bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. would you then please express it arch ?
    Susi Alcott: but not so many people have I met that understands that true freedom can come true only with rules/controll
    Susi Alcott: so that it can exist to all participants
    Archmage Atlantis: You moved to the crux quickly Susi
    Bertram Jacobus: interesting topics susi and arch :-)
    Susi Alcott: can you Arch say that 'crux' some other way ?
    Bertram Jacobus: and nice sights as well :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: i feel very well with this here once again ... (ty)
    Archmage Atlantis: The core of the thing
    Archmage Atlantis: "sights" = ?
    Bertram Jacobus: perspectives ?
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah,, insights
    Susi Alcott: ah...I think I now understand what you Arch ment
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. ty and sry. again and again some problems with the english language *small sigh* ... ;-)
    Susi Alcott: ah Bert
    Susi Alcott: dont worry
    Archmage Atlantis: Just don't ask me to say anything in German or Finnish
    Bertram Jacobus: no no :o)
    Archmage Atlantis: Home team advantage
    Archmage Atlantis: *smile*
    Susi Alcott: thinking Bert that you got an answer from Arch...as Arch didn't know that it was not told yet that I'm from Finland
    Susi Alcott: in publick I mean
    Bertram Jacobus: but arch : again : could you please write, how you would express the "absolute" ? i was very interested in this -
    Bertram Jacobus: i took a clue from his words susi but now it´s even more clear. ty :-)
    Susi Alcott: well; maybe I should thank Arck to 'resolve' one problem
    Bertram Jacobus: did somebody of you give me an object just now ? (there came something here) ...
    Archmage Atlantis: I have to look back, a moment.......And I forget I know of you Susi, but you and I haven't interacted much yet
    Susi Alcott: I did not
    Archmage Atlantis: Nor I
    Bertram Jacobus: i wonder where they also come from. may be from groups ... i was in some times ago (?) ...
    Susi Alcott: well; might it be the time to 'let go of all' cuz all of the people for whom I would've wish the 'publick secret' to remain
    Susi Alcott: do already know of Susi and Star
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes
    Susi Alcott: so; like you Arch often say; what a heck :)***
    Susi Alcott: ah yes Bert; many creators also gives presents if you have bought something that they have your Av's name on there list
    Archmage Atlantis: Bertram's quote was "reedom on the other hand i see as absolute ultimately"
    Susi Alcott: but...well...may I ask you Bert, that why you asked of my name, but not about why I have male Av ?
    Archmage Atlantis: *freedom
    Bertram Jacobus: i asked that susi (!) - wait - i´ll try to find the words again (*scrolling*) ... ;-)
    Susi Alcott: smiles :)*
    Bertram Jacobus: [1:02] Bertram Jacobus: okay ... and why you have a female name but a male avatar ?
    Susi Alcott: the 'object' in the sentece is 'female name', not the 'male Av'
    Susi Alcott: lol
    Bertram Jacobus: sorry - i meant that as two objects ... hm ... so easy to be misunderstood ...
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Susi Alcott: hoping you dont worry
    Susi Alcott: one can always ask more
    Susi Alcott: but yes; the word 'but' should've been 'and'...
    Susi Alcott: but ok; that about that
    Susi Alcott: words are often huge much too poor even with the best way to use them
    --BELL--
    Susi Alcott: but yes; my reason was to lower the effect of my existence with female Av, and as monk ---specially buddhist monk---is part of me
    Susi Alcott: I had not difficulties to use this Av, which cooled many peoples attitude to me; got the low profile
    Archmage Atlantis: Where I see male and female as of this reality, thus I use the pronoun e often, meaning "entity'
    Bertram Jacobus: entity is nice. but still arch, i´m mising your explanation in relation to the "bsolute topic" (or did i only not be aware of it and you wrote already?)
    Archmage Atlantis: And speak of the Creator of All Things as "E"
    Archmage Atlantis: No, I have never made further comment
    Bertram Jacobus: so would you, please ? or am i too insisting ?
    Archmage Atlantis: There is absolute freedom, but freedom is never absolute
    Bertram Jacobus: could you explain that a bit. i don´t yet understand
    Archmage Atlantis: In my being (soul, essence, etc) I can experience the absolute freedom of the forces of the universe, but my body, behaviour, and other elements of this world must acknowlege the rules, structure, realities of this or any world
    Bertram Jacobus: ok. i see. that is understandable to me :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and i agree . but i´m not sure about the experience of the absolute freedom i would like to add
    Archmage Atlantis: Less poetic though, but heck, poetry is not so easy to follow *chuckle*
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s only a very nice thought and hope for me ... a way to handle relativity,too. a kind of medicine, as i said already : hope (can´t better express it again) ... *small sigh* ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: oh mom - tel here
    Susi Alcott: smiles _/!\_
    Archmage Atlantis: Someone calls with a message of significance
    Susi Alcott: well; I got an insight there 'one day'...that how I had written such truth that I realized even myself completely a bit later on
    Archmage Atlantis: It is not a linear process
    Susi Alcott: as I had said; 'people cannot read', meaning basicly the 'between lines'
    Susi Alcott: but soon I realized that there is common problems to read even the words
    Bertram Jacobus: yes - really ! it was my mother and i am thinking about a question : i had a very heavy problem with a neighbour here, very sad and don´t know wheather to tell my old mother. what do you think ? i don´t want that she worries but she wants to hear how i feel (!?)
    Susi Alcott: specially if english is not 'own' language
    --BELL--
    Susi Alcott: in case I may say; again I wanna highlight that to know the truth is essential better than not to know
    Susi Alcott: no matter what kind that truth is
    Archmage Atlantis: It is good, Bartram, that you can look back, and see more deeply into what you have said/observed
    Bertram Jacobus: somebody has a clue to my very real problem how to handle that with my mom ?
    Susi Alcott: well...how to tell; dont worry, when one worrys for the natural charachter ?
    Archmage Atlantis: You already know..l..which option will make your Mother the least happy?
    Bertram Jacobus: okay arch and susi - ty
    Susi Alcott: I have met also such moms and sons who feels deep hate to each other knowingly
    Susi Alcott: yet; I have not met any mom or son who's not addmitted that they ---'in the end'
    Susi Alcott: love and worry for each other
    Susi Alcott: I was once asked that if people must prepare themself to be able to hear the tough truth when they come to me...
    Susi Alcott: that question 'stunned' me for a minute ...about...
    Susi Alcott: then I told an example why I have more than strong belief and trust, that the truth is always better to know
    Susi Alcott: of the parents who's lost there child to unknown
    Susi Alcott: as even to such parents the truth that there child has died, has been relief
    Susi Alcott: you see Bert; in her soul and spirit your mom already knows...
    Susi Alcott: so,,,the truth is 'there' within her already
    Susi Alcott: but maybe not in her 'awaken' awareness; the earthly mind
    Susi Alcott: so; there can be 'chaos' for that...not to know and feel that..
    Archmage Atlantis: truth begats pain at times, and also more truth....untruth is a profiic breeder of more untruth..and eventually the pain is felt anyway, maybe worse that it would have been
    Susi Alcott: when the person feels that the truth has given pain; there's adds of something that is not truth; with this I mean things themself; not for example pain in the body for accedent
    Archmage Atlantis: I is our fear of pain, for ourselves and for others, that creates the way of the coward
    Susi Alcott: when this 'I' is huge ego with selfishness
    Bertram Jacobus: so you don´t agree to the sentence which says that "to talk is silver but to hold his tongue - gold" ? ... (sometimes i like to add) ...
    Susi Alcott: I agree with that; basicly there is nothing wrong
    Susi Alcott: but it dont tell if the gold is more valued that the silver
    Susi Alcott: gold is the symbol of spiritual strength; gold is 'everywhere'
    Susi Alcott: and can be separated always to be itself, as it never joins perfectly to anything else
    Susi Alcott: like spirit is untouchable
    Susi Alcott: silver is the symbol of joy
    Susi Alcott: it gives itself to anything
    Susi Alcott: gives the strength to anything
    Susi Alcott: turnes to be that anything
    Susi Alcott: so; it's a question of the purpose....
    --BELL--
    Susi Alcott: just that most of the people gives 'automatickly' more value to gold than silver,,,so; might that saying have 'served' much the wrong way ...
    Susi Alcott: also I mean
    Archmage Atlantis: Only you can decide what is silver and what is gold, to stay within the metaphor
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: yet; wanna answer to the question I felt from you Bert;
    Susi Alcott: and to that I say that I disagree
    Archmage Atlantis: One might think holding one's tougue before telling a "ugly" person they are ugly is the god
    Susi Alcott: cuz there's many things when it's better to speak out, but as well many things that is better to keep the silence
    Susi Alcott: ah; reminds me of the advies in Quran, that the husband must lie if the wife is ugly
    Archmage Atlantis: But I wold say, failing to see their real beauty as and entity is the problem
    Archmage Atlantis: *as an
    Archmage Atlantis: Then to tell them of that reality is truely the gold
    Susi Alcott: feels again this 'must to share'....that there is not absolut truth that could 'cover' all and everything, that there is always the base truth of each thing, and the truth of the moment
    Susi Alcott: imho
    Archmage Atlantis: So Bartram, you stated "when this 'I' is huge ego with selfishness" ..... how does that play into the issue?
    Susi Alcott: ah Arch; that was my add to you lines
    Archmage Atlantis: How does that affect what you perceivie>
    Susi Alcott: that it was only my add to 'complete' your sentence that I could agree with you
    Archmage Atlantis: Thank you,....still I think it has reference to Bartram's decision
    Archmage Atlantis: Tho he did not say it
    Susi Alcott: [02:11 AM] Archmage Atlantis: I is our fear of pain, for ourselves and for others, that creates the way of the coward [02:11 AM] Susi Alcott: when this 'I' is huge ego with selfishness
    Archmage Atlantis: Frankly, I think he went to sleep
    Bertram Jacobus: i stated "when this 'I' is huge ego with selfishness" arch ? no -
    Archmage Atlantis: Ooops, movement
    Archmage Atlantis: So Bartram, are you any closer to a decison?
    Susi Alcott: it's good to remember also that sometimes even the chat do not work out, but continues after a while
    Bertram Jacobus: sure. i was as i that ty to you both ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: said
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Archmage Atlantis: De nada
    --BELL--
    Susi Alcott: smiles; Arch; the 'walking library' of religions, cultures and sooo much else
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, Susi, is it time to beginning my day, and moving on with yours....I don't the realtive time for you Bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: i´ll leave - have a good time and may all beings be happy ...
    Archmage Atlantis: Blessings, Bertram...May the creator guide you in all things
    Archmage Atlantis: Later Gator
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Archmage Atlantis: I would go also Susi, there was a hugh emotional blow up next door
    Susi Alcott: wishing all good to you too Arch :)

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