2010.01.24 19:00 - Comfort and Drama

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    What follows is, in my opinion, an interesting and chaotic, even confusing, session which contained a number of powerful ideas worth a seminar or at least a theme session.  Things went in different directions at once, and the resulting creative tensions were only handled through multiple applications of the secret "onogokko" practice.

    And this became one of those sessions I wish were commented independently by each of the participants. I believe it would look quite different from each viewpoint.  Were there world, and time enough...


    The meeting guardian, that would be myself, starts things out as a bad example by being stuck on a phone call for the first few minutes of the session.  Then as luck would have it, Eliza shows up with a guest.

    Calvino Rabeni: good evening
    Flux Constantine: hi
    Bleu Oleander: hi
    TH Ordinary: hi!
    Bleu Oleander: a quiet evening here tonight?
    Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza
    TH Ordinary: hi Eliza
    Calvino Rabeni: :) i have rl call - will have more attn soon
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Calvino, Bleu, TH....
    Eliza Madrigal: have made a new friend.... one sec... tp-ing him
    Calvino Rabeni: hi eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, and Hi Flux too
    Flux Constantine: hi
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Benedizone :)
    TH Ordinary: hi Benedizone
    Eliza Madrigal: So everyone, this is a new friend Sitar...
    Bleu Oleander: hi Sitar
    TH Ordinary: hi Sitarr
    Sitar Ishelwood: hi team!
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Do we have a topic tonight?
    Bleu Oleander: not yet
    Benedizione Vita: hello everyone
    Calvino Rabeni: The floor is open to proposals for that :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Benedizione
    Benedizione proposes a notion to contemplate - playing as NOT being?  Eliza seems to pick it up, while for me the idea misfired - I read it wrong.  I was not sure if it was meant to be an interesting reversal to "Play As Being" or a look at not being a "being", or the notion that playing blocked awareness of Being.  To be, or not to be... is that the question?
    Benedizione Vita: I propose playing as not being as the topic
    Eliza Madrigal: Fascinating Topic, Bene :)
    TH Ordinary: what is that?
    Calvino Rabeni: mmm, something more serious then?
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I reparsed
    Sitar Ishelwood: work as play?

    Eliza Madrigal: Work as play is excellent, too
    Benedizione frames his question systematically:
    Benedizione Vita: play as not being is: consider, for a moment, the possibility that you are exactly what you think you are
    Benedizione Vita: this is actually probably not immediately clear, or maybe immediately not clear, but sometimes it is hard to say exactly what we think we are
    Benedizione Vita: so one might begin with entertaining the notion that one is, for example, simply a collection of atoms, or an isolated ego, or whatever starting point seems natural
    TH Ordinary: do you think there is a self?
    Calvino Rabeni: hmm, that might be a little entertaining, Bene
    Benedizione Vita: TH, not only is there a self, but that is exactly what I am
    Benedizione Vita: I am a self, and I sit here in opposition to the whole world
    Benedizione Vita: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: But the usual complex story has more drama to it
    Although I appreciated Bene's formulation of the topic, I picked up the "play" part, more than the "not being" part (valid as it seems), perhaps hoping to elicit something more definite from Bene.
    Benedizione Vita: then let us play, calvino, and may the muses whisper sweet nothings into our ears
    The "not being" idea seems itself very dramatic.
    Calvino Rabeni: You have a dramatic opposition - self vs world
    Benedizione Vita: yes, I struggle very hard, me this self
    Benedizione Vita: the world is very cruel to me
    Calvino Rabeni: That is a heroic beginning
    I was unsure whether the following was an expression of a personal experience, or a philosophical hypothetic.
    Benedizione Vita: no matter how hard I try, I never seem to be able to ground myself in any larger purpose or sense of meeting
    Benedizione Vita: I feel so contained
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyone else feel that way?
    Eliza Madrigal: Contained?
    Calvino Rabeni: Contained , separate
    Calvino Rabeni: The world is in this container, I am in that
    Calvino Rabeni: Or the other way around
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, sure there are times... not too often I must admit, these days...
    Whether 'tis nobler in the mind, to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...
    Sitar Ishelwood: why is there struggle?
    Sitar Ishelwood: i only struggle when i believe something isnt as it should be
    Sitar Ishelwood: which certainly happens alot
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, can we catch a struggle in the act?
    Calvino Rabeni: What struggle happened recently?
    Sitar Ishelwood: and trace it back to a belief?
    Eliza Madrigal: The word purpose placess unecessary pressure sometimes, too....
    Calvino Rabeni: What is the basis for assuming it is unnecessary?
    Eliza Madrigal: That we have an idea in our heads of what it means to feel a sense of purpose...
    Eliza Madrigal: which drains energy
    Eliza Madrigal: and then undermines the work we may be engaged in... bringing purpose TO?
    Calvino Rabeni: As contrasted with - what happens with the energy instead?
    Sitar Ishelwood: right, the concept limits the flow
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, what is there
    Calvino Rabeni: But in nature, things need pressure, and pressure is what happens when flow encounters resistance
    Eliza Madrigal: each of us may 'struggle' in different ways though... sure
    ...or to take up arms against a sea of troubles:
    Calvino Rabeni: So keep on fighting, that is life
    Eliza Madrigal: hm
    Benedizione Vita: here here!
    Benedizione Vita: let us fight
    Sitar Ishelwood: yes, even resistance has its own arc
    Benedizione Vita: let us struggle
    Eliza Madrigal doesn't think of it that way... but remembers liking a good fight song years ago....
    Sitar Ishelwood: if we enjoy it, do it
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Sitar Ishelwood: i prefer less struggle than more, but thats just me
    Calvino Rabeni: What if it was thrilling and fulfilling to struggle, would you like it then?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes where would doing without doing fit into this... isn't 'play', that, amidst work, etc
    Calvino Rabeni: Some struggles are worth it
    Calvino Rabeni: some aren't
    Sitar Ishelwood: i enjoy the occasional, meaningful struggle
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    I think there's still some confusion about the topic.  (Maybe that's the sign of a good topic.)
    Benedizione Vita: remember, we are "playing as not being"
    Sitar Ishelwood: i still dont get that topic
    Eliza Madrigal: Struggle to let go perhaps
    Benedizione Vita: of course, you don't have to if you don't want to :)
    Eliza Madrigal: like maybe I have to struggle not to be?
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Benedizione Vita: well, the idea is playing as being playing as not being
    Eliza Madrigal: okay, will be cooperative :)
    When in doubt, stir things up just a little bit, and see what shakes out.   
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, I will not Be, when I am dead.
    Calvino Rabeni: I am a pile of atoms - endowed by my creator with infinite aspirations and desires
    Flux Constantine: they say people in the bardo don't realize they are dead
    Benedizione Vita: maybe we are all already dead
    Benedizione Vita: what would that mean?
    Calvino Rabeni: I heard a master storyteller yesterday - his story was about that idea
    Calvino Rabeni: We are already dead, and don't know it - was the creepy idea of that story :)
    Sitar Ishelwood: oh who cares about that
    Sitar Ishelwood: whats the difference
    Eliza Madrigal: Its actually not that creepy I think....
    Calvino Rabeni: Not that creepy - actually it feels familiar
    Eliza Madrigal: Well doesn't it touch on dreaming within dreaming?
    Benedizione stirs the pot also, in a more physical manner.  "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout".
    Benedizione Vita: onigokko
    Eliza Madrigal: And waking within waking...
    Benedizione Vita: stop
    Sitar Ishelwood: if i am acatepillar dreaming im a butterfly, or a butterly dreaming im a catepillar
    Sitar Ishelwood: at the end of the day, i still need to clean the litterbox
    Eliza Madrigal wonders why she didn't onigokko....
    Flux Constantine: if you weren't afraid of dying, you wouldn't be afraid of a messy litterbox
    Sitar Ishelwood: im not afraid of a messy litterbox. I just love my cat.
    Benedizione Vita: your cat is already dead, silly
    Sitar Ishelwood: well, then where does all the poop come from?
    Calvino Rabeni: so in what way are we already dead?
    Eliza, left out of the last round, restarts the mad running in circles.
    Eliza Madrigal: onigokko
    Benedizione Vita: ahahahaha
    Eliza Madrigal: stop
    Calvino Rabeni: I never actually seem to catch Eliza, no matter how I run :)
    One sign of a good question - chaos and energy... Bene, you said it:
    Benedizione Vita: my my, the "play has not being" suggestion has produced so much chaotic energy, it seems :)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Sitar Ishelwood: uh oh!
    Eliza Madrigal has lots of practice
    Benedizione Vita: one day you will catch her, calvino
    Benedizione Vita: she will trip over a pixel
    Eliza Madrigal: especially in these shoes
    Sitar Ishelwood: to answer the question, in what way am i dead...
    Calvino Rabeni: So how many here would like less drama in life? Or is it more?
    Calvino Rabeni: Listens
    Flux Constantine: I want to be surprised :)
    I liked the following insight, and in an alternate reality I would have followed up on it.
    Sitar Ishelwood: the parts of myself that i cannot accept, may as well be dead
    Calvino Rabeni: nice
    Eliza Madrigal cannot answer that question, honestly... but I think I agree with Flux on this one...
    Eliza Madrigal: onigokko
    Calvino Rabeni: as an example, not as a good situation
    Eliza Madrigal: stop
    Bleu Oleander: that's a goldilocks kind of thing ..... want drama that's just right
    Calvino Rabeni: when was your last surprise, flux?
    Benedizione Vita: who wants the drama?
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni raises hand to vote for drama
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Bleu
    Benedizione gives his thesis another try...
    Benedizione Vita: right, but what I mean is, who wants it calvino? what is it that wants?
    Calvino Rabeni: tell me
    Sitar Ishelwood: my drama level is acceptable at present
    ... but it doesn't catch on.  The play's the thing.
    Eliza Madrigal looks at Bene suspiciously... starts the onigokko but doesn't play....
    Calvino Rabeni: bene finds it dramatic to do that :)
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    Benedizione Vita: I am a very suspicious person, eliza ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: Instigator
    Calvino Rabeni: I've seen it happen numerous times heh heh :)
    Another good question:
    Sitar Ishelwood: can we get a definition of drama
    Bleu Oleander: oh i see, who is it that thinks if wants or doesn't want drama
    Caught in the act - an "evil" laugh, then an acknowledgment.
    Benedizione Vita: muahahaha
    Benedizione Vita: precisely, bleu :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Defining drama takes the fun out of it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But people know it when they see it, some say
    Eliza highlights the diversity of understanding, efficiently, in comic book fashion.
    Eliza Madrigal sees a thought bubble over each av head, with a different picture
    Sitar Ishelwood: aye, ill give you that

    Benedizione Vita: drama is what people call the things in their life they claim not to want but can't do without ;)
    Defining "drama".
    Calvino Rabeni: Funny roles, lots at stake, juicy relations, places to go, things to do
    Sitar Ishelwood: and therefore have to blame on others?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, I have had dramatic things I liked also
    Calvino Rabeni: More than ones I didn't care for
    Eliza Madrigal: I call those adventures :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice, dramatic adventures :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Two followup ideas emerge at once.  The maddening thing about PaB is you can't follow them all up, much as they might deserve it.
    Sitar Ishelwood: to bring it back, adventure, has purpose
    Calvino Rabeni: So how did "drama" get to be a dirty word?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Sitar Ishelwood: people started to live like the people they saw on tv?
    Sitar Ishelwood: on daytime dramas?
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe "drama" got to be a dirty word, the same way the "comfort" got to be a dirty word
    Calvino Rabeni: As they are now seen somewhat as opposites
    Calvino Rabeni: And kind of degraded by not being organically related?
    Calvino Rabeni: Just an idea
    Bleu Oleander: didn't know drama or comfort were dirty words
    Eliza Madrigal: :))

    Eliza simulates tone of voice to good effect I think:
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting... yes full circle... but what of dropping purposes/goals/agendas... then surprises can play.. drama without draaaama ...
    Benedizione Vita: idea, now there is a duuurty word
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, remember Lila and Shakti and those energetic cosmic wenches
    Calvino Rabeni: Still with us I presume :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Remember when playing got out of hand, as a child, and things would sometimes get broken?
    Sitar Ishelwood: remember, they are here in bed with me?!?
    Calvino Rabeni: Part of the play - was playing the edge
    Calvino Rabeni: And perhaps going too far
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Benedizione Vita: calvino, now youve gone too far!
    A new visitor shows up in the middle of everything.  Eliza and I handle the greetings and the formalities.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Soujanya
    soujanya Indigo: hope Im not interrupting a meeting htere
    Sitar Ishelwood: oh, goddess, please bring some sanity!
    Eliza Madrigal: We're here four times a day, Soujanya... and love visitors :)
    soujanya Indigo: lol
    soujanya Indigo: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: We chat here, soujanya, and actually can be interrupted any time :)
    soujanya Indigo: thank u eliza
    soujanya Indigo: for the welcome
    Sitar Ishelwood: we are discussing the purpose of drama and the comfort of struggle
    Sitar Ishelwood: anything to add?
    Benedizione Vita: so how did you find us, soujanya, I am curious :)
    soujanya Indigo: I think I have been here
    soujanya Indigo: sometime back
    soujanya Indigo: and someone invited me
    soujanya Indigo: I felt it was a peaceful place
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    I like it that Bene likes to do the following, which seems rather mischevious:
    Benedizione Vita: onigokko
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing to know, is that the converstation here is recorded,
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes it can be....
    soujanya Indigo: lol
    Benedizione Vita: stop
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Benedizione Vita: hahaha sorry I couldn't resist :)
    soujanya Indigo: :D
    Calvino Rabeni: and put on the web site. Is it OK with all here for the chat to be published?
    soujanya Indigo: yea sure
    Sitar Ishelwood: yup
    Bleu Oleander: k
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, thanks.
    TH Ordinary: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: Because if necessary I can censor it :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I need to turn in... quite sleepy.....
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for dropping in Eliza
    Bleu Oleander: me too
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone, for a lively evening
    Benedizione Vita: good to see you eliza :)
    Bleu Oleander: c u
    TH Ordinary: thanks for conversation
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now. Night :)
    soujanya Indigo: take care people
    I liked the following attempt at reflection, regardless that it was not taken up.
    Benedizione Vita: any reflections on the chaos, anyone?
    Well yes, Bene, I have had a chance to reflect some, while writing up the log comments.  I think it hit on several themes that are archetypal, and, at least for me, somewhat subterranean.  What were your reflections?
    Sitar Ishelwood: yes, this has been fun, I suppose that I will turn in as well
    Sitar Ishelwood: thanks
    Benedizione Vita: goodnight, sitar :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good to meet you Sitar
    Benedizione Vita: sleep well
    Sitar Ishelwood: till next time
    Benedizione Vita: well, I s'pose I must also in turn soon
    Benedizione Vita: goodnight calvino and flux
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Bene
    Calvino Rabeni: benedictions upon you :)
    Benedizione Vita: and upon you and yours, sir
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks
    Calvino Rabeni: the more things change, the more they stay the same... or is it the other way around...

    Calvino Rabeni: And that's the fifth bell... this Goldilocks is off to find new sources of porridge.
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Flux.
    Flux Constantine: l8rz

    And that's all they wrote ... but, dear readers, this is a wiki, and I'd like to invite anyone who has any impulse, to add comments in the text or in the comment area.

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    Originally written on 12:46, 25 Jan 2010
    DEFINITELY a log that benefits from host insights! :)
    Posted 13:56, 9 Apr 2010
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