2009.10.16 07:00 - Heart Desires and Ruleness

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal filling in for Quen. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    Today I was joined by Corvi and Archmage. Archmage was rather quiet, while Corvi and I discussed (now that I consider it in retrospect) human nature.  

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Corvi! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: What a great jacket
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hey, Eliza!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks.
    Eliza Madrigal: How are you today? I'm still waking...
    Eliza Madrigal: sipping coffee :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: same.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sleeeeepy...I'm loving your dress, where did that come from?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm...
    Eliza Madrigal: I think a little SL Paris shop :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: heh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm almost sure... because there was something really nice about strolling along there....
    Eliza Madrigal: pretending :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..that does sound lovely.
    Eliza Madrigal: So tell me, what's on your mind today?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmmm...hmmmm....
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    --BELL--

    Corvi and I were quiet for a bit and then...


    Eliza Madrigal: Well I can share a bit of what I was thinking about this morning....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire listens.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking about 'higher desires"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: higher desires?
    Eliza Madrigal: Meaning, that we often talk about ethics and decisions to make in life in terms of rules...
    Eliza Madrigal: but I think we are actually pulled by a kind of hiearchy of desires...
    Eliza Madrigal: which brings me to a kind of consideration of what 'heart desires' are
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks about this. "they are certainly an easier way of running life"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: desire instead of rules.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what were you thinking about heart desires?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... I mean rules may be necessary... but I wonder about our natural inclinations....
    Eliza Madrigal: what happens when we aren't so suspicious of them and begin to look at them more deeply
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles, nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: really facing our hearts, in a way, with love.
    Eliza Madrigal: This is just the beginnings of a question, but does it make sense?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it makes alot of sense to me.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks
    Eliza Madrigal thinks too
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sort of taking a close, non judgemental look at them?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly

    Oh, this might have been a great title...


    Corvuscorva Nightfire: scary thing, desires.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's hard to take a close look at something so scary.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: one might prefer to run
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or hide
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... this is so much what I was thinking
    Eliza Madrigal: there is a sense I think that the more deeply and fearlessly one is able to delve... that maybe some of the rule-level things sort themselves out
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods thoughtfully.
    Eliza Madrigal: in a way even, that does less and less 'harm'
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Archmage
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..."Hi, Archmage
    Eliza Madrigal: Corvi and I were talking a little bit about heart desires
    Archmage Atlantis: Hiya, I come to be in peace....please continue as it provides peace for me to hear of life
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, so might there be a a bit of trust involved that at the heart level there is a kind of basic goodness...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but what is good?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, there...hmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: rule following ness?
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh I hope not...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: me too. there are far too many rules.
    Eliza Madrigal nods...yes too many to keep up with surely
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..."I'm a compulsive rule follower"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it is a painful curse.
    Eliza Madrigal nods... yes, do you itch when you arrive late somewhere?
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, looks downcast.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    --BELL--

    Is there such a thing? What is Goodness...

    Oh, and Robert's Rules...


    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm pretty sure "rule following" is not goodness.
    Eliza Madrigal nods.... thinks
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: in fact..it can easily be the opposite of anything that seems to me to be good.
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, it is a kind of outer imposition which overrides something essential at times... shuts down conversation even?
    Eliza Madrigal: (Like the blue Arch... dazzling)
    Eliza Madrigal: Is there more you can say Corvi? Snapshot_038.jpg
    Corvuscorva Nightfire considers...."in real life I run a meeting once a month..officially by robert's rules of order"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the good thing is...I have no real knowledge of what those are..I've avoided reacding more than the first page of the book.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so...I use two or three tools, but avoid using the "rules"
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes I'm somewhat familiar with Robert's Rules, having watched many School Board meetings
    Eliza Madrigal: So you found in them what you felt to be helpful, without getting tangled in the rest?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods...I think it's worked pretty well, to use the "rules" as tools, and let go of the "ruleness" of them.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oooh that is so interesting
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it takes alot of concentration
    Eliza Madrigal: I love that phrasing...let go of the ruleness...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: to pay attention to when the free discussion needs to turn to a stack
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and when it needs to be asked to wind down.
    Archmage Atlantis: It is a gift to be simple - shaker hymn
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but alot gets done in a two hour board meeting.
    Eliza Madrigal: So it takes a different sort of effort maybe
    Eliza Madrigal: more attention ?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..it takes more attention.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I feel like I've been exercising at the end of the two hour meetings.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes I can see how that might be

    Energy and Satisfaction...


    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's more fun, though than other meetings I go to.
    Eliza Madrigal: more energy/life... a kind of an exhilaration...?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Archmage Atlantis: It is a gift Corvus, you two are well on the path, I go now
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Arch.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Arch :)
    Eliza Madrigal: the path to no path, sounds like :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's a trick to make sure everyone gets heard, and that they're contributions are valued, but it is fun.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah... your saying that reminds me of something I felt a few weeks ago when stirring spaghetti sauce...
    Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking "Why haven't I enjoyed this more?"
    Eliza Madrigal: And I realized it was because I'd been taking more and more shortcuts
    Eliza Madrigal: by making it easier, I'd taken out the sense of satisfaction
    Eliza Madrigal: very counterintuitive
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
    Eliza Madrigal: it had become something I was more and more 'unconscious' while doing
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: right!
    Eliza Madrigal: rather than a cultivation of 'aliveness'
    --BELL--
    Corvuscorva Nightfire considers this...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what seems desire is often obscured by those shortcuts..the covering over of them.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: making us do stuff compulsively lookig for the satisfaction those things once gave us.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: eating can be that way
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: rules can be shortcuts
    Eliza Madrigal: like defaults
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods'
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: letting us get to what's REALLy important...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or covering up what is really important
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... like we stop asking ourselves...

    We can learn much from phariesees...


    Corvuscorva Nightfire: like the phariesee passing the broken man in the ditch
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, exactly wow
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: to get to temple on time an clean
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, he was caught up in the accoutrements of a spiritual life
    Eliza Madrigal: but forgot what matters... others, essentially
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the rules for how to do it right
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i'm not sure it was the man in the ditch that was really important
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: as odd as that sounds
    Eliza Madrigal: And the rules might indeed be good teachers if you know when to drop them
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, go on?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thinks
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: for the pharisee..the passerby...the man in the ditch is an opportunity...to the man in the ditch..he is what is important
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: to the passerby..it's his or her own response that is important
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: given "THIS" moment...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what is my response?
    Eliza Madrigal thinks...hmmm
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah wow
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: do I ignore what is?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: do I look carefully at the moment?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: do I pass by?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, all options given to him
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: do I stop to do what I can, here?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: am I present to NOW or to the future?
    Eliza Madrigal: "What if those at the temple don't think I did the right thing?"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the pharisee had a job to do at the temple..people counting on him.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: "What if those at the temple judge me for having dirty clothes?"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: people who would think the man in the ditch was unclean and other.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: unclean spiritually, i think, too.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, certainly layered
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: layers of desires even
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it was, maybe, high stakes for the pharisee.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: quite an excavation into that story, Corvi!
    Eliza Madrigal: surely with treasures of questions
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs...I like that story, those people.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the poor pharisee, too.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think how many times I do that.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... terribly tangled
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods
    Eliza Madrigal: absolutely!
    Eliza Madrigal: In that position one might have stood there trying to figure it out for so long that neither the temple meeting nor the rescue was accomplished
    Corvuscorva Nightfire guffaws
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that is most certainly me at times
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, that's what I relate to as you probably surmised
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and me..too caught up in my head to even really grasp the situation, the poor man's plight
    Eliza Madrigal: !! Yes, and maybe others came along side and said "Well the simple solution is ___" and another said "But think of ___." ad infinitum
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks..nods!
    Eliza Madrigal: :) This has been great fun this morning
    Eliza Madrigal: I can't thank you enough :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods
    --BELL--
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiels I liked it to, see you soon!
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Corvi! Hugs and have a nice day :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire hgus and poofs

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