2009.10.20 19:00 - Dreaming Dying

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

     

    In this session Fox shares a profound journey she made, through repeatedly dreaming of dying. 


    Eos Amaterasu thinks, 90 seconds over nowness

     

    --BELL--

     

    Paradise Tennant: hiya eos .. how are you :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Paradise, in the zone, some zone at least :-)
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: How are you?
    Paradise Tennant: drinking a tumeric chai .. and kind of whumphing :)
    Paradise Tennant: long super hectic day :) just getting home :)
    Paradise Tennant: nice to be here :)
    Eos Amaterasu: pavilion is nice and spacious, while also inviting and warm
    Eos Amaterasu: convivial
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: spacious is just a great word

     

    Eos plays with the pool size and cushions 


    Eos Amaterasu: whups!
    Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise and Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Honey, I shrank the pool!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pila
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: hiya pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: Paradise would you like a cushion?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Paradise Tennant: well this is cosier :)


    Earlier that day Fox Monacular had done a Dream Workshop presentation on her work on Sleep Paralysis

    Pila Mulligan: Fox gave a very interesting presentation at Maxine's dream workshop today
    Pila Mulligan: on sleep paralysis
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Pila Mulligan: and Eos you seemed to be far more advanced in the field than I am
    Pila Mulligan: it was all new to me
    Eos Amaterasu: Oh .... I was a bit surprised at how negatively portrayed the experiences often were
    Paradise Tennant: get that when I have to wake up and go to work lol the inability to move some times :)
    Paradise Tennant: never find it that negative :)
    Pila Mulligan: Fox gave some case studies from her lab that were difficult sounding
    Eos Amaterasu: I think that's often the case with experiences that are rare or strange or not often discussed, or not experienced frequently
    Pila Mulligan: Eos referred to similar to lucid dreaming
    Eos Amaterasu: there's some parallels to PaB and "suspension"
    Pila Mulligan: rl phone call
    Eos Amaterasu: sleep paralysis puts the motor part of your sensory-motor complex to sleeep
    Eos Amaterasu: so you can't move
    Paradise Tennant: funny i dreamt last night woke up a couple of times ..knowing I was dreaming ..but I never remember them ..they just sink back ..into the depths
    Eos Amaterasu: but your senses might still be awake, as well as your awareness
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Paradise Tennant: how can you be aware ie awake and not have motor functioning?
    Eos Amaterasu: though decoupling of senses from body then leads to hallucinatory-type experieneces
    Eos Amaterasu: or entering into dream
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Eos Amaterasu: dreaming you wake up can be frustrating
    Eos Amaterasu: or waking up into what you realize is yet another dream
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Paradise Tennant: do you dream?
    Paradise Tennant: or do you remember your dreams perhaps to be more precise
    Eos Amaterasu: I do dream, though recall is variable, and I've had a bit of experience with lucid dreaming
    Paradise Tennant: what is it like?
    Eos Amaterasu: I had my first dream that mixed SL and RL recently :-)
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: wow
    Pila Mulligan: back & reading
    Eos Amaterasu: seemed normal at the time :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: makes you wonder, doesn't it?
    Paradise Tennant: well we are mixing rl and sl right now ..and it seems normal too ...does it not ?
    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm.... and during 90 secs PaB here it's also in both SL and RL
    Pila Mulligan: I've had dreams about SL people as RL people, but not dreams with an SL enviroment
    Eos Amaterasu: and mixing waking & dreaming, sometimes drifting off, coming back

     

    --BELL--

     

    Paradise Tennant: what was that like pila to dream about sl .people .i guess as avatars?
    Pila Mulligan: no as themselves
    Pila Mulligan: just ordinary dreams
    Eos Amaterasu knows both Pila and Paradise as SL persons, but they're also kind of real
    Pila Mulligan: laggy now
    Pila Mulligan: first was Stim, I was there while he was talking to someone I knew
    Paradise Tennant: yes ..always find .. when you get to know someone in sl ..you are getting to know their rl persona they are one and the same
    Pila Mulligan: then Pema, something about praying, I forget
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, so it seems,Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: sounds like a deep dream ;)
    Pila Mulligan: not really - just plain dreams :)
    Pila Mulligan: Gaya said that in Korea they tell kids about sleep paralysis as part of growing up
    Paradise Tennant: always a little envious of people who can remember their dreams seems like such a rich unrestricted depth of experience
    Pila Mulligan: so they will not be afraid
    Pila Mulligan: it is to some degree
    Pila Mulligan: but it is also like rememebering going shopping last week to some degree too
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Eos Amaterasu: dreaming is another way appearance presents itself
    Pila Mulligan: would you care to say more about your dream that mixed SL and RL Eos?
    Paradise Tennant: that is an excellent point :0
    Eos Amaterasu: through some softening of the perceiver / perceived rigidity
    Paradise Tennant: wow
    Paradise Tennant: very very true
    Eos Amaterasu: I was in San Francisco, in the dream, with an AV, doing some kind of work there. We took buses to get there.
    Pila Mulligan: AV?
    Eos Amaterasu: Then I was back in Berkeley..
    Eos Amaterasu: avatar
    Pila Mulligan: oh, really :)
    Pila Mulligan: your avi?
    Eos Amaterasu: where I met someone whom I know in both RL and SL, but this was their SL av I met
    Eos Amaterasu: we were being pursued (conventional dream stuff :-)
    Pila Mulligan: were you Eos-avi in the dream?
    Eos Amaterasu: So I guess "RL" setting, with both SL and RL characters
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm not sure which I was, SL or RL or DL (dream life)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: DL is nice
    Pila Mulligan: do you ever look in a mirror while dreaminig?
    Pila Mulligan: your DL self can have many faces
    Eos Amaterasu: I think I have. I once became lucid and asked someone "who are you?", looking right at them, and they became very primitive looking
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: yikes
    Pila Mulligan: yes, that is a distrubing question it seems
    Pila Mulligan: I went thru a phase of asking people "do you realize this is a dream/"
    Pila Mulligan: similar effects
    Pila Mulligan: disturbing :)
    Eos Amaterasu: related to "who is perceiving this?"
    Paradise Tennant: lol we could ask each other here and now that question and it is just as applicable :)
    Pila Mulligan: I am not sure exactly what makes it distrubing, but the effect was obvious
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Paradise
    Eos Amaterasu: Or, "is this a dream?", which then means you try to do a reality check
    Paradise Tennant: is happy she is awake dreaming with pila and eos :)
    Pila Mulligan: lucid :)
    Eos Amaterasu: being in the state where you keep waking up but only into dreams is extremely panicking
    Pila Mulligan: funny, I have not found it so
    Pila Mulligan: it was kind of fun
    Eos Amaterasu: the butterfly's wings are beating quickly
    Pila Mulligan: I guess one person's fun is another person's fear
    Pila Mulligan: and vice versa
    Eos Amaterasu: the next morning I had an extreme panic
    Pila Mulligan: like, is this still a dream?
    Eos Amaterasu: I was walking down the hill and really could not tell if I was dreaming or not
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: Chuang tzu


    Zhuangzi-Butterfly-Dream.jpg

     

     

    --BELL--

     

    Eos Amaterasu: indeed
    Paradise Tennant: that would be very very disconcerting
    Eos Amaterasu: I think some kind of level of fundamental panic, really experiencing no ground, you're parachuting in space without a parachute
    Paradise Tennant: chaung tze ?
    Eos Amaterasu: is necessary, and liberating
    Pila Mulligan:

     

    Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi.

    Paradise Tennant: ahh
    Paradise Tennant: surrender is how i view it ...
    Eos Amaterasu: question is does it panic you (make you go faster and faster)
    Eos Amaterasu: or do you let go into that
    Eos Amaterasu: the big openness
    Paradise Tennant: i usually try to just relax into the present moment what ever it is .. and be in the flow ..I never find it overwhelming .. it seems when you trust and relax .. the support is there
    Pila Mulligan: my primary dream fear is the same as real life -- acrophobia -- even though I like to fly in dreams, I sometimes get dream fear of heights
    Paradise Tennant: like the universe just comes up to buoy you along
    Pila Mulligan: not much else is worrisome in dreams, except maybe snakes
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Pila Mulligan: and as you say, Paradise, going with it helps
    Paradise Tennant: will never bring you a snake :) pila
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Pila Mulligan: I was nearly bitten by poisonous snakes three times as a kid
    Pila Mulligan: two copperheads and a water mocassin
    Pila Mulligan: left a vivid impresison
    Paradise Tennant: I had nightmares of being eaten when I was nine or ten .. could distinct hear the sounds of my bones being crunched down on .. very very very unpleasant but they faded as I got older
    Paradise Tennant: yes I bet that is why the vivid reaction is there
    Pila Mulligan: funny how these fears can linger
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: not to change the topic but I have heard that the unmistaken child is a really good film
    Eos Amaterasu feels awestruck at being crunched on
    Paradise Tennant: the story of a monk trying to find his master's reincarnate .. apparently lovely
    Pila Mulligan: http://movies.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/movies/03unmi.html
    Paradise Tennant: not so awestruck ..plain horrible
    Paradise Tennant: the sound particularly the smell of the beast . i think a big cat .. all round nasty
    Eos Amaterasu: Complement to that movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un2bk-ddtf8
    Pila Mulligan: hi FOx
    Fox Monacular: hi Pila, Paradise, Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: idea of you being incarnation of some kind of energy, or person, challenges identity
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Fox!
    Paradise Tennant: hiya fox !
    Pila Mulligan: what a nice session you had earlier today
    Eos Amaterasu: Enjoyed your session today
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Pila Mulligan: we were talking about it earlier
    Fox Monacular: thanks, I didn't expect so many people!
    Pila Mulligan: lots of interest
    Fox Monacular: yes, these things are very attractive, it's true:)
    Pila Mulligan: Paradise just referred to her youthful "nightmares of being eaten when I was nine or ten .. could distinct hear the sounds of my bones being crunched down on .. very very very unpleasant but they faded as I got older"
    Pila Mulligan: kind of traumatic
    Fox Monacular: ouch
    Fox Monacular: yes, some nightmares and dream experiences like sleep paralysis can actually cause trauma
    Pila Mulligan: my residual fears are snakes and heights
    Fox Monacular: and even post traumatic stress disorder (rarely but still)
    Paradise Tennant: wears two sets of bear bells when she camps :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Fox, was curious how your experience with sleep paralysis relates to PaB
    Fox Monacular: hhmmmm...
    Fox Monacular: there are things out there... and in our minds...
    Fox Monacular: there's more to stuff than what we see
    Eos Amaterasu thinks about doing the 9 secs while in SP
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: I don't have sp very often anymore
    Pila Mulligan: I was dwelling upon your comment this morning that there is a continuity in the midst of these diverse expereinces
    Fox Monacular: I think so
    Pila Mulligan: me too
    Fox Monacular: even on the level of 'boring science' these things correlate
    Pila Mulligan: not necessarily easy to define it though

     

    --BELL--

     

    Fox Monacular: SP with nightmares, with lucid dreaming, SP distress with presence and with waking imagery... with social anxiety...
    Fox Monacular: I got a lot of poster presentations out of this stuff:)
    Fox Monacular: oh, sorry, didn't see the bell
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: 'salright
    Fox Monacular: Eos, you have a lot of SP experiences?
    Eos Amaterasu: I used to have them as a child, pre-adolescent
    Eos Amaterasu: with rotating spinning experiences
    Eos Amaterasu: I have them sometimes now, or notice them
    Fox Monacular: were you scared? or you learned to enjoy them?
    Fox Monacular: I get scared even now:)
    Eos Amaterasu: I think I was sometimes scared back then; now I'm just curious, but have been confused a few times as to "what's real" - am I really hearing this, for example
    Pila Mulligan: hi Doug
    Fox Monacular: hi Doug
    doug Sosa: blushingly late.
    Paradise Tennant: hiya doug :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Doug... Pila and I attended Fox's presentation of sleep paralysis research earlier today
    Fox Monacular: :)
    doug Sosa: (envy).
    Fox Monacular: what I didn't realize is that in chat there's somehow less time... so there is a lot of stuff that I had to cut out...
    Eos Amaterasu: I think there's a relation between the disassociation from motor control in sleep paralysis and the letting go of controlling (body and mind) in PaB
    Pila Mulligan: what causes the loss of motor control in sleep paralysis ?
    Fox Monacular: loss of motor control during SP is caused by intrusion of REM sleep physiology
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: but how does it work technically, if you can say?
    Pila Mulligan: to a lay person
    Fox Monacular: we're normally paralyzed during REM
    Eos Amaterasu: You can also induce SP thru deep meditation binaural beats
    Pila Mulligan: is there like a button that is pushed?
    Fox Monacular: just a sec, I'll find my references
    Eos Amaterasu: (like Allen Ginsberg :-)
    Pila Mulligan: turning off motor conrtrol? :)
    Eos Amaterasu: not attending to motor control
    Fox Monacular: I don't remember the neuro mechanisms by heart, but I always know which papers to cite when I'm writing mines
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: so awareness decouples, and usually freaks out a bit - projects perception
    Pila Mulligan: me things glucose glycogen from biology
    Fox Monacular: I think you can only induce SP in people who are already prone to them
    Fox Monacular: Cheyne is one of the researchers who wrote a lot on SP mechanisms
    Fox Monacular: I disagree with him on what SP means, but his neuro descriptions are good
    Fox Monacular: also, Allan Hobson and Pierre Maquet wrote a lot on REM sleep psychophysiology
    Eos Amaterasu: Thomas Yuschak has a methodology for going from SP to lucid dreaming or OBE
    Fox Monacular: in fact, there's a disorder RBD - rem behavior disorder, where there's no muscle atonia in rem
    Fox Monacular: and these people actually act out their dreams
    Paradise Tennant: ;) adds to cart
    Pila Mulligan: this sounds like Doug last night: "REM sleep paralysis is a condition that occurs when sleep is suddenly interrupted and the person was having a dream. The paralysis sets in because the transition from being totally asleep to being fully awake is a gradual process. When it becomes sudden the body and the brain's reaction times are not the same and this causes the paralysis."

     

    --BELL--

     

    Fox Monacular: sorry about it
    Fox Monacular: I seem to have a lot of technical issues today
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-(
    Pila Mulligan: I have acted out dreams
    Pila Mulligan: while dreaming
    Pila Mulligan: kind of embarassing
    Eos Amaterasu: (?)
    Fox Monacular: what kind of acting out?
    Pila Mulligan: well, I got in a fight in a dream
    Pila Mulligan: and I hit the person really hard
    Pila Mulligan: the problem was I also hit the wall behind my pillow
    Pila Mulligan: it hurt
    Fox Monacular: ouch
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes. That's like watching your dog dreaming, and seeing her legs twitching
    Pila Mulligan: xactly
    Eos Amaterasu: (brb)
    doug Sosa: dreaming is treated as unreal, a bizarre mental state, from a societal point of view, but for the dreamer it is when they really are themselves, free, creative.
    Fox Monacular: yes, I think so too
    Fox Monacular: actually a lot of mainstream dream researchers still keep talking about dream 'bizarreness' or narrowness and single-mindedness, but I just fail to see that
    Paradise Tennant: once travelled with some friends to a sailing regatta.. stayed with a really nice couple.. one chap sleep walked .. our hostess woke up to him .. standing buck naked in her bedroom .. he walked over opened her closet door and peed on her shoes.. :) they got him back to bed ..without waking him up .. true hospitality ..it was never mentioned again
    doug Sosa: So as i was saying last night, on waking, sensory input must be dealt with so the brain/mind reduces its activity till it can match what is coming in. If the sleep is really deep, that can take some time and the body is experienced as detached or "paralyzed"
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    doug Sosa: most people are afraid of their dreams, what they might reveal. the thing is to have the courage of enjoying them, participating fully "in one's real self."
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: I agree with that, somehow in dreaming I feel perhaps more authentic
    Paradise Tennant: is our true self revealed in dreams ?
    Fox Monacular: I have had many dreams, some I still remember, that revealed something about myself that I kept hidden from my consciousness
    Pila Mulligan: I had sleep walking episodes as a child -- soon after I got my drivers license (age 16) I took a date home in the middle of a blizzard and her parents insited that I spent the night - I was so worried about possibly sleep walking that I stayed awake in bed all night
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: my brother was like that too
    doug Sosa: yes, he answers carefully. Le say there is more of us there, it is a richer palette of self, a larger repertoire. And that is why if often feels uncomfortable.
    Fox Monacular: he actually ended up in someone else's bed once like that
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: my fear exactly ...
    Pila Mulligan: sleeping thru it -- lol
    Eos Amaterasu: some of the dream stuf can be pretty extreme
    Fox Monacular: Doug, if I may ask, do you work with dreams in your practice?
    Eos Amaterasu: probably more extreme because we don't want to look at it
    doug Sosa: that's what i mean by "more of us".
    Fox Monacular: some of the dream stuff reveals something about us that we'd rather not see...
    doug Sosa: One thing i've never fully understood..
    Eos Amaterasu: there's levels of raw emotion that can be startling
    doug Sosa: some people's dreams are sort of like the way they are in RL, but others are really different, like pesonality change, between RL and DL.
    Pila Mulligan: DL :)
    doug Sosa: You know, the three states of being : RL, SL and DL.
    Fox Monacular: could that be reflecting something about RL? I'm sure some people in RL are acting some other roles...too
    doug Sosa: The trinity.
    Eos Amaterasu: well, dreams also intrude into waking
    Eos Amaterasu: politicans succeed by selling dreams
    doug Sosa: Yes, Erich Fromm once said very few people act sane because they want to, they feel it neceessary.
    Fox Monacular: it's interesting how there are many dreams that are sort of mundane or not particularly special, and then there are periods when some theme imposes itself
    Eos Amaterasu listens
    Fox Monacular: like these past couple of weeks I was dying in my dreams every single night
    doug Sosa: but i don't think any dream is boring, even by quite limited people.
    Fox Monacular: to the point that I really got tired of it!
    Fox Monacular: so I wasn't looking forward to going to bed anymore
    Eos Amaterasu: Dying is over-rated :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: I once dreamed I died
    Pila Mulligan: interesting pattern FOx
    doug Sosa: But that is interesting. dying. in a dream. and then not.
    Fox Monacular: I died 7 or 8 times in the past 2 weeks
    Pila Mulligan: mazel tov
    Eos Amaterasu: Nothing much changed - I realized that now while you're alive is the only time
    Fox Monacular: and dying got progressively more and more symbolic
    doug Sosa: does that possibly relate to the way you're dressed

     

    --BELL--

     

    Pila Mulligan: or mundane?
    Fox Monacular: :))
    doug Sosa: Bergman's "Seventh Seal" movie?
    Eos Amaterasu is really curious to hear how "dying got progressively more and more symbolic"
    Paradise Tennant: hmm one of the few dreams I do remember is hovering near a light fixture looking down at my body on an hospital guerney very much worse for wear and being filled with just an amazing sense of curiosity .. feeling of being loved.. wanting not to go back into the battered body but on to find out more ..
    Paradise Tennant: it was really nice .. I do not think death is so bad
    Pila Mulligan has a theory: your repeated death expereinces were to toughen your psyche up for the workshop presentation, where among usually unstated fears morbid anxiety is king
    Fox Monacular: sorry, I just missed everything that was said after the bell...
    Eos Amaterasu: Eos Amaterasu is really curious to hear how "dying got progressively more and more symbolic"
    Fox Monacular: ok, so in the beginning of the death cycle, I dreamt that I just died... got killed randomly or something
    Fox Monacular: so I would think oh... it sucks...
    Fox Monacular: too bad
    Fox Monacular: and then I started to get captured for something that I did
    Fox Monacular: at some point I was like Prometheus - I revealed some great secret to people
    Fox Monacular: and I knew I had to get captured and be publicly executed
    doug Sosa: Great! rather feel guilty than die randomly.
    Fox Monacular: but then got reborn
    Fox Monacular: seriously:)
    doug Sosa: And then on to real big meanings!
    Pila Mulligan: stubborn :)
    Fox Monacular: and the last one I was watching myself die in place of someone else
    Pila Mulligan: generous :)
    doug Sosa: Transformative.
    Fox Monacular: and I remember thinking that I should be mindful not to miss the moment of death
    Fox Monacular: but the weird thing is that before that in my DL I never died.... i always 'almost died' and would wake up
    Fox Monacular: but these 2 weeks I would actually die
    Fox Monacular: transformative, yes, I think so too
    Eos Amaterasu: "mindful not to miss the moment of death"
    Eos Amaterasu: - I love that
    doug Sosa: a real sequence, a lot of experience from different perspectives, different moment in the unfolding.
    Paradise Tennant: when you died what was it like ..what did it feel like
    Fox Monacular: empty!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
    Fox Monacular: hi Steve
    Paradise Tennant: hiya steve
    Pila Mulligan: welcome to DL in SL
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Eos Amaterasu: hi steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: DL?
    Pila Mulligan: DL DeamLife
    Eos Amaterasu: Dream Life
    doug Sosa: join the second shift. i've been enjoying these after the session sessions.
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I've died in dreams too Fox
    Eos Amaterasu: Fox was recounting how she went through a progression of really dying in DL
    Pila Mulligan: it is kind of interesting
    stevenaia Michinaga: unless you're fox
    Fox Monacular: yes, it was not really nightmares
    Eos Amaterasu: No, it's more ordinary
    Fox Monacular: it was more like I got tired of how loaded with 'big meaning' these dreams were
    doug Sosa: In some amazing way i think we may all be richer for hearing this sequence
    Fox Monacular: it's as if every night I was reading continental philosohy instead of novels
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Pila Mulligan -- for Steve:
    Pila Mulligan: [20:18] Fox Monacular: ok, so in the beginning of the death cycle, I dreamt that I just died... got killed randomly or something [20:18] Fox Monacular: so I would think oh... it sucks... [20:18] Fox Monacular: too bad
    Pila Mulligan: then it progressed to almost to martyrdom
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: yes, I got publicly burned
    Pila Mulligan: spectrum of endings
    Fox Monacular: and got reborn
    Fox Monacular: and got chased
    doug Sosa: penance for being prometheus.
    Fox Monacular: and captured
    Paradise Tennant: ouch
    Fox Monacular: I had revealed some big secret to humanity
    Eos Amaterasu: do the Christ thing
    Fox Monacular: and knew I would be punished
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: but it was almost accidental
    Pila Mulligan: isn't that how Plato ends the Allegory of the Cave?
    Fox Monacular: like I never really meant to do it, but did it anyway, so I had to pay for it because it's the way things are
    Pila Mulligan: the awakened one cannot recount his experience to the others for the risk of being killed by them
    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm
    Eos Amaterasu: It also works the other way around
    Fox Monacular: and it was like one of these dreams where you get an amazing revelation, and everything seems so clear, and you think you should remember it when you wake up
    Fox Monacular: and then you forget of course
    Eos Amaterasu: :-(
    Fox Monacular: so I had a few of these very intense martyrdom dreams
    Fox Monacular: and the last one was about me dying in place of someone else, actually my own brother
    stevenaia Michinaga: for those, I remember to write them down before they fade
    Eos Amaterasu: Wow, highly personal!
    Fox Monacular: and I remember lying in some cave or something mortally wounded
    Fox Monacular: and I knew nobody would find me there even though I could see people at a distance
    Fox Monacular: so I decided that I shouldn't panic, but instead focus and be mindful not to miss the moment of death
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: and it felt like emptiness
    Eos Amaterasu is awed
    Fox Monacular: curiously, it was the last death dream after about 7 or 8 in a row
    Fox Monacular: it sounds like I'm making this up, right?
    Paradise Tennant: emptiness as in being alone?

     

    --BELL--

     

    doug Sosa: no way, no one awake could do that. pure and wonderous. awe-ful.
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Pila Mulligan: Fox, this reminds me of your comment earlier that when lucid dreamers did exercises in their dreams their respiration rate increased -- the link being that when you die you lose your bodily mass and you may have actually expereinced in the dream that very sensation of emptiness, just as their bodies expereinced the dream exercise sensation
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: interesting
    Eos Amaterasu: Are you still in that "emptiness", Fox?
    Fox Monacular: no way
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: it was only a sensation
    Fox Monacular: I know, in psychoanalysis dreams of death often reflect change, transformation
    Fox Monacular: yes, just a profound realization
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Fox Monacular: like, yeah, it's true what they say, it's really really empty!
    Pila Mulligan: but you still had the sense of your personal form and expeience
    Fox Monacular: and there's some change in my life, however it's not really emotional change more like ... 'pragmatic
    doug Sosa: i knew a herapist who asked his clients "got life insurance?" "why? " "becasue this is going to kill you."
    stevenaia Michinaga: like in Tarot, death card is not a representation of death
    Fox Monacular: yes, personal definitely
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: funny thing: after the death cycle we decided to get married with my partner
    doug Sosa: three?
    Pila Mulligan: kind of a transition :)
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Eos Amaterasu: [20:33] stevenaia Michinaga: like in Tarot, death card is not a representatin of death
    Fox Monacular: but purely for pragmatic reason - we're going to States for his postdoc and they don't accept 'common law'
    Fox Monacular: so it's not like it's a big deal or something
    Paradise Tennant: hmm marriage is a big deal
    doug Sosa: no, but of course it is.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: i know, but we have a kid together and all....
    Fox Monacular: so it's not like things are going to change really
    Paradise Tennant: congratulations to the three of you !
    doug Sosa: what's the child's view?
    Fox Monacular: but my parents will certaintly stop bugging me
    Paradise Tennant: change is the only constant
    Eos Amaterasu: sounds pretty marriage-ful already, but congrats anyway!
    Fox Monacular: the child is 15 month old:)
    Pila Mulligan: maybe the no-big-deal thought is an after-effect of your death transcendence dreams
    Fox Monacular: her view is ... bababamamama apapapa ababa
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: thanks:)
    Paradise Tennant: when you had all these vivid dreams where you practicing a specific technique or they just happened
    Eos Amaterasu: apa?
    doug Sosa: right on, that little one. learning to talk, to dream, to live, to enter in to the ritual of it all. again, the way you are dressed?
    Fox Monacular: I was listening to a lot of upaya podcasts
    Fox Monacular: and was thinking about their buddhist champlaincy program that combines neuroscience, systems theory and engaged buddhism
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    doug Sosa: wow, that's a mouthfull.
    Eos Amaterasu thinks, earth cadet academy
    Fox Monacular: it's really interesting
    Fox Monacular: www.upaya.orgg
    Paradise Tennant: sounds like .. an engaging blend
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: so I was thinking that when I grow up I could maybe participate in something like that
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: best possible aspiration
    doug Sosa: oh, upaya, friend lives next door and i had a crush on..
    Fox Monacular: :)
    doug Sosa: joan?
    doug Sosa: twenty years ago.
    Fox Monacular: roshi joan?
    doug Sosa: yep.
    Eos Amaterasu: Joan Halifax Grof?
    Fox Monacular: :)
    doug Sosa: yep.
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Paradise Tennant: ;) it is a small world
    Fox Monacular: I'm a big fan of both grof and halifax
    Eos Amaterasu: [20:36] Paradise Tennant: when you had all these vivid dreams where you practicing a specific technique or they just happened
    Paradise Tennant: world
    Fox Monacular: ok, sorry everyone, baby woke up
    doug Sosa: actual such things only happen in a big world. in a smaller world we would never have this moment.
    Pila Mulligan: hi baby
    Fox Monacular: thanks for another great discussion
    Eos Amaterasu: apa apabap apa
    Paradise Tennant: :))
    Pila Mulligan: bababamamama apapapa ababa
    Eos Amaterasu: Thanks Fox
    Pila Mulligan: :0
    doug Sosa: amazing.
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite fox and baby
    Eos Amaterasu: she's a dream!
    doug Sosa: what a drama!
    Eos Amaterasu: a profound series of dreams
    doug Sosa: Now let's see, 9 sec...?
    Eos Amaterasu: a little death? bardo? gap?

     

    --BELL--

     

    doug Sosa: I think our responses gave real dignity to that sequence, and may have rescued it for her.
    doug Sosa: But what do i know.
    Eos Amaterasu: wb, fox
    Fox Monacular: she fell right back asleep
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Paradise Tennant: maybe she is dreaming
    Eos Amaterasu: you look like a returning bird :-)
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    doug Sosa: she had a series of dreams she was awake..
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: she sleeps in my bed these days...
    Fox Monacular: so she had a dream mommy went away in SL
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Paradise Tennant: i would bet she dreams of you :)
    Eos Amaterasu's mind is boggled
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Pila Mulligan: when you guys come to the US can you continue your dream lab work, Fox?
    Fox Monacular: or more like she dreams of the boob
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: yes, definitely
    Fox Monacular: my husband will work with Robert Stickgold
    Pila Mulligan: boob dreams are sweet
    doug Sosa: where is that?
    Fox Monacular: he's a researcher who used to work with Allan Hobson
    Pila Mulligan: cool
    doug Sosa: town?
    Pila Mulligan: Harvard
    Fox Monacular: in Harvard
    Fox Monacular: Boston
    doug Sosa: Sure i was there as post doc.
    Fox Monacular: in Havard?
    doug Sosa: yep.
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stickgold
    doug Sosa: I one day was walking across the street there and as i crossed in the snow a guy leaned out of his truck and said
    doug Sosa: "hey kid, don't worry about such problems."
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    doug Sosa: that night I had a dream.
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    doug Sosa: I was at a cocktail party and people were introducing themselves and that guy was there.
    doug Sosa: i asked him 'what do you do/" he said "ah, house painter. What do you do?
    doug Sosa: "psychologist" "oh, what's that?"
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    doug Sosa: we try to figure out why people do what they do. "oh yeh, who want's to know!"
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Pila Mulligan: don't worry about such problems
    Fox Monacular: so that's why you do what you do?
    doug Sosa: hopefully a little lighter.
    Fox Monacular: :)
    doug Sosa: After all, after that, who could take themselves seriously :)
    Fox Monacular: while in Boston I'll actually be writing my master's thesis... because of the maternity leave I'm very very late
    Fox Monacular: :)
    doug Sosa: what department?
    Fox Monacular: neuroscience
    Fox Monacular: but after that I'm finished with neuroscience... I'll go to interdisciplinary phd...
    doug Sosa: norm geshwind, ..
    Fox Monacular: there's a program in concordia university in montreal... you do whatever you want as long as three different profs sign your papers:)
    Pila Mulligan: then on to the frontiers of DL
    Fox Monacular: so I know a few cool people....
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: then perhaps I'll do another BA... because all my papers will be kinda useless
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    doug Sosa: At stanford, looking at climate change, we have all thes students who are asing to do Dissertations. they dee it as legit intedisciplinary.
    Paradise Tennant: well thanks everyone .. but close to midnight here. . and I have an early morning .. so I will excuse myself . sweet dreams one and all :)) maybe being on a beach somewhere .. with an iced tea ! lol
    Pila Mulligan: bye Paradise, sweet dreams :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Paradise
    Fox Monacular: take care Paradise
    doug Sosa: beach you to it. i go to honolulu next week, maybe see pila.
    Paradise Tennant: wow lucky you ! doug
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: I also must leave, thanks everyone!
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Paradise Tennant: have an iced tea for me :)
    Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams Eos
    Fox Monacular: bye Eos, goodnight
    doug Sosa: me too. great evening. bye
    Pila Mulligan: bye Doug
    Pila Mulligan: bye Fox

     

    --BELL--

     

    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, sweet dreams, all!
    Fox Monacular: bye Doug
    Fox Monacular: Bye Pila, Steve, Eos, so nice talking to you all
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