2009.12.27 19:00 - What Mothers Can Do / YSBS Theme

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni; who also edited and commented the log.

    Starting with Avatar chat and appearances, the "weather" of Second Life.

    Wol Euler: hello alvino
    Wol Euler: +c
    Calvino Rabeni: Good to see you 'ol
    Calvino Rabeni: +W
    Wol Euler: :-P
    Wol Euler: is that a new skin? your beard seems more pronounced than I remember
    Calvino Rabeni: I did not do anything...
    Wol Euler: huh
    Calvino Rabeni: Things got a little strange with a couple of other objects
    Calvino Rabeni: Gremlins?
    Wol Euler: you seem to have lost your left arm too
    Calvino Rabeni: I see it
    Wol Euler: ah, yes
    Calvino Rabeni: A pillow object on my plot was moved; nor would it rotate or settle when I tried to position it.
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Wol Euler: were you the owner?
    Wol Euler: perhaps somebody else put it htere
    Calvino Rabeni: It seemed haunted - it levitated and misbehaved
    Calvino Rabeni: I put it there or it was replaced by an exact duplicate :)
    Wol Euler: hmmmm

    Calvino Rabeni: It seems slightly weird that the avatar heads gaze at the direction of the cursor, whether or not it is looking at an in-world object. It makes the avi look like it is having an illusion
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: very hard to make your av look at somebody in particular
    Calvino Rabeni: And gives away information about the presence of UI objects that arent in the shared world
    Wol Euler: hello steve
    Calvino Rabeni: Steve :)
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Calvino Rabeni: And Pema also :)
    Wol Euler looks around
    Wol Euler: ah, pema :)
    Wol Euler: merry christmas
    Pema Pera: Hi Wol, Steve, Calvino!
    Wol Euler: er, post-christmas now
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Pema
    stevenaia Michinaga: I can finally see everyone :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome to the quitet Sunday nights I would spend here Calvino, happy to pass them on to you
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Calvino Rabeni: Certainly. The last meeting of the week.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes

    Pema launches topic talk.

    Pema Pera: I was reading through older chat logs, and found an interesting quote from Calvino, a week ago, Dec. 20, 1 pm: Calvino Rabeni: The things appear just before they can be dropped - so I barely see the things I "cannot drop"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is about the possible meaning of belief I suppose
    Calvino Rabeni: meanings, plural
    Calvino Rabeni: Also perhaps same for perception
    Pema Pera: yes, seeing and dropping seem to be two sides of the same coin
    Pema Pera: you can't drop what you can't see yet
    Calvino Rabeni: Seems true
    Pema Pera: and also while you can't drop it, being glued to it, it is likely you can't see it either
    Wol Euler nods.
    Pema Pera: so what to do? :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I like that - very direct
    Calvino Rabeni: My answer personally, is that there are some kinds of ambiguously related phenomena that are in a sense different handles on the same thing
    Calvino Rabeni: where the emerge from deeper unconsciousness
    Calvino Rabeni: They emerge, I meant
    Calvino Rabeni: Also, a degree of intention may help
    Pema Pera: yes, everything helps!
    Pema Pera: as I see it, it's like a bootstrapping method: you begin to drop a little bit, you don't quite know what, in the 9-sec; then you begin to see a little bit more, vague misty contours, you don't quite know what yet; but somehow these give you a bit more courage and incentive to explore dropping futher; then seeing yet more; etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, gradual revealing
    Pema Pera: like a child learning a language -- without a dictionary


    Pema Pera: most religions have adult language learning approaches, with dictionaries and list of does and don'ts and lots of theory -- PaB is more child-like in its approach, perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: When you first learned a second language - english say -
    Pema Pera: and the two are complementary, of course
    Calvino Rabeni: and had to hold multiple constructions at the same time
    Calvino Rabeni: with a sense of them being "the same"
    Calvino Rabeni: with a kind of unstable dynamic between the two as per which would dominate as the "primary" concept
    Calvino Rabeni: how was that negotiated?
    Calvino Rabeni: For me the dropping has elements of that
    Wol Euler: interesting analogy
    Pema Pera: interesting -- yes, seeing two ways to say more or less the same diminishes automatic identification with either one
    Pema Pera: sayings become "portable" , "exchangeable"
    Calvino Rabeni: reminds me of cubism in art
    Wol Euler: I think learning anohter language encourages both/and thinking, rather than the "only one can be right" mentality of either/or
    Calvino Rabeni: the artists play with it
    Calvino Rabeni: the opposite experiences seems to be portrayed by the picture of the little dog running
    Calvino Rabeni: and it has 8 or 9 legs
    Calvino Rabeni: because that is how it looks
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera often feels that way at work . . . .
    Wol Euler: heh
    Calvino Rabeni: In a martial arts practice the opponent may look like that little dog - or like a hindu god with many arms
    Pema Pera: (or running around to find a coffeeshop in Kyoto with an electric outlet! Just found one in time to come in at this session :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: It is part of experience of Time
    Calvino Rabeni: many things happen at once - they crowd together into the space represented by the mental image
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah Pema,that is a breakthrough
    Pema Pera: ?
    Wol Euler: hello eos
    Pema Pera: hi Eos!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pema, Wol, Steve, Cal
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Eos
    Calvino Rabeni: The quest for stable electricity in Kyoto

    A shift in direction - this was intended to be a Theme session on PaB "seeing" perspectives

    Pema Pera: Wol just reminded me that this was scheduled as a theme session about YS, ES, BS -- sorry, I had forgotten completely, my fault
    Wol Euler: sounds like a post-modern samurai film
    Calvino Rabeni: I forgot that also
    Pema Pera: I would have search more frantically, had I remembered :-)
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Eos Amaterasu: MacEden
    Pema Pera: Wol, shall we do a BS light perhaps :-)
    Pema Pera: in the remaining of this hour?
    stevenaia Michinaga: thinks about dropping also as a creative process, having to create a thought, drop a thought and not look back, so you can continually do it agan
    Wol Euler: sure
    Eden Haiku: ;-)
    Pema Pera: we can hen follow up further next week or so
    Wol Euler: hello ede
    Pema Pera: hi Eden!
    Wol Euler: *eden
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Eden
    Pema Pera: but perhaps we can creatively connect it with dropping
    Pema Pera: following Steve's hint :)
    Calvino Rabeni: yes Steve,
    Eden Haiku: Sorry to be late... Please continue.
    Eos Amaterasu: you dropping, being dropping?
    Wol Euler laughs.
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera: one key is playfulness
    stevenaia Michinaga: creative Being dropping

    Another topic added to the mix - the Container?  Enabling the Play aspect of PaB?   The Mother Archetype?

    Pema Pera: I loved reading the exchange between Eos and Calvino, a couple weeks ago:
    Pema Pera: Eos Amaterasu: little animals are very experimental when their mommas are close by
    Calvino Rabeni: good example
    Calvino Rabeni: when mother is gone, they hide / contract :)
    Eos Amaterasu: without playfulness, animals, we, don't leave the safe ground
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Pema Pera: so the question is: how can we at PaB create a "momma" atmoshere for each other?
    Eden Haiku: Interesting.
    Pema Pera: and perhaps BS is an answer there
    Pema Pera: (to bring it to our theme session!)
    Pema Pera: Momma Seeing is what the little animals do
    Pema Pera: after all
    Eden Haiku: Aren't you our divine mother Pema? ;-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Part of the answer, is, momma goes out beyond where the little ones do and scouts, models safety of the surrounding
    stevenaia Michinaga: but the Bening Seeing is such a truly creative process of play
    Pema Pera: hehehe, fortunately not, Eden, Being forbid!
    stevenaia Michinaga: *"Being"
    Eden Haiku: Maybe not Pema but you carved the cradle...
    Pema Pera: Being Seeing allows new playfulness that YS and even ES does not easily allow you to discover
    Eos Amaterasu starts imagining "the Pema Madonna" :-)
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Eden Haiku: With long hippie hair ;-)


    Pema Pera: (it reminds me of an Italian way of cursing . . . the first word also starting with a P)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Eden Haiku: ;-)))
    Eden Haiku: Pema Pera: so the question is: how can we at PaB create a "momma" atmoshere for each other?
    Pema Pera: by letting Being lead perhaps, what do you think?
    Pema Pera: not so much "lead" but "being there"
    Eden Haiku: Beautiful question Pema. So how can we create this atmosphere?
    Pema Pera: the mother does not "lead" the play of the children
    Pema Pera: let Being be there
    Wol Euler nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: but, leads the creation of the space
    Pema Pera: and acknowledge Being be there?
    Pema Pera: hence the switch from YS to BS
    Calvino Rabeni: the little ones watch, momma is at ease and moves around
    Pema Pera: have you tried that switch, Eden?
    Calvino Rabeni: that is safety
    Eden Haiku: From YS to BS, yes.
    Pema Pera: how did that feel?
    Eden Haiku: Like Shiva on mount Kailash overlooking the world.
    Pema Pera: :-)

    Seeking an enabling and supporting quality...

    Pema Pera: was it encouraging?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Eden Haiku: I used to practice this meditation in Shivaism of Kashmir meditation practice.
    Eos Amaterasu listens
    Eden Haiku: Yes, feeling powerful and detachedf at the same time. Easy when feeling good. Not so when being upset...
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe working with Qi to be a similar thing
    Pema Pera: can you tell us more about the practice, and its results on you? How do you do it, and what was difficult when being upset?
    Eden Haiku: I did parctice when I was living in an ashram in India, a long time ago. I only rememberone had to see herself as Shiva on his mountain and after a few series of mantras, I felt I disappeared and I had a wide angle on the world, little me being some speck of dust somewhere in it and I did not care.
    Wol Euler nods
    Eden Haiku: When upset, I wanted Shiva to be my Mom...
    Pema Pera: how nice! Perhaps, if we try to translate cautiously, a bit like moving from ES to BS ?
    Pema Pera: during, or after the practice, Eden?
    Eden Haiku: I mean I could not do it when I was upset.
    Eden Haiku: As far as I remember.
    Pema Pera: that's very interesting too!
    Pema Pera: to feel such emotions anchoring the YS attitude
    Eden Haiku: Moving from Enlightened Seing to Being Seing Pema, could you say more?
    Eos Amaterasu: Interesting. There is a phrase from Avatar the movie that lingers: "the mother does not take sides. She cares only for the balance of life"
    Pema Pera: !
    Wol Euler nods.
    Pema Pera: ES is more like trying to take a stance as if you are already enlightened, for example, are like Shiva; whereas BS just let's Being See without any reference back to a sense of you
    Eden Haiku: *Seeing
    Pema Pera: (and Wol, given that we got off at a rather informal start, do you have any question or comment you'd like to share about YS, ES, BS?)

    Seeing both sides of  enabling.

    Calvino Rabeni: also, mothers are very protective of their young
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: but invisibly so, perhaps, from the point of view of the young
    Pema Pera: instinctively they feel it, but perhaps can't see it clearly
    Wol Euler: ideally, yes, that is what allows them to be brave near her
    Eden Haiku: Thanks, I thought Siva Seeing would be Being Seeing. But I see it is too limited..
    Wol Euler: overprotection is the opposite of that, it produces weakness


    Pema Pera: it could be that too, Eden! It all depends on how you view Shiva -- but typically taking a single God or Goddess is more likely to give a feeling tone or sense that does not (yet) go beyond all distinctions and dualities . . . and then again, during one round of practice, things can also change, it is all very fluid!
    Eden Haiku: Yes when I was doing it as I was embracing hindouism, Shiva was Being. Now, I see things differently.
    Pema Pera suddenly remembers a quote by Eos, three weeks ago: Eos Amaterasu: Let's not wait to be, let's be
    Eos Amaterasu: oh oh!
    Pema Pera: (2009/12/02/07:)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders, is it possible to "do" BS, to tell someone else "how"?
    Calvino Rabeni: Then you could say - do it now
    Pema Pera: that's the paradox, Calvino . . . .
    Pema Pera: but you can try, anyway, to stop not-doing-it :-)
    Eden Haiku: Avalokiteshvara would be a more motherly figure. But still no BS, I guess.
    Pema Pera: how about doing a little experiment (no need to wait for the next bell): we start with BS, lightly, and then watch ourselves coming out of it, watching the shift back to YS?
    Calvino Rabeni: I've found, doing is as powerful as not-doing as an approach
    Eden Haiku: Ok.
    Pema Pera: let Being be, and then watch the self claiming, taking over
    Pema Pera: perhaps for two or three minutes?
    Wol Euler: ok
    Pema Pera: from BS to YS, instead of the other way around
    Pema Pera: here we go then!
    Wol Euler: at the bell?
    Wol Euler: oh
    Pema Pera: ding . . . dong . . .
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Wol Euler: ((has to go AFK to find a power point for her laptop))

    Some inside stories of what happened when we looked at reality in the suggested way...

    Pema Pera: how was it?
    Eden Haiku: Sailing withiin a golden vessel made of flickering lights of consciousness then into my feet very heavy on the ground, like lead feet and my hands wanting to leap to the keyboard to claim the image.
    stevenaia Michinaga: was ahving great dificulty, cat was needing attension so I tried CAt as being seeing and I couldn't get into cat seeing as being
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Eden Haiku: chuckles at Steve's predicament ;-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: we must practice more
    Eden Haiku: The cat and you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Every now and then self nagged a little -"remember to come back, don't stay forever"
    Eos Amaterasu: cheshire cat seeing, cheshire cat smile seeing
    Eden Haiku: ;-)
    Pema Pera: I felt a kind of oscillation, like breathing, between the wider view of Being and the more narrow view of my self
    Eden Haiku: That is worth an entry in the glossary Eos!
    Pema Pera: noticing that also nothing was lost during the shrinking, yet a sense of relief en freedom during the widening
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, in and out quality
    Pema Pera: Eos will draw ten cat herding pictures . . . .
    Eos Amaterasu: being seeing is a little scary for me seeing
    Eden Haiku: Nothing was lost during the shrinking? I thought the feeling of loss was inherent...
    Pema Pera: Hi Hotaru!
    Pema Pera: nice seeing you again!!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Hotaru!
    Pema Pera: not necessarily, Eden
    Eden Haiku: hello mermaid Lady!


    Pema Pera: that's the self's view
    Wol Euler: back, reading

    An old friend appears after an absence

    Hotaru Myoo: hi ther!
    Hotaru Myoo: sorry to swim in unannounced
    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome Hotaru
    Hotaru Myoo: thank you
    Hotaru Myoo: wow... 15 now...not 5?
    Pema Pera: does that make sense, Eden, that we can feel at the same time a limiting move, and not a limiting move?
    Pema Pera: as self a sense of limitation, yet as Being no difference at all?
    Calvino Rabeni: the bell rings every 15 minutes
    Pema Pera: (Hotaru, we went from 9 seconds to 90 seconds, in SL only; still 9 sec in RL)
    Eden Haiku: Yes, I see your point Pema. I'm not there yet though ;-) Well, I guess I am but I don't know it yet...
    Pema Pera: exactly!
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before Hotaru?
    Pema Pera: so now pretend you're there -- by Playing as Being!
    Hotaru Myoo: oh yes
    Eden Haiku: That is what it means!!!
    Eden Haiku: Got it!
    Hotaru Myoo: more a couple of years ago
    Pema Pera: Hotaru was with us as a butterfly, Steve, at the tea house ear!
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Pema Pera: *ear
    Pema Pera: *era
    Wol Euler: hello corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: awww, it has been a while
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Corv
    Pema Pera: hi Corvi!!
    Eden Haiku: Hello LadyBird!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Wol!..Pema, Eos, Stevie! Hi Eden, Calvino, Hotaru!
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Corvi
    Pema Pera: So many old friends dropping in again!
    Pema Pera: how have you been, Corvi?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I've been well, thank you.
    Hotaru Myoo: what a wonderful group
    Hotaru Myoo: what is the topic of conversation tonight?
    Eos Amaterasu: so momma being accepts the you-seeing limiting selves with great good humor, but also sharpness
    Pema Pera: and can already seen them as grown-ups too, in some sense . . .
    Pema Pera: (you seeing Being seeing, Hotaru)
    Pema Pera: (letting Being see, while dropping your self, or stepping out of the way)
    Hotaru Myoo: like the Hawk
    Pema Pera: ?
    Hotaru Myoo: seeing from above
    Pema Pera: !
    Hotaru Myoo: listening for messages
    Pema Pera: and from within and from around and . . . .
    Hotaru Myoo: yes
    Hotaru Myoo: also like Owl
    Pema Pera: and mole :-)
    Hotaru Myoo: from inside the darkness
    Hotaru Myoo: yes
    Eden Haiku: Mother Hawk Being Seing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prL1F...E&translated=1
    Eos Amaterasu: oooh!
    Hotaru Myoo: ty Eden
    Eden Haiku: Sinead O'Connor Being Seing...
    Wol Euler laughs.
    Hotaru Myoo: lol
    Pema Pera trying to lip read while in coffeeshops without ear phones . . .
    Hotaru Myoo: haha
    Hotaru Myoo: btw
    Eden Haiku: For child I'm so glad I found you...Sweet bird even if you did not see me I saw you...
    Pema Pera then watching the time, and realizing he has to be off for lunch!
    Hotaru Myoo: uh huh
    Pema Pera: oh, how nice, Eden!!!
    Hotaru Myoo: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire looks at Eden. "ohhh!"
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Pema
    Eden Haiku: http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/si...other_you.html
    Eos Amaterasu: ciao!
    Eden Haiku: Bye Pema. Have a nice lunch!
    Pema Pera: bye everybody, all of us child-mothers beings-Being :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Pema
    Wol Euler: bye pema

    Hotaru Myoo: so good to meet all of you
    Hotaru Myoo: I am an old-timer
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you, Eden.
    Hotaru Myoo: loved the youtube thingy
    Calvino Rabeni: good to meet you too hotaru - your Obi is beautiful
    Hotaru Myoo: oh ty
    Hotaru Myoo: old
    Hotaru Myoo: ^^
    Hotaru Myoo: probably makes it good
    Hotaru Myoo: lol
    Hotaru Myoo: for pixels
    Hotaru Myoo: I have missed this gathering for a long time
    Eden Haiku: So you are not a mermaid as I first thought? But a butterfly in a kimono?
    Hotaru Myoo: haha
    Eden Haiku: Welcome back Hotaru!
    Hotaru Myoo: I am an illusion
    Hotaru Myoo: ty Eden
    Hotaru Myoo: happy to be here
    Wol Euler: my dears, I must go, it's been a very long day for me. Take care, be happy.
    Hotaru Myoo: always
    stevenaia Michinaga: as do I
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye all
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Wol
    Eos Amaterasu: I will also depart, so bye all!
    Eden Haiku: Bye Steve!
    Calvino Rabeni: fare well :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Nice to meet you, Hotaru
    Eden Haiku: Me too, I'm tired. Bye all!
    Hotaru Myoo: Good to meet you Eos
    Eden Haiku: Hope to meet you again Hotaru!
    Wol Euler: bye for all, and welcome back hotaru
    Hotaru Myoo: indeed
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye all!
    Hotaru Myoo: nite

    Ending the session with a little chat about creativity or something like that

    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Corvu, do you write?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I do.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: why do you ask?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm not published, or even really read.
    Calvino Rabeni: The Raven in your tag (note - it said something like "nevermore")
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but I do write.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ohhhh!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs..I also read. Alot.
    Calvino Rabeni: It is the same with me.
    Calvino Rabeni: Addict
    Calvino Rabeni: to the process, I mean I like doing it
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: exaclty
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I have learned in the last two years that I love writing
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: feel it as a need.

    Familiar dualities in the description of creativity - is it personal or impersonal, inside or outside, "spiritual" or not...

    Calvino Rabeni: For me it is good also to have people to do it with, something informal
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks about this.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Ive only done it as a very solitary activity.
    Calvino Rabeni: can be scary to share, if it is personal


    Calvino Rabeni: In some ways it is like meditation or something spiritual
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...it can be that way.
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe that is why I like it
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Calvino Rabeni: it connects with ... something, hard to describe
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it does very much, it's sort of scary how it doesn't feel like it comes from within at times.
    Calvino Rabeni: I like that, it feels reassuring to me
    Calvino Rabeni: A little like getting some kind of spirit help, or being part of a bigger creative thing
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: so that is interesting now that you mention it, about whether I feel it comes from inside or outside
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Calvino Rabeni: so now I'm thinking, mostly from beyond me, but contacted within, if that makes any sense
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it does.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: For me, I guess, I feel like all the stories come from outside, pass through my lense.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I write
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: as they pass.
    Calvino Rabeni: I feel like that - and take care with the lens to make it work better
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think every writer has ways to encourage the writing
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe little secret rituals, or ways to think to self


    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think otherwise one just doesn't write.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no matter how appealing it might seem to be.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: well I must go.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: for now.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thank you for the conversation.
    Calvino Rabeni: YW, I enjoyed the talk and sit - bye for now.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye for now.
    Calvino Rabeni: :)


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