2009.11.28 07:00 - A Kind of Wild/Incalculable Potential

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

    For this morning Eos and I had scheduled a theme meeting on "Form, no Form."

    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, I'm sure Eos and Pema will be here in a moment :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :)
    Vendy Walpole: Hi Qt
    Qt Core: hi all
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
    Vendy Walpole: Hello Pema
    Pema Pera: hi Vendy, Qt, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)
    Pema Pera: And Eliza was right!
    Pema Pera: Hi Eos and Wol !
    Qt Core: hi eos, wol
    Wol Euler: hello everyone
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi All!
    Vendy Walpole: Hi Eos
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
    Vendy Walpole: Hi Wol
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi all
    Wol Euler: just to let you all know, the server that holds our logging database is currently offline. This will have to be a manually written session log
    Eos Amaterasu: Ok
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Scath :)
    Wol Euler: hello scath, sophia
    Pema Pera: fine, I can do that, Wol
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello eliza, everyone:)
    Vendy Walpole: Hello
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Sca, Sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Schath, Sharon!
    Pema Pera: (when will the server be on line again, Wol?)
    Qt Core: hi Scath, Sophia
    Wol Euler: fael has asked for a reboot, but there's no way of knowing when their technicians will get to it. A whole flock of virtual servers run by this company is having trouble
    Pema Pera: maybe a good idea to send an email to the PaB group to warn the gocs that they have to keep their own log
    Wol Euler: I'll do that.
    Pema Pera: thanks!
    Pema Pera: Well, Eos, shall we get started?
    Eos introduced the theme for this session.
    Eos Amaterasu: Ok
    Eos Amaterasu: We have been having a number of discussions over the last week on topics of leadership, belief, commitment, etc
    Eos Amaterasu: which involve themes of paying attention to form and to detail
    Eos Amaterasu: while at the same time being completely open
    Eos Amaterasu: This also relates to the idea of guardianship here, which has some (paradoxical) sense of "protecting" openness :-)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: One aspect of this seems to be that of "play"
    Eos Amaterasu: In play we both pay attention to the details, even the "rules" of the game, while recognizing that what we're doing is not totally solid, and in a way not real
    Eos Amaterasu: even though it's no fun to play if you don't play by the rules
    Eos Amaterasu: Another related aspect is how to "be" in the 90 secs....
    Eos Amaterasu: there's details all around us, sounds of water and birds, colors, thoughts, strong emotions
    Eos Amaterasu: and we're letting them just be
    Eos Amaterasu: so attending to form, from a space of openness: not form, which also allows all/any form
    Eos Amaterasu: the buddhists like to talk about "emptiness is not _other_ than form" - no form does not mean something separate from, or in a different realm from, form
    Archmage Atlantis: Okey Dokey
    Eliza Madrigal: (Hi Arch, Fael) We're having a theme session today... Eos and Pema: form/no form :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Then I have something to share
    Eos Amaterasu: this gets concrete when we talk about leadership, or sitting on a pillow talking with others listening
    Archmage Atlantis: Form is just a set of guidelines
    Eos Amaterasu: Pema summarized this as "no leader, no belief system, no defense"
    Alfred Kelberry sneaks in quietly
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: A way to find one's path
    Eos Amaterasu: the plus side of no defense being "being open", not separate from caring
    Archmage Atlantis: It is not a rule
    Eos Amaterasu: Enough from me :-)
    Pema Pera: Thank you very much, Eos!
    Pema Pera: That's a very clear start

      -- BELL --

    Pema Pera: what we are doing here is unique, it seems to me, at least I don't know of any other group, RL or SL, which is so open, so without hierarchy, wthout belief system, without obligations really -- and yet is growing its own open structure in an organic way, with nobody having a clue of what direction it is moving to.
    Sharon was able to summarize it more succinctly!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thinking of a form finding itself
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: The world is being born to a new creation, in my belief
    Pema Pera: Eos, you have had decades of experience working with groups, playing an active role therein; is there some kind of "take home message" you feel you've learned from that?
    Pema Pera: something that we could apply>
    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm... one thing is that it helps to acknowledge the form that is there; otherwise we tend to ignore it and it goes on under the surface
    Eos Amaterasu: so better to celebrate form :-)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: When people play at being served, and play at serving, it turns out it's more difficult to be served - can be very uncomfortable, a challenge to ego
    Eos Amaterasu: playing underdog is easy; playing momma or poppa dog (alpha?) is harder
    Pema Pera: yes, less clearly circumscribed
    Pema Pera: everbody should feel free to join in -- Eos and I have just set the stage
    Pema Pera: oops?
    Pema Pera: exit Eos
    Wol Euler: ping.
    Fael Illyar: pong
    Wol Euler: dropping like flies.
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Fael Illyar: oh, mass offline
    Wol Euler: wb eos
    Wol Euler: wb qt, arch
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Fael Illyar: wb Everyone :)
    Qt Core: ty, that was strange...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the form to me feel less like play, im still trying to capture that sense of play, play to me is formless in that its ok to not follow rules
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yikes people really are dropping like flies
    Wol Euler: I read somehing about SL server reboots today.
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, it brought up Lady Gaga on my pc *grin*
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... I wonder if it's my time soon.
    Vendy Walpole: sorry, sl crashed
    Alfred Kelberry: same here
    SophiaSharon Larnia grabs onto her seat cushion
    Wol Euler: wb everyone, let's carry on as best we can.
    Alfred Kelberry: i've fired up emerald this time :)
    For a while, at least half of us would crash randomly, and there was some pandemonium with avatars coming and going; fortunately, soon afterwards SL would become more stable again.
    Pema Pera: yes, Sharon, there seem to be at least two forms of play: one with specfic rules, like chess, and one more open and loose, like puppies playing -- though I'm sure that puppies also have all kind of implicit rules
    Archmage Atlantis: There are things beyound.....
    Eos Amaterasu: Sophia, seems like a trade-off; it can be fun to bend or even invent new rules - in which case you're playng with form/boundaries/
    SophiaSharon Larnia: playing that there are boundaries
    Eos Amaterasu: but also can lose fun when ignoring the rules (as Perma says, as in chess, tennis)
    Eos Amaterasu: you can play intensely by the rules even though you know "it's just a game"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: in real life this doesnt work of course, so just a dabating point, <grins>
    SophiaSharon Larnia: debating*
    Fael Illyar: yes, in real life the rules differ a lot between people.
    Fael Illyar: But still, there are some rules that tend to hold regardless.
    Pema Pera: perhaps in real life we can go into conflict situations at work, say, in a playful mode, behaving unexpectedly, letting people think twice ( <- Sharon)
    Archmage Atlantis: I have to think "it's just a game" is an excuse for other motives
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a bit unpredictable
    Fael Illyar: yes, when people are angry, doing something they are not expecting can seriously mess up their flow.
    Archmage Atlantis: Like "I only meant that as a joke"

      -- BELL --

    On creating forms.
    Eos Amaterasu: The teacher I worked with, Chogyam Trungpa, loved to create forms - calligraphy, flower arranging, poetry, clothing, social institutions, titles. A story: someone asked him "Are these awards and appointments fact or fiction". Response: "Both"
    Eos Amaterasu: "serious games": that a sub-sector of gaming... :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: I like that Eos, we are both
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Qt Core: playing, especially for children but not only for them is one of the most serious things in life
    Fael Illyar: Eos, yes, very well put :)
    Pema Pera: so here we play at being totally open . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . and as Eos mentioned, we're also guarding that openness
    Alfred Kelberry: qt, i'd say it's adults who make it serious. overly at times :)
    Archmage Atlantis: And we are totally open, and play with it
    Pema Pera: it may not be so easy to discover what total openness is, though
    Qt Core: i often feels so many levels and sublevels i my mind that i ask myself when i'm open if i'm open or i'm just playing at being open
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Alfred. We have pictures in mind that perhaps children don't have yet... of the way we've done things before, or what we idealize, etc
    Pema Pera: we have so very many shells, and when we drop one or two we may feel "open"
    Hana Furlough: hello everyone~
    Pema Pera: hi Hana!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Hana :)
    Vendy Walpole: Hi hana
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Hana
    Fael Illyar: Hi Hana :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Hana
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Hannah
    Pema Pera: (Alfred, feel free to sit in the circle)
    Wol Euler gris
    Eos Amaterasu: Would "protecting space" be a good experiment in how to approach the next 90 secs?
    Wol Euler: *grins
    Vendy Walpole: we should be very careful when to be totaly open
    Alfred Kelberry: pema, it's ok, i like this spot :)
    Eos Amaterasu notes implicit rule or convention about sitting on cushions in the circle :-)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Vendy, blindly trying to be totally open is not a good idea :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Vendy, yes but it is funny... implies we know how to be open, what that would look like or mean....
    Eos Amaterasu: taking a risk while caring?
    Hana Furlough: an excellent point, eliza
    Vendy Walpole: as Qt mentioned, there are many levels of opening, the skill is to choose the right at the right time
    Pema Pera: or to discover the right one
    Pema Pera: to fall into it
    Vendy Walpole: I wonder how much am I open to myself as first
    Alfred Kelberry: "discover" - i like it
    Vendy Walpole: or I believe I am
    It seemed Wol was ready to fall into Being :-)
    Wol Euler: the open manhole cover of Being.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Archmage Atlantis: To be totally open is to accept fate
    Pema Pera: we are very good at closing off
    Pema Pera: that is something we actively do all the time
    Alfred Kelberry: introverts practice it every day, pema :)
    Pema Pera: so there is little we have to "do" to open up more
    Archmage Atlantis: What comes comes
    Pema Pera: just lessening closing off is a great start
    Archmage Atlantis: It is beyond our control
    Vendy Walpole: Yes, we need more bridges, not so many walls (Newton)
    Qt Core: actively and unconcliously even

      -- BELL --

    Alfred Kelberry: can you be truly open to yourself before you open to someone else?
    Vendy Walpole: That is hard question
    Pema Pera: Eos suggested "protecting space" as an experiment; I just did that and noticed how "protecting openness" feels like being aware of a tendency to close down.
    Pema Pera: did anyone else do Eos' experiment?
    Archmage Atlantis: I think what works not is to try and control
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i felt that way also, I wouldn't have said until you did :)
    Qt Core: open to others is easier that with oneself, i thing
    Vendy Walpole: agree Qt
    Qt Core: example, it is easier to speak about diet to a friend than speak about it with yourself, you have to act after that even if to say i don't want to do that and confront yourself
    Archmage Atlantis: Agree QT
    Qt Core: who knows why i chosed such an example ? ;-)
    Eos shared a moving summary of his experiences.
    Eos Amaterasu: I found that it trying to protect was futile, artificial; however, it was more of a commitment to space, and commitment to allowing whatever comes up to come up, neither pushing away nor pulling in; protecting space is also protecting manifestation
    Archmage Atlantis: One cannot know another's mind
    Eos Amaterasu: but also noting your own tendency to indulge, or to hide (my own closed-ness is what is most prominent, noticeable, in PaB): grin and let go
    Alfred Kelberry: qt, but if you start asking why and go deeper, it may not be easy to speak out
    Pema Pera: so an element of non-judging, Eos?
    Eos Amaterasu: especially not judging yourself : which means not fleeing yourself, first
    Eos Amaterasu: and then accepting yourself
    Eliza Madrigal considered 'gaps' during the pause, and that they are scary sometimes... so like one is protecting a kind of wild/incalculable potential.. quite a responsibility... similar lines perhaps Eos...
    And so the title of this session arose.
    Eos Amaterasu: and then willing to let go yourself :-)
    Qt Core: yes, alfred, i'm amazed by what i say when i let it out fasster enough to evade my mind firewalls
    Pema Pera nods to Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal smiles at Qt
    Eos Amaterasu likes "a kind of wild/incalculable potential."
    Pema Pera: perhaps protecting that potential is related to expressing it with precision
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Pema Pera: how it wants to be expressed
    Pema Pera: and there devotion and engagement and honesty come in
    Vendy Walpole: Btw Pema, i have read the log of last phenomenology workshop, you gave us last time
    Vendy Walpole: I like the example of the sticked pages - the way we are used to think
    Hana Furlough: i need to get going soon. lovely chatting with everyone. have a great day~
    Vendy Walpole: and like the step no 1 - detecting the object and stop
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Hana :)
    Wol Euler: bye hana, take care
    Eos Amaterasu waves
    Vendy Walpole: curious about further steps
    Pema Pera: bye Hana!
    Vendy Walpole: Bye Hana
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Hana
    Pema Pera: yes, it is nice to go slowly in that workshop, Vendy
    Vendy Walpole: It was very clearly explained :)

      -- BELL --

    Since Vendy had mentioned a phenomenology workshop, I provided the URL.
    Pema Pera: (vendy was refering to http://sites.google.com/site/phenomenologyvip/meetings/2009-11-20)
    Eliza Madrigal goes very slowly in that workshop, but yes the pages example is excellent...have turned that over quite a bit
    Vendy Walpole: I have recognized the way i use to think through example of wet, sticked pages
    Eos Amaterasu: Pema Pera: if you try to read a book that is a bit wet, you turn pages, but often they are stuck together
    Pema Pera: and we are trying to get the pages to separate)
    Pema Pera: normally we turn the page "there is a cup" and the page "and the cup really feels real" together
    ema Pera: the epoche invites you to turn each page separately
    Pema Pera: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: have a great day or evening everyone :) bye for now
    Pema Pera: bye Sharon!
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sharon :)
    Vendy Walpole: You to Sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: waves
    Wol Euler: bye sharon
    Vendy Walpole: too*
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Sophia
    Scathach Rhiadra: good bye all:)
    Eos Amaterasu: "From: http://www.musicbabylon.com

        One begins to read between
        The pages of a look.
         (Jefferson Airplane)

    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Scath :)
    Pema Pera: bye Schath!
    Vendy Walpole: Bye Scathach
    Wol Euler: bye scath, take care
    Fael Illyar: bye Scath :)
    Eos Amaterasu: bye ~
    Cup Of Green Tea whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, I should get going also. Thanks Pema, Eos, and Everyone :)
    Pema Pera: Husserl in his own way was a contemplative, even as a German scholar, and found a remarkable openness in the middle of his philosophical investigations (he was the one who introduced the epoche, that Eos quoted)
    Pema Pera: bye Eliza!
    Wol Euler: bye eliza
    Vendy Walpole: Bye Eliza
    Fael Illyar: Bye Eliza :)
    Pema Pera: openness can appear in very unexpected places
    Eos Amaterasu: ~ Eliza
    Alfred Kelberry: i like her jeans :)
    Vendy Walpole: what exactly -epoche- means?
    Epoche is a philosophical term, reintroduced a hundred years ago by the philosopher Husserl
    Pema Pera: suspension of judgment
    Vendy Walpole: ty
    Pema Pera: watching without immediately drawing a conclusion -- it is this or that
    Pema Pera: stopping at the moment something appears
    Pema Pera: not overshooting beyond that moment
    Pema Pera: (appreciating the presence of appearance :)
    Vendy Walpole: yes
    Pema Pera: stopping at the very moment that something appears is a way to protect openness, to come back to Eos' starting point today!
    Alfred Kelberry: can you say "discovering" the appearance?
    Pema Pera: not closing down by adding a stamp or label and explanation
    Pema Pera: hmmm, Alfred, discovering is perhaps a different move
    Pema Pera: appearance is the least "covered" -- always there
    Eos Amaterasu: which is a commitment both to "openness" and to the thing itself that is being experienced (the thing apart from its overlapping with our other stuff)
    Pema Pera: then we cover it, hide it
    Pema Pera: yes, Eos!!
    Wol Euler nods thoughtfully
    Pema Pera: and then we the thing can appear in "form as no other than no-form"
    Pema Pera: "form as no other than emptiness"
    Qt Core: trying to stopping the mind automatic labelling machine... i think it would be hard for me, i accept easily to change labels (if there is a reason) but no label...
    Eos Amaterasu: I think it's not so much trying to attain "no label" as just noticing labelling as it comes up, over and over
    Vendy Walpole: That is just a habbit Qt, we can get rid of it
    Pema Pera: to get a taste is not so difficult, Qt, but to integrate it into our life, as a real habit, seems to take a lot of time
    Eos Amaterasu: you get friendly with that process, with yourself as well, so it gets less tight, and loosens up
    Pema Pera: :)
    Vendy Walpole: /labeling
    Qt Core: i recognize it as i watch it ... to verify the label is the "right" one
    Vendy Walpole: be open and do not put any label
    Another little experiment.
    Pema Pera: shall we spend the next 90 seconds break watching how we try to "clothe" naked appearance of anything with the dresses of what we take it to be?
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)

      -- BELL --

    Fael Illyar: the clothes are a part of the experience but not all of it...
    Pema Pera: I had to laugh, doing this experiment: I felt a momentary sense of impatience, and in a split second saw the train leave the station: impatience leading to judgement of how to do this and that, further judgments about this and about that, and so on, many railroad cars . . . .
    Qt Core: some of those labels are, more then labels, warning sign from past experience
    Pema Pera: it all happens very fast, this covering up
    Fael Illyar: perhaps more relevant labels, not more as such.
    Qt Core: that's why it is hard to block it
    Pema Pera: blocking is not the point; seeing is, as Eos mentioned
    Pema Pera: allowing
    Pema Pera: but not ignoring
    Qt Core: same problem, like trying to catch a fish bare hand
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Pema Pera: you can watch a fish with a naked eye :)
    Eos Amaterasu: red light -> foot on brake -> intend to stop. Experience includes chains of appropriate action : they are "by convention", so in a sense no-intrinsic-form, but can still be appropriate: no problem
    Pema Pera: yes, what is natural/appropriate can very well follow the same lines as common sense; in most cases does!
    Pema Pera: Hi Shyama!
    Shyama Sheryffe: hello
    Wol Euler: hello shyama
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Shyama
    Vendy Walpole: Hello

       From the samsaric ocean,
       With the net of your good posture,
       The fish of your subconscious gossip
       Are exposed to the fresh air.
       No praise, no blame.
       The fish of your subconscious mind
       Look for samsaric air,
       But they die in coemergent wisdom.

       From "Fishing Wisely," in TIMELY RAIN: SELECTED

    Vendy Walpole: thank you Eos, this is so beautiful
    Qt Core: !
    Vendy Walpole: Have relaxing weekend all of you
    Wol Euler: bye vendy, take care
    Pema Pera: bye Vendy!
    Vendy Walpole: Bye
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye VEndy!
    Qt Core: bye Vendy
    Shyama Sheryffe: bye
    Pema Pera: Time for me to take off too
    Pema Pera: Thanks a lot, Eos! And everybody!
    Wol Euler: bye pema, enjoy the weekend, thank you.
    Eos Amaterasu: Ditto - thank you very much, everyone!
    Qt Core: bye
    Shyama Sheryffe: goodbye everyone

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