2010.01.19 13:00 - Deception is the best policy?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

    Is this session we ended up talking about a topic that did not seem at first to be directly related to Play as Being. Nevetheless there was an interchange of a wide spectrum of ideas and views.

    Note: I have edited out the hellos and goodbyes, including references to a newcomer who never gave permission for their name or words to be published. I hope that helps the flow of reading.

    --BELL--
    Storm Nordwind: So I have taken over being the regular host for this session
    Storm Nordwind: I'm not sure who normally turns up

    Several people arrive but we sit in silence for quite a while.
    Storm Nordwind: Now we just need a topic!
    Storm Nordwind: Anything pressing on anyone's mind?

    More silence - which is wonderful. I receive a private message saying, "Up to you I guess :)" so I venture a suggestion about different environments for our discussions. And Calvino mentions a difference he feels would have a significant effect.
    Storm Nordwind: Well as some of you may have seen on email, the new village pub is ready. It's more snug there than here. I wonder if the discussions there will therefore take on a different character than this more open place.
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps if there's no log script at the pub :)
    Zon Quar: lol
    Storm Nordwind: very true!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Storm Nordwind: You mean you're more guarded Calvino when you're being recorded?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I think that happens for most avatars, If I'm not mistaken
    --BELL--
    Fael Illyar: Yes... it's a permenent record and the world still has plenty of people who might look at you askance for something you said 10 years ago.
    Storm Nordwind: I wonder why that's any different though. Any ideas?
    SophiaSharon Larnia picturing someone looking at me askance :)
    Bertram Jacobus: the first chancellor of germany once said : i'm absolutely not interested in my gossip from yesterday ! ... ;o)
    Fael interjects a call for comments on the new calendar recently installed on the Wiki and embedded in the guardian schedule page.
    Fael Illyar: (Anyone have any ideas/comments/nitpicks/anything at all to say about the calendar I embedded on the wiki?)
    Storm Nordwind: Maybe they don't want their comments to be recorded Fael! ;)
    Fael Illyar: (IM works too)
    Calvino Rabeni: Why yes Fael, now that you mention it.. the calendar is perfect in every way I can see
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh... yes I like the calendar, now that I have overcome a few hurdles like "fear of my non-techie fingers messing things up"
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i'm so laggy right now, Eliza's hair is still in the air
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Calvino Rabeni: And I learned to embed google calendars in my other pages - thanks !
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brb!
    Eliza Madrigal: You are a pulsing cloud, Sharon
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh... and now poofed cloud
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Storm Nordwind: It's the Diet Coke Eliza
    Agatha Macbeth: Yaku is doing an impersonation of Jesus! :p
    Storm Nordwind: You mean he's going to feed us all Agatha? ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i dunno why that happens
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah... is he in the fountain?
    Agatha Macbeth: Don't bite yer nails Yaku ;-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a pulsing cloud Eliza, thats a nice way to put it :P
    Eliza Madrigal grins...
    Eliza Madrigal tries to put things nicely


    SophiaSharon returns the conversation to our nascent topic. What would happen if we were less guarded about what we said?

    SophiaSharon Larnia: yea, me too, I wondered today what would happen if i just said what i thought all the time
    Eliza Madrigal: funny question Sharon...
    Zon Quar: u would loose many friends..
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol
    Storm Nordwind: Well perhaps the friends you had left would be really worth having!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: right?
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Zon Quar: no one left..

    I raise an aspect of this. What about more intimate communication? What works well there? The responses are varied and outspoken.
    Storm Nordwind: How about between a close relationship, like spouses? Would such honesty and openness be a good thing?
    Zon Quar: no
    Storm Nordwind: Can you say more Zon?
    Zon Quar: u must always be dilpomatic
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, would like to think so... honesty with manners though
    Zon Quar: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: nods
    Zon Quar: manners
    Storm Nordwind: To me diplomacy would be a separate issue, as would be manners. Can't you be open and honest and still be very sensitive and polite?
    Fael Illyar: I do find honesty and manners to often be an either/or choice :)
    Zon Quar: manners mean think what u say
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, sensitive and polite is what I would mean by manners

    I throw out a summary of my own (and my wife's) attitude to this, as applied to marriage in general, and ask for reactions.
    Storm Nordwind: So I'm guessing that my recipe (at least in part) for a happy marriage is not one everyone would agree with then: "no lies, no secrets"
    Zon Quar: is there a happy marriage ?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind: Sure is!
    Calvino Rabeni: Good luck with that, Storm :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Fael Illyar: Storm, if you truly have a marriage that can survive that. You're very lucky man :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I think there is something about going into it like that, in the first place
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: survive honesty, and no secrets?
    Fael Illyar: yes, if you want a marriage that can survive that, you better stick to that as much as possible :)
    Fael Illyar: the fastest way to find out who can't handle it

    Zon seems to be skeptical and finds both agreement and disagreement to his view.
    Zon Quar: honesty....total openness to the other....i find that not very...realistic
    Mickorod Renard: well, I think some people work on the basis they can transgress by secrecy,,then , honesty is dificult
    Zon Quar: u shoulst try to be honest to urself first...and that is very hard to do
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Mickorod Renard: honesty should be the first principal
    Zon Quar: yes ..honesty towards ur self

    Fox arrives and Eliza comments that the two of us are newlyweds, though not to each other!! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Another newly married guardian! :)
    Fox Monacular: :) yes
    Fox Monacular: who else?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, Storm still qualifies as a honeymooner.. ?

    Back to the discussion. I ask Zon to describe his view a little further.
    Storm Nordwind: So why Zon do you find that are total honesty and openness not realistic?
    Zon Quar: cause u r urself
    Zon Quar: not the other
    Zon Quar: to be responsible
    arabella Ella: i tend to agree with Zon too
    Storm Nordwind: Can you explain further Zon?
    Zon Quar: u cannot throw things to the other
    Zon Quar: but must consider
    Zon Quar: what she/he
    Zon Quar: understands
    Mickorod Renard: I think there are times in rellationships that suggest that tact is a good option,,and brutal honnesty can wait for a more appropriate time
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, there is tact and timing, Mick
    Eliza Madrigal: I think it is very difficult when people enter into marriage and then change ... value systems maybe, etc ...
    Mickorod Renard: but ther is no use living a lie
    Eliza Madrigal nods

    At several times in this discussion, now and later, I thought about bringing up other related and equally provocative questions, such whether or not couples who are not open and honest with each other are best staying together at all. Perhaps another time or, more likely, another place. So we continue...
    Zon Quar: first u must know the truth
    Zon Quar: to be able to lie
    Mickorod Renard: yes, so there is deception
    Zon Quar: marriage is communication as other relationships

    But how best to show you care? Do you withhold the truth? Or do you lovingly share it? What works best long term?
    arabella Ella: there may be times when you may not wish to hurt the other person with the truth ... like being protective
    arabella Ella: and others when you may need some space too
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Mickorod Renard: yes, the failure of many marriages is that due to communication breakdown
    Storm Nordwind: How long do you wait until you realize that hiding the truth from them is also hurting in the long run?
    Mickorod Renard: I would guess when u realise that there is to be no recovery
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hurting both of you, actually

    And what of trust?
    Zon Quar: what is honesty in communication...to try to convey ur feelings as they are
    Mickorod Renard: thats ok when there is a two way dialogue,Zon
    Zon Quar: but u must filter ur negative feelings
    Zon Quar: is that honest ?
    Storm Nordwind: negative feelings about the other person?
    Mickorod Renard: the other partner should be able to be trusted to accept your feelings i wud have thought
    Mickorod Renard: and act proactively
    Storm Nordwind nods to Mick
    SophiaSharon Larnia: when i said i wondered what would happen if I said what i thought, I didn't mean just negative things :)

    arabella raises an important point. Can forgetfulness hurt? Would it still hurt if motives were fully known? (This is very relevant to my own marriage because both of us are very forgetful!)
    arabella Ella: one example i can think of is related to forgetting
    arabella Ella: if you forget something connected to your significant other ...
    arabella Ella: you may not wish to hurt them by admitting to have forgotten something important for example
    Storm Nordwind: Why would they be hurt by a lapse of memory? They still know you have their best interests at heart don't they?
    arabella Ella: like forgetting a birthday, an anniversary, a like or a dislike
    arabella Ella: something important for the significant other
    arabella Ella: which you are not expected to forget
    Fael Illyar: Storm, there are people who, at least, act hurt when such happens.
    Storm Nordwind: I know Fael. Perhaps we can find out why.

    Eliza uses a wonderfully graphic turn of phrase to put things in perspective!
    Eliza Madrigal: but those are just hair on the soap issues....
    arabella Ella: or a meeting for that matter
    Agatha Macbeth: EWWWWWWWWWW!!!!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: LOL
    Eliza Madrigal: by the time you get there, there are other things wrong, imo
    Mickorod Renard: well, I dont think attachements like that aere worth ruining a relationship over
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    --BELL--
    Agatha Macbeth: shudders
    Eliza Madrigal giggles, but I phrase it like that because when people are wrapped up with one another, the little things are not a big deal... they impose good will and romanticize things...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: true
    SophiaSharon Larnia: took the hair on the soap comment abstractly, in thinking of little problems - as the hair, and the big ones - as the soap ;p
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Eliza Madrigal: but if there are underlying things, then I think forgetting an event becomes a huge deal :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes, but you draw the line *somwhere*!
    Mickorod Renard: some can spend a lifetime giving flowers and love,,and its still not enough
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... well yes you do say something!
    Eliza Madrigal: true, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: and bone of contentions
    Fael Illyar: people fight over hairs when they can't fight over the soap.
    Mickorod Renard: like who's right,,,toilet seat up or toilet seat down?
    Zon Quar: small things reveal big things
    Agatha Macbeth: I'll have the soap, you have the hair
    Eliza Madrigal: marriages are also organisms... can involve lots of layers of responsibilities to many people ... so maybe business skills are needed too?

    As a result, a little light-heartedness breaks out!
    Eliza Madrigal: Should I go? :)
    Zon Quar: lol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: noo lol
    Eliza Madrigal: You don't like me anymore... am I talking too much Ag? haha :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Eh?
    Zon Quar: be honest
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I can take it
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind: No we want to keep you guessing Eliza and waste your time and energy! :)
    Mickorod Renard: I like u Eliza,,u make me hear bells when you are near
    SophiaSharon Larnia grabs Eliza shoes and yelps 'Don't go!'
    Eliza Madrigal: hahhaha

    Zon and Calvino bring the topic back...
    Zon Quar: let me suggest this: be honest but not stupid
    Calvino Rabeni: A prototype "don't be honest" example is - "honey, I have a fantasy of having an affair with so-and-so at the office.. but I would never actually do it, you know that don't you?"
    Eliza Madrigal: Aw shucks... Oh... agree there Zon

    ...and arabella suggests an example, though she gets no takers.
    arabella Ella: another example storm which comes to mind ... what if your partner gives you a present you hate ... like a horrible jumper or whatever ... do you honestly say you dont like it?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,to some thats imposible Zon
    Storm Nordwind: yes ara, because she would expect me to
    Eliza Madrigal: yes ara, or you get one every year
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes Ara,,I wud say
    Zon Quar: yes thatisi impossible..like life itself..lol
    Storm Nordwind: Why would I waste her time with an illusion of what I like? She might base a lot of expenditure of effort on that. That wouldn't be caring of me, and she'd want me to say
    arabella Ella: if i knew the other person went to a lot of expense and effort i would not wish to hurt their feelings if i cared for them

    We could have had a whole other debate on arabella's last comment. But the group was energized and, as often happens in those circumstance, before I finished typing my reply, the discussion had moved on so I left it unsaid!
    Eliza Madrigal: the thing is, small dishonesties accumulate and slip out.. complex
    Mickorod Renard: I think that is true of the relationship ,,if there are lots of small lies, they wiegh it down in the end
    Fael Illyar: perhaps the answer is... no absolute answer. Ask which the partner would prefer.
    Eliza Madrigal: but I agree generally... it isn't necessary to say "everything that passes through one's mind"
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Fael
    Storm Nordwind: it would be a boring and blank conversation Eliza if I did that, certainly
    Eliza Madrigal smiles at Storm...

    Zon cites an intriguing example - which I, perhaps unexpectedly, turn round the other way in response.
    Zon Quar: if u walk on the street with ur wife and honestly see a very appealing woman..is it honest not to tell ur wife ur emotional interest ?
    Calvino Rabeni: If partners agree on the level of lying, I think it causes no friction between them
    Fael Illyar: practical impossibility to say everything on your mind... have to choose and pick.
    Mickorod Renard: I am an obvious give away when I see an attractive woman,,but that is cos I refuse to be made to hide my feelings
    Mickorod Renard: just as if i see a nice anything else
    Storm Nordwind: In a similar way, Zon, my wife tells me of the women who are interested in me! (She takes it as a compliment!)
    Zon Quar: or supportive..lol
    Calvino Rabeni: That might work presuming you have no insecurities
    Eliza Madrigal: that's actually very nice, Storm...
    Calvino Rabeni: A survey might indicate that is pretty rare though
    Eliza Madrigal: and shows her confidence/security with herself perhaps
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Cal
    Storm Nordwind: When one is open and honest, Cal, insecurities can be encouraged to dissolve

    Not a point anyone takes up. Meanwhile, Calvino suggests a radical policy, perhaps taking on the responsibility for other people's feelings. I wonder how serious he was! ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: so lying might be a good policy for the insecure masses of most people
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Eliza Madrigal: When I was young,I thought possesiveness was a great compliment
    Mickorod Renard: I think lying is a reflection of the insecure state many feel they live in
    Eliza Madrigal: that's one of those things that when you are older you shudder at
    Storm Nordwind nods to Eliza

    Zon's skepticism is now expressed in a humorous way, and we all join in the fun.
    Zon Quar: have u ever recorded those thougths that go throurg ur mind daily ? if id tell those outloud id be locked in
    arabella Ella: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ahahha
    Agatha Macbeth: Or locked up :)
    Calvino Rabeni: You could still enjoy it a bit, Eliza, the possessiveness :)
    Storm Nordwind: We already know them Zon - we're telepathic - and we still like your being here!
    Mickorod Renard: I have wondered about that Zon,,,I thought about it and decided I would be like as if I had turetts syndrome
    Eliza Madrigal: only on momentary occassions... ;-)
    --BELL--
    Fael Illyar: we're are all telepathic... now if I'd just know which thought is mine and which is yours ;)
    Zon Quar: no wonder u look at me smiling starngly...
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol
    Storm Nordwind: The clean ones are yours Fael
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Agatha Macbeth: They are?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :o
    Mickorod Renard: sorry Zon, i didnt mean to stare
    Zon Quar: no..iv used to tha on busses too

    The discussion about openness and honesty is nearly over. We return briefly to wondering about another workshop.
    Mickorod Renard: any idea whats happened to dream workshop?
    Agatha Macbeth: It woke up?
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: There must have been confusion...
    Eliza Madrigal: since the time was changed, we all prob forgot :)
    Mickorod Renard: there still is on my part
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... there there
    Calvino Rabeni: I thought it was at 1, but no one was there
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, that's the plan Cal
    Mickorod Renard: max didnt show anyway,,as for as i can tell
    Agatha Macbeth: :p
    arabella Ella: maybe your Homework was to dream at 1pm today?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, when schedules change there can be a few bumps
    Mickorod Renard: who's gaurdian this session?
    Eliza Madrigal: dreaming alot lately Mick?
    Storm Nordwind: I am Mick
    Mickorod Renard: some yes,,but none i can reveal
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Zon Quar: cmon, be honest
    Calvino Rabeni: Same here :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe in the Pub? :)
    Zon Quar: lol
    Zon Quar: no recording

    Mick makes a final and interesting comment on topic, but at the mention of "Pub" it seems everyone's thoughts are now elsewhere!
    Mickorod Renard: thats a point,,I have found that not saying is like a lying person is still trying not to lie
    Mickorod Renard: if that makes sense

    Now the topic is definitely done, so we decide to adjourn to the local hostelry.
    Storm Nordwind: And the pub's plot is voice isolated
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what does that meam Storm?
    arabella Ella: its really lovely Storm thanks and well done for the five bells!
    Storm Nordwind: Thank you ara!
    Calvino Rabeni: So, who is for going to the pub and recounting x-rated dreams?
    arabella Ella: not a bad idea Calvino
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Storm Nordwind: Sharon, it means that voice chat on the pub plot cannot be heard outside the plot (and vice versa)
    Eliza Madrigal will just wander outside watering the flowers and pretending not to listen
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok ty
    Storm Nordwind: Thank you Eliza. You get the job of gardener!
    arabella Ella: r u sure ... about the honestly part?
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: how many have fitted in the pub here Stoerm?
    Storm Nordwind: There are seats for 10
    Mickorod Renard: nice
    Eliza Madrigal changes tag
    Storm Nordwind: plus two extra chairs at the chess table
    Fael Illyar: 10 of us here :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Which pub is this?
    Fael Illyar: oh wait 11
    Storm Nordwind: .
    Eliza Madrigal is wearing her dart gun
    Storm Nordwind: The Five Bells
    Mickorod Renard: we cud all go there now
    Fael Illyar: best cound myself too :)
    arabella Ella: The Five Bells
    Agatha Macbeth: But Eliza left already :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol Fael
    Storm Nordwind laughs
    arabella Ella: name of pub
    Agatha Macbeth: What a load of bells
    Storm Nordwind groans
    Storm Nordwind: It's 150 metres due north of here
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh
    Eliza Madrigal reminds Agatha about the dart gun
    Agatha Macbeth: Dart gun?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes for jokes about the sacred bells
    Agatha Macbeth: You mean those things Pygmies use?
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Storm Nordwind: Five Bells village pub http://slurl.com/secondlife/bieup/71/192/100/
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh no, that's a blowpipe
    Agatha Macbeth: Aha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: XD
    Fael Illyar: ok, shall we move there?
    Agatha Macbeth: Looks like Fox went to bed anyway
    Eliza Madrigal: She comes here to get a break
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind: We could tiptoe away quietly
    Agatha Macbeth: Ahhhh
    Mickorod Renard: I am interested if we can all get in,,and it be comfortable
    Eliza Madrigal can't tip toe quietly... too many bells...
    Storm Nordwind: Yes that would be an interesting test
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol at all getting in, like a clown car
    Storm Nordwind: Shall we go?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    Agatha Macbeth: What about lag?
    Calvino Rabeni: sure I will go
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,lets go,,get the drinks lined up Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Only one way to find out
    Eliza Madrigal: hhaahh @ Sharon re clown car
    Fael Illyar: lag can follow us if it wants to :P
    SophiaSharon Larnia: snears at lag
    arabella Ella: ok let's all go there then
    arabella Ella: c u there bye everyone
    Storm Nordwind: This way

    And I walk over to the Five Bells, where we had a houseful.

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