2009.10.04 13:00 - AI (artificial intelligence)

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

    This session drew about a dozen people who gathered over the first 15 minutes or so.  It seemed difficult to get a conversation going about PaB issues, but spontaneous discussion did arise about a number of issues including artificial intelligence.  The text will speak for itself.  (I have deleted many of the introductions to allow focus on the main topics discussed) 

    Maxine Walden: we may still be gathering, but are there some PaB issues, observations for us to consider?
    Pema Pera: sure, I'd love to discuss those
    Maxine Walden: :)

    A few minutes later I try again.

    Maxine Walden: we were just wondering about some PaB observations or topics....
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I just read the emails you sent Pema, and am so invigorated :))
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: glad to hear that, SophiaSharon!
    Maxine Walden: yes :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes its exciting stuff


    Several more greetings and entry of participants

    Pema Pera: Maxine, do you want to start the discussion?
    Maxine Walden: I asked if anyone has observations, or issues re PaB earlier
    Maxine Walden: and it seemed we were still gathering...but maybe we can ask the question again, with such a full house
    --BELL--
    doug Sosa: i've been thinking about when the world of the 9 sec is more attractive and when RL is more attractive, or maybe the word is "compelling".
    Maxine Walden: care to say more, doug?
    doug Sosa: I could say no..
    doug Sosa: but that isn't very friendly. I think..
    doug Sosa: i mean it just that way. most of the time
    doug Sosa: i love to go into the 9 sec, but sometimes
    doug Sosa: the normal world is jjust so... there.
    doug Sosa: and wants play. I have a new ofice..
    Pila Mulligan: hello Eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello everyone :)
    doug Sosa: and my mind wants to go there.
    doug Sosa: not for the decoration but for the use.
    sophia Placebo: Hi Eliza
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    doug Sosa: We saved a place for you :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Eli :-)
    Mickorod Renard: hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks much :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey gaya :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :)
    sophia Placebo: hello gaya :)
    arabella Ella: hiya Gaya
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Gaya
    Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya
    Gaya Serendipity: Hello :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: do you mean metaphorically, Doug, or literally?
    Mickorod Renard: I must admit, I am having trouble breaking away from the fun I have at work to do the 9 seconds
    Pila Mulligan: somethings really seem to capture our interest, especially new things
    arabella Ella: why this human craving for novelty i wonder?
    arabella Ella: or for distractions?
    Maxine Walden: I had an experience during this just past 9 sec practice...of just being aware of heartbeat and pulse...sometimes the mundane rythyms of life seem too plain
    Fox Monacular: Hello everyone
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Fox
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Fox
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox :)
    arabella Ella: hiya Fox
    sophia Placebo: hi fox
    Pila Mulligan: hello Fox
    doug Sosa: kind of like gilbert and sullivan.. :)
    Maxine Walden: and 'novelty' distracts?
    Mickorod Renard: its conditioning I guess?
    Eos Amaterasu: Often it's not novelty, but repetitive stuff
    Maxine Walden: we may be speaking about how 'fun and games' can distract us from basic awarenesses
    Maxine Walden: (stopped the conversation?)

    Pema asks a question

    Pema Pera: can I do a quick poll?
    Maxine Walden: please
    Pema Pera: For a weekly guardian meeting
    Pema Pera: we used to have Sundays 8 am SLT
    Pema Pera: but Pila just emailed me that 5 am is too early for him
    Pema Pera: how about 2 pm SLT
    Pema Pera: would that work for everybody?
    Pema Pera: who can *not* come at 2 pm SLT?
    Maxine Walden: I have another meeting then
    Mickorod Renard: 2 pm is ok with me
    Pila Mulligan: that may be late in Europe -- its this round world thing
    Pema Pera: (though perhaps those who can't, can't be here at 1 pm either :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: 2pm is very late
    sophia Placebo: me :)
    arabella Ella: its fine with me
    Pila Mulligan: ... but fine with me
    Pema Pera: it may be impossible to get one time for everybody
    Mickorod Renard: 2 pm would be 11pm for you Yaku
    Mickorod Renard: i think
    arabella Ella: yes Yaku immediately after PaB
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i have to get up at 7:30 pdt in the morning
    Mickorod Renard: ahh you young ones,,no staying power
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but keep it at 2 pm
    doug Sosa: ok.
    Pema Pera: an alternative would be 12 noon on Sunday
    Gaya Serendipity: I can't do 12 noon SLT - I have Tibetan class.
    arabella Ella: that would clash with Gaya's WoK meeting
    arabella Ella: right Gaya?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: (why can't we live on a flat earth?)
    Mickorod Renard: which many of us attend
    SophiaSharon Larnia: either one, would miss 1 out of 3 so either is fine with me :)
    Gaya Serendipity: Sorry I have Tibetan at 10 am then WoK meeting at noon.
    Maxine Walden: 12 noon Sunday would work for me
    sophia Placebo: 2 hold a possibility , 12 noon hold non for me
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so 2pm is fine
    Pema Pera: well, this gives me an impression; we can do the rest by email
    Pema Pera: thank you!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: there is a problem at anytime for anyone
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: so we'll choose two times
    --BELL--
    Maxine Walden: we are about to have a 90 sec pause, shall we see what we experience?

    But we are not onto PaB issues it seems, but rather important scheduling

    Eliza Madrigal: Perhaps alternating would be a good idea... biweekly... morning/afternoon?
    Eliza Madrigal: one week early, the next later?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Mickorod Renard: thats a good idea
    Eos Amaterasu likes that idea
    Maxine Walden: if we can keep the weeks straight
    Eliza Madrigal: :) well yes that would be helpful
    Gaya Serendipity leaves quietly. RL calls, good night :)
    Eos Amaterasu: 'night bunny
    Mickorod Renard: bye gaya
    Maxine Walden: but it would give everyone a chance to come at least once every two weeks or so
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Gaya
    sophia Placebo: bye gaya
    Maxine Walden: you know, maybe we are talking about concrete and practical things about meeting times, etc because it is difficult to find a meeting place with our practice
    Maxine Walden: we have so many things that distract us
    Maxine Walden: not to say the practicals are not important, just so much easier to talk about
    Pema Pera: :)
    arabella Ella: if i may be permitted to change the topic

    Arabella asks a question which begins the discussion which will consider artificial intelligence, but of course other things as well

    arabella Ella: i would like an opinion from all here
    Maxine Walden: of course, ara
    arabella Ella: on what you think the future of higher education will be
    arabella Ella: say in 10 to 15 years time?
    arabella Ella: like a huge leap in to the future ... visions ... scenarios?
    Mickorod Renard: unless we save the planet it wont be needed
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: lets assume the planet will still be here
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Eos Amaterasu: I would hope it would include more practice of how to hold our minds, our selves, which in turn are what are holding our planet
    Eos Amaterasu: (& the interesting vice-versa question....)
    arabella Ella: yes
    doug Sosa: Two scenarios: one, it kind of falls apart into small movements, like monestaries, local and spiritual and pragmatic.
    doug Sosa: the other
    Fox Monacular: it would be nice if after specialization (like now) came integration and interdisciplinarity
    doug Sosa: is that it is an even tighter strugle as a path into the elite and authoritarian control
    arabella Ella: you seem to be reading my mind there Fox
    arabella Ella: i was gonna ask ... will it be more comparmentalised or more interdisciplinary?
    arabella Ella: interesting doug
    arabella Ella: please say more if u cud
    Fox Monacular: hopefully interdisciplinary, but now I see growing divides
    doug Sosa: The rpoblem with interdisciplinary is that neurology, tied to atificail intelligence ( i just got an email about a symposium on "outsourcing your memory" )
    arabella Ella: yes ... unfortunately IMHO
    doug Sosa: will be the dominant integrating disciplie until it braks down from leaving out too much.
    arabella Ella: leaving out too much ... dont you think many more questions will be answered doug?
    arabella Ella: dont we always widen the goal posts once we achieve our aims ... making the target increasingly more difficult to achieve?
    doug Sosa: no. we all too often narrow.
    arabella Ella: will memory still play an important role in higher education ... or will skills take over?
    doug Sosa: Look at how "finance" excluded economics, that is, wealth, resources and the rst of the real world.
    arabella Ella: IMHO in AI we often widen the goal posts
    Mickorod Renard: my thoughts too Doug
    Eos Amaterasu: we need to discover and then address our blind spots (as in finance)
    Eliza Madrigal: Have a lovely rest of Sunday everyone :) Bye for now
    arabella Ella: is that being done in HE you think Eos?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
    Mickorod Renard: Bye Eliza
    sophia Placebo: bye eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eliza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night/bye everyone
    Mickorod Renard: nite Yaku
    sophia Placebo: bye yak
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Yakuzza, I must go too, take care everyone :)
    Mickorod Renard: AFC
    sophia Placebo: bye sophias
    Pila Mulligan: by SophiaSharon
    --BELL--
    Pila Mulligan: I'm unfamiliar with how atificial intelligence relates to education these days ... (?)
    arabella Ella: doug brought up the topic of AI
    arabella Ella: as he said neurology and AI are ... need to look up his comment there :)
    doug Sosa: ther is a field called "developmental neurology."
    arabella Ella: (My memory ...)
    Pila Mulligan: :) I thoung AI was just an abstraction for software
    arabella Ella: as far as i know AI is mostly focussed on in IT faculties
    doug Sosa: It is fascinating, and a bit narrow.
    Pila Mulligan: could you elaboarate a bit, please, doug?
    doug Sosa: Not easy. The drive is to make models of the brain, that take into account the new developments in understanding neirons. So, is this reductionistic? Last week, anotehr symposium on "we can now simulate 1 billion neurons interacting in real time. This is jjust a factor of ten from the real brain.." not the slip from one realm to another.
    doug Sosa: Now, look at where the funding comes from, big pharma and military and homeland security.
    doug Sosa: not=note
    arabella Ella: that is scarey doug
    arabella Ella: as they all have specific agendas
    arabella Ella: which may limit authentic research
    arabella Ella: authentic ... in the sense of opposite of agenda based
    doug Sosa: yes, and education is not one of them except to the extent there are opportnities to replace some of education with drugs and (what, inplants, programming..?)
    Fox Monacular: I think AI now is more than computational brain model... they incorporate subjectivity and artistic research too now
    arabella Ella: and ... the question arises ... should educational funding come from such sources in the future ... or are other options open?
    Pila Mulligan: I'm already bothered by genetic modification, now to add brain imitation :)
    doug Sosa: Sure, lets get computers to be crative. just a question of programming, right?
    arabella Ella: i dont mind the idea of implants ... our cell phones are already a sort of prosthetic device with additional memory as are our laptops
    Fox Monacular: no, what I mean is that AI is now slowly getting away from the ghost in the machine
    Fox Monacular: at least some people in AI
    arabella Ella: and whether computers are creative is just a matter of what definition you give to creative
    Eos Amaterasu: problem is _we_ tend to become artificially intelligent
    Pema Pera: I'll have to leave, I'm afraid. See you all soon!
    Eos Amaterasu: we create a simplified model, and then model ourselves on that
    doug Sosa: But ther is a ghost in the machine, and they don;t want us to beleieve it. it is all rpogrammable, skripted, aganet modules..
    Fox Monacular: for example articles in Artificial Intelligence and Society journal are often really interdisciplinary and talk about phenomenology and subjectivity and social systems and such
    sophia Placebo: bye pema
    Eos Amaterasu: "authentic" research - the "authentic" part is also a practice
    Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
    Mickorod Renard: bye Pema
    arabella Ella: bye Pema
    doug Sosa: Not interdiscipinary, more overreach of empire.
    Fox Monacular: some are interdisciplinary :)

    I have to go as well, and as usual the conversation continues

    Maxine Walden: I will have to go as well. see you all soon.
    sophia Placebo: bye max
    Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine
    Fox Monacular: but it's a minority, yes
    Eos Amaterasu: bye Maxi
    Fox Monacular: bye Maxine
    Mickorod Renard: bye max
    Fox Monacular: what I meant is that not all AI people are concerned with ghost in the machine anymore
    arabella Ella: most are not
    sophia Placebo: my brain circuts start to shut down i guess , night all !
    doug Sosa: These are profoundly diiffcult questions, either because they upset our epistemology, or they upset our career paths.
    arabella Ella: nite sophia
    Pila Mulligan: bye Sophia :)
    Eos Amaterasu: true, Fox, but that needs to start reaching the halls of power
    Mickorod Renard: nite sofia
    Eos Amaterasu: probably dire necessity will be the only way
    arabella Ella: yea Eos ... reaching the halls of power ... what a difficult enterprise that would be :)
    Fox Monacular: I'm working with some people in AI, and it is really interesting, they do responsive media, phenomenological experiments and total events
    arabella Ella: sounds intruiging to me Fox ... would love to hear more
    Fox Monacular: but these are marginal people in academia... not industry-driven
    Eos Amaterasu needs to connect with Fox on that work
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah yes, Fox
    Eos Amaterasu: but there is a meeting point
    Fox Monacular: hopefully:)
    arabella Ella: yes needs to connect with Fox too
    Eos Amaterasu: because the people doing corporate change management, are starting to realize the need to address the "blind spot": subjectivity
    arabella Ella: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: eg. MIT Society for Organiational Learning
    Eos Amaterasu: "Presencing", as presented by Otto Scharmer, etc
    Fox Monacular: I work with some poeple in topological media lab in concordia, they are not AI per ce but publish in AI journals
    doug Sosa: I was at the foubding meeting of SOL.
    arabella Ella: cool
    Fox Monacular: topologicalmedialab.net
    Eos Amaterasu: ALIA Institute - which in our vocabullary is how to lead from Being
    Fox Monacular: also, a journal that I mentioned before, AI and society publishes some pretty cool stuff
    Fox Monacular: http://www.springer.com/computer/artificial/journal/146
    --BELL--
    Pila Mulligan: thanks for the link Fox
    Eos Amaterasu: Also, there's openings to introduce symbiosis into software itself
    Fox Monacular: As the 21st Century dawns, a gap is emerging between the reality of the rapidly evolving 'information society' and the humanistic vision of developing socially useful technologies which deal with wider societal issues. AI & Society provides an international forum for analysis of these conflicts and dilemmas, and a focus for a growing community committed to the 'knowledge society' and to 'human-centered' technologies and systems.
    Fox Monacular: that's from AI and society
    arabella Ella: thanks Fox
    arabella Ella: and from what i can see it is an open source journal too right?
    Fox Monacular: sorry to interrupt 90 sec
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fox Monacular: I don't know about open source... I always access it through university account:)
    arabella Ella: oh ok now i see
    arabella Ella: it got me through cos i am using my uni IP
    Eos Amaterasu: Nah, DRM .... sucks
    arabella Ella: so it recognised it immediately :)
    Fox Monacular: So perhaps AI is not not so much about how to simulate human brain but rather how to build machines that we will interact with
    Pila Mulligan: DRM?
    Eos Amaterasu: Digital Rights Management - locks you out of publically funded research
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    arabella Ella: yes Fox I agree ... so many practical things AI could be so useful for
    Pila Mulligan: for the definiiotn
    Eos Amaterasu: part of my interest in PaB is that I see it, or something like it, as essential practice of us as human beings if we are to survive
    Eos Amaterasu: the results of our ill-considered actions are just too huge
    Eos Amaterasu: so how do we "well-consider"?
    Eos Amaterasu: Delphi: know thyself
    arabella Ella: that is a huge question Eos
    Fox Monacular: sorry everyone, I have to leave
    Pila Mulligan: Eos, we are about to shift over to the village to consider the common area between arabella, Mick and me
    Mickorod Renard: bye Fox
    Fox Monacular: thanks for the great discussion
    Pila Mulligan: oops
    Eos Amaterasu: Thanks Fox
    Pila Mulligan: so much for the plan
    arabella Ella: bye Eos
    Pila Mulligan: we can stay then
    arabella Ella: we should bring up this topic again soon ok?
    Fox Monacular: yes, definitely
    Pila Mulligan: it was to try to squeeze some time in befiore Fox had to go
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: sounds intiguing
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,going to Ara's plot
    Eos Amaterasu: Okay... see you all soon.. bye!
    Mickorod Renard: nice seeing you Eos
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    arabella Ella: bye
    Pila Mulligan: forward, then
    Mickorod Renard: or come with us
    Eos Amaterasu: I'll be there later tonight.... int he village
    Pila Mulligan: see you then Eos :)
    Mickorod Renard: great
    Pila Mulligan: bye for onw
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