2009.11.24 13:00 - A Confabulous Session

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.


     Wol Euler: that was a really good discussion on Sunday, such a pity you had to leave early.
        Mickorod Renard: who me?
        Wol Euler: mmhmm, we were talking about forgiveness
        Mickorod Renard: oh yes
        Mickorod Renard: you know, I hope nobody takes me too serious,,I do play the devils advocate a bit
        Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
        Mickorod Renard: just to stimulate lialog
        Mickorod Renard: diolog
        Mickorod Renard: oh well,,u know what i mean
        Mickorod Renard: and did it reach a conclusion,,he he
        Wol Euler: several.
        Mickorod Renard: I think its a paradoxical subject
        Wol Euler: Maxine's posted it already, btw.
        Wol Euler: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/11/2009.11.22_13:00_-_On_Forgiveness
        Mickorod Renard: wow great,,I will look it up
        Calvino Rabeni: how paradoxibal, mick?
        Wol Euler: you should, we carried on for your benefit :)
        Mickorod Renard: he he ,,good spelling eh?
        Mickorod Renard: I am re inventing the english language
        Calvino Rabeni: COined a good new word then
        Mickorod Renard: it comes from a mix of typing in the dark , on a new keyboard,,and being rubbish at typing too
        Wol Euler: :)
        Mickorod Renard: I have changed all my light bulbs for these energy efficient ones
        Wol Euler: ha, and they are dimmer?
        Mickorod Renard: they are great as long as you dont want to see anything
        Wol Euler chuckles
        Mickorod Renard: but someone has to save the planet
        Calvino Rabeni: you can touch type = juage line thois
        Mickorod Renard: you may be able to,,not me..;)
        Calvino Rabeni: I have decided to meditate on my computer
        arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
        Mickorod Renard: you wont break it will you?
        Calvino Rabeni: Oddly, it is something I've not done yet, nor heard of anyone else doing
        Qt Core: i once found a mp3 for helping meditation online... 30 minutes of silence, with a bell at the end
        Calvino Rabeni: I don't sit on top of it :)
        Wol Euler: qt, I have a cd like that :)
        Calvino Rabeni: A small file then.
        Mickorod Renard: is it similar to how those mystics sit on a pillar for several months?
        Qt Core: but then... the fans, the hard disks....
        Calvino Rabeni: Maybe like sitting inside a circle on the ground.
        Wol Euler: that sounds vaguely familiar, Calvino....
        Qt Core: the idea of using it in a mp3 player and hearphones.. for silence... i laughed for several minutes
        Calvino Rabeni: Some kind of metaphor for everyday consciousness
        Calvino Rabeni: Seems funny, yes
        Qt Core: (not that this 90 sec pause is much different) ;-)
        Qt Core: but we have the birds!
        Calvino Rabeni: I have the box with fans and hard disk in a closet, so the focus would be on the keyboard and screen
        Mickorod Renard: you could do meditation and phenemology at the same time
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is the notion. I don't know of any published studies that combine HCI and phenomenology (HCI - human computer interface)
        Calvino Rabeni: we see the interface - sw see through the interface - it seems a weird mixture
        Mickorod Renard: there is an interesting phenemology club within kira ,,on fridays
        Calvino Rabeni: due to the many breakdowns
        Calvino Rabeni: I recently noticed that
        Calvino Rabeni: there is a lot of material on kira sites - I am trying to catch up
        Wol Euler nods. Over a year of the workshop, I believe.
        Mickorod Renard: I enjotyed the sessions prior to this new time table,,unfortunately I am busy when this one is on
        Mickorod Renard: so what is your specialist subject/interest Calvino,,I have never asked
        Mickorod Renard: if you have one,,as I dont realy
        Calvino Rabeni: I am a generalist, but it clusters around technology and consciousness. My paid work has been in information / knowledge engineering.
        Mickorod Renard: wow
        Wol Euler smiles
        arabella Ella: :)
        Mickorod Renard: is there any part that you may think we would be interested in,,like some revelation?
        Calvino Rabeni: complex software systems - i had some interesting jobs, but reflected on them in context of several esoteric interests
        Mickorod Renard: intriguing
        Wol Euler: esoteric interests are always interesting :)
        Calvino Rabeni: :) :)
        arabella Ella: esoteric ... listens ...
        Mickorod Renard: now you have made me hungry for more Cal
        Mickorod Renard: anything to do with Ai?
        Calvino Rabeni: It is very mundane, actually - I don't mean esoteric as in arcane philosophical systems
        Qt Core: some unusual weird hardware / software combination, then ?
        Calvino Rabeni: I only did a little in AI proper - some in virtual reality - a lot kind of at semantic level
        Calvino Rabeni: BUt on that topic, I've been interested in confabulation theory
        Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
        Mickorod Renard: whats that please?
        Qt Core: ?
        Calvino Rabeni: QT, are you referring to the human brain :)
        Qt Core: yeah, weirdes OS i know, right
        Qt Core: weirdest
        Wol Euler: http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Confabulation_theory
        Calvino Rabeni: confabulation theory is a theory about
        Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, you have to be careful with these definitions, because they are not settled as a paradigm
        Calvino Rabeni: That is not a bad summary
        Calvino Rabeni: I think it is immature though
        Wol Euler: in the sense of "unripe" I trust.
        Calvino Rabeni: Kind of comes from neural connectionism, I gather
        Calvino Rabeni: right, I meant in that sense. It is a little too enthusiastic with its premises - more of a proposal than a theory
        Calvino Rabeni: But that is worthwhile
        Mickorod Renard: sounds fun,,to think about it
        Calvino Rabeni: It is intersteing the conection between thought and the idea that it is an evolutionary refinement of *movement*
        Calvino Rabeni: Because that challenges the classic notions
        Mickorod Renard: yes, i noticed that
        Wol Euler: I find that somewhat odd.
        Calvino Rabeni: THe classic notions have no movement in them
        Mickorod Renard: but perhaps a developement rather than an evolution,,if theres a dirference
        Calvino Rabeni: in that there is a passive homunculus in the mind, receiving sensation
        Calvino Rabeni: OK, a development or ramification.
        Mickorod Renard: sorry, I wasnt challenging your use of evolution,,he he
        Mickorod Renard: didnt see it at first
        arabella Ella: why only in humans then?
        Calvino Rabeni: Just interested in your meaning.
        Mickorod Renard: not only
        Wol Euler nods to Ara. Indeed.
        Calvino Rabeni: area, I think they just don't want to get too much challenge at this point
        Wol Euler: and if it's taken literally, it would also probably rule out AIs.
        Mickorod Renard: interesting point Wol
        Wol Euler: at least emergent, self generatings ones
        Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps not, if they are constructed as simulations of humans.
        arabella Ella: or you could go for the opposite extreme Wol and it could be developed or 'cultivated' in AI following movement which is an 'animal' motor thing
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, AI's are getting embedded / embodied.
        Wol Euler: so it might spontaneously arise... yes, good point
        arabella Ella: although in philosophy there is a huge contrast between action and events ... the former requiring intention, the latter more 'mechanical' or cause / effect
        Calvino Rabeni: a kind of artificial separation?
        Calvino Rabeni: It seems to presuppose the subject/object distinction
        Calvino Rabeni: so it is built into philosophy
        arabella Ella: action is generally taken (in philosophy) to involve desire, belief and intention (mental stuff)
        Wol Euler: but surely so does intelligence itself?
        Calvino Rabeni: seemingly
        Wol Euler: the first step to thinking about things outside myself is to realize that htey exist.
        Calvino Rabeni: isn't that a natural given?
        Wol Euler: true, but it is *also* the subject/object distinction :)
        Calvino Rabeni: ok, what abouthaving the triad include subject - action - object?
        Calvino Rabeni: As in the common language forms of SVO (subject verb object)
        Calvino Rabeni: In that view maybe there is more room for the "movement"
        arabella Ella: not sure what you are implying there Calvino or how you bring the three concepts together?
        Calvino Rabeni: (waiting for QT)
        Mickorod Renard: what I find interesting is the degree of sophistication the human brain/mind or whatever has grown to,,yet there are several elements it hasnt

    developed,,like sonar or radar,,is that silly?..of me
        arabella Ella: what i find to be the most interesting aspect in this position is that the CNS (central nervous system) is also key for movement ... NO CNS no movement
        Mickorod Renard: bats and dolphins use other sources of information gathering
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes. We are theorizing, and I think that can inform the phenomenological study
        Qt Core: (reading the webpage and rearranging his mental connections)
        arabella Ella: :)
        Calvino Rabeni: anna's point, well taken
        arabella Ella: careful how you re-arrange them Qt
        arabella Ella: ehrm ... Ara you mean Calvino?
        Qt Core: mostly end up with the Trek neuron ;-)
        Calvino Rabeni: I meant, it seems to me when I do self observation
        arabella Ella: (introspection?)
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes I meant ara earlier
        arabella Ella: :)
        Qt Core: i'm thinking about the connections of this motion-based intelligence and the birth of sense apparatuses
        Calvino Rabeni: Introspection, yes, observing having an experience, that sensation and movement are completely inseparable
        Calvino Rabeni: yet in theory our classic models separate them completely
        Qt Core: first cells reacting to light,smell/flavour/electricity
        Calvino Rabeni: as a matter that affects our ontology
        Calvino Rabeni: Sure, there are afferent and efferent nerves, but in the brain thyere appears to be a highly integrated mix of some kind
        Calvino Rabeni: And experience is not a matter of waiting passivly for a signal, computing with it, and then outputting a motion.
        Mickorod Renard: as we were supposedly marine borne species,,I wonder how many neural pathways we have redundant that could have developed in the past?
        Qt Core: i sadly have to go, bye all
        Calvino Rabeni: Hard to tell. The brain is fairly elastic in its ability to redirect
        Mickorod Renard: I read in new scientist some time ago that elolutionary changes can happen very quickly in a spieces
        Mickorod Renard: evolutionary*
        Calvino Rabeni: There seems a little neural network fundamentalism in confabulation theory, but I suspect it is on the right track.
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, evolution is not as gradual as once thought.
        Mickorod Renard: I must read up on it Calvino,,its well out of my depth..very interesting
        Wol Euler apologises for being distracted this evening.
        Mickorod Renard: didnt notice Wol,,is all ok?
        arabella Ella: :)
        Wol Euler: just RL intruding on my SL time :)
        Calvino Rabeni: A crude but evocative idea - whatever CAN happen, WILL happen in complex systems
        Wol Euler: damn thing won't stay in its box.
        Calvino Rabeni: :)
        Mickorod Renard: #rl is a real nuisance
        Calvino Rabeni: Is that Life 1.0?
        Wol Euler: afraid so, my hardward doesn't support the upgrade.
        Mickorod Renard: as guardian I may have to edit Damn Wol
        Wol Euler: oh, are we watching our language now? sorry.
        Wol Euler: didn't know we were in a PG sim
        Mickorod Renard: grin
        Calvino Rabeni: It goes in the chat logs onto the internet for all eternity :)
        Mickorod Renard: yehhh,,better dress appropriately too
        Calvino Rabeni: Well I had a lesson from Wol, thank you much
        Wol Euler: :)
        Wol Euler: my pleasure.
        Mickorod Renard: thats a nice furry top u have Wol
        Wol Euler grins. Thank you, it goes with the thigh-high furry boots :)
        Mickorod Renard: winter is on its way
        Wol Euler stands and twirls
        Mickorod Renard: cool
        Wol Euler: a steal at only L$1080 :)
        Mickorod Renard: still room to get a chil
        Mickorod Renard: chill*
        Wol Euler: I rely on the kindness of strangers to avoid that.
        Mickorod Renard: did you ever find it spooky Calvino?
        Calvino Rabeni: you mean avatars, et al
        Mickorod Renard: seeing the mechanics of the human mind in operation
        Mickorod Renard: spooky avi's,,lots of them
        Calvino Rabeni: Oh, not really, maybe uncanny, unexpected
        Calvino Rabeni: it is a little weird to find the holes
        Mickorod Renard: I guess its still facinating to see the amazing way its constructed,,rather than see it in a more ,,erm,,mystical way
        Calvino Rabeni: I find it useful to try to entertain both those perspectives
        Mickorod Renard: not sure I have been arrticuklate there,,but u may catch the drift
        Calvino Rabeni: I find the correlations interesting
        Wol Euler: Reading Freud did that for me, actually, Mick :)
        Mickorod Renard: yes?
        Wol Euler: seeing how thoroughly we are conditioned by previous experience and memories
        Wol Euler: "oh, so I'm not entirely free after all?"
        Calvino Rabeni: sorry
        Calvino Rabeni: :)
        arabella Ella: which correlations do you find most interesting Calvino?
        Mickorod Renard: yes, I often fear that science will take away the mystery,,and it will loose the magic as if we are children now grown up
        Calvino Rabeni: doesn't seem to have hurt Piet though
        Wol Euler: heheheh
        arabella Ella: :)
        Mickorod Renard: grin
        Wol Euler: indeed, he has retained that gleeful air of discovery
        Calvino Rabeni: I am in favor of entertaining these soft notions - imagination, gratitude, forgiveness
        Calvino Rabeni: etc,
        Wol Euler: definitely.
        Calvino Rabeni: and wonder
        Calvino Rabeni: and play
        Mickorod Renard: well, I must admit, even though I am no longer young,,the more I learn makes me more hungry to know more
        arabella Ella: curiousity too
        Mickorod Renard: I think its self perpetuating
        Calvino Rabeni: Science too
        Mickorod Renard: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: Mick, how?
         Mickorod Renard: well, its a bit like play as being,,like the more that comes to your attention the more it opens up amazement and the desire for another buzz
        Wol Euler: :)
        Calvino Rabeni: a virtuous circle
        Mickorod Renard: yes,,exactly
        Mickorod Renard: would you mind if I go now,,I have some business to sort out?
        Wol Euler: sure, we're over the hour. Goodnight mick, sort well.
        Calvino Rabeni: not at all, good to talk with yuo
        Wol Euler: I should go as well, workday tomorrow.
        Mickorod Renard: thanks,,its my pleasure,,thanks for the interesting evening
        Calvino Rabeni: see you later.

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