2009.12.29 19:00 - Economy of Attention

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.


    Eos Amaterasu: Hi doug!
    Eos Amaterasu: ho ho ho
    doug Sosa: post christmas cheerio -oh
    Eos Amaterasu: how is applied play as being going?
    doug Sosa: been getting my first black screen in windows 7 with second life. so i may get knowced out.
    doug Sosa: ah, glad you asked. i don't like the "appled" distinction. ruins the whole thing. If economy is not "seen" in normal experience then i don't want to go there, but i think it is.
    Eos Amaterasu: seeing things in normal experience is seeing them as they matter to you
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Eos and doug
    doug Sosa: yes, well, what i would like to say is, if economy doesn't show up in the 9 sec, and can then be dropped, it isn't intersting. i don't think there is a special division of worlds between applied and pure.
    doug Sosa: hi cal
    Eos Amaterasu: This is great. So let us try that in the 19:15 90 secs coming up
    Eos Amaterasu: (if not sooner)
    Eos Amaterasu: economy in the 90 secs
    Eos Amaterasu: can you say more about that , Doug?
    doug Sosa: or notice and then we can discover after if it was economy or no.
    Calvino Rabeni: greetings Arch
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Arch
    doug Sosa: for example, since i have a few minutes, we are aware of each other (last night), but we are also aware of the building, as a setting, and that setting exudes a kind of opulence, Hilton hawaii, and has an impact on how we experience each other.
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello
    doug Sosa: arch, hi.
    Eos Amaterasu muses on "Hilton hawaii"....
    Eos Amaterasu: I experience this place as very classical
    Eos Amaterasu: this is our Delphi
    doug Sosa: It speaks of power and opulence.
    Archmage Atlantis: This bouncing out of a gay night club while pole dancing is a bit disorienting, one moment
    doug Sosa: classical is a "class' differentiator. This with a good education have it.
    doug Sosa: too fast, those with a good education have "classical" as a marker of class.
    doug Sosa: so in this setting i think we experience that/
    Calvino Rabeni: this economic fish, in the economic water, says...keep speaking of this thing called water
    Archmage Atlantis: I have a prose/poem called water
    doug Sosa: your writing?
    Eos Amaterasu: [19:07] doug Sosa: yes, well, what i would like to say is, if economy doesn't show up in the 9 sec, and can then be dropped, it isn't intersting. i don't think there is a special division of worlds between applied and pure.


    --BELL--


    Archmage Atlantis: Yes
    Eos Amaterasu: Did economy show up? Was it dropped? What else showed up?
    doug Sosa: i looked out in the distance, across the manicured grass, and felt like i was in a country club.
    doug Sosa: economy enough?
    Eos Amaterasu: full of economic implications
    doug Sosa: as present as the cushions we sit on, or the snow..
    Eos Amaterasu: such a way of looking at this place never occurred to me, but I can see it now that you mention it
    doug Sosa: but hadn't you felt it before at times, yet unnoticed?
    Archmage Atlantis: Found it
    Archmage Atlantis: WaterShare Friday, December 25, 2009 at 1:01pm | Edit Note | Delete Water It brings life It brings death It is the force on this planet Who are we I ask the water It only brings new birth As the child is born
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Calvino Rabeni: I imagined all the objects made with atoms around me, each made of energy, with little dollar signs and an equation translating energy to money
    doug Sosa: hi, must be behind me
    Calvino Rabeni: And I felt resistant
    Eos Amaterasu: oh yes... I totally agree with the principle of what you're saying... simple perception is already fully value-charged
    Eos Amaterasu: lag / overlap / asynch
    Archmage Atlantis: Brother, there is no money in true reality
    doug Sosa: nor much reality in true money.
    doug Sosa: But we live in between.
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes we do
    Eos Amaterasu: so from a sustainability point of view, what is true wealth?
    doug Sosa: Is eating part of true reality?
    Archmage Atlantis: Is death a par?
    Archmage Atlantis: What of each of us goes on
    doug Sosa: par three. born, married, die. Don't do a hole in one.
    Archmage Atlantis: For those who have children, the answer seems easy
    Eos Amaterasu groks that in fullness
    Calvino Rabeni: It's hard not to worship money given that every item in my environment is only there due to an immense economic system
    doug Sosa: So the point is economic-like things are experienced directly in normal or 9 sec experience.
    Calvino Rabeni: But I have a hard time labeling it as "direct"
    Calvino Rabeni: Or assigning it any fundamental status
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah, Doug, the fight \goes on .... even if you cannot conclude it
    doug Sosa: the feeling of this space, its opulence, i think is direct. If not, what is more direct?
    Eos Amaterasu: It's also conditional
    Archmage Atlantis: Ideas have true value
    Eos Amaterasu: I did not get a feeling of 'opulence' from it
    Eos Amaterasu: I did, or do, get a different, or various, feelings from it
    doug Sosa: well, my word short cut. the interesting question is what is the experience bing here, not of "it" but the atmosphere, the felt.
    Eos Amaterasu: it's full of charge and value
    Calvino Rabeni: I like this inquiry, doug, and think it of potential value, but it hasn't hinted of any epiphany
    Calvino Rabeni: yet I mean
    Archmage Atlantis: I 0nly know what I feel
    doug Sosa: There is often made, by meditation folks, a distinction between here and now, and abstract out there.
    Calvino Rabeni: still listening
    doug Sosa: My point is that things like economy are absolutely immediate, as are the cushions.
    Archmage Atlantis: A 19 yo music student once asked me...._how do you know what I experience_
    Archmage Atlantis: And I had to say
    doug Sosa: and the here and now vs out there distinction is arbitrary and misleading.
    Archmage Atlantis: I do not
    Eos Amaterasu: if we kept things to that level we wouldn't be taken in by bubbling blizzards of economic b*llsh*t
    doug Sosa: yet that bs also is rel, and experienceable, and has consequences. It is in our environment and no diffeent as a stuff than the water in the pond.
    Eos Amaterasu: if we could but see it
    Eos Amaterasu: in either case
    Calvino Rabeni: it can't be seen?
    Eos Amaterasu: we get divorced from it
    doug Sosa: but we can see it. we see this space and have reactions to it, can feel it is the excrescence of a corporate aesthetic world, an oasis of privelage.


    --BELL--


    Archmage Atlantis: This planet may have seen it's last days......or at least with humans at the helm of the ship.....We have made ourselves into dinosaurs, once dominant, now extinct.
    doug Sosa: I am surrounded by mountains. But i have learned to see the property lines BECASUE I SEE how people trat them as real.
    stevenaia Michinaga: time will tell Arch
    Eos Amaterasu is still non-plussed at the idea of here being a Hawaii Hilton
    Calvino Rabeni: So they appear in the imagination
    Archmage Atlantis: I am with Doug on this, I shall defend our right to be
    doug Sosa: I was recently at the Hilton Hawaian Village in honolulu (conference). Much like. but here calmer people.
    Calvino Rabeni: A direct experience of imagining the property lines
    doug Sosa: I am sorry, dinner is screaming at me... bye for now.
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye doug
    Archmage Atlantis: I have not children or grandchildren, but the animals, we took responsibility for them
    Eos Amaterasu: poof!
    Archmage Atlantis: I will do what I can to fulfill that responsibility
    Calvino Rabeni: My economic status does not include responsibility for children either
    Calvino Rabeni: which translates into lots of free time to do things like SL
    Eos Amaterasu: free time is highly valuable :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: economically, regarded as a non-renewable resource
    stevenaia Michinaga: I often wonder the classifications we put on the indiginous "poor" simply because they don't subscribe or participate in our economic system, yet they have been "sustainable" as a culture for thousands of years w/o money or technology
    Archmage Atlantis: A prose/poem on free time.........It begins with "Time is not free"
    Archmage Atlantis: "It is limite"
    Eos Amaterasu: different ways of thinking/telling the me-in-my-environment story
    Eos Amaterasu: economy is about well-being
    stevenaia Michinaga: sustainability can be to
    stevenaia Michinaga: w/o economy
    Archmage Atlantis: My dad worked of the railroads in the US, his pocket watch was the defining thing to that job
    Eos Amaterasu: his crystal
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a different imagined economy - the one where everything is not a commodity referenced to money as a single measure - economics as a theory is disturbingly totalizing
    Archmage Atlantis: As to avoid train crashes, the trains had to sync
    Archmage Atlantis: Monetarization, this is only to sync
    Archmage Atlantis: Not to rule
    Calvino Rabeni: But it ends up ruling
    Archmage Atlantis: We have given it a ruling position
    Eos Amaterasu: steady-state economics is probably key to sustainability
    Eos Amaterasu: but we only have ponzi growth economic theories
    stevenaia Michinaga: brb
    Calvino Rabeni: money "says" everything is the same, and has no intrinsic value
    Archmage Atlantis: No, Cal, people say that.....money says nothinbg
    Eos Amaterasu: styles of money implementation have huge impact on society - money is not value neutral
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, like guns don't kill people
    Calvino Rabeni: but they do
    Eos Amaterasu: but that is the meme : "business is business"
    Calvino Rabeni: money is a good tool for ignoring many aspects of life
    Eos Amaterasu: lives by its own rules
    Calvino Rabeni: not value neutral
    Archmage Atlantis: Selling ones soul to Mammon, that is an ancient trait of humans
    Eos Amaterasu: so how is that happening right now? Selling our attention to distractions?
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah, good question Eos
    Calvino Rabeni: as you know, attention has been monetarized also
    Calvino Rabeni: thus spawning an industry based on controlling peoples attention


    --BELL--


    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, it always has been, did not the emperors and pharoahs demand full attention
    Archmage Atlantis: Their way or the highway, sts
    Eos Amaterasu: Most of what we attend to is other people, their attention
    Eos Amaterasu: and our attention is jumpy, a little psycho even
    Eos Amaterasu: it's not different than a personal 90 secs
    Eos Amaterasu: but it needs to go global

    Calvino Rabeni: say more eos? what needs to go global?
    Eos Amaterasu: being able to relax in attention

    Eos Amaterasu: as opposed to jumping around being pulled this way and that by it
    Calvino Rabeni: something like, being "at choice" with every activity? Or just certain times?
    Eos Amaterasu: (maybe a "slow media" movement :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I propose a Media Sabbath.
    Calvino Rabeni: No media allowed that day of the week.
    Eos Amaterasu: I second that
    Eos Amaterasu: We did that for a while at my home
    Eos Amaterasu: analog sundays
    Eos Amaterasu: no screens
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: zeroth life
    Archmage Atlantis: And on the 7th day, God rested
    Eos Amaterasu: cause real life is with screens
    Calvino Rabeni: Books ok on Analog Sunday?
    Eos Amaterasu: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: (don't know about kindle)
    Calvino Rabeni: Machine games not ok?
    Eos Amaterasu: Not okay
    Calvino Rabeni: makes sense
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, just your senses :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: SL helps in appreciating that kind of time-out
    Calvino Rabeni: A day to not be programmed
    Eos Amaterasu: cause it's a kind of time-out... maybe we get more flexible in seeing / trying /dropping nth-lives
    Archmage Atlantis: You 2 are founding new age fundamentalism
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Arch :)
    Eos Amaterasu: world domination :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Teach each to let go, when the need to let go is needed
    Calvino Rabeni: A fundamentalism that is only 1 of 7 days is ok by me - actually the definition to me of fundamentalism is it tries to totalize everything in some way
    Archmage Atlantis: Allow others to hold, what they need to hold
    Calvino Rabeni: everything else is a gesture of balance
    Eos Amaterasu: it helps to pull the plug to hear the noise
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes
    Eos Amaterasu: that's also how the 9 secs or 90 secs works
    Calvino Rabeni: A restriction of the freedom to be programmed, is a liberation
    Calvino Rabeni: as is any true discipline
    Archmage Atlantis: That is why Hillel has rabbi's and not priests
    Calvino Rabeni: makes good sens
    Calvino Rabeni: a rabbi is more a leader, less a dictator
    Calvino Rabeni: more a friend
    Archmage Atlantis: rabbi is teacher
    Archmage Atlantis: I do not even like that
    Calvino Rabeni: a distinctive type of teacher, though
    Archmage Atlantis: I prefer "one who shares"
    Calvino Rabeni: is good
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the dialogue and argument of that tradition, compared to authoritarianism that imposes things
    Archmage Atlantis: It is why I had to change a saying that was given to me by one whom I respect
    Archmage Atlantis: Learn, Share one's learning, Love yourself, Love others"
    Calvino Rabeni: What did you change, Arch?


    --BELL--


    Archmage Atlantis: Share one's learning.....it was given to me as teach......my mother was a 5th grade teacher......I could only hear that as obey what one is taught.
    Calvino Rabeni: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the classic saying - If not me, then who? If not now, then when?
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I like that also
    Archmage Atlantis: It is a quote
    Calvino Rabeni: Hillel I think?
    Archmage Atlantis: I believe so, yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Having the chat logs is very interesting - it makes it possible to be more objective about opinions I may question
    Archmage Atlantis: Another theologian I have found comfort in is Paul Tillich
    Calvino Rabeni: What does he bring?
    Archmage Atlantis: The courage to be is the courage to accept oneself, in spite of being unacceptable. - Paul Tillich (1886 - 1965)
    Eos Amaterasu: to be unconditionally
    Eos Amaterasu: I have to leave.... bye Cal and Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: yes, Eos, that is what it says
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: rich discussion
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, lots there, fertile
    Archmage Atlantis: Seeds planted in fertile ground grow
    Calvino Rabeni: Over time, if watered, they do
    Archmage Atlantis: Seeds planted in the desert survive
    Calvino Rabeni: And protected from the light of the sun
    Calvino Rabeni: darkness is important to a seed
    Archmage Atlantis: A friend of mine, who is German, said I am like a saying he knows
    Archmage Atlantis: It did not translate well to English
    Archmage Atlantis: Still I understood
    Archmage Atlantis: It was something like
    Archmage Atlantis: "Bad weeds grow tall"
    Calvino Rabeni: What did you take the message to be?
    Archmage Atlantis: That I am a difficult weed, and I shall always return


    --BELL--


    Calvino Rabeni: I figured out that Google is a better way to scan the chat logs than the search engine built into the wiki
    Archmage Atlantis: There are many who await me - t\his II I do notunderstand
    Archmage Atlantis: Pray for your soul Cal, as you are chosen
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, Arch I will :)
    Calvino Rabeni: PaB is pretty inter-religious as it stands
    Calvino Rabeni: I would care for an occasional focus
    Calvino Rabeni: but not sure how well it would work
    Archmage Atlantis: It is a glimpse of enlightenment
    Archmage Atlantis: Must go
    Calvino Rabeni: Same, see you later Arch
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
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