2009.12.30 07:00 - 仁 , Seeing the Real WHY (struggle session 4)

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal who was joined for this pre-planned session by Gaya, Sophia, Yakuzza. After the hour, Zon and Aidan arrived. 

    Links to previous Struggle sessions:

    (The first was not a planned session, but the session in which the topic arose)

    2009.10.30 13:00 - A bit about culture. 

    2009.11.11 07:00 - Struggle, Tears, Wisdom, and Silence 

     2009.11.20 07:00 - Struggle 3 

                   

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: Hello :) pixil Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: What a lovely gown you're wearing :)
    sophia Placebo: ty :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :) Snapshot_072.jpg
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello ladies :)
    sophia Placebo: Hello Eliza :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to see you again both :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm happy you both were able to make it. I wasn't sure, as it seems everyone is 'off schedule' lately
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    sophia Placebo smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: (Can't resist pictures)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey, eliza
    sophia Placebo: hi yak

    We begin...

    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... I've been thinking about struggle ... where to make such efforts.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: gaya, sophia :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still rezzing
    Eliza Madrigal: Ya, we're continuing the discussion on 'Struggle" today
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, you mean what is worth struggling over?
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Gaya Ethaniel: Before I suggest something along that line, can you think of something that fits in that category btw?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, Authenticity
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: For me, I am willing to wrestle and struggle myself in order to be in touch with a sense of living an authentic life...
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah yes
    Eliza Madrigal: it is the same 'heart desires' question, for me at least
    Eliza Madrigal: What is essential/real
    Gaya Ethaniel looks for the notecard.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Would you care to say more about 'living authentically'? What does that involve for you?
    Eliza Madrigal: Not too much more I think, but it seems what spirituality is about.. even in biblical lines like 'work out your salvation in fear and trembling'... there is a sense of zero-ing in on what's important and allowing everything else to fall away if necessary... something like that
    Gaya Ethaniel: How do you decide what is being authentic or not?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, how? :)
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Otherwise, how can you even struggle ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: It is said that knowing 'destinations', mind becomes calmer, more perceptive to learn.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway, I've been thinking perhaps along a similar line.
    sophia Placebo: struggle for what lasts rather for what ends?finishes? , sruggle for what grow rather for what regress
    Gaya Ethaniel: Struggle to establish good practice

    --BELL--

    Struggle is a paradox. Allowing and dropping sound like such 'easy' things, and they are. Sometimes getting into a place where we don't resist dropping and allowing can be really hard? 


    Eliza Madrigal nods. yes, like why take the time to actually engage in 'drop what you have to see what you are'... it is a decision toward living more essentially?
    Eliza Madrigal: uncovering authenticity
    Eliza Madrigal: (but now I'll be quiet for a while ;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, making a commitment to practice [whatever you decide to] daily etc.
    sophia Placebo nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Practice => good habit
    Gaya Ethaniel: This is a bit of struggle I think.
    Gaya Ethaniel: But perhpas a worthwhile one ...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: What gets in the way of establishing such a good habit for you guys?
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, a surprisingly tough question Gaya!

    Sophia points to the heart of the discussion... 


    sophia Placebo: weak will
    sophia Placebo: unclear WHY
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't have answers for this ... just wondering too.
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes I am too accomodating and work my practice around others and events, etc
    Gaya Ethaniel: This probably relates to what SophiaSharon said early on, us working against us.
    Gaya Ethaniel listens.
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, when we really key into the 'WHY' Sophia mentions, there isn't much that will be able to stand in the way I think?

    sophia Placebo: there is :)

    sophia Placebo: very hard to see real Why

    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    sophia Placebo: some poeple give up
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... so if 'why' is clear, strong will will follow naturally?
    sophia Placebo: and after seeing the some aspects of why they see the others aspects of why iam not too
    Eliza Madrigal: So, even if I know that my taking time to sit while at my mother's house (for instance) might cause a 3 hr 'discussion' about the 'errors of my ways', when I can taste freedom/authtenticity as something stronger than the discomfort of that conversation... I'll just do it :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: For me 'why' cannot be clear until some practice is done ... otherwise it's catch twenty two ... hence need some push initially.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, sorry to hear that Eliza, people should respect your needs too ...
    Eliza Madrigal: and what you say is very true, too... often emerging maybe there isn't the conversation... but as a practical "choice" toward the 'why', I have to risk it. :)
    Eliza Madrigal: These are the things we all go through in various ways I think
    Eliza Madrigal: initial push
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    --BELL--
    Eliza Madrigal: This is a wonderful line of inquiry ... locating the why... wow
    Gaya Ethaniel nods ... ponders.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Of course, Stim did ask me in the last workshop to think about re: why I'd practice etc.
    Eliza Madrigal: !!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know at least mine isn't 'self' motivated ... not as much as I can see at least.
    Eliza Madrigal: Sophia, is there more you can say about your personal experience in this regard?
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    sophia Placebo: the why ?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: mhm
    sophia Placebo: mmm take it step by step
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    sophia Placebo: that is stop at every conclusion you make after a thughtful day
    sophia Placebo: and accept it
    sophia Placebo: live with it as life style , personal philosophy
    sophia Placebo: then another door will open :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heart decisions
    Gaya Ethaniel: You mean stop at each conclusion of 'why'?
    sophia Placebo: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    sophia Placebo: why you practice ?
    sophia Placebo: you said it wasnt self motivated
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, what did you think of when Stim asked you Gaya? :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I just want to do ... hard to describe beyond that.
    sophia Placebo: but you didnt say what motivation it was
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's what I thought at the time too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It feels important ... yet I've had an 'interruption' over Christmas and it's ok with me. I can start again ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure, because its a heart decision... not a head decision like "I won't drink coffee"... but if not drinking coffee supports the heart decision... maybe easier
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've been looking up some texts instead anyway so it's a kind of continuity.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: can't really fall off this wagon I think
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^;;;
    Eliza Madrigal giggles

    Don't decorate it...

    sophia Placebo: you dont need to look for fancy answer , dont decorate it :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed ... no decorating.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: bare essentials
    sophia Placebo: last time someone asked me why do you work as doctor i said i work for money
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    sophia Placebo: thats is the simpler ,yet the most honest answer i have
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's a good occupation :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and yet it is of great benefit to many...
    Eliza Madrigal: so you might have said many things
    sophia Placebo: yes thast decoration
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh
    Eliza Madrigal: love that
    Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
    sophia Placebo: thats make me like realists who wont go beyond what they see
    sophia Placebo: but im not not rethinking or living the why
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or ... you're just allowing some space to see something for yourself.
    Eliza Madrigal: It reminds me of what you said about attending Hajj Sophia... the value in everyone being brought to basic level...
    sophia Placebo: so im not too realist nor too romanitic i guess
    sophia Placebo nods to Gaya and Eliza

    A line from "A Serious Man"...


    Gaya Ethaniel: Like what Rashi said ...

    "Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you."

    Eliza Madrigal: MMM, yes :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Simplicity ... :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So, could WHY the same for all?
    Eliza Madrigal: *be
    Gaya Ethaniel: In a way though this simplicity stage comes after much decoration in general I think.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It could change like sophia said?
    Eliza Madrigal: like, authenticity is still a pointer for me... still a bit like a decoration

    --BELL--

    Eliza Madrigal: *my* authenticity isn't the point
    Eliza Madrigal: not *really*
    Gaya Ethaniel: Everyone needs a picture, a word ... a pointer to start :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    sophia Placebo: i guess
    Eliza Madrigal: It is something I can relate to someone
    sophia Placebo: i think we call them strings
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
    sophia Placebo: things you hold on for a while
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why is that important you think Eliza, relating I mean?
    Eliza Madrigal pictures a balloon ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Make sense sophia, a connection ...
    sophia Placebo nods

    An interview in the background of my washing dishes one day...

    I failed to mention that she not only runs it but spends possibly 10 hrs of each day involved in even the details.  

    Eliza Madrigal: There is this lady in town, an art collector, who runs a place called "Lotus House", which helps homeless women learn to care for themselves...
    Eliza Madrigal: in an interview she was asked why, and she said because "they are me"...
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I was struck by her answer. It was very simple
    Gaya Ethaniel: They are me as in ... oh I see.
    Eliza Madrigal: that's her practice... she could just buy dresses and go to parties :)
    Eliza Madrigal: except that she cant
    Eliza Madrigal: because she knows they are her :)

    So her work is 'hard', but maybe not a struggle with will ...


    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Shall I tell you something interesting?
    sophia Placebo: please :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes please :)

    Essential ethics...


    Gaya Ethaniel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius
    Gaya Ethaniel: In Ethics part there is a mention of 仁 - the virtue of perfectly fulfilling one's responsibilities toward others, most often translated as "benevolence" or "humaneness"
    Gaya Ethaniel: The character 仁 is made up of two parts - 人 [human] + 二 [# two]
    Gaya Ethaniel: In Confucianism, 仁 is one of the core values, literally means wise, kind, compassionate, receptive etc.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Isn't that interesting?
    Eliza Madrigal: That's stunning, Gaya!


    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... learning to live with others in harmony is essence of ethics it seems in this tradition.


    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: the essence of ethics is an interesting phrase, too...
    Eliza Madrigal: wow I always feel like we've just started when we get to the end of the hour on this subject
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey Zon!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, I think we can fold this subject for a while now, what do you think?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zon :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I think we can unfold it forever
    sophia Placebo: intersting Gaya ! the link
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    sophia Placebo: hi zon
    Eliza Madrigal: Zon, we've been talking about 'struggle' today, and WHY struggle to practice...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think I will continue studying ethics for a while.
    sophia Placebo: indeed very fast time
    Zon Quar: struggle yes
    Zon Quar: cause we want to achieve
    --BELL--
    Gaya Ethaniel: I avoid those struggle if possible :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Time to go ... nice to catch up with you girls!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have a good day everyone :)
    Zon Quar: bye G
    sophia Placebo: bye gaya :)
    sophia Placebo: thnx
    Zon Quar: ego wants to struggle
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you sophia and Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Gaya! Bye for now
    Zon Quar: cause it thinks it is lacking something
    sophia Placebo: hmm intersting thought
    Eliza Madrigal: Sophia was calling that 'decoration'
    sophia Placebo: i didnt undrstand it like that actually
    Eliza Madrigal: I know in another context, but seems very much the same? It is the ego that wants accolades and some 'idea' of success
    Eliza Madrigal: Say more?
    sophia Placebo: zon have to say more so i know if i get it right or not
    Zon Quar: well..like buddha said..desire causes suffering
    Zon Quar: struggle
    Zon Quar: we want things
    Zon Quar: there r oppoisng forces
    sophia Placebo: could be consequences too
    Zon Quar: so there is struggle
    sophia Placebo: you desire lots of money thats mean you would suffer to get it and to keep it
    Zon Quar: yup
    sophia Placebo: but struggle is to say to your desire to have more money no
    Eliza Madrigal: Ego seems to be defined by missing the point.. money is fine but disatisfying as an ornament
    Zon Quar: yes u can have conficying desires
    Zon Quar: that causes struggle too
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zon Quar: basically i thinks struggle means..u got something wrong
    Zon Quar: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zon Quar: if there is right of wrong
    Eliza Madrigal: Isen once pointed out that dukka (suffering in buddhism) means 'wobbly wheel'
    Zon Quar: better say..u r not so skillful as u could be
    Eliza Madrigal: something is just off...hahah
    Eliza Madrigal: we try to go 'there' and end up 'here', etc
    Zon Quar: we r here but we dont like it
    Zon Quar: we think its better there
    Eliza Madrigal: and it takes a long time to do, with the wheel wobbling
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: WB ya :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thx :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to have to get going for now... shopping to do and I'd like to attend the party this afternoon
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zon, hello aidan
    Zon Quar: hi Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aidan, Nice to see you again
    Aidan Spiritor: Hello
    Zon Quar: Aidan
    sophia Placebo: bye eliza :)
    Zon Quar: bye eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: We've had a nice session on struggle this morning, but unfortunately I'm going to have to get going :)
    Eliza Madrigal: PaB party is in front of the Village Hall starting at....
    sophia Placebo: hi aidan
    Zon Quar: dont struggle too hard
    Aidan Spiritor: Hi :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: 2PM SLT
    Eliza Madrigal: going on to 6PM SLT! Everyone should try to come for a bit
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, Thanks Zon
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now and Thanks!
    sophia Placebo: i g2g too , bye all
    Aidan Spiritor: BYE
    Zon Quar: bye sophia
    Aidan Spiritor: Looks like session is ending?
    Zon Quar: nods
    Zon Quar: going too, cu later
    Aidan Spiritor: bye
    Yakuzza Lethecus: this started at 1 am
    Yakuzza Lethecus: every session usually goes about 1 hour
    Yakuzza Lethecus: 7 am
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sry :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but it´s 4 times a day
    --BELL--
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or are you already familiar with pab ?

    Dropping in randomly...


    Aidan Spiritor: I see. I just drop in randomly from time to time to see what't up..
    Aidan Spiritor: somewhat familiar.. guess we should sit for awhile..
    Yakuzza Lethecus: alia institute ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i haven´t been searching for new places in the last month
    Aidan Spiritor: Authentic Leadership In Action..
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, eos is very nice
    Aidan Spiritor: Yes I agreee. Has he been here recently?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: he stepped by yesterday or the day before
    Yakuzza Lethecus: he was here more frequently in the past
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but it´s right after christmas and the new year is comming up
    Aidan Spiritor: Yes I believe he was.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: everyone with familiy might have other things to do :)
    Aidan Spiritor: Do you have family?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no, i am not married and i don´t have kids
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am 27
    Aidan Spiritor: Mom, dad, sisters, brothers??
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sure both parents sister and brother
    Yakuzza Lethecus: do you have family ?
    Aidan Spiritor: so are you visiting with them over the hiolidays?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i was over christmas
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ur from canada ?
    Aidan Spiritor: Yes, lots of family. One of 11 siblings. Married 33 yrs . Two daughters and three grandsons..
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am thinking about the ,,bit french" :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, that seems to be the common age around here
    Aidan Spiritor: Yes Canada, english but speak some french
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean around 50

    Giggling...


    Yakuzza Lethecus: i remember when i believed that only young ppl are using the internet :)
    Aidan Spiritor: Actually 62..
    Aidan Spiritor: I feel young..:-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: my farther is 57 and he started skiing 3 years ago :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: he also seemed to be like a child sometimes :)
    Aidan Spiritor: good for him. Is he 'retired"?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: internet is just to figure out the avarage snowlevel :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no, he sill got some years to work, especially since he lost his company a few years back
    Aidan Spiritor: what is your native language and country of origin/residence?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: germany/nrw/balve
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so it´s german
    Aidan Spiritor: Losing a company can be a very painful experience..
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s interesting, to some extend it was even the beginning of a better life for him
    Aidan Spiritor: I will be in Amsterdam from 7th - 16th
    Yakuzza Lethecus: at least i believe that, since he worked sunday-saturday before
    Aidan Spiritor: Yes in some ways it frees one..
    Yakuzza Lethecus: now he´s just employed
    Yakuzza Lethecus: he didn´t do hiking/skiing before that

    !!


    Aidan Spiritor: Ownership can be all consuming ..
    Yakuzza Lethecus: kind of become the slave of urself

    Aidan Spiritor: So have you been enjoying this site?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am here for about 5-6 month now, yes sometimes i do
    Aidan Spiritor: What type of work do you do in RL?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am just a metal worker
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what did you do/study/lifestudy ?
    Aidan Spiritor: Tradesman or artist? Or possibly both?
    --BELL--
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so you´ve been a tradesman ?
    Aidan Spiritor: Why do you say 'just' a metal worker?
    Aidan Spiritor: No, not really...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, i wanted to study computer sciences but i just had to many issues with math
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i did an apprenticeship to become a metal worker in order to make money
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thats where i am kinda stuck right now :P
    Aidan Spiritor: Yes math skills would be pretty useful, possibly essential..
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i had only the options to study computer sciences or electrical engineering with my degree before
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye the way i would never study philosophy/psych because i don´t want to kill my interest :P
    Yakuzza Lethecus: if you´ve seen my profile
    Aidan Spiritor: You are still very young. exploring options is still very available to you..
    Aidan Spiritor: Why would that kill your interest?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: because thats what killed my interest in computer sciences pretty much i already struggle as soon as i think of assembler,c++, algorithms and mathematical objects
    Aidan Spiritor: But mathematics would not be as much of an obstacle in these subjects..
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i have some triggers which are kinda irrational and i think about that it´s not ,,just me" that i have those but i build them for myself somehow in order to be able to deconstruct those
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, in philosophy and psych it is an big object :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: especially psych is much statistics
    Yakuzza Lethecus: whats the office package for an office worker is spss for the psychologist :P
    Yakuzza Lethecus: might depending on the field he´s in :)
    Aidan Spiritor: well yes that could be true. Statistics is a challenging discipline.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: may i ask what you studied or still study ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: *grabbing coffee brb*
    Aidan Spiritor: I must go get some lunch, its 12:30 here now... If you read my BIO you will seee that i have studied many subjects..
    Aidan Spiritor: I enjoyed our chat. Perhaps we will meet here again..
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, take care
    Aidan Spiritor: BYE..

    .

    Tag page (Edit tags)

    Files 1

    FileSizeDateAttached by 
     Snapshot_072.jpg
    No description
    461.57 kB20:23, 9 Apr 2010elizaActions
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core