2009.11.16 13:00 - Metaphors, death and pomposity

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind, standing in for Stim Morane. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

    Checking last week's session with Stim at the helm, one titled "Intuition", I wondered if there was any natural carry-over to this week. Qt elaborates, and mentions a technical metaphor he uses for intuition.

    Qt Core: Hi Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Qt
    Storm Nordwind: This is normally Stim's slot, but he cannot get a reliable connection today
    Storm Nordwind: So I will take over for him
    Qt Core: ok
    Storm Nordwind: Last week at this time, I think the subject was "Intuition"
    Qt Core: don't remember when but remember the topic, its nature and ven its existence
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Storm Nordwind: Do you remember whether there were any unanswered questions arising from the discussion? Or linked topics of interest?
    Storm Nordwind: Good afternoon Solo
    Qt Core: hi solo
    Solobill Laville: Hiya, Storm, QT! :)
    Storm Nordwind: I'm pretending to be Stim today
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: You don't look much like him, but I'll pretend... ;)
    Storm Nordwind: You can impute Stim onto my impure aggregates if you like! ;)
    Qt Core: well, the two most opposite position went away each one still firm in their idea, existence and inexistence of intuition
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Pema Pera: Hi Solo and Storm and Qt!
    Storm Nordwind: Welcome Pema!
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Pema :)
    Qt Core: Hi Pema
    Storm Nordwind: I see Qt. I'll take the middle way: pragmatism. If it's useful and reasonably predicatble, then it doesn't matter what I call it, I'll use it!
    Pema Pera: Hi again, Calvino!
    Qt Core: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi there
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Calvino
    Qt Core: hi Calvino
    Solobill Laville: Greetings, Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: good to see you all
    Storm Nordwind: You too! Stim's connection is flaky today so I'll take the log
    Qt Core: my position is still the same intuition is the result of background/parallel thread of thought we are not aware of
    Qt Core: that is until 6th,7th and 8th sense are proved ;-)
    Solobill Laville: Hmm...can you go on about parallel thread of thought, QT?
    Qt Core: i think we/i are/am not aware of most brain activity, and taking someting from COntact i think having a thought a time is a waste of resources ;-)
    Pema Pera sneaking out for a quick cup of tea, brb)
    Solobill Laville: OK, thx, so it is a matter of our brains silent work :)
    Qt Core: yes, i always use terminology taken from my job as a programmer and call it background jobs
    Solobill Laville nods and smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: :) snuck my own tea simultaneously
    Storm Nordwind: To use your terminology Qt, is it possible to control the background task? Or to influence it in your view? Or is it free-running?
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Yak!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Solobill Laville: Hiya, Yak :)
    Qt Core: a little influence can be given just rolling some words/idea on your own mind
    Storm Nordwind: So some kind of meditation?
    Qt Core: but not a specific "order"
    Qt Core: hi yak
    Pema Pera: (back)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi scath
    Qt Core: don't know i never really tried meditation
    Pema Pera: Hi Yaku and Scath!
    Solobill Laville: Hello, Scath :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Wester!
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Scáth
    Qt Core: but then , isn't meditation a conscious things, this intuition isn't
    Qt Core: hi scath
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Wester :)
    Storm Nordwind: Would you not say that the 9 second PaB practice is a kind of meditation Qt?
    Solobill Laville: (seat between me and Storm is open, Scath) :)
    Qt Core: yes, i was thinking about more formal (and long) types
    Scathach Rhiadra: if I could just see you solo:)
    Solobill Laville: (ah, sorry)
    Qt Core: got it !
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah:), can see now:)
    Qt tells us of a vivid experience he had regarding intuition.
    Qt Core: i still remember my best episode of this kind of intuition ... more than 20 years after it happened ;-)
    Solobill Laville listens
    Storm Nordwind: Oh? :)
    Wester Kiranov: tell us
    Qt Core: 2nd year of secondary school (about 14/15 then)
    Calvino Rabeni: Qt I have a metaphor for you. Mindfulness is like a computer bus. You plug in many separate processing units.
    Pema Pera: Hi Cal!
    Qt Core: i was having trouble with some math concept and was quite angry about that
    Caledonia Heron: hi :)
    Qt Core: hi cal
    Solobill Laville: Hi Cal! :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Cal:)
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Qt Core: so i went out to my volleyball lesson a little early and then, alone in the gym i almost saw the pieces coming togheter and a great peace of mind
    Qt Core: the next written test was a huge success too!
    Qt Core: it was a changing point in my math understanding
    Pema Pera: isn't it amazing how our mind can process in that way!
    Solobill Laville: Was there anything that triggered it do you think?
    Qt Core: i almost think mi mind rewired itself a little that day
    Wester Kiranov: did it change anything else?
    Qt Core: interesting metaphor calvino
    Wester Kiranov: not that this isn't enough ;)
    Solobill Laville wonders of the relationship between intuition and creativity...and getting our of our own way
    Qt Core: mmm, that was the months i first got my hand on a computer, don't remember the exact relative posistion in time of those two episode
    Qt comments on the Calvino's continuation of his technical metaphor.
    Qt Core: for your metaphor calvino i'm doubting if adding input peripherals and motherboard health sensors would be a better one
    Pema Pera: hi Eden!
    Wester Kiranov: hi eden
    Calvino Rabeni: the brain isnt a sequential device, so perhaps that makes sense. What did you mean>?
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eden
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Eden
    Eden Haiku: hello!
    Qt Core: considering mind/brain power to be constant an increased awareness would be due to more imputs (why i flle like Johnny 5 ?)
    Qt Core: file=feel
    Calvino Rabeni: well in that analogy perhaps the programming could be improved to make better use of the "power"
    Qt Core: sure!
    Calvino Rabeni: Its still a dicey analogy because it doesn't consider quality of information issues.
    Qt Core: hi Arch
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Arch
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello arch
    Wester Kiranov: hi arch
    Pema Pera: hi Arch!
    Pema Pera: Calvino, Wol and I had two "theme sessions" last month on using computer debugging as a metaphor for spiritual practice: see http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...e_as_debugging and http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...ng%2c_part_two
    Calvino Rabeni: ty
    The conversation fizzles out and we all just sit, the silence punctuated only by fidgeting!
    Archmage Atlantis: To sit in the center is to be
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi arch
    Archmage Atlantis: All sit here
    Archmage Atlantis: Sorry, difficult dreams in sleep
    Archmage Atlantis: Nead to reorient
    Archmage Atlantis: Go ahead with the conversation, I appreciate that you allow me to be here
    Pema Pera: I guess we're all in a quiet mood, Arch :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Solobill Laville smiles at Arch
    Calvino asks a question about the chat logging. This seems to act as a magical invocation, as Wol appears out of thin air!
    Calvino Rabeni: May I ask, who wrote the chat log tagging guidelines,and is that an active initiative?
    Pema Pera: I think that was done a year ago, don't remember anymore by whom
    Solobill Laville: I think it was Wol, yes?
    Wester Kiranov: hi wol
    Pema Pera: ha Wol, we're talking about ya!
    Wol Euler: oops
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Wol Euler: shall I leave?
    Pema Pera: nonono
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Solobill Laville: hehe, it was me....!
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello wol
    Eden Haiku: Hi Wol!
    Solobill Laville: All good, I assure you!
    Qt Core: hi wol
    Pema Pera: [13:37] Calvino Rabeni: May I ask, who wrote the chat log tagging guidelines,and is that an active initiative? [13:38] Wol Euler is Online [13:38] Pema Pera: I think that was done a year ago, don't remember anymore by whom [13:38] Solobill Laville: I think it was Wol, yes?
    Storm Nordwind: Staple her feet to the pavilion floor, quick!
    Pema Pera: calling spirits from the deep . . . .
    Wol Euler laughs
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi wol good night everyone
    Wol Euler: no, I wasn't the original author. I amended and updated what I found there
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Yak
    Wol Euler: 'night yaku
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Yakuzza
    Wester Kiranov: bye yaku
    Qt Core: 'night Yaku
    Solo wonders about the usefulness in spiritual practice of a technical metaphor.
    Solobill Laville: Well, with Wol here now, would the two of you consider the computer debugging
    Solobill Laville: metaphor a good one in terms of spiritual practice?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: in an applied way
    Pema Pera: for debugging one's day-to-day life
    Solobill Laville: ah
    Pema Pera: not as an attempt to analyze -- that's different
    Wol Euler: yes, I would agree. It's an analogy, an attempt at a description in a mirror :)
    Wol Euler: not a prescription of an actual activity
    Solobill Laville thinks he has too many programs that run at start-up ;)
    Qt Core: just a disposition of mind
    Pema Pera: like repairing a car: when something is wrong you "wiggle the wires" to find out where the problem lies
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wester comments on the equivocation!
    Wester Kiranov: A yes-and-no answer. who would have guessed ;)
    Wol Euler: :-P
    Pema Pera: :)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Wol Euler: the older I get, the more questions seem to me to be truthfully answerable that way
    Pema Pera: so death is the ultimate yes and no, yes?
    Wol Euler: maybe :)
    Solobill Laville: no ;)
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Storm Nordwind: whose?
    But an interesting topic springs out of this shifting ground.
    Wester Kiranov: I think even before death you can get to 'places' where the difference between yes and no disappears
    Storm Nordwind: Would you say that was a worthwhile place to be in Wester? And if so, how would you get there?
    Calvino Rabeni: And what "space" is the "Place" in?
    Wester Kiranov: I think so it's one of the things I notice in any 'spiritual' experience, opposites collapse into one another
    Wester Kiranov: Qt's story reminded me of my one Really Big Spiritual Experience, and it was THE thing there. I remember some sound bites, like "here is everywhere", but I don't knoe how to get there. I might already be there.
    Wester Kiranov: But then I don't know how to see that, agian.
    Wester Kiranov: calvino: space is just a metaphor here, of course.
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, like the subject/object dichotimy - might that be one of the collapsed opposites?
    Pema Pera: yes, we can never force those experiences, nor repeat them . . . .
    Pema Pera: but we can continue to practice and stay open for them
    Wester Kiranov: calvino: yes. definitely
    Archmage Atlantis: It is my belief, and mine only, that enlightenment is an evolutionary process
    Wester Kiranov: never read any Ken Wilber then?
    Wester Kiranov: He believes it too.
    Calvino Rabeni: W K, yes, the metaphor could have a spatial component
    Wol Euler googles Ken Wilber
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, the tagging guidelines derive from Ken Wilber
    Wester Kiranov: :D
    Wol Euler: oh, wait, you mentioned him once before, didn't you? "Integral theory" ...
    Archmage Atlantis: Sounds like theoretical math Calvino, my first love
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, geometry has enchanted many
    Wester Kiranov: I might have. He is sort of in my system, even though I don't agree with all he says anymore
    We all knew what Arch meant now, but it was fun the way he said it!
    Archmage Atlantis: All the great mathematicians I knew of also embraced math
    Archmage Atlantis: All saw small pieces
    Archmage Atlantis: We continue to grow and evolve
    Archmage Atlantis: Yet we are all of creation
    Archmage Atlantis: Yikes, did I say that?
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Wol Euler laughs. You did, Arch, you did.
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Solobill Laville: It is on the record.... :)
    Storm Nordwind still has the quill in his inky hand
    Archmage Atlantis: Well that is one of the benefits of being insane :)\
    Archmage Atlantis: And falling asleep
    There is some general exiting as the time has marched on relentlessly.
    Solobill Laville bids goodbye to all :)
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Solo
    Wester Kiranov: bye solo
    Wol Euler: *'night solo, take care
    Pema Pera slips away quietly too
    Qt Core: bye solo
    Wester Kiranov: bye pema
    Wol Euler: bye pema, enjoy the evening
    Archmage Atlantis: Bon jour
    Scathach Rhiadra: me too, good night all:)
    Wester Kiranov: bye scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: Namasté
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    Wol Euler: bye scath, sleep well; bye storm
    Wol Euler: oh, sorry :)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Wester Kiranov: namaste
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, at least I can still clear a room
    Wol Euler: automatic reaction when I see someone stand :)
    Wester Kiranov: I think I'll leave too.
    Wol Euler: 'night wester
    We talk about SL stuff for a while, the lack of nuance in animations, the fun of gardening, and then somehow we touch again upon death.
    Archmage Atlantis: The other night Storm, you bowed deeply before leaving
    Storm Nordwind: I did. But sometimes I simply bow to reciprocate a courtesy.
    Archmage Atlantis: That is not how it felt
    Storm Nordwind: I usually don't try to control the feelings of other people! :)
    Wol Euler smiles
    Archmage Atlantis: Nor I, I simply observe
    Storm Nordwind: Animations in Second Life are rarely nuanced enough to allow for such shades of expression
    Wol Euler: we read a lot into them, pehaps, as we actively read past each others' typos and omissions
    Storm Nordwind: Aye we do Wol, right enough
    Wol Euler: trying to infer meaning from the scraps that are available
    Qt Core: but the last two may say something
    Archmage Atlantis: Your wisteria, Storm?
    Storm Nordwind: I bought it Arch. I let others create it! :)
    Wol Euler: collage is also creative :)
    Archmage Atlantis: You chose it
    Storm Nordwind: Yes I arranged, chose, landscaped... you are blowing my facade of modesty!
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: caught in the act.
    Storm Nordwind shrugs
    Archmage Atlantis: The wisteria have feet
    Storm Nordwind: Like Wol's feet, I've stapled them to the sim
    Wol Euler: :)
    Storm Nordwind: It's fun being a gardener in SL when I cannot be in RL
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah, that has meaning to me
    Wol Euler nods
    Storm Nordwind smiles at Arch
    Qt Core: i think my black thumb would kill plants even here ;-)
    Archmage Atlantis: I am of life
    Storm Nordwind: I had fun scripting the vines too
    Archmage Atlantis: I seek those who chose it
    Wol Euler: scripting?
    Wol Euler looks around
    Storm Nordwind: Most hanging vines in SL are just flexy and bend with the wind. But it looks most unnatural as there's no account of turbulence. I introduced turbulence!
    Wol Euler: wow :)
    Archmage Atlantis: You know wisteria are a vine that strangles trees, yes Storm?
    Qt Core: what will be life without some healthy chaos ?
    Calvino Rabeni: life would be dumber
    Storm Nordwind: Indeed Qt. Arch, they are not so bad as rhodadendrons at that.
    Archmage Atlantis: Do the trees give their life for new life, or for some other thing?
    Storm Nordwind: All the universe gives its particles for one imputed form after another without ceasing, Arch
    Wol Euler: perhaps death by strangling vine is better than being sawn up to make toothpicks?
    Archmage Atlantis: Your answer please, not the formula
    Storm Nordwind: That's my answer Arch.
    Archmage Atlantis: To die, perhaps to dream
    Archmage Atlantis: Yet in that dream of death
    Archmage Atlantis: etc
    Storm Nordwind: Well Wol... I suspect the choice of death, by vine or saw, depends whether you're a tree ... or a human!
    Archmage Atlantis: All entity is alive
    Wol Euler: "death is no different whined at than withstood" as Philip Larkin said
    Qt Core: time to go, goodnight everyone
    Storm Nordwind: Goodnight Qt!
    Wol Euler: goodnight qt, sleep well
    Qt Core: ciao!
    Calvino Rabeni: Hm, guess that "death" quote refers to "Big" happiness perhaps
    Archmage Atlantis: Ciao
    Storm Nordwind: Interesting Arch... I remember asking a group of Buddhists something like that a long long time ago. I was discussing their vegetarianism and wondered what difference they saw in plants
    Archmage Atlantis: There is not difference in plants to me, they chose
    We continue again seriously, but general amusement blossoms out of a wonderful typo!
    Wol Euler: what is "'big' happiness? did I miss that earlier?
    Calvino Rabeni: Something in the logs of a prior session.
    Calvino Rabeni: Any one remember it?
    Storm Nordwind rarely gets time to read all the other logs
    Wol Euler shakes her head
    Calvino Rabeni: Or perhaps it was an event in the kira cage.
    Calvino Rabeni: cafe :)
    Storm Nordwind: Nice typo Cal!
    Wol Euler: a kira cage would be good!
    Wol Euler: storm???
    Wol Euler: can you .... ?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Cage or Cafe, interesting
    Storm Nordwind: hmm... I'm sure I could ;)
    Wol Euler: one man's prison is anohter man's yacht
    Storm Nordwind: For debates perhaps. Two enter. One leaves? ;)
    Wol Euler: right.
    Calvino Rabeni: The question something like, can happiness not have todo with emotions, preferences, and conditions
    Archmage Atlantis: Why only one?
    Wol Euler: the chair of metaphor crashes over the head of simile.
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Calvino Rabeni: Metaphor smackdown!
    Wol Euler laughs
    Wol Euler: oh, we should. really.
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght, make i as dynamic as the onigaka
    Storm Nordwind thinks it's somthing that Humph would have said
    Archmage Atlantis: Who can be one's refuge, one is one's own refuge
    Calvino Rabeni: wonderful question
    Storm Nordwind: many layered
    Wol Euler nods
    Calvino Rabeni: A whole seminar would be warranted
    Archmage Atlantis: 42, suppose
    Archmage Atlantis: The dream and the stories continue
    Wol Euler: as with "yes and no", 42 answers a lot of questions.
    Archmage Atlantis: And questions a a lot of answers sister
    Wol brings up a topic recently discussed, both in this pavilion and elsewhere, about what we should use the time for. In other words, what kinds of conversations are most appropriate to the Play as Being pavilion sessions?
    Wol Euler: so, storm, how are we doing? can we call this level three?
    Storm Nordwind shrugs
    Archmage Atlantis: I think this is my call
    Storm Nordwind: It's kind of wishy-washy.
    Archmage Atlantis: we are beyound level 5
    Storm Nordwind: I tried to steer into level 2 at one point, but it escaped
    Wol Euler nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, I don't have that codebook
    Wol Euler: arch, I was asking about a mail conversation we had had some days ago, where Storm was talking about the levels of PaB in discussions here
    Storm Nordwind: But this is not really my slot and I multitasking, sadly
    Wol Euler: level 1 was pure PaB, the practice itself
    Wol Euler: (correct me when I go wrong)
    Storm Nordwind: OK so far
    Wol Euler: level 2 was applied PaB, talking about *doing* the practice and its immediate effects in my life
    Wol Euler: level 3 is what we were doing when I arrived, talking about talking about PaB
    Storm Nordwind: Theme sessions also fit into that. For example...
    Storm Nordwind: discussions on meditation, prayer, etc
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: perhaps those are actually 2' -- on a forked path?
    Storm Nordwind: Beyond that we have personal or group therapy, chitchat, sport >x< etc
    Storm Nordwind: Well I'm not rigid...
    Wol Euler: :)
    Storm Nordwind: the point is this...
    Storm Nordwind: We're trying to use a single space and a single time for all sorts of things
    Storm Nordwind: and the boundaries are difficult to guess
    Storm Nordwind: and are subjective
    Wol Euler nods
    Storm Nordwind: This is a precious session to my mind
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Storm Nordwind: and to my mind might be best used for levels 1 and 2
    Storm Nordwind: Especially when there are visitors
    Storm Nordwind: and when people are finding their feet in the practice
    Storm Nordwind: But that does not preclude other meetings
    Calvino Rabeni: So there is an implicit value associated to te levels, perhaps
    Storm Nordwind: and I would welcome and encourage those
    Storm Nordwind: No Cal, not really
    Storm Nordwind: More of an appropriateness to the time and place
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght
    Storm Nordwind: We can have all sorts of sessions in many times and venues
    Archmage Atlantis: That is judgement Storm, do you not see ?
    Calvino Rabeni: If it sounds like joking and chitchat, is it likely to be level 4?
    Storm Nordwind: And we've already started those, in a light sort of way, from personal initiatives
    Storm Nordwind: Yes it is Arch. very much so.
    Calvino Rabeni: er, it is judjment but nt value ?
    Storm Nordwind: I want Play as Being to be available for the widest possible audience, and I want to suggest things that might enable that
    Archmage Atlantis: In my mind/soul/heart value is judgement
    Archmage Atlantis: all has value
    Wol Euler: but not all value is the same.
    Wol Euler: surely?
    Storm Nordwind: That is my belief Wol.
    Storm Nordwind: Although values change
    Storm Nordwind: and measuring sticks change
    Storm Nordwind: and what is valuable to one is not to another
    Why am I interested in doing this?
    Storm Nordwind: But I would like as many people as possible to be able to be given that choice!
    Calvino Rabeni: Idea of widest audience seems to be about appropriatness to a context ofr people
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, we have each value
    Storm Nordwind nods to Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: But woul it be, those who are present today, or those who may read the log, or somethin derived fromit
    Calvino Rabeni: Etc.
    Archmage Atlantis: it is a conundrum
    Storm Nordwind: Play as Being is a practice. An exploration. It is not a venue or a discussion. It's something that some find useful, some find valuable, some find fun, some find pleasurable... many many things to different people. I would like to help offer it to the world.
    A momentous pause after a grandiose statement! Perhaps I'm get too pompous after being here for 2 hours. Perhaps it's time to go.
    Archmage Atlantis: Storm and Pema created PaG
    Archmage Atlantis: Play as goodness
    Wol Euler: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: That is obvious to me
    Archmage Atlantis: That knowledge and the other stuff will be passed
    Archmage Atlantis: My name is not false
    Archmage Atlantis: My true njame
    Archmage Atlantis: is Robert
    Archmage Atlantis: it is celtic for brave in heart
    Archmage Atlantis: Names have meaning
    Calvino Rabeni: So do words
    Storm Nordwind: Robert is of Old German origin, rather than Gaelic or Brethonic, and its meaning is "bright fame"
    Calvino Rabeni: These names may remind you of something
    Storm Nordwind: It is nearly two hours since I sat down, and my knees are rather stiff!
    Wol Euler: nearly midnight, I should go too. It's been a good discussion, thank you all.
    Storm Nordwind: Thank you Wol. Sleep tight
    Wol Euler: goodnight! take care, be happy.
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, all.
    Archmage Atlantis: Namaste.......a person told he that means from my god to yours
    Storm Nordwind: Good day to both of you. :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
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