2009.11.15 08:00 - how to convey the PaB spirit?

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    During our weekly guardian meeting, the following 17 guardians were present: Adams Dubrovna, Caledonia Heron, Doug Sosa, Eliza Madrigal, Eos Amaterasu, Fael Illyar, Gaya Ethaniel, Lia Rikugun,  Maxine Walden,Neela Blaisdale,Pema Pera, Pila Mulligan,Stevenaia Michinaga, Storm Nordwind, Widget Whiteberry, Wol Euler and Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Lia Rikugun. (If I forgot someone please feel free to add you name, sorry :)

    Lia Rikugun: hello good morning
    Pila Mulligan: hi Lia
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
    Lia Rikugun: hello steve
    Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya
    Lia Rikugun: hello gaya
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Lia, stevenaia and Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eos :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi gang!
    Lia Rikugun: hi eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Nice to see u, Lia - see u also in Malta?
    stevenaia Michinaga: waits for pillows to appear on my side
    Lia Rikugun: i hope i can make it, but for now this is the plan ;)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Lia Rikugun: hello widget
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Widg, Pema
    Widget Whiteberry: hello everyone, hello all
    Pila Mulligan: hi Widget, Pema, Eliza
    Lia Rikugun: hello eikza, pema
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Widget, Pema, Eliza and Maxine :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Maxine
    Lia Rikugun: eliza
    Lia Rikugun: hi maxine
    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
    Maxine Walden: hi, Pila, Lia, everyone
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eli, Max
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Pila Mulligan: hi Yak and Adams
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Lia, Gaya, Steve, Eos, Maxine, pema, Widget, Eos, Pila, Adams, Yakuzza :)
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello everyone :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Pila Mulligan: hi Storm
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hello everyone
    Lia Rikugun: hello hello
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi doug
    Pila Mulligan: hi Doug
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Storm and Doug :)
    Lia Rikugun: hi doug
    doug Sosa: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: showers of greetings, everyone :-)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Pila Mulligan: now here's a fun game: set your view to outside along the sidewalk, and as you see avis approaching open the door for them :)Snapshot_046.jpg
    Pema Pera: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Pila
    Pema Pera: like a fish trap?
    Pila Mulligan: got Stomr and DOug just now :)
    Pila Mulligan: (typo club is in session)
    Widget Whiteberry: very hospitable
    Gaya Ethaniel: Funny ... half of the hall/people are disappearing now and then on my screen >.<
    Lia Rikugun: oh no :(
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry for interrupting ... :)

    first topic to discuss was last night's chat log: http://playasbeing.wik.is/<wbr/>Chat_Logs/2009/11/2009.11.14_<wbr/>19:00_-_Being_Blunt_with_Mary and how to deal with visitors who may not "get" the PaB spirit ...

    Pema Pera: Would anyone like to bring up a topic to discuss?
    stevenaia Michinaga: ......reading last night log
    Pila Mulligan: your email?
    stevenaia Michinaga: be back shortly
    Pema Pera: I'd be happy to, Pila!
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes um...interesting session
    Pema Pera: probably not everybody has had a chance to read it
    Widget Whiteberry: How about the focus of the 4 daily sessions
    Adams Dubrovna still reading the session
    Pema Pera: but the general topic of that email was how to deal with visitors who don't seem to "get" the PaB spirit
    Pema Pera: and Wdiget, perhaps we can discuss that at the same time, related for sure!
    Eos Amaterasu: One of the aspects of that session was some continuity of coming back to the 9 secs practice
    Eliza Madrigal: It was impressive to me that Calvino hung in there... as a new person, there were many strings
    Pema Pera: In general, I see three ways of dealing with conversations that seem to stray completely from the PaB way of interacting with each other:
    1) ignore those who stray, hoping they will learn by example;
    2) address those who stray, explaining how we interact differently;
    3) engage those who stray, first going along with their topic and way of talking and then slowly guiding them to a more PaB way of sharing views and experiences.
    Pila Mulligan: I try #3, but only for a while :)
    Pema Pera: I tend to start with 3), then choose 2) or 1) depending on the personality
    stevenaia Michinaga: eos is very good at #3
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Storm Nordwind: Sadly #3 does not work for some people
    Pila Mulligan: Steve does #4
    stevenaia Michinaga: 4?
    Maxine Walden: !!
    Pila Mulligan: #4 = show the equanimity neded to referee a roller derby
    Widget Whiteberry: requires clarity and agreement about 'the PaB way" Way?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I was somewhat taken aback when I heard from Mary that some guardians told her that she is unwelcome at PaB.
    stevenaia Michinaga: laughs
    Pema Pera: There is no formula for the "PaB way" Widget
    Pema Pera: but we do have a sense of community and when that is being disrupted
    Storm Nordwind: I think Gaya, that the situation is that some of her attitudes are not welcome at PaB
    Widget Whiteberry: is there a definition of what we do in session?
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, I've never seen that... I personally have asked her why she comes (particularly to my sessions) since she doesnt seem to like us/me very much
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps she identifies with her attitudes
    Pema Pera: we tend to ask "what do you mean" rather than "I disagree!" for example
    Eliza Madrigal: Which granted, was an emotional way to deal with her, but :)
    Maxine Walden: Gaya, another posible point is that Mary heard any confrontation as 'unwelcome period'.
    Pema Pera: no definitions or formulas, Widget
    Gaya Ethaniel shrugs ... I don't know. Individually guardians can talk to her how they feel but hope it's not an impression representing the whole group.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway, just my feeling ...
    Eliza Madrigal: She's a smart girl :)
    Pema Pera: as I wrote in my email, I like her persistence and her emphasis on the mundane, two excellent qualities for any explorer/practitioner
    Widget Whiteberry steps away briefly, will read and catch up on return
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Caledonia
    Pila Mulligan: re smart: I recall she once referred to her post-doctoral work
    Caledonia Heron: hi :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, I meant more in the sense that she knows each of us is speaking for ourselves, I think?
    Pila Mulligan: to me she seems habitually contentious in an academic debating kind of way
    Eliza Madrigal nods...it IS a way of connecting
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: but yesterday evening she did share a soft moment, which was really touching
    Pema Pera: Mary Korpov: i'm not sure you want to hear my experience, but here goes. My son came home from a movie and I felt joy.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: it's a matter of _how_ she comes across; there's glimmers of light that she is showing she is willing go share
    Eos Amaterasu: to share
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. My impression is that if we can ignore seemingly confrontational way of her speaking to allow her to add more than a statement, there are things that she wants to know from us and want to share.
    Eos Amaterasu: It's a matter of how much patience we want to have, and how much to have one person dominate the whole thing.
    Pema Pera: if/when she will be reading this log, I hope she will respond to us in sessions to come; I really would like to hear her side more
    Storm Nordwind is aware of how Mart's incessant hectoring would come across to newcomers. I wonder whether we need to consider newcomers' meetings or some separation of meeting types again.
    Eos Amaterasu: and how to work with that boundary
    Pema Pera: and yes, Eos!
    Storm Nordwind: *Mary's
    Pema Pera: Storm, it may be that yesterday is the beginning of a confrontation that may not last long: my bet will be that either she walks away in a huff, or really agrees to confront us and find some kindof soluton -- it doesn't seem anymore like something lingering and simmering
    Pema Pera: wanna bet a beer?
    Pema Pera: say, two weeks?
    Storm Nordwind: You're telling me Piet that it will never happen again with someone else? :)
    Pema Pera: of course it will happen with others
    Eos Amaterasu notes there is a tavern across the way
    Pema Pera: but each time we find a way of dealing with such a visitor, we get better at it, collectively
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well she seemed to soften when I told her that not everyone [well me] is against her attending.
    Gaya Ethaniel: soften her*
    Pema Pera: and the very way of dealing with them may exemplify the PaB spirit to newcomers
    Pema Pera: as long as we don't indulge them endlessly
    Maxine Walden: we are wondering about our group and individual tolerance for these aspects...
    Pema Pera: I think our indulgence in the past has been as much part of the problem as the attitude of those who haven't fit in
    Maxine Walden: and our thinking about them together here may allow each of us to become clearer about our own boundary/tolerance level
    Pila Mulligan: how about assinging a mentor to such folks -- someone to coach them in kindliness?
    Maxine Walden: yes, indulgence in my mind colludes with the objectional 'stuff'
    Pema Pera: would you like to volunteer, Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: no
    Pema Pera: why not?
    Widget Whiteberry: defensive behaviors can be survival necessities in some enviroments, perhaps
    Pila Mulligan: I lack clniical skills
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think that was last Wed. Eliza's session. Mary was a good participant I felt.
    Widget Whiteberry: it would be helpful to clarify that they are not survival necessities in the PaB environment
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, although she wanted to participate without reading the notecard
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Maxine Walden: not sure if Pila is serious, but I truly wonder whether coaching would work, in that they are trying to 'get rid' of something objectionable in themselves and thus perhpas get it into others of into the space of the group
    Eliza Madrigal: but yes, she was able to participate...just not be quite on the page as a matter of 'statement' I felt
    Pila Mulligan: just an idea,Maxine
    Pema Pera: also we can't take responsibility for psychological problems of avatars we don't know at all in RL
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well ... Eliza even in Kira events, most of them don't read papers proposed in advance of meetings so I'm not going to see that as something against her.
    Eliza Madrigal is not making a case and feels she's been very patient :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Even Sweet :)
    Widget Whiteberry smiles at Eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Of course you are Eliza ... I'm not critisising you.
    Eos Amaterasu: It's not that life-and-death, real issues, are not allowed inside PaB, but once inside they are dealt with in a life-and-death manner
    Eos Amaterasu: they are not short-shrifted
    Eos Amaterasu: Ie, Mary can be included, but it might feel dangerous, but hopefully in a humorous way, to her
    Eos Amaterasu: She is the bird
    Eos Amaterasu: (reference to the log, sorry)
    Pema Pera: interesting angle, Eos, yes
    Pema Pera: are there other topics we would like to bring up?
    stevenaia Michinaga: thinking about tolerance refered to earlier, buttons being pushed (a topic that comes up now and then) and Wu Wei
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think every guardian should feel encourage to say directly how someone like Arch or Mary engage as appropriate during the session to minimise these topics sprouting out too much.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Scath told me she forgot all about the incident afterwards and had no problem having Arch again.
    Gaya Ethaniel: And deal with him as and when appropriate.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why can't each guardians do more like this?
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, and also she was ready to deal with him on the spot
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Maxine Walden: I think your suggestion, Gaya, also demonstrates courage but also respect for the group space
    Eliza Madrigal: I learned much from her interraction
    stevenaia Michinaga: there is engagement with heighten blood pressure and then there is"no attack felt" the battle is over before it begins
    Storm Nordwind hopes that the great example that Scath set can be mirrored by himself, and hopefull all. To let hurt and anger go like that is a great thing.
    Eos Amaterasu: willing to engage, but careful not to hurt
    Maxine Walden: (interesting that we are so drawn to these difficult behaviours, and how to handle them, which means as Storm is suggesting, letting them go without being withered by them
    Maxine Walden: )

    What do we want for PaB sessions? Storm talks about different PaB levels for example "Pure Play as Being" and "Applied Play as Being"

    Pema Pera: after discussing what we don't want to do in sessions, shall we take Widget's suggestion and talk about what we do want to do, with respect to the 9 secs and related talk about practice and personal experience?
    Maxine Walden: good idea, Pema
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Widget Whiteberry: From an email thread, I was interested in Storm's ideas about "Pure Play as Being" and "Applied Play as Being"
    doug Sosa: I winder how we could use such episodes and the 9 sec togehter, "how does this moment look in 9sec? Might learn about mind, relation to body, passion, defensiveness, etc.
    doug Sosa: wonder..
    Widget Whiteberry: Storm wrote: 'the practice of Play as Being itself (the base level), and how the practice of Play as Being has influenced and can influence my life and the lives of others (one level removed).'
    Pema Pera would love to hear more from Storm about differen PaB angles!
    Widget Whiteberry hopes Storm is with us
    Eliza Madrigal listens intently
    Storm Nordwind is listening!
    Pema Pera: silence before the Storm
    Pila Mulligan: hi Neela
    Eliza Madrigal: (Hi Neela)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello everyone:)
    Lia Rikugun: hi neela
    Storm Nordwind: I simply put forward the different levels I see of conversation in the PaB pavilion. As well as the two levels that Widget cites, I also had a third level - often taken up in theme sessions
    Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello fael
    Maxine Walden: hi, Fael, Wol
    Eliza Madrigal: (Hi Fael )
    Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Fael
    Pila Mulligan: hi Fael and Wol
    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Wol
    Lia Rikugun: hi wol
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Wol
    Storm Nordwind: My personal opinion was that stuff beyond those three levels, and frankly it often comes to that, might be minimized by simply emphasizing the more fundamental levels
    Widget Whiteberry: this morning the session came around to love, attachment and connection... I wondered where that conversations falls with respect to those levels
    Widget Whiteberry: wonder*
    Eliza Madrigal: (with an attempt at 'Being Seeing" at the end)

    On what should we focus our discussions during the PaB sessions? How can we maximize our time?

    Storm Nordwind: I'm very much in favour of discussing all these things. What I'm intent on is maximizing the very precious time we have in th Pavilion. So some things might be better discussed elsewhere or in the same place at different times
    Fael Illyar: Hi Eos :)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb Eos
    Widget Whiteberry: In principal, I like what you are saying, Storm. In practice, I'm not confident that I know where the lines are
    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Eos:)
    Storm Nordwind: The reason for that problem, Widget, is that we are trying to pack everything into one meeting type and time
    Storm Nordwind: Because we have only one opportunity, the natural lines are not evident
    Maxine Walden: Storm, do you have a thought of what we might talk about here in the precious guardian time?
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Storm Nordwind: If we had a diversity of oportunities, I think it would naturally happen
    Caledonia Heron: maybe one guideline is that if it is your direct experience, it is likely appropriate
    Pema Pera: yes
    Storm Nordwind: At the moment, Maxine, I think we are communally deciding and iterating. The PaB sessions (that I'm talking about) are different as I think a year and a half of iterating has shown it fairly clearly
    Pema Pera: though I think that the average session could be improved a lot stil in terms of focus and engagement
    Storm Nordwind: And I am thinking, Pema, that the focus could be improved if there were opportunities for what you might call off-focus things elsewhere or elsewhen
    Pema Pera: as we are doing more and more, with book club and other meetings in the Village
    Fael Illyar: best if it's both elsewhere and elsewhen.

    Maybe we can choose a topic before the guardian meeting to discuss then?

    Pema Pera: Maxine, do you think it would help to choose a topic in advance, before this weekly guardian meeting, for everyone to reflect on?
    Pema Pera: yes, Fael, better not to overlap with PaB times
    Maxine Walden: It seems to me that we as guardians may be coming to these meetings with hopes to share, learn, cohere...I am wondering, Pema if it might be good to choose a kind of topic or sector for thought for these meetings. wonder what others think?
    Widget Whiteberry: the between guardian meeting email threads seem a source of topics
    Lia Rikugun: i would like to have a topic in mind before the meeting
    doug Sosa: A predecided topic just adds more rigidity. An alternative is to go around the room and have everyone say the topic most on their minds, and then let the group process focus.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It'd be good for me at least because I like having some time to think before actual meetings.
    doug Sosa: In the guardian meetings
    Storm Nordwind: Let's go round the room on the email list instead doug!
    Wol Euler nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Even with the 'struggle' discussions at PaB, I get a lot more out because I had time to think a bit and look around my life before the actual session.
    Pema Pera: /nods 2
    Widget Whiteberry: Storm +++
    Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
    Eos Amaterasu: Maybe Maxine could propose a topic, next Friday, for next Sunday's guardian mtg
    Maxine Walden: uh oh...hmmm...
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Eos Amaterasu: (lobby Maxine (by email!))
    stevenaia Michinaga: no pressure, Maxine
    Pema Pera: :)
    Widget Whiteberry: or on Saturday we could dedicate an email thread to what's on people's minds
    Pema Pera: I like that idea, Widget!
    Maxine Walden: we could try that, and I would be willing to have a go at a topic, but it might also seem too narrow for some...
    Gaya Ethaniel: By Sat would be better for me, I'm not around on Sats.
    Maxine Walden: yes, I like that idea too, W2
    Pema Pera: but how about Friday instead? Time zones may cause lag
    Pema Pera: So someone, like Maxine (hint hint) starts a thread on Friday
    Pema Pera: and we all join in, if we want
    stevenaia Michinaga: or perhaps just asks
    Maxine Walden: OK,OK I will give it a try!!
    Pema Pera: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: applause!
    Maxine Walden: :)))
    Pema Pera: clap clap clap
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Maxine :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bows
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Storm Nordwind: And we are all self-discplined enough not to go tangentally on the thread, but to start new ones or simply wait if we want to weigh in deeply or at length
    Maxine Walden: now, just a minute, which email group do we use for this Friday strand? Do we have one just for guardians?
    Pema Pera: playasbeing
    Pema Pera: at google.com
    Pema Pera: oops, yes, sorry
    Pema Pera: that's the only one we got
    Maxine Walden: is playasbeing just for guardians? guess so....humm
    Pema Pera: yes
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Maxine Walden: OK, interesting I had lost sight of that!!
    Pema Pera: and it is not public
    Maxine Walden: was thinking of the wider PaB community

    Should we wait longer for a guardian candidate to be nominated so that we can get to know him before?

    Gaya Ethaniel: I have a request actually.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Can we have a longer period to consider a guardian candidate than now from the point they are nominated?
    Pema Pera: sure, how long would you like, Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: At the moment, it seems a few days or so after nomination, a person is asked accepted but I would like some time to read any logs they have been in or chance to meet him in person.
    Gaya Ethaniel: 1-2 weeks not sure what do you all think?
    Maxine Walden: interesting point, Gaya
    Pema Pera: if somebody asks, to let that person wait two weeks may be a bit long; how about 1 week?
    Eos Amaterasu: Seems fine, does put more of an onus on someone to track the process when it happens over time
    Eos Amaterasu: re GE
    stevenaia Michinaga: the threads are dated
    Pema Pera: Eliza will accept any volunteer happy to oversee the process :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: maybe that could be their mentor
    Gaya Ethaniel: How do people generally go about? Do you talk about the possibility to the person before nominating her/him to the group? Or suggest a name in the group first before talking to the person?
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the idea of more room there... a week seems sufficient
    Eos Amaterasu: joining topics :-)
    Pema Pera: seriously, Eliza is the coordinator for all things guardians in this respect, but she needs others to help her carry out all that work
    Pema Pera: it depends, Gaya, both cases happen
    Widget Whiteberry: I would not have minded waiting a week, or even two, from the time I was suggested
    Eos Amaterasu: How about if someone nominates a person, they become their "shepherd" for joining the flock :-)
    Pema Pera: often I ask someone first, saving us the trouble to discuss someone if they are not interested
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, and we really don't want to talk to someone ahead of time, and then there be an issue
    Wol Euler: did you know that you had been suggested, Widget?
    Eliza Madrigal: it is better to bring it within our group first
    Gaya Ethaniel: I feel that it's best to just nominate a person to the group first?
    Pema Pera: it depends, Eliza, I have not encountered problems with people who seemed a sure fit
    Maxine Walden: differing opinions here...
    Pema Pera: like Widget :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: if it's a week, there wuld be at least one guardian meeting to possibly discuss the candidate
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes I agree.. otherwise they might be concerned while waiting...
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes I suppose I imagine the awkwardness of getting someone excited perhaps
    Pema Pera: but if I have my doubts, then I prefer first to ask the group, not nice to reject somebody
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Neela Blaisdale: and then feeling rejected...
    Widget Whiteberry: Pema told me in advance and explained the process
    Eliza Madrigal: exactly
    Neela Blaisdale: yes Pema
    Widget Whiteberry: phew, guess I was lucky
    Eliza Madrigal: haha... a no-brainer Widget :)
    Pema Pera: another example I'm about to bring up is someone I have known in RL personally for five years, and worked together with -- in that case I asked him beforehand, a few times, he now agreed to be candidate.
    Pema Pera: if I had brought him up earlier, we would have had to go through the process a few times, putting extra pressure on him
    Pema Pera: (I'll send an email today)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes that seems very particular, also... not often that we know potential guardians in RL
    Pema Pera: so I guess we can be flexible, and all use our best judgment
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. That's an unusual case, RL recommendation. I guess I'm talking more generally about candidiates within/from SL.
    Widget Whiteberry grins at the thought of PaB and 'no-brainer'
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Pema Pera: all heart and soul, WW!
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Maxine Walden: seems we are coming to the end of the hour...
    Pema Pera: well, a good point to end our meeting perhaps?
    Maxine Walden: seems so
    Eliza Madrigal raises hand
    Pila Mulligan: bye everyone
    Storm Nordwind: Pumpkin time for anyone?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye...
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye everyone, Thanks so much
    Maxine Walden: bye all
    Adams Dubrovna: bye everyone :)
    Pema Pera: thank you all !
    Widget Whiteberry: pumpkin time?
    Lia Rikugun: byebye
    Eos Amaterasu notes the Princeton board room where the RL retreat was held is now in SL, thanks to SophiaSharon
    Wol Euler: bye, take care.
    Fael Illyar: bye everyone :)
    Storm Nordwind: Cinderella et al Widget
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Neela Blaisdale: Pumpkin Storm?
    Widget Whiteberry: this was wonderful, thank you all
    Storm Nordwind: The Cinderella fairy story Neela
    Neela Blaisdale: Ah... a little slow today:)
    Lia Rikugun: good bye see you all next time
    Lia Rikugun: will post the log :)
    Wol Euler: bye! enjoy your sundays
    Eos Amaterasu: bye all
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye everyone...
    Fael Illyar waves.

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