2009.11.30 19:00 - Precognitive experience

    Table of contents
    No headers

    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database.


    Fox Monacular: hi Doug

    Fox Monacular: hi calvino

    Fox Monacular: welcome to the guardians

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Fox. TY

    Fox Monacular: how are you doing tonight?

    doug Sosa: i haven't asked that of myself and will let it float by. i think fine but lots going on.

    Calvino Rabeni: My head is spinning - no doubt the timeout will help

    doug Sosa: I've been learning to try the 9 sec just at the worst moments. really helps.

    Fox Monacular: oh, I hope everything is going to work out... sounds intense for both of you

    Calvino Rabeni: :) It would be fun to have an animation to indicate that subjectivity

    Fox Monacular: this november is tough on me too...

    Calvino Rabeni: Self inflicted :)

    Fox Monacular: :)

    doug Sosa: i wonder, for all those who say its all in our mind, is life self-inflicted?

    Fox Monacular: :), no life is inflicted by our parets!

    Fox Monacular: *parents

    doug Sosa: parrots. :)

    Fox Monacular: :)

    doug Sosa: our parents really are mostly fictive, no?

    Calvino Rabeni: Mine certainly were :)

    Fox Monacular: perhaps, but they seem very real to me!

    Calvino Rabeni: I'm happy to hold the distinction lightly - fictive-ness


    doug Sosa: mind stuff is real - but often has an actual referent that may be quite different.

    Calvino Rabeni: SL has become a more durable illusion.

    Calvino Rabeni: But sometimes I think, it is fine to say, we just don't know what the referent actually is.

    Calvino Rabeni: Especially if we want to interact with "real" that doesn't have solid form.

    Fox Monacular: I find SL sometimes very disorienting... I mean even in RL things are mostly fictive...

    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed.

    Calvino Rabeni: But that takes a certain position I 'm not entirely comfortable with

    doug Sosa: yes, the referent is only engageable through co-participation, which means our mental stuff is always mixed in. nothing to do about it, except putting different experiences tog ether.

    Calvino Rabeni: that seems reasonable to me

    Calvino Rabeni: OK, in a recent session, someone seemed to think that "judgments" are something only valid to the person having them.

    Calvino Rabeni: Like - it's true for me, but we can't say any more than that.

    Fox Monacular: judgements depend on a shared understanding too

    Fox Monacular: right

    Fox Monacular: but I'm not sure if this is true

    Calvino Rabeni: It seems like that to me

    Calvino Rabeni: I think reasonable to assume "partly shared". That's the crux

    Calvino Rabeni: Philosophy likes to take things to extremes

    doug Sosa: other people are referents, and we know thm, sort of, again mixed up with our own stuff. But there is reality to it, like the kicked stone or the boilded away water in the rice.

    Fox Monacular: rigth, but I believe there is a degree of understanding of 'unreal

    Calvino Rabeni: which seems not really warranted

    Fox Monacular: and elusice matters

    doug Sosa: navigating without adequate navigation, that is what life is about.

    Fox Monacular: yes, this is my problem with a lot of philosophy too...

    Calvino Rabeni: they try to to logic on all these ideas of dubious grounding

    Calvino Rabeni: and exclude the middle

    Fox Monacular: well, various traditions serve as navigation manuals

    doug Sosa: the grounding isn't so dubious. inclonclusive but not dubious.

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I follow them, but mainly only as a kind of dialectic in relation to the others

    doug Sosa: The 9 sec tries to get closer.

    Fox Monacular: a shared practice can help build common vocabularies

    Calvino Rabeni: is meaning "constructed" ?

    Calvino Rabeni: That is an example of an idea taken to extremes

    Fox Monacular: some people think so:)

    Fox Monacular: Hi Steve!

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello

    doug Sosa: partly, but also interactive with somehting that has an effect on the "construction".

    Fox Monacular: I think meaning is experienced

    doug Sosa: 'hi steve.

    stevenaia Michinaga: been a while, doug

    Fox Monacular: have you read Eugene Gendlin?

    doug Sosa: every time i come back i har that. gotta admit to it.

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, he has progressed since the 70's

    Calvino Rabeni: I like Gendlin

    Fox Monacular: yes, me too

    doug Sosa: who?

    Fox Monacular: he has a book "experiencing and the creation of meaning"

    Calvino Rabeni: But I kind of "sense" his limits. :)

    Fox Monacular: http://books.google.ca/books?id=D09o...age&q=&f=false

    Calvino Rabeni: I will find a link for you - just the right one.

    Fox Monacular: here's a google book link, you can peek in

    Calvino Rabeni: His web site is fabulous

    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Gendlin

    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.focusing.org/tbp.html

    doug Sosa: thanks!

    Calvino Rabeni: THen browse up from there, but that is the crux I think for what we are talking about

    Fox Monacular: I like him a lot, it resonates well with the work on embodied cognition

    Calvino Rabeni: It does.


    Calvino Rabeni: They have a new initiative called "focusing partners"

    Fox Monacular: and intuitively I feel it's right to say that meaning is felt' or experiuenced before it can be articulated

    Fox Monacular: oups, sorry

    doug Sosa: thinking and the body are as intertwined as perception and object.

    Fox Monacular: right, he focuces on the process more than the content

    Calvino Rabeni: It kind of overlaps with PAB in some ways

    Fox Monacular: Hi Bene!

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Bene

    Benedizione Vita: hello all

    doug Sosa: :)

    Benedizione Vita: whats shakin?

    Benedizione Vita: I feel better already :)

    Calvino Rabeni: we were talking about - hmm, what would you call it?

    Fox Monacular: creation of meaning by experiencing it

    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps embodied cognition or intelligence

    stevenaia Michinaga: Eugene_Gendlin

    Benedizione Vita: oh yes, that is one of my favorite toics

    Fox Monacular: pre-cognitive basis of the experience of meaning

    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.focusing.org/tbp.html

    Calvino Rabeni: (repeated for Bene)

    Fox Monacular: as opposed to purely cerebral construction from mental representations

    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, but it is a kind of arbitrary distinctin

    doug Sosa: what i like about the 9 sec is that we are asked to be observers and report. that gets us beyond mouthing concepts.

    Benedizione Vita: except maybe as an infant would

    doug Sosa: like, what happens when in a crisis we try the 9 sec? For me there is an immediate greater awareness of space, and the most intense objects step back a bit.

    Calvino Rabeni: Space is a very big deal, metaphorically, in understanding these experiences

    Fox Monacular: yes, but to report, we have to use some meta-language that others will understand!:)

    Calvino Rabeni: What do you make of that?

    doug Sosa: i am in an intense converation wiht two othrs. try the 9 sec. sunnenly it is not me and two of them, it is three of us.

    Calvino Rabeni: Nice

    doug Sosa: Note, no meta language.

    Fox Monacular: this is great

    doug Sosa: Tomorrow i have to speak to 45 department and institute directors. can i try the 9 sec?

    doug Sosa: I hope i remember.

    Fox Monacular: ouch

    Calvino Rabeni: as in, show it to them?

    Benedizione Vita: "do or do not" ;^)

    Benedizione Vita: to quote the sage

    doug Sosa: not show, do, for myself. showing thjem comes later.

    Calvino Rabeni: there is no try

    Fox Monacular: you mean 9 sec before you talk to them? or during:)

    Calvino Rabeni: you have doubts?

    doug Sosa: "there is no try" Is that not ideology? i think i experience trying all the time.

    Benedizione Vita: it's way beyond ideology

    Calvino Rabeni: No, that was in reference to a Yoda quite

    Benedizione Vita: it's Star Wars

    Calvino Rabeni: quite

    stevenaia Michinaga: lol

    Calvino Rabeni: quote

    doug Sosa: my ignorance.

    Calvino Rabeni: (promises to learn to type)

    doug Sosa: i'll try the 9 sec when it gets intense. not needed at the beginning.. well, maybe then too :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Can you do it while doing other things?

    Calvino Rabeni: :) They will never notice :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: if you do it before, perhaps theings won;t get :"intense"

    doug Sosa: that is when we really learn from the 9. Don't stop doing what you are doing, just add in the 9 sec and seewhat happens to get experienced.

    Fox Monacular: I guess, while they're talking, you can do it, but during your own speech it can get tricky!

    doug Sosa: I want the intensity, just not to be dominated by it.

    doug Sosa: So hey, during my own speech, yes. i'll try.

    Calvino Rabeni: Actually it might be better to do it while you are speaking, rather than while they are.

    Fox Monacular: :) drop what you say to say who you are :)

    doug Sosa: friends, at the bell I've gotta go (rehearse..:) actually just look at some notes.

    Calvino Rabeni: Because while they are speaking, they are more distracted.

    Calvino Rabeni: Best of luck!

    Calvino Rabeni: And skill

    Fox Monacular: I hope it goes well tomorrow!

    Benedizione Vita: good luck doug

    Benedizione Vita: good to see you as always

    Benedizione Vita: may the force be with you

    Fox Monacular: have a good solid night of sleep :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like an intersting crowd

    stevenaia Michinaga: will it be webcasted :)


    doug Sosa: no web cast. too nformal, a conversation. my friend's guest just stepped in, an attractive chinese, studying computatinal physics.

    doug Sosa: ok, here I go. bye. thanks.

    stevenaia Michinaga: bye

    Benedizione Vita: can you make an introduction for me first, doug?

    Benedizione Vita: bye

    stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm , people are dropping out all over here

    Benedizione Vita: yes, there they go

    Calvino Rabeni: Fox said nothing , maybe a crash?

    Benedizione Vita: or slipped away sly like a fox

    Calvino Rabeni: WB fox

    Fox Monacular: sorry about that, I've no idea what happened

    stevenaia Michinaga: how did you become familiar with Eugene Gendlin

    stevenaia Michinaga: CAl

    Fox Monacular: a mentor recommended it to me

    Calvino Rabeni: I did a lot of stuff in the seventies - human potential movement in the USA

    stevenaia Michinaga: looks interesting

    Calvino Rabeni: BUt it meshed with my interests

    Fox Monacular: what is this movement? i am not familiar with it

    Calvino Rabeni: there was a broad interest toward various forms of psychology and self-study based on an "experiential" paradigm.

    Calvino Rabeni: It happened after the drug experimentation of the sixties

    Calvino Rabeni: mostly in USA, but also in other places.

    Calvino Rabeni: It influenced attitudes - after that it diverged in various ways.

    Fox Monacular: interesting

    Calvino Rabeni: It is a little like understanding the history of ideas

    Calvino Rabeni: similar to comparative religion - I mean, as a form of cultural studies

    Fox Monacular: there's less sruff like that around now I think... my school years are all about neuroscience and evolutionary psych :(

    Calvino Rabeni: that brackets the topics

    Fox Monacular: right

    Calvino Rabeni: It was parallel / overlapped with the assimilation of eastern religious ideas - buddhism, etc - in the "west"

    Fox Monacular: psychology is becoming more and more biological, but interdisciplinary stuff is getting more interesting I find

    Fox Monacular: that must have been really exciting!

    Calvino Rabeni: They assimilated it in a way that translated it into western metaphysics

    Calvino Rabeni: You can see its influence, of course, in people like Pema and Stim.

    Calvino Rabeni: And many of the members of this group

    Calvino Rabeni: It is what made the idea of western buddnism, for example, acceptable.

    Calvino Rabeni: I remember the changes of that time.

    Calvino Rabeni: Philosophically there was a move towards tolerating much more diversity

    Calvino Rabeni: of worldview, I mean, not of class / race/ social values.

    Calvino Rabeni: So now you can be a buddhist AND a scientist :)

    Fox Monacular: yes:) it works out

    Fox Monacular: although since dawkins many people doubt it again!


    Benedizione Vita: onigokko

    Fox Monacular: onigokko

    Fox Monacular: stop

    Fox Monacular: onigokko

    Benedizione Vita: why didn't I stop?

    Fox Monacular: because you didn't really want to

    Fox Monacular: :)

    Fox Monacular: i lost my skirt

    Benedizione Vita: it happens every time...

    Calvino Rabeni: "When in danger, or in doubt - run in circles, scream,and shout!"

    Fox Monacular: lol!

    Benedizione Vita: stop

    Fox Monacular: hehe

    Benedizione Vita: I think I am broken

    Fox Monacular: stop

    Calvino Rabeni: You can stop yourself using the menu

    stevenaia Michinaga: menu WORLD: STOP ALL ANIMATIONS

    Calvino Rabeni: "stop animating avitar"

    stevenaia Michinaga: sure, now you look all cool drinking tea

    Benedizione Vita: now it looks like I am crouched to pounce

    Benedizione Vita: okay, now we are okay

    Fox Monacular: Calvino, you know, we're talking about accepting more diversity, and I think it's true, but it seems that at the same time science is becoming more dogmatic than ever

    Fox Monacular: at least in my school

    Calvino Rabeni: What school?

    Fox Monacular: university of montreal

    Calvino Rabeni: Right

    Fox Monacular: and before that in mcgill

    stevenaia Michinaga: seems like a protection mechanism

    Calvino Rabeni: YEs

    Fox Monacular: even more so in mcgill

    Calvino Rabeni: and it may be warranted

    stevenaia Michinaga: aww, my wife went to McGill

    Fox Monacular: :)

    Benedizione Vita: oh, you are at mcgill, fox?

    Fox Monacular: i did a BA there

    Calvino Rabeni: but I still see it as a compensation to other factors

    Benedizione Vita: did we meet in RL?

    Fox Monacular: hated all my psych courses, but loved art history and religion

    Fox Monacular: did we, Bene? :)

    Fox Monacular: what do you mean, Cal?

    Calvino Rabeni: What was psych like then?

    Calvino Rabeni: They are reacting to new age and fundamentalism perhaps

    Fox Monacular: dogmatic, pharmacological...

    Fox Monacular: freud was only mentioned to laugh at

    Benedizione Vita: if we did, it would have been in princeton

    Fox Monacular: i had 2 lectures on freud in psych

    Calvino Rabeni: I see. Perhaps they are getting carried away a bit

    Benedizione Vita: but have you seen this video? it's in montreal--I think it might be mcgill 

    Benedizione Vita: oops

    Fox Monacular: and 3 classes in art history

    Benedizione Vita: wow

    Calvino Rabeni: with the influence of genomics, etc.

    Benedizione Vita: this is better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zcOFN_VBVo

    Calvino Rabeni: But some aspects seem good - neural correlates of consciousness.

    Calvino Rabeni: Although I don't know if that is orthodox now.

    Fox Monacular: yes, defintely, but it's becoming 'the only' way they teach psych

    Fox Monacular: :) Bene, I saw it

    Calvino Rabeni: Do you have a feel for where the "interdisciplinary" studies are, these days?

    Fox Monacular: people in mcgill when they graduate they know that mental ilness us cured pharmacologically, and that humanitistic psych, or psychoanalysis is all BS

    Fox Monacular: well, that's where I'm going for a phd:)

    Fox Monacular: it's called 'special individual program'

    Calvino Rabeni: Interested.

    Fox Monacular: and you have to have 3 supervisors in different departments

    Fox Monacular: then you explain what you're going to do, and why it doesn't fit within one discipline

    Fox Monacular: and if they accept you - you can basically do whatever you want

    Calvino Rabeni: I went to a school that supported a similar program. It was undergraduate however.

    Fox Monacular: so I have 2 supervisors out of 3 figured out, shopping for 1 more

    Fox Monacular: like a multi-track? we had that in mcgill too

    Calvino Rabeni: So can you summarize youre 3 challenges ? :)

    Fox Monacular: so I'm not quite sure what's going on on the interdisciplinary front, and I get the feeling that they are not sure either... I mean professors in the program:)

    Fox Monacular: well, it is going to be on dreaming

    Calvino Rabeni: You have 3 different sales jobes

    Fox Monacular: I'll keep working with the same supervisor + 2 more

    Fox Monacular: one of them is a magician:)

    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps Maxine will know of someone

    Calvino Rabeni: You have some new angles to add...


    Fox Monacular: yes, I'd like to work on embodied cognition, something along the lines of Varela, neuroscience, Merleau Ponty

    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Merleau-Ponty

    stevenaia Michinaga: seems everything has a wiki page

    Fox Monacular: hehe:)

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: well I must go

    Calvino Rabeni: important work

    Fox Monacular: I have more than a year to figure out my topic, so I'm still contemplating

    stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon

    Calvino Rabeni: good evening stevenaia

    Fox Monacular: i have to go too

    Fox Monacular: baby's still awake!

    Calvino Rabeni: Hopefuly we can support / bias that process :)

    Benedizione Vita: bye fox

    Fox Monacular: one of my future supervisors actually is the man who introduced me to Varela, Gendlin and other awesome thinkers

    Calvino Rabeni: Name?

    Fox Monacular: so I;m lucky he accepted to work with me

    Fox Monacular: Xin Wei Sha

    Calvino Rabeni: happy for you

    Fox Monacular: http://www.topologicalmedialab.net/j.../2/18/lang,en/

    Calvino Rabeni: and good to meet you because I have been interested in that for a very long time

    Fox Monacular: great! we should talk about it more another time

    Calvino Rabeni: thanks for the links

    Fox Monacular: my pleasure:)

    Calvino Rabeni: yes, any time - in or out of PAB context

    Fox Monacular: definitely

    Calvino Rabeni: delighted

    Fox Monacular: :)

    Fox Monacular: ok, now I hear mama mama mama from the other room, I don't know for how much longer my husband can defend himselg

    Fox Monacular: thank you for the wonderful conversation

    Fox Monacular: good night Bene, Cal

    Calvino Rabeni: quite welcome, good night.

    Benedizione Vita: goodnight foxy, cal

    Tag page (Edit tags)
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core