2010.01.05 19:00 - Space In Tension Ality

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.


    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Eos
    Calvino Rabeni: Are you ready for a theme session?
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes...




    Calvino Rabeni: My thought was to propose a few ideas for discussion, then open the floor.
    Eos Amaterasu: The floor is pretty open :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you have some focus ideas for today?
    Eos Amaterasu: Some themes have been coming up
    Calvino Rabeni: It's open now, but others may show up soon. We could just get started and back-post to new arrivals
    Calvino Rabeni: What has been coming up?
    Eos Amaterasu: one is that of the intention of the facilitator
    Eos Amaterasu: which seems a paradoxical thing to hold
    Eos Amaterasu: if what you see fundamentally being facilitated
    Eos Amaterasu: is openness
    Eos Amaterasu: which means as a facilitator you do have to put your own intentions on the line, so to speak
    Eos Amaterasu: otherwise you're not sharing what you intend to facilitate in others
    Eos Amaterasu: another aspect could be called "we seeing"
    Eos Amaterasu: in terms of facilitating the presence and activity of groups, communities
    Eos Amaterasu: is there something analagous to what happens in individual practice?

    Eos Amaterasu: so we could take YS, ES, BS as an example
    Eos Amaterasu: You Seeing, Enlightened Seeing, Being Seeing
    Eos Amaterasu: and in the case of a group
    Eos Amaterasu: turn the You into a plural
    Eos Amaterasu: You-all seein' :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: or maybe we seeing
    Calvino Rabeni: The we-seeing is a useful perspective
    Eos Amaterasu: so the contemplation is that of the group process recapitulating the individual process
    Eos Amaterasu: I think you get a stronger sense of that in retreat, at least in the group RL retreats I've experienced
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking of facilitation "in the large", not specifically how to facilitate a play-as-being session
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm actually thinking about it the other way around
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Eos Amaterasu: How to facilitate _from_ PaB
    Eos Amaterasu: both re the facilitator coming from that
    Eos Amaterasu: and the group coming from that
    Calvino Rabeni: So the internal experiential state of the facilitator is important for "coming from" into the world
    Eos Amaterasu: in a way the facilitator holds the state of mind, or its call-by-future, for the group
    Eos Amaterasu: but that's a paradoxical holding
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I see that - and demonstrating and communicating it is necessary
    Calvino Rabeni: Presencing it
    Eos Amaterasu: Although in many situations it's a totally unknown situation for the facilitator
    Calvino Rabeni: And you're right, the facilitator may not be able to come from a "control" place
    Eos Amaterasu: So maybe that's a saving grace :-)

    Calvino Rabeni: I have been thinking about the "paradox" concept
    Calvino Rabeni: Reality is not troubled by it :)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: (Whitman again)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Abe
    Calvino Rabeni: In a way, paradox means, that people are trying to think with incompatible concepts, and shoe-horn them together
    Abe Forsythe: hi
    Abe Forsythe: not much going on?
    Eos Amaterasu: Have you been to Play as Being, Abe?
    Eos Amaterasu: before?
    Abe Forsythe: no
    Eos Amaterasu: I'll give you a notecard
    Abe Forsythe: ok
    Eos Amaterasu: basically we discuss the experience of reality, as directly as possible
    Calvino Rabeni: The "pause" is coming up. When the bell rings, we stop for 90 seconds
    Abe Forsythe: oh
    Calvino Rabeni: Just so you know.
    Calvino Rabeni: Every 15 minutes
    Calvino Rabeni: It is an awareness exercise




    Abe Forsythe: thank you
    Eos Amaterasu: Our chats here are recorded, by the way, and posted to a Wiki: is that okay with you?
    Abe Forsythe: yeah
    Eos Amaterasu: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Eos Amaterasu: We're having a "theme session" today, on "facilitation"

    Calvino Rabeni: About paradox in practice - is the topic we were on.
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of a paradox often assumes people are very limited in time and space.
    Calvino Rabeni: And knowledge, as if, were you to emphasize one principle it would interfere with another
    Calvino Rabeni: Like an athlete runner thinking - hey I run, so I can't sleep.
    Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't make sense, because he can do both!
    Calvino Rabeni: Likewise with openness - sometimes open, sometimes structured
    Calvino Rabeni: Or sometimes both at once.
    Calvino Rabeni: At first, with practice, "one at a time" helps for learning.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that is more about letting people focus on learning
    Calvino Rabeni: rather than about what is possible.
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, Pema, welcome
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pema
    Calvino Rabeni: I liked what you said earlier, Eos, about the facilitator kind of risking
    Pema Pera: Calvino, Eos is trying to IM the session chat so far -- bear with us
    Calvino Rabeni: OK thx
    Pema Pera: ah, no reason to send it, Eos!
    Pema Pera: I just clicked on the temp place of the listener
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, some risk is necessary cause the facilitator comes with an intention
    Pema Pera: which you sent me -- it's all there already!!
    Eos Amaterasu: and has to be willing to risk that intention
    Pema Pera: so please go on and I'll catch up
    Calvino Rabeni: And to be transparent
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Storm
    Calvino Rabeni: Not completely, but to a greater degree
    Storm Nordwind whispers "Hi everybody"
    Pema Pera: Hi Storm, and hi Arch
    Calvino Rabeni: Arch, Storm
    Eos Amaterasu: In a way to hear each other the members of the group need to do the same
    Eos Amaterasu: and then that opens the possibility of "we seeing"
    Eos Amaterasu: not "group think" :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght, that is a derogative I suppose
    Calvino Rabeni: I have two viewpoints, one from being, and one that is topical
    Eos Amaterasu: topical re that intention we were talking about?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think a combination is good, because "states of consciousness" are ephmeral
    Calvino Rabeni: Perspectives on facilitation that can help orient
    Eos Amaterasu: One perspective is that to facilitate is to hold an open container
    Calvino Rabeni: Kind of like Sun Tzu said about the art of war. In a nutshell, know yourself, know your opponent. I'm not likening facilitation to war, but the principle holds of seeing both sides




    Eos Amaterasu: One of the things we do in PaB sessions is to hold / stop / drop / share space / 90 secs together
    Archmage Atlantis: Are we not at war? Is there not a side that seeks to destro? and another that seeks to preserve?
    Eos Amaterasu: If it's correct to say that a group holding a group openness is what is facilitated
    Calvino Rabeni: Well it is a metaphor that can lead to certain understandings
    Eos Amaterasu: then we have the very seed of that in a very literal way.
    Archmage Atlantis: Even inside ourselves?
    Calvino Rabeni: May I present some topical perspectives?
    Eos Amaterasu: Sure
    Calvino Rabeni: They move from external to internal
    Calvino Rabeni: Some perspectives in facilitation Organizational - Facilitation has something to do with leadership, and something to do with power. - Much study of facilitation is in the context of organizations, their needs, and the consultants who serve organizations. - Facilitation is regarded as a mode or skill of leadership. Coaching - Facilitation applied to the needs of individuals in the context of their normal affairs, such as life planning, professionalism. There is a growing industry in each of these areas. For links some links, see http://delicious.com/ca1vino/facilitation
    Calvino Rabeni: Those are "external" perspectives.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm actually more intersted in some internal perspectives
    Calvino Rabeni: I think PaB kind of predisposes one to internal.
    Calvino Rabeni: So I would add the following:
    Calvino Rabeni: To an extent, both of these perspectives assume what I call the "cult of the expert" - the idea that facilitation is a specialist skill, like accounting or operating heavy machinery. I want to advocate for more "internal", more personal, more "peer-oriented" perspectives on facilitation: Co-Facilitation - Create one-on-one relationships in which you learn to help each other in a systematic way, with personal issues and goals. Self-Facilitation - Do you have internalized authoritarianism? Do you tell yourself what to do, and then feel pulls in many directions? If it doesn't work so well in the real world, why should it work inside you? - There are many independent "voices" and needs/desires/objectives within an "individual". Why would it work for one stronger piece of "ego" to take control and expect the others to obey "its" commands? - There are also many people working with "voices", a kind of internal facilitation.
    Calvino Rabeni: A principle - Skills of "internal" facilitation are partly transferable to the other facilitation contexts. - People who can relate skillfully and compassionately to their inner "voices" and shadow material are likely to be more capable when other people carry those same perspectives.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Calvino Rabeni: (I have a note card with that text - I don't actualy type like mad)
    Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi stevenaia
    Calvino Rabeni: Good day, steve
    Eos Amaterasu: Perhaps we can open the floor, so to speak?
    Calvino Rabeni: My concern I suppose, is bridging the internal and external perspectives
    Eos Amaterasu: I actually was going to object to characterizing PaB as being concerned with the internal
    Calvino Rabeni: I see it as requiring some awareness practice to create the openness, along with some specific concepts about what to do with it in the world.
    Archmage Atlantis: Bad metaphor for me *g*, falling on the floor is something I try to prevent due to physical limitations *g*
    Eos Amaterasu: PaB can help bridge that .... contradiction?.... divide....
    Eos Amaterasu: in which case Applied PaB is a non-issue :-
    Calvino Rabeni: Openness plus structure - the "dreaded paradox"
    Eos Amaterasu: It's like the container we are in
    Eos Amaterasu: structure and lots of openness

    Storm Nordwind: Have you been considering transparency (rather than openness) in facilitation at all?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: a bit
    Pema Pera: yes, Eos, the whole notion of "Being" and hence the direction of "Play as Being" is to go beyond opposites such as internal and extrenal
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Storm Nordwind: The reason I ask about transparency is that I find it's hard to get greater cooperation without it.
    Calvino Rabeni: My early training was Zazen in a martial arts dojo - I suppose that openness and structure were well-mixed in that school
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't find the paradox very disturbing
    Eos Amaterasu: can u say more about "transparency", Storm?

    Meanwhile Archmage throws in the periodic riff...

    Archmage Atlantis: Pema, there are those who judge......to be more open is to invite their judgement
    Pema Pera: hi Hotaru!
    Eos Amaterasu: Come jump in our pool, Hotaru!
    Hotaru Myoo: hi Pema
    Hotaru Myoo: ty!
    Hotaru Myoo: I just might
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: ty for no snow
    Hotaru Myoo: aww
    Hotaru Myoo: I come with snow

    Storm Nordwind: I find that facilitation is not the act of a single person and that the wider group needs to be involved - a kind of group meta-negotation. Without transparency on the part of the person supposed to be facilitator, about their motives (for example), there is no buyin and the project is obstructed at best
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes really
    Calvino Rabeni: the facilitator has to demonstrate the workability of openness
    Calvino Rabeni: A real world example, teaching buddhist awareness techniques at a military base
    Calvino Rabeni: where most of the soldiers are fundamentalist christian
    Hotaru Myoo: obvoiusly
    Calvino Rabeni: they are quick to judge
    Calvino Rabeni: but also,motivated




    Calvino Rabeni: in that case some cultural sensitivity is important
    Hotaru Myoo: aww
    Hotaru Myoo: I am moved by the christian perspective
    Hotaru Myoo: but I always aquiesce to the moment
    Hotaru Myoo: sp*]
    Pema Pera: there is also the question whether anything like facilitation has to be developed, or whether it would be a natural by-product of something else, in case it might be more effective to just focus on the something else -- awareness, compassion, appreciation . . . . so far we seem to assume that there is something that needs to be "done" in some way, are we sure that is actually correct?
    Hotaru Myoo: b/c it is the moment that moves us
    Hotaru Myoo: not really
    Calvino Rabeni: In some ways, people are like an ocean liner - where they can go now, depends on what they started some time ago.
    Hotaru Myoo: nothing needs to be done

    Storm Nordwind: My experience with facilitation is that it works best when people feel they are all involved in it themselves. This comes from both an individual and group awareness, and a certain level of compassion.
    Storm Nordwind: Thus there seems to be no one person people can point to as facilitator

    Calvino Rabeni: it is pretty fluid
    Pema Pera: like "resting in ease" might be enough, if enough of us really try to do that ("ease = facile => facilitation as a group)
    Hotaru Myoo: nothing needs to be done
    Calvino Rabeni: Earlier I stated the paradigm of "facilitator as leader" as a kind of oxymoron
    Calvino Rabeni: In other words, I agree storm
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Hotaru Myoo: it is already happening
    Eos Amaterasu: including our stirring of the soup
    Calvino Rabeni: Resting at ease does not typically seem to shake people out of habits of being "on automatic"
    Pema Pera: there's where the 9 sec comes in!
    Calvino Rabeni: Unless someone is quite alert to the new energy that emerges
    Calvino Rabeni: and sponsors it to come out
    Pema Pera: stir, wait, stir again
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, rather taoist
    Hotaru Myoo: always stirring
    Pema Pera: or trust others to let it come out
    Storm Nordwind: And breathe the aroma while waiting!
    Hotaru Myoo: but
    Calvino Rabeni: Drop Don't Stop
    Hotaru Myoo: what is at the bottom of the pot?
    Eos Amaterasu: this is not turtle soup
    Calvino Rabeni: Can only speculate
    Calvino Rabeni: Normally it is bottomless
    Hotaru Myoo: hmmm
    Hotaru Myoo: but is it
    Hotaru Myoo: haha
    Calvino Rabeni: It's like the bottomless cup of coffee in american diners :)
    Hotaru Myoo: no it isn't
    Storm Nordwind: Yeah - you can have as much as you like, but it's all ghastly!

    Pema Pera: I have this strange trust in PaB, resting on the combination of 9-sec breaks as the low-level daily practice and the notion of Being as the high-level vision, and the play connecting the two, as being enough, without needing any specific extra "action" other than just a kind of administration (like wiki work, guardian schedules, scribe organization, etc)
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, you can go to better establishments, storm :)

    Pema Pera: perhaps it is enough to do the dishes, and leave the cooking to the Universe?
    Hotaru Myoo: Pema...that is such a buy-out
    Calvino Rabeni: That is an important perspective and experiment for some to have, Pema
    Calvino Rabeni: Of course, there are lots of people in the world who think in lots of different ways

    Archmage Atlantis: Perception vs buyout, interesting

    Pema Pera: let me clarify: I mean no need for pre-meditated and organized "action" -- spontaneous action on the spot may be enough
    Pema Pera: I'm not advocating total inaction

    Calvino Rabeni: A facilitator must be somewhat of a chameleon , or very adaptable

    Pema Pera: wu-wei is what I mean
    Storm Nordwind: Simply being sensitive at the time to what is needed. Seeing what is in the process of becoming.
    Hotaru Myoo: explain?
    Calvino Rabeni: Wu Wei is following the condition of what exists - including any structure
    Pema Pera: and wu-wei grows not from analyzing notions like facilitation, but from appreciation and awareness
    Hotaru Myoo: uh uh
    Hotaru Myoo: no
    Pema Pera: "wu-wei" is literally "not-doing" meaning not forcefully intervening
    Hotaru Myoo: being trumped makes you move
    Hotaru Myoo: in some other direction

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, "forcefully" means, imposing something contrary to what is already there
    Hotaru Myoo: abstructing the structure
    Calvino Rabeni: But you are a creator of what is already thre
    Calvino Rabeni: The creating happens now, and in the past
    Hotaru Myoo: so what?

    Eos Amaterasu: which means any doing is possible

    Pema Pera: we've talked about facilator as a person or as a group, but how about a no-self picture, in which there are no selves, no persons as such, just wu-wei? facilitation as just appearing?
    Pema Pera: without a you there!
    Calvino Rabeni: That would be dualistic in a sense.
    Hotaru Myoo: hmm
    Paradise Tennant: :) is hmmm too
    Hotaru Myoo: but how can that happen without buyin

    Storm Nordwind: On an individual level Pema, that would appear possible, even easy. But what about working with a group, where levels of trust and insight may vary widely?

    Eos Amaterasu: "Does Being need us to facilitate it?" may not be the right question

    Calvino Rabeni: I agree Pema, but it is not the whole picture in my opinion

    Pema Pera: Storm, it is a matter of sowing seeds and seeing what grows

    Calvino Rabeni: Facilitation is our way to go along with being

    Hotaru Myoo: yes, but
    Hotaru Myoo: whose seeds?

    Pema Pera: whether the group will grow into it is an open question, an experiment, an adventure
    Hotaru Myoo: and what grows?
    Calvino Rabeni: Storms point is well taken
    Pema Pera: seeds: anyone exploring wu-wei
    Eos Amaterasu: ideally you find the seeds... right now!
    Pema Pera: grows: the group moving to more and more wu-wei
    Calvino Rabeni: Cultivation
    Calvino Rabeni: requires time
    Pema Pera: 9-sec breaks are also good seeds
    Hotaru Myoo: yes,
    Pema Pera: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: and the 90 secs is such a seed
    Hotaru Myoo: of course
    Hotaru Myoo: that is the buy-in
    Hotaru Myoo: ahh
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, in a sense, what you "plant" in the 9-sec will grow later
    Hotaru Myoo: perhaps

    Eos Amaterasu: gateless gate
    Pema Pera: Being needs no help, ultimately -- THAT is wu-wei




    Hotaru Myoo: but that requires the ego to dissolve
    Storm Nordwind: The seed is a biased metaphor, as two different plants cannot grow from the same type of seed. But in this circumstance they could.

    Hotaru Myoo: yes
    Hotaru Myoo: given the same sod
    Hotaru Myoo: the same fruit
    Hotaru Myoo: the same love
    Hotaru Myoo: perhaps

    Pema Pera: Being needs no help, but can and will express its help through us -- but not by us planning to help Being beforehand, rather by us creating the space, stepping aside, letting Being express itself while celebrating that expression.
    Calvino Rabeni: Facilitation is chop-wood-carry-water
    Archmage Atlantis: To be, or not to be, that is the question, whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or by opposing end them
    Hotaru Myoo: but what about the universals?
    Eos Amaterasu: "rather by us creating the space" : that is what takes form :-)

    Pema Pera: and from the outside it may seem as if we are becoming very good facilitators, while we actually become more like children . . . .
    Calvino Rabeni: Can't chop against the grain

    Paradise Tennant: being is the "as is" view ... the whole.. in a way .. backing out the self .. lets you really see it ..

    Calvino Rabeni: Sure Pema
    Hotaru Myoo: that assumes no patterns in the universe
    Calvino Rabeni: And there is form along with the formless
    Paradise Tennant: but so very hard to do ..
    Hotaru Myoo: no widely universal norms
    Pema Pera: actually one pattern is my work calling me back, sorry, 1 pm here after lunch
    Hotaru Myoo: that affecxt al of us
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for joining, Pema
    Pema Pera: (yes, very hard, but the 9-sec breaks are relentness, training us!)
    Paradise Tennant: :) waves at pema .. enjoy your day..
    Hotaru Myoo: see!!!!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye pema
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Hotaru Myoo: tada!
    Pema Pera: thanks for organizing these sessions, Calvino and Eos -- much food for thought!
    Hotaru Myoo: matane
    Calvino Rabeni: YVW
    Pema Pera: bfn, hehe Hotaru!
    Calvino Rabeni: Pema is a champion of the "void" side of things
    Hotaru Myoo: kma
    Eos Amaterasu: He would deny that
    Paradise Tennant: hmm not sure it is a void as much as base
    Calvino Rabeni: And it is a principle of PaB
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Pema deserves appreciation
    Hotaru Myoo: hehe
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes he does
    Hotaru Myoo: awww
    Calvino Rabeni: Standing up for the occluded awareness
    Hotaru Myoo: c'mon
    Paradise Tennant: :) cal
    Storm Nordwind: Standing up for the non-dual
    Hotaru Myoo: I love him like myself...but c'mon
    Calvino Rabeni: Of course, someone should give him a hard time :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe we could out-source it.
    Hotaru Myoo: haha

    Eos Amaterasu: Hypothesis: it is sufficient to inject 9-secs or 90-secs gaps into an organization's being-time to significantly affect it

    Hotaru Myoo: ok
    Eos Amaterasu: that in a way is the claim of applied PaB?
    Storm Nordwind: Evidence to support the hypothesis?
    Eos Amaterasu: doug?
    doug Sosa: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: It is the concept Eos, not the application, that matters here
    Calvino Rabeni: Disagree, perhaps - concepts live in the world
    Calvino Rabeni: and are its creature
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: concepts also shape the world
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    doug Sosa: and the world shapes concepts too?
    Calvino Rabeni: But they do not have to limit it
    Paradise Tennant: the world is really kind of shifty .. when you get right down to it !
    Calvino Rabeni: Right
    doug Sosa: shifty world, shifty concepts. good dance.
    Eos Amaterasu: it swivels its hips
    Eos Amaterasu: it swivels and bops
    Calvino Rabeni: Be bops
    Eos Amaterasu: the play part is the wilingness to play with form

    Eos Amaterasu: to wei
    Eos Amaterasu: not just to wu

    Hotaru Myoo: of course it is
    Eos Amaterasu: and to play with dropping
    Calvino Rabeni: So, the invitation is - to take on facilitation without stepping into the control fantasy
    Hotaru Myoo: pfft
    Eos Amaterasu: but to "hold space": heh heh
    Eos Amaterasu: just like this pavilion holds space
    Storm Nordwind: But is open to all comers
    Eos Amaterasu: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Some think that would be enough, to hold space
    Archmage Atlantis: Dorothy did the last good dropping I remember, *g*
    Hotaru Myoo nods
    Eos Amaterasu: can you hold space without form?
    Paradise Tennant: control fantasy is a lovely term
    Calvino Rabeni: And when the meditation is over, then what?
    Storm Nordwind: Yes, Eos. You clear it of clutter!
    Hotaru Myoo: then there is peace\\
    Calvino Rabeni: It is back to "form city", unless your group is enlightened
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Paradise Tennant: which is here right now
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Reality as we understand it, it comes back Cal
    doug Sosa: ut there is lots of clutter here too, and it is ok.
    Hotaru Myoo: mmmm...let there be peace
    doug Sosa: so it is seing whatever it is with a a calmer engagement. not denial, not neediness.
    Calvino Rabeni: When it comes back, you need to have "stories" or things that are in an enlightened view, fiction
    Eos Amaterasu: how you describe the seeing
    Eos Amaterasu: PaB is not blind
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a shift in the feeling of stories, can be important in the world
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the story of "the economy"
    Calvino Rabeni: It won't go Poof
    Calvino Rabeni: But it may seem different as time goes on
    Calvino Rabeni: If Doug's desire comes towards fruition
    Calvino Rabeni: Keep it up :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Suggestion for next 90 secs: what is the story?
    Calvino Rabeni: :) 




    Eos Amaterasu: Wow!
    Eos Amaterasu: This was great - first time in this session, a 90 secs all held by all
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Hotaru Myoo: awww

    Archmage Atlantis: This is an old thought poem
    Archmage Atlantis: I have shared it before
    Archmage Atlantis: It is still my answer
    Archmage Atlantis:
    Ziggarat Clarity as Insanity 
    The ziggarat is built it stands in the world of dreams 
    The past is brought forward 
    To guide the future 
    All gods and Gods are called home 
    All the female force is gathered 
    The birthing shall begin a new creation
    Hotaru Myoo: wow
    Hotaru Myoo: thank you

    doug Sosa: the story to me starts here in this strange place, eight people gather, hearts beating, thoughts congealing or vaporizing..
    Calvino Rabeni: Usually the female force is so spread around, it is unusual to think if it gathered into a potent mass
    Calvino Rabeni: yin becomes yang
    Hotaru Myoo: a wonderful perspective
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, I had a very strong sense of the 8 people here
    doug Sosa: I had a teaher once, said "when in doubt, feed them."
    Paradise Tennant: :) yes .. amazing how prescence is felt .. how we perceived attention .. proximity regardless of the medium
    Hotaru Myoo: ^^;

    Calvino Rabeni: be a good host
    Calvino Rabeni: think with stomach not head
    Calvino Rabeni: empty head, full belly, or something like that
    Hotaru Myoo: hehe
    Storm Nordwind: Do we project ourselves into a common space? Or do we sense and locate the others in our own space? Or something else entirely?
    Hotaru Myoo: if you are lucky enough
    Eos Amaterasu: hard to tell, isn't it?
    doug Sosa: isn't a mix of those?
    Calvino Rabeni: Something slightly else, I guess
    Calvino Rabeni: we create the space by reaching out to others doing the same
    Paradise Tennant: :) well ..I think it is our occluded awareness .. at full tilt :)

    doug Sosa: Pure stsates of mind seem to me to be the most dangerous.
    Calvino Rabeni: Paradise what is occluded?
    Storm Nordwind runs and hides from the doug's danger!
    Eos Amaterasu: thank goodnes they're transitory, doug
    Paradise Tennant: the ability to know an object is there when it is blocked by another object
    Paradise Tennant: babies have it
    Calvino Rabeni: right, they are self canceling
    Paradise Tennant: makes us more evolved
    Calvino Rabeni: light without dark is the dangerous thing
    Storm Nordwind: We can know objects inferentially though
    Calvino Rabeni: as we generally / always do

    Eos Amaterasu: in a way we can never be totally sure..... which means we're either in humor or in paranoia

    Archmage Atlantis: the moment is passed, I go to dance......thank you all for your kindness

    doug Sosa: then we face the inferencer - ourself. object and knower are co-determined.
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh there I go again, universalizing. :)

    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao, arch
    Paradise Tennant: waves at arch :) enjoy the dance
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Hotaru Myoo: we are
    Hotaru Myoo: waves back

    doug Sosa: 9 sec in the middle of a political discussion today. Saw that
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    Paradise Tennant: I think the progress we will make if we persist in this practise is understanding .. better the "whole" the big picture ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye steve
    doug Sosa: the repubs and dems will struggle into this next election over who has power, but
    Paradise Tennant: nite steve :)
    doug Sosa: there is no discussion of what to do with it.
    Calvino Rabeni: That is power as an abstraction
    Calvino Rabeni: Sad
    doug Sosa: I don't think it is abstract at all. very visceral.
    Storm Nordwind: Please excuse me. I need to go. And for those with an acute eye, the ice on the pond is slowly melting! ;)
    doug Sosa: "this place is open to all", but it is not. there are many real
    Eos Amaterasu: concentrically
    Paradise Tennant: waves at storm :)
    Paradise Tennant: looks hard at the ice :)
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    Calvino Rabeni: C U , storm
    Eos Amaterasu: ~~




    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    doug Sosa: barriers to being here.I love noticing the ice. thanks.
    Hotaru Myoo: _/ <3 |-

    Storm Nordwind: It will take another 40 hours or so Paradise
    Calvino Rabeni: SL's best obi flies now
    Paradise Tennant: wow hotaru .. that is cool :)
    Hotaru Myoo: nite all!
    doug Sosa: i recognize that dance.
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite
    Eos Amaterasu: appreciate the presence of Hotaru :-)


    Eos Amaterasu: power is a kind of energy or stance, frozen into identity
    Eos Amaterasu: the medium has become the message
    Eos Amaterasu: the rigidity of holding
    Eos Amaterasu: and totally forgetting the space
    Eos Amaterasu: no "mother" (Eos' mind is addled by "Avatar")
    Calvino Rabeni: Power may be used well
    doug Sosa: avatar was intense.
    Paradise Tennant: did you see the film eos
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, digital 3D
    Paradise Tennant: I want too have not had a chance
    Paradise Tennant: wow
    Calvino Rabeni: What was the intensity Doug?
    doug Sosa: No power, the body cannot stand. no poer society does not cohere.
    Calvino Rabeni: Structure is your friend
    Calvino Rabeni: gravity, friction too
    Eos Amaterasu: space is invisible without form
    doug Sosa: The beauty of the people, thier primitiveness, the tech of the film, the edginess of political themes.
    Calvino Rabeni: the rigidity of your bones, something you depend on at every moment
    Paradise Tennant: is happy she has a skeletal structure ..does make life easier :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Re facilitation, and seeing it as hosting, part of it is holding the space in a literal way: the container in which people are meeting
    Eos Amaterasu: renting it
    Eos Amaterasu: arranging it
    Eos Amaterasu: serving it over the time period of the group getting together
    Paradise Tennant: :) thank you .. tonight was very lively .. I will scurry out in the cold with the dog .. _ smiling :) happy I was part of this shared space ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: generosity of lending being to create the container
    doug Sosa: I must say
    Eos Amaterasu: be para
    Eos Amaterasu: bye
    doug Sosa: i like sitting with the three of you.
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    doug Sosa: bye.
    Eos Amaterasu: ^_^
    Paradise Tennant: big wave from a very frosty toronto :)
    doug Sosa: female company is good.
    Eos Amaterasu: "the world moves on a woman's hips" (Talking Heads)

    doug Sosa: Dare i take a minute to tell you what is on my mind?
    Eos Amaterasu: Sure

    doug Sosa: OK. we are on a trian careening across a landsape that we can hardly see, but for those with eyes and hearts, there are people out there not doing well, and the train is falling apart, but we can't stop because most of the people on the train are fed and nourished by its speed. if the train were to stop or slow, they would die, yet the train continues to disintegrate. What to do? Write poems?

    Eos Amaterasu: go down with the ship
    Eos Amaterasu: the train being nourished by its speed is a suicidal proposition, utlimately
    doug Sosa: i take that as well considered opinion.
    Calvino Rabeni: It is an exaggerated metaphor - although partly true




    Eos Amaterasu: Avatar is an example of taking advantage of the speed, wealth of the train to illuminate the train
    Calvino Rabeni: Seems to be two possibilities - die, or arrange for softer landing
    doug Sosa: also well considered.
    Calvino Rabeni: Speed is an omnipresent psychological motif
    Calvino Rabeni: Slowing the train down is not an impossibility
    doug Sosa: the slower the fewer people it feeds, unless we get really smart.
    Calvino Rabeni: there is a lot of headroom with efficiency
    Calvino Rabeni: lots of waste
    Eos Amaterasu: that's questionable though, isn't it, doug?
    doug Sosa: which eos?
    Eos Amaterasu: from today's framing we say we need more and more speed
    Calvino Rabeni: that is the constructed myth
    doug Sosa: and?
    Eos Amaterasu: slowing down could feed more
    doug Sosa: how?
    Calvino Rabeni: the economic-growth myth
    Eos Amaterasu: grow locally
    Eos Amaterasu: takes more time
    Eos Amaterasu: is less efficient
    Eos Amaterasu: is much richer
    Calvino Rabeni: not necessarily less efficient
    Eos Amaterasu: generates wealth of goods and of time
    doug Sosa: yes, but as we see, in much of the world that looks like a narrowing possibility.
    Calvino Rabeni: when oil is expensive the distribution economies will change a lot
    Eos Amaterasu: beacaue we've ripped it away from that rest of the world
    doug Sosa: Yes, but increasing the price willl fall harder on poorer people.
    Eos Amaterasu: food aid calls for faster farming in develeoped countries, and destroys farming in undeveloped
    doug Sosa: yes, deeply agree.
    Calvino Rabeni: see, most of the thinking on this issue is predicated on the idea that we must maintain our present system and rate at all costs
    Calvino Rabeni: that is non-negotiable in the usual dialogue
    Eos Amaterasu: two things I see: 1) basic mythologies of majority of people need to grow, deepen
    doug Sosa: which we know is not working. lsow suicide getting faster. but how to slow, how to help the weaker. how to prevent lots of violence?
    Eos Amaterasu: 2) that's not enough: there is much power concentrated in a very few people
    Eos Amaterasu: those have to be moved, or allowed to self-destruct
    Calvino Rabeni: How, doug?
    Calvino Rabeni: What are the proposals?
    doug Sosa: yes, but letting up on the structure would probably rupture it. this is a delicate operation.
    Calvino Rabeni: What is the evidence for that idea?
    Eos Amaterasu: for example, the pseudo financial system needs to be allowed to self-destruct
    Calvino Rabeni: It sounds like the "ego of the economy"
    Eos Amaterasu: without taking dow the "real" wealth generation systems with it
    doug Sosa: there really are not many proposals. local are the most obvious. tech fixes only aim to maintain the speed.
    Eos Amaterasu: speed limits
    Calvino Rabeni: How many versions of localism are there?
    doug Sosa: i think we can look at revolutions, civil wars, when old strucutres fallaway, the increased entropy leads to violence.

    Eos Amaterasu: localism is also in time, as well as in space

    doug Sosa: Still supposition, though worthy.

    Eos Amaterasu: PaB helps with resting with increased entropy :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Economic and social activists get scared, paranoid.
    Calvino Rabeni: What are they doing to counter that?
    doug Sosa: Yes, PaB really helps
    Eos Amaterasu: but then how do you scale up PaB?
    Eos Amaterasu: 9 sec pauses during newscasts?

    doug Sosa: to the extent that activists sacre the train owners and staf, they are in danger.
    Calvino Rabeni: They scare themselve silly

    doug Sosa: on scaling 9 sec. i noticed it the last week when people said "happy new year"..
    Eos Amaterasu: (I will have to depart after next bell : 1 am here...)
    doug Sosa: they seemed to have a different tone, more 'we need a happy new year", or even deeper, more aware of our mutual compassion, not so flip.
    Calvino Rabeni: The PaB pause is a way of dropping the fear
    Eos Amaterasu: sounds good, doug
    Calvino Rabeni: but there are many ways of doing that
    Calvino Rabeni: and they all have value
    Calvino Rabeni: It is important to sense what is in the wind like that, doug
    doug Sosa: eos and cal, thanks for the discussion.
    Calvino Rabeni: glad you came
    doug Sosa: me too. night ..
    Eos Amaterasu: facilitation and applied PaB (as in PaB and sustainability) intersect, for sure
    Calvino Rabeni: I was eating some of doug's "economic" corn chips
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Tasting the "economy" in them
    doug Sosa: i like to not use applied pab. i think the issues show up in any old Pab. not special
    doug Sosa: rules or focus necessary.

    Eos Amaterasu: APaB (A=applied) is just a meta-statemnet, that PaB is not separate from this world

    Calvino Rabeni: Is that a proposed rule, doug, of "no rules" :)
    doug Sosa: the economy is in any Pab setting, and if we don't notice it, repression.
    Calvino Rabeni: I need to talk to you about this, Doug. Soon / another time.
    Eos Amaterasu: this is the nightcap coming up




    doug Sosa: and you both have neen great listeners as i've struggled with this.
    doug Sosa: poof.
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Calvino!
    Eos Amaterasu: Thanks for this!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Eos
    Calvino Rabeni: YW, same to you :)
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