2010.01.26 01:00 - Time, Space, Knowledge ... Beer

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.


    Fael Illyar: Hi Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Fael !

    Fael Illyar hops around you like a bunny.
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: well, what seems to be interesting today?
    Fael Illyar: meeping :)
    Calvino Rabeni: can I find that in wikipedia?
    Fael Illyar: don't think so :)
    Fael Illyar: Meep Meep
    Calvino Rabeni: well it seems a bit verb-y...
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps like a bird might do
    Calvino Rabeni: While running?
    Fael Illyar: or flying? :)
    I find one possible source of "meeping" in classic "Road Runner" cartoons, and send Fael the link by IM.  Then we address a recent name proposal - "Bier" -  for the Five Bells Pub's new feline mascot.
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a bubbly beverage suitable for use in pubs - also a kind of pun on the word "to be", which might be a good name for a mascot in such an establishment
    Fael Illyar laughs 'I was wondering if someone would bring it up.'

    Fael Illyar: it would be kind of interesting and inappropriate in a way. Even if also kind of quite on topic :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Please feel free to topic-ize as appropriate :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it a fine metaphor :)
    Fael Illyar: kind of :P
    Calvino Rabeni: So, the energy kind of stirs deep within the body of the liquid
    Calvino Rabeni: Continually rising bubbles
    Calvino Rabeni: Eventually they reach the surface - in great number
    Calvino Rabeni: which isn't a surface at all, it is continually breaking and reforming
    Calvino Rabeni: the bubble breaks - a tiny globe of the liquid may be flung into the air
    Calvino Rabeni: flying up and away in a graceful trajectory
    Calvino Rabeni: some escaping all together, others slowly falling back to the surface and rejoining
    Calvino Rabeni: there perhaps to be energized again
    Calvino Rabeni: releasing small, complex sounds
    Calvino Rabeni: that have a chaotic nature but a soothing regularity
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a complex and dramatic world
    Fael Illyar: you've been paying attention :D
    Calvino Rabeni: for young eyes to behold
    Calvino Rabeni: and time seems fluid, it extends, stands still, with little bits of eternity
    Calvino Rabeni: and reassuringly, returns to the glass
    Fael Illyar: meepernity! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: If I imagine being the size of a mite (mate) how immense those explosions
    Fael Illyar: Yes, quite immense :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and the eyes and mind of a child - my impression is of quick fluidity - many things happen simultaneously, within the purview of a moment, all making a significant impression
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Calvino Rabeni: everything seeming interesting, seen for the first time, with a sense of surprise

    Calvino Rabeni: and centered around this activity, a group of people gather for mysterious additional reasons
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Definitely.'
    Calvino Rabeni: they must know something - and yet, they do not need to speak
    Calvino Rabeni: one can only trust, they have some history and commonality of fraternity
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps it is the call that nature has used, to summon all manner of creatures to gather near a water hole :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And to this, all else is footnote :)
    Fael Illyar: yes, I guess so.
    Fael Illyar: It's kind of interesting that some dogs like it too
    Fael Illyar: the dog we had once drank a bit too much of it a couple of times
    Calvino Rabeni: Well a couple of times won't a habit make
    Calvino Rabeni: I think nearly everything is worth trying 2 to 3 times.
    Fael Illyar: could be :)
    Fael Illyar: yet, can't try everything. Not enough time for it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Luckily there is imagination for that.
    Fael Illyar: takes time to imagine too :)
    Calvino Rabeni: time and attention
    Fael Illyar: yep
    Fael Illyar: it's slow business, this imagining :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe it's like a library of people all reading their books at once
    Calvino Rabeni: Parallel processing
    Calvino Rabeni: I've noticed, it's possible to have a dream, while waiting at a traffic signal
    Fael Illyar: yep, not at all unusual for me.
    Fael Illyar: While I lived in Helsinki, I used to have those every time I was on the tram
    Calvino Rabeni: Another metaphor, the quantum computer bits that are in multiple states at once
    Fael Illyar: of course, one explanation of life overall is that it is someone/something trying everything at once :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Fael Illyar: and being everything/everyone
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: in the time workshop I was suggesting, when picking up a new book, to understand it as if having already read it

    Calvino Rabeni: And someone said - yes - I understand that method - odd as it seems
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Calvino Rabeni: The "flow" experience seems about more than just flexibility and fluidity
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: it seems about this "everything at once"experiencing
    Fael Illyar: precisely :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the thing that "sequential time" contradicts
    Calvino Rabeni: Time being an artificial sequentialization, from the perspective of nature, and not entirely necessary for the perspective of an individual person
    Fael Illyar: yes :)
    Fael Illyar: you have already read the book, on some level, if you get your hands on it.
    Calvino Rabeni: It has a lot to do with identification and having some flexibility there
    Calvino Rabeni: When I was in college, I set myself the task to find ways to increase the number of books I could "read" beyond any artificial limit
    Calvino Rabeni: given that I wanted to learn
    Calvino Rabeni: and inspired by a story
    Calvino Rabeni: and lots of techniques seemed to emerge to extend that limit
    Calvino Rabeni: all pretty much variations of awareness of subject and object
    Calvino Rabeni: the story was, a man who knew he had only 2 years left in which he could read
    Calvino Rabeni: and he wanted to know virtually everything
    Fael Illyar: yep :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The beer story earlier was a recount of my first encounter with beer, going to a pub with my father
    Calvino Rabeni: but it stands in for a reminder of intense awareness

    Calvino Rabeni: Do you watch the television with action scenes and so forth?
    Fael Illyar: I don't watch television. A movie very occasionally.
    Calvino Rabeni: I have no television, but there is internet video
    Fael Illyar: it's been 2 years now that I haven't even watched internet video
    Fael Illyar: except for very short clips that I get links for from friends
    Fael Illyar: and the occasional documentary films and such
    Calvino Rabeni: do you have a policy... media fasting... kind of like being a vegetarian?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that would make some sense
    Fael Illyar: no conscious policy
    Calvino Rabeni: I have no idea what other people see in the action scenes
    Calvino Rabeni: For me it is a little like the cartoon drawings of a fight - a dusty spinning ball with maybe an arm or a leg protruding
    Calvino Rabeni: "stuff happens" all very indiscriminately, and eventually one body flies out and hits the ground and comes to rest.
    Calvino Rabeni: So I wonder how others see it, whether the forms are more clear
    Calvino Rabeni: And the portrayal doesn't easily provide an impression of the actual event, experienced first person
    Fael Illyar: at least if it's martial arts, the battles are very much designed I remember reading.
    Calvino Rabeni: They are choreographed I believe, as you say
    Fael Illyar: pieces of art in themselves. There is a message in them. That too is kind of communication.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I had a teacher who was able to see every nuance and move in a boxing match, even when it was fast
    Calvino Rabeni: I was not able to do that
    Calvino Rabeni: but, it seems accessible to those who want the experience
    Fael Illyar: it takes practise to be able to see perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, with practice. Like learning to play piano or something
    Calvino Rabeni: I saw something I liked recently - a man told stories while playing a drum with two hands
    Calvino Rabeni: and they were good stories, his awareness was on the audience also
    Calvino Rabeni: and after he asked them if they had any questions about the stories
    Fael Illyar: have you read a book with an action scene from the point of view of one of the people involved?
    Calvino Rabeni: Kind of, I didn't act it out physically, but that would be fun
    Calvino Rabeni: The audience said - nice story , BUT
    Calvino Rabeni: how did you learn to play the drum and talk at the same time?
    Calvino Rabeni: They found the performance experience interesting, and he told them exactly how, in detail
    Calvino Rabeni: Which I thought refreshing.
    Fael Illyar: yes?

    Calvino Rabeni: Ok, well he invented his method of learning it, by taking it apart and putting it back together. First he learned the drumming, letting it become something he could do with leftover attention, then he found a poem to read, a simple rhythmic one with a rhyme structure
    Calvino Rabeni: And he could do those 2 things together, with extra attention left over, so he started varying the inflections and rhythm of the tone and pitch and rhythm of the poem
    Calvino Rabeni: (kind of like dancing Tango - you learn the moves, then you vary the timing with syncopation)
    Calvino Rabeni: SO then he could improvise the familiar poem while drumming, and moved on to stories instead
    Calvino Rabeni: It took practice of course, but was systematic and step-by-step
    Fael Illyar: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but no one told him how to do it, nor did he decide it sounded difficult
    Calvino Rabeni: Just deconstruction with awareness, then putting it back together
    Fael Illyar: yep, it didn't matter to him if it was possible or not. He wanted to know
    Calvino Rabeni: And had some faith in the process of finding out
    Fael Illyar: yes, he believed it worthwhile to do it whether or not he could.
    Calvino Rabeni: And to do some wayfinding through not-knowing
    Fael Illyar: yes... the things you can do when you don't know you can't :P
    Calvino Rabeni: Reminds me of Pema's description of trying to understand the TSK book, with a metaphor of groping in the fog until things become clearer
    Calvino Rabeni: But I think that's a big reason people's worlds close down around them
    Calvino Rabeni: they proceed only along pre-known pathway
    Fael Illyar: yes, precisely
    Calvino Rabeni: whereas those pathways could branch and diverge off track of the known
    Fael Illyar: no more exploration
    Calvino Rabeni: and down some of those unknown paths, lie new worlds and skills
    Calvino Rabeni: as in the bard's phrase - imagination bodies forth the forms of things unknown
    Calvino Rabeni: (if I remember correctly)
    Calvino Rabeni: The nice thing about that being the embodiment part of it
    Calvino Rabeni: as in, you have to walk the path - kind of commit to it entirely
    Calvino Rabeni: not just as a conceptual projection
    Calvino Rabeni: Although I don't mean to disparage conceptual projections in general
    Calvino Rabeni: There's also something "geeky" about this way of relating to experience and language
    Calvino Rabeni: So for people who work with software technologies, there are many languages
    Fael Illyar: geeky?
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean a modern technical mind-set, for lack of a better word
    Fael Illyar: the world is full of languages :=
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Fael Illyar: so would geeky then mean someone specializing in communicating? :P

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the world seems about many languages, ones own, other "natural" languages, artificial languages, maybe behavioral patterns that are have pattern and structure
    Fael Illyar: I'm starting to regard everything as a language in some way :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Well it's interesting to speculate the particular biases of communication introduced through that culture, but yes, a stronger communication aspect, with maybe some additional limitations
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I know what you mean
    Calvino Rabeni: From a technical perspective, the languages go beyond being "merely descriptive" to have a clear performative effect
    Calvino Rabeni: Of course they always did,but the mechanization spells it out
    Calvino Rabeni: You build things with language, then they take on a life of their own
    Fael Illyar: yep :)
    Calvino Rabeni: All the patterns used in software, the incredible inventiveness and flexibility, I would say already occurs somewhere in nature, in the sense you were describing of "everything as a language in some way"
    Fael Illyar: yes, all patterns already exist somewhere, somehow.
    Fael Illyar: and we're creating new bigger patterns from combining the old ones.
    Fael Illyar: smaller ones
    Calvino Rabeni: scary, it rattles faith in a rational cosmos :)
    Fael Illyar: what we are is patterns that managed to keep themselves going, even if changing while doing so.
    Calvino Rabeni: autopoeisis
    Fael Illyar: certain parts and/or aspects of our overall pattern stays the same though
    Calvino Rabeni: what do you notice about those fixed points?
    Calvino Rabeni: archetypal patterns and structures?
    Calvino Rabeni: Looked at functionally, there are archetypal patterns common to most entities, alive and otherwise
    Calvino Rabeni: In terms of the structure of their body-form physically
    Calvino Rabeni: but, did you have something in mind about the parts that stay the same?
    Fael Illyar: well... that's the part I'm not so clear about.

    Fael Illyar: some aspects/parts do seem to be important but end up not being really necessary
    Fael Illyar: plus, I count mind as a pattern too.
    Calvino Rabeni: yes that is radical, but I agree with that
    Fael Illyar: different kind of pattern but pattern all the same
    Calvino Rabeni: lather - rinse - repeat
    Calvino Rabeni: for many, I gather, "mind" seems more like a substance, than a pattern
    Calvino Rabeni: like "stuff"
    Fael Illyar: mind is the pattern that's most obviously in a flux
    Fael Illyar: changing all the time.
    Fael Illyar: and many appear scared if that and try to make it not change.
    Calvino Rabeni: That I don't quite understand - unless the pattern of the activity of asserting an illusion of control is one of the defining aspects of that kind of "mind"
    Calvino Rabeni: As in - "I am, that I try not to change"
    Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to objectify - if that were even well defined in theory - but sure, there's this constant jockeying around change and boundaries
    Calvino Rabeni: the dance there, in a sense, defines the self
    Calvino Rabeni: and lots of it happens in a kind of vague shadowy fringe zone
    Fael Illyar: any thought that defined yourself as doing something or not doing something causes that.
    Calvino Rabeni: some philosopher down at Thotica called it the Penumbra, which I thought nicely poetic
    Calvino Rabeni: Well it seems nearly all that we do is quite ill-defined
    Fael Illyar: or being something/not being something.
    Calvino Rabeni: all kind of permeable or porous
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, for some reason this suggested to me to explore the structure of your avatar's "aura"
    Calvino Rabeni: and it appears to be circular in structure, and actually, to overlap my own avatar's aura
    Fael Illyar: aura?
    Calvino Rabeni: so that's kind of cozy :) although I did not notice it at first.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it can be probed by watching the cursor change doing the "object detect"
    Calvino Rabeni: In your case it is mostly transparent
    Fael Illyar: oh, I get it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but there is a zone between the auras that look like open space but in which the cursor does not detect space, but object
    Calvino Rabeni: It is an invisible boundary to the avatar object
    Fael Illyar: try pressing ctrl-alt-t :)
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght, that makes it visible
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be weird if that could be done with real people's vague boundaries
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Calvino Rabeni: but I believe they aren't actually well-defined
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe radically so
    Calvino Rabeni: As in the philosophical issue of locating an "idea"
    Calvino Rabeni: Or the seat somehow, of intelligence, mind, or consciousness
    Fael Illyar: well defined or not, I'd be surprised if they were even stable :)
    Calvino Rabeni: right, not stable

    Calvino Rabeni: I heard someone had "about 20" objects in their SL inventory
    Calvino Rabeni: And you being a big builder, persumably have orders of magnitude more
    Calvino Rabeni: personally I have the in-between magnitude of 2474 items
    Fael Illyar: reminds me that it's about time that I get going. RL meeting soon.
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, good talking to you Fael.
    Fael Illyar: Thank you for the conversation Cal :)
    Fael Illyar: Have fun :)
    Calvino Rabeni: You too. :)
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