2009.12.02 01:00 - Being sentient

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

        Bolonath Crystal: namaste calvino and arch :)
        Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
        Archmage Atlantis: Blessings, Bolo, Cal
        Bolonath Crystal: how are you? any new spiritual insights recently?
        Calvino Rabeni: hmm
        Archmage Atlantis: Not for me, not even inspired by spirits *smile*
        Calvino Rabeni: I don't think of it as spiritual, but I've been thinking about objects as sentient
        Archmage Atlantis: Oh, I like that topic, Cal :)
        Bolonath Crystal: i think, this is spiritual :)
        Archmage Atlantis: How would you define sentient?
        Calvino Rabeni: Can't tell! I just want to make room for the possibility. Like "chair - talk to me baby!"
        Calvino Rabeni: It is part of a project I have with dreams
        Archmage Atlantis: Just starting from potential examples, would you consider a dog sentient? If so then a cockroach?
        Bolonath Crystal: lol, the day my chair starts talking i'll buy another one *ggg*
        Archmage Atlantis: Or a rock?, Or a planet?
        Calvino Rabeni: I'm working on including plants and objects not considered alive.
        Calvino Rabeni: It is just not fair for all the sentience to be on this side of the subject/object divide.
        Calvino Rabeni: I don't want to do all the work :)
        Archmage Atlantis: Fair, to me, is a judgement......why is it not fair, and what is fair?
        Bolonath Crystal: plants react to the environment. so i consider them to be sentient
        Calvino Rabeni: It is a judgment. It is my judgment.
        Archmage Atlantis: I am interested in your parameters for sentience and for fairness, Cal. - I am not disagreeing, btw, just curious.
        Calvino Rabeni: Fair is every sentient being getting its chance to fully be.
        Calvino Rabeni: I have a somewhat related question - qhen is the last time you remember, when nature - that is, physical matter - behaved in a way that surprised you?
        Bolonath Crystal: oh, this was yesterday
        Archmage Atlantis: Certainly with animals and plants, all the time, as recently as yesterday, as I just woke up.
        Archmage Atlantis: With the planet, whenever a physical thing, like a hurricane, earthquake or volano, happens.
        Calvino Rabeni: Those can be awe-inspiring
        Archmage Atlantis: With things like rocks, or my garden trellis, not that I can remember on their own without some kind of outside physical force acting upon them.
        Calvino Rabeni: I'm paying attention, because, perhaps acting surprising is the beginning a a long trek towards greater sentience for all that "dead matter"
        Calvino Rabeni: Even small cases.
        Archmage Atlantis: Well, I do thing all things have some sort of "spirit" even a rock (that is an opinion or judgement of my own)
        Archmage Atlantis: *think
        Calvino Rabeni: For instance, I had a crystal glass - I struck it t make a tone. THen put my ear near it. I was surprised that it made no sound at all in a plane parallel to the opening.
        Archmage Atlantis: But that, for me, would be different from sentience.
        Bolonath Crystal: do you think it is a sign of sentience, if things (re)act surprisingly?
        Calvino Rabeni: My working hypothesis - just for myself - is that it will be good to forget about playing the "who's sentient" definition pattern for a while.
        Calvino Rabeni: Just for myself, mind you.


    buddhistic interlude

        Bolonath Crystal: namaste maitreya
        maitreya Core: hello
        Archmage Atlantis: Hi Maitreya
        maitreya Core: hello
        Calvino Rabeni: Maitreya was here earlier recently
        maitreya Core: yes
        maitreya Core: im in search of 50 lindens
        maitreya Core: to buy buddhist robes
        maitreya Core: you are most kind
        maitreya Core: i hope oneday i will be able to repay your kindness
        maitreya Core: bless you
        Bolonath Crystal: we are just talking about sentience, maitreya. do you like to share with us your definition of it?
        maitreya Core: have you practiced p,hower ?
        maitreya Core: transferal of consciousness
        Bolonath Crystal: i heard about it, but never practiced it by myself
        Archmage Atlantis: Not I, no
        maitreya Core: i hope that maybe you can get time to learn about it
        Bolonath Crystal: consciousness and sentience seem very close related, i think
        maitreya Core: yes
        Bolonath Crystal: what is the difference actually? is consciousness more a matter of thinking?
        maitreya Core: i will go get my new robes now if you dont mind
        Archmage Atlantis: Bye, Maitreya
        Bolonath Crystal: bye, maitreya. and please feel free to join us any time to tell us more about phowa
        maitreya Core: bye for now


    ... and again: dreams and waking state

    dream experiences seem to be a real spiritual evergreen... ;)

        Calvino Rabeni: bolo, does it seem to you that, one way to distinguish dreams from waking state is that the apparent entities in the dreams do not seem as sentient as those we meet in the waking state?
        Calvino Rabeni: IOW, thus it seems to me
        Calvino Rabeni: OTOH, the objects seen in dreams seem MORE sentient than those seen in waking state
        Bolonath Crystal: i cannot distinguish a dream from the waking state, as long as i am dreaming
        Calvino Rabeni: I've heard people say that, of course, but somehow it is hard to believe
        Bolonath Crystal: both are just illusions to me
        Calvino Rabeni: That seems definitional
        Calvino Rabeni: But you can distinguish which state you are in
        Bolonath Crystal: hm... *thinking*
        Bolonath Crystal: how can i be sure about it?
        Bolonath Crystal: maybe at the moment i dream that i'm awake
        Archmage Atlantis: There are times when I do not know if I dreamed something, or it actually happened in RL......sometimes I have to verify which with others who were there in the dream
        Bolonath Crystal: aren't dreams part of real life, too?
        Archmage Atlantis: And sometimes, with certain people, we have dreams that coordinate, even though they are miles away
        Archmage Atlantis: 10 years ago I would have laughed at that
        Bolonath Crystal: i heard that from other ppl, too, arch, but i never succeded in that by myself
        Bolonath Crystal: i'm a bad dreamer :)
        Bolonath Crystal: i even knew ppl using their dream-abilities like a telephone
        Calvino Rabeni: AA, what happened during those 10years?
        Archmage Atlantis: Well, I am not at all convinced there isn't a scientific explanation
        Bolonath Crystal agrees
        Archmage Atlantis: I became more open to the idea that there are things we just don't understand
        Calvino Rabeni: yet, perhaps.
        Calvino Rabeni: One of the assumptions of science
        Calvino Rabeni: So you made an opening with that idea, and then things came into the opening?
        Archmage Atlantis: Agree, Cal......so I needed a file folder if you will to put those things in.....
        Calvino Rabeni: :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Hoping the folder didn't go back into the drawer.
        Archmage Atlantis: No, I carry it with me all the time now......it gives me comfort
        Calvino Rabeni: I have something like that
        Calvino Rabeni: But I am a total materialist.
        Calvino Rabeni: Although some call that a metaphysics, a faith.
        Archmage Atlantis: I avoided the word "faith" on purpose, but if forced to choose amoung words, it is the best I can come up with *grin*
        Calvino Rabeni: Under duress :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Practically, one might avoid a variety of words like "faith", in speaking to others
        Calvino Rabeni: But they have their own intrinsic merits.

        Calvino Rabeni: The book "Through the Looking Glass" had a playful take on linguistics.
        Bolonath Crystal: as i have read, there is no physics without metaphysics
        Calvino Rabeni: Unless you're a monist.
        Calvino Rabeni: So the character Alice played the part of a character with normal attitudes.
        Archmage Atlantis: My 2 favorite stories in the book know as the Christian bible are the books of Job and Ecclesiastes
        Calvino Rabeni: Kind of "everyman"
        Calvino Rabeni: Ecclesiastes is one I like.
        Calvino Rabeni: I think of it fairly often.
        Calvino Rabeni: Those words (faith, etc.) might need a little bit of rehabilitation or refurbishing
        Calvino Rabeni: but they still have some legs.
        Calvino Rabeni: Are there others that come to mind?
        Archmage Atlantis: I love "through the looking glass" also
        Calvino Rabeni: The queen says "when I use a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean, no more and no less".
        Archmage Atlantis: Exactly, and and I need to go....Have a wonderful day Calvino, Bolonath
        Calvino Rabeni: Take care, Arch
        Bolonath Crystal: bye arch, thanks for joining in :)
        Calvino Rabeni: I like the disappearing act (clouds, etc.)


    some smalltalk to learn about each other

        Bolonath Crystal: somehow i'm not in the mood to go back to work... but it doesn't help much *g*
        Calvino Rabeni: here, it's the wee hours of the morning.
        Calvino Rabeni: Are you at a workplace?
        Bolonath Crystal: no, i'm at home
        Bolonath Crystal: but i have to prepare some teachings for tomorrow
        Calvino Rabeni: I forgot your work, is it teaching?
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, i'm teaching medicine in a school for alternative healing
        Calvino Rabeni: It is a bit strange not having a physical reality connection with one's conversational parners.
        Calvino Rabeni: Partners
        Calvino Rabeni: You teach alternative medicine, that is intersting. What type?
        Bolonath Crystal: oh, we have :) everything is connected
        Calvino Rabeni: Kind of indirectly
        Bolonath Crystal: here in germany alternative healers must pass an examination in anatomy, physiology and pathology. i'm preparing my students for this exam
        Bolonath Crystal: so it is 'normal' standard medicine i'm teaching
        Bolonath Crystal: but when i'm healing, i use chinese medicine
        Calvino Rabeni: I see - herbs, acupuncture?
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, exactly
        Calvino Rabeni: Pulse diagnosis too?
        Bolonath Crystal: sure
        Calvino Rabeni: Is there any Taoist theory associated with learning that?
        Calvino Rabeni: I know, vague.
        Bolonath Crystal: there is a theory of the five elements, called wu xing
        Bolonath Crystal: very similar to ayurvedic five elements
        Calvino Rabeni: I've heard of that theory.
        Calvino Rabeni: But I'm curious how it gets translated into feeling.
        Calvino Rabeni: There is a quality assessment to be made?
        Bolonath Crystal: you mean before practising?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, to get from talk, to actually feeling someone's pulse and diagnosing the quality of it
        Calvino Rabeni: A fair sensitivity is required?
        Bolonath Crystal: there is a two and a half year education. the sensitivity required comes with the practice. a matter of training
        Calvino Rabeni: When students are instructed in how to do that, what is the method to teach them.
        Bolonath Crystal: it is rather difficult with puls diagnosis. the only way to learn it is to feel a few hundred pulses
        Calvino Rabeni: Of course, and while feeling, how does the student know what to feel for?
        Bolonath Crystal: in the beginning you need someone to tell you
        Calvino Rabeni: I've had this talk with others also - thanks for your patience :)
        Bolonath Crystal: yw
        Calvino Rabeni: So they would feel the pulse, and say, here, feel this, this is a yang liver (or whatever tone). It is kind of hard and a bit fluttery
        Calvino Rabeni: Just making that up of course, but suggesting a vocabulary of qualitative terms
        Calvino Rabeni: that can be verified empirically
        Bolonath Crystal: yes. the students need a teacher to tell them, if for example someone has a stagnant liver qi. then they can feel the pulses and experience how a stagnant liver qi feels like.
        Calvino Rabeni: Have you done Tai Chi also?
        Bolonath Crystal: a little bit
        Calvino Rabeni: With partner?
        Bolonath Crystal: no. i had just some training hours with a teacher, but it didn't fit with me very well
        Bolonath Crystal: i prefer hatha yoga
        Calvino Rabeni: The thing about partner practice - like training for martial applications - is that you "feel inside" your partner, and cultivate sensitivity to energy that is not in one's own body
        Calvino Rabeni: "energy" in the chi sense, not the western radiation stuff.
        Bolonath Crystal: yes. it is the same with yoga partner exercises
        Calvino Rabeni: that is interesting - I don't know about those
        Bolonath Crystal: it is like dropping the "i" to act as a "we"
        Calvino Rabeni: the partner practices are a good place to do that
        Bolonath Crystal nods
        Calvino Rabeni: as a start - then can spill over to non-contact relatioships.
        Calvino Rabeni: But it makes things concrete and palpable for learning
        Bolonath Crystal: by and by one develops a sense for the "energy body"
        Calvino Rabeni: That can get pretty differentiated
        Bolonath Crystal: i'm so sorry, but rl is calling. i have to go
        Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, it's good to find out what's happening in your life.
        Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now
        Bolonath Crystal: see you next time, cal. have a nice day
        Calvino Rabeni: You too Bolo
        Bolonath Crystal: om shanti :)
        Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_

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