2010.01.27 01:00 - A joyful session

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

        Calvino Rabeni: Hello Bolonath
        Bolonath Crystal: namaste cal :)
        Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
        Bolonath Crystal: how r u ?
        Calvino Rabeni: Life is good.
        Bolonath Crystal: :)
        Calvino Rabeni: And you?
        Bolonath Crystal: i just got up *g* stayed with friends quite a long time yesterday
        Bolonath Crystal takes a sip from his coffee
        Calvino Rabeni: Had a good time I take it. :)
        Bolonath Crystal: yeah :)
        Calvino Rabeni: That is sweet
        Bolonath Crystal: i took a look at the 5 bell cat recently. that is a really lazy animal ;)
        Bolonath Crystal: just like mine, hehe
        Calvino Rabeni: I saw it lying around - does it ever move or walk around?
        Bolonath Crystal: it is said to
        Bolonath Crystal: sometimes
        Calvino Rabeni: I think Paradise has a pretty good cat in the PaB village
        Bolonath Crystal: i like cats anyway :)

    There are many different ways of experiencing joy

        Calvino Rabeni: One thing about good cats is sometimes they go crazy and dash around for no reason
        Bolonath Crystal: right
        Calvino Rabeni: They see things that aren't there, and attack shadows
        Bolonath Crystal: an outbreak of pure joy, i suppose
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes.
        Calvino Rabeni: In fact, I was holding that as possible PaB topic.
        Bolonath Crystal: a theme session about cats?
        Calvino Rabeni: No, joy
        Bolonath Crystal: ah
        Calvino Rabeni: I went to a conversation cafe tonight and that was the topic of the night there
        Calvino Rabeni: so it was on my mind
        Bolonath Crystal: i'm not sure about the nature of joy. on one hand it seems to be an effect of dopamine in the brain...
        Bolonath Crystal: on the other hand it is said to be one of the three "devine characters"
        Bolonath Crystal: sat, chit and ananda
        Calvino Rabeni: We could compare experiences of having it
        Calvino Rabeni: I heard lots of different ideas today from a roomful of people
        --BELL--
        Calvino Rabeni: Quite a variety - as if there are as many ways as there are people
        Bolonath Crystal: can you give some examples?
        Calvino Rabeni: One person felt it, sitting and drinking a cup of tea, grateful for simple pleasures
        Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes it was mixed with huge other things
        Calvino Rabeni: I've never had this one - but people have told me their greatest joy was with the birth of their child - along with a great fear about being the one to protect someone else in the world
        Calvino Rabeni: Responsibility they couldn't get out of, and didn't care to either
        Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't seem to do, to try to define it much - contentment, bliss, happiness, gratefulness, etc. would all shade together
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, that must be very joyful. ( i don't have children as well). but i experienced joy as being independend from (material or immaterial) 'things'
        Calvino Rabeni: With me also

    Joy and suffering

        Bolonath Crystal: it appears in the absence of suffering
        Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes though in contrast to those conditions
        Bolonath Crystal: yes
        Bolonath Crystal: funny thing
        Calvino Rabeni: Maybe alongside great suffering - but including a sense of transcending it
        Calvino Rabeni: And things like that often seem to pass among people - it is way beyond personal
        Bolonath Crystal: true. a good laughter can be very infectious *g*
        Calvino Rabeni: Many people tonight cited that they get energies from being connected with other people
        Bolonath Crystal: in my thinking any form of communication is a flow of energy
        Calvino Rabeni: For me it can be a source of joy to have connection with people who have transcended some suffering
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Calvino Rabeni: DIfferent energies communicate
        Calvino Rabeni: For example, after the asian tsunami a few years ago I went to thailand
        Bolonath Crystal: a good one is bidirectional, an exchange of energy. but often i saw very unidirectional communications, like some people draw energy from others
        Calvino Rabeni: They had not rebuilt yet. I like to hang out with people who live there - public scenes at night
        Bolonath Crystal: wow :)
        Calvino Rabeni: They had gone through great suffering. I was talking to a lao woman
        Calvino Rabeni: they have a low social status, and we talked about how she had lost her family, and how very much work it was, and how little money she made for a nights work
        Calvino Rabeni: but funny thing is, we were very relaxed, and started playing together with a small toy, and were genuinely having a good time, laughing
        Calvino Rabeni: and this was the presence of joy and well being in the aftermath of tragedy and the presence of a difficult life
        Bolonath Crystal nods
        Calvino Rabeni: and somehow it released me from my petty worries
        Calvino Rabeni: and I remember it as an epiphany of sorts, that had joy
        Calvino Rabeni: probably that there was a good felt connection, and life right then was good, in a way the tragedy and toil just could not touch
        Calvino Rabeni: anyway that was one memory and a learning for me.
        Bolonath Crystal: in former years i worked in the tropics for a while and i made a very similar experience
        --BELL--
        Bolonath Crystal: joy can happen under really tough conditions
        Calvino Rabeni: it can

    Joy indicates harmony

        Bolonath Crystal: hm...
        Bolonath Crystal: i just had the idea that joy occurs, when our inner picture of reality is in harmony with reality itself
        Bolonath Crystal: that would explain why enlightened beings feel everlasting joy
        Bolonath Crystal: as soon as we start to have wishes or wrong experiences there is a contrast between reality and the idea of it - and joy diminishes
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I can see that at work, it makes sense
        Calvino Rabeni: it makes one's joy un-conditioned on what happens
        Calvino Rabeni: I tried exploring this with people today
        Calvino Rabeni: Some had the idea they could trick themselves into being happy by adopting "positive" thoughts or ideas about reality.
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, i met this idea, too
        Calvino Rabeni: But I some doubts about that - and it seemed the consensus that doing so will eventually loop around and bite you from behind.
        Bolonath Crystal: indeed
        Bolonath Crystal: it is just the other side of the cage
        Calvino Rabeni: And they also agreed with the idea of "seeing what is real" and being OK with that,whatever it may be
        Calvino Rabeni: The question was, how to do it as part of a real life activity
        Bolonath Crystal: there will be negative and positive experiences as long as we judge experiences. in the folllow we 'suffer' pain and joy
        Bolonath Crystal: on this level there is no chance of having one without the other
        Bolonath Crystal: but as soon as we accept reality without judgeing, this polarity subsides
        Calvino Rabeni: some people said similar things, they believe the pain and joy are like opposite ends of a stick, but I don't actually experience that
        Calvino Rabeni: I think joy comes from a completely different place than the like / dislike stuff
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, that the 'other level' i'm talking about
        Calvino Rabeni: There was a roomful of people - maybe 20, from all walks of life, a little like PaB
        Bolonath Crystal: the real joy
        Bolonath Crystal: ananda
        Calvino Rabeni: And no particular philosophies
        --BELL--
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes I track you there

    Experience of unconditioned joy during meditation

        Bolonath Crystal: i caught a glimpse of it during meditation
        Bolonath Crystal: feels rather overwhelming :)
        Calvino Rabeni: It was interesting to me, they carried some very common assumptions - (1) that joy and pain were opposites, (2) that you couldn't have joy along with pain, (3) or when anything was "wrong", etc.
        Calvino Rabeni: But they did not persist those ideas,and gave them up with easy assent when I asserted something else was possible.
        Calvino Rabeni: Funny
        Calvino Rabeni: What was it you glimpsed Bolo?
        Bolonath Crystal: unconditioned joy
        Bolonath Crystal: you can have it along with pain
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Calvino Rabeni: Did it seem unusual to have that experience, or was the overwhelmingness because it was a very clear full experience?
        Bolonath Crystal: it didn't feel unusual at all. but it felt very strong. i completely lost the perception of everything immediately
        Bolonath Crystal: there was joy and nothing else
        Calvino Rabeni: Isee,pure
        Bolonath Crystal: npo chance of resistance :)
        Bolonath Crystal: no*
        Bolonath Crystal: there was no day and no night, no inside or outside, nothing but joy
        Bolonath Crystal: it threw me out of meditation
        Bolonath Crystal: leaving me in samsara, laughing like a little child
        Calvino Rabeni: OK, I understand a little more after that second part:)
        Bolonath Crystal: it is extremely difficult staying in this state
        Bolonath Crystal: too much karma...
        Calvino Rabeni: I have long renounced trying to stay in any state
        Calvino Rabeni: But, I do give my attention - not sure it is exactly "trying" however
        Bolonath Crystal: jolly good idea
        Calvino Rabeni: to create a connection between those different levels of awareness
        Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to describe to people - it doesn't feel like "trying" to be any way
        Bolonath Crystal: 'trying' creates a new reality-picture-conflict. if i try something, things are not as they ought to
        Calvino Rabeni: but it does feel like releasing to being somehow more real
        Bolonath Crystal: i think i get this point
        --BELL--
        Calvino Rabeni: If something like ananda is easily there just for opening to the awareness of it, and yet there are automatic habits of ignoring it, then to let go of those is perhaps a doing, but a very easy and energizing one that uses less effort than anything else
        Calvino Rabeni: So I'm not sure I'd call it an effort in that sense, or maybe even a doing
        Calvino Rabeni: but it doesn't seem to happen without giving awareness
        Bolonath Crystal: un-doing
        Calvino Rabeni: so I'm grateful for any reminders from "outside" that help me with this
        Calvino Rabeni: and the "inside" / "outside" distinction relaxes
        Bolonath Crystal: :)

    The pure mind of children

        Calvino Rabeni: I think, "remembrance" is important for people
        Calvino Rabeni: Like what I suggested to some people today - they went along with it, not because it was a good idea, but they seemed to remember it as being already true to them
        Calvino Rabeni: Not a factual type memory, but a recognition
        Calvino Rabeni: as in , just look now
        Bolonath Crystal: kind of resonance
        Bolonath Crystal: it appears and then simply is there, attention given or not
        Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, maybe there but not recognized as present with out some attention
        Calvino Rabeni: although it is still a working intelligence even when unnoticed
        Calvino Rabeni: And they (still referring to who I talked with today )"went into" a couple ideas in a nice way
        Calvino Rabeni: Like the idea of children, having no idea of the future and no "motivation"
        Calvino Rabeni: But then they remembered a little better, that as children they *did* have motivation - as in, something they wanted to accomplish - but it had a lot to do with being present with their world - rather than having been defined abstractly by others
        Calvino Rabeni: So the "innocence" idea got a little more realistic for adults
        Bolonath Crystal: oh well... 'innocence'... kids can be extremely 'motivated'. but then they can be the opposite as well. that's the part grown-ups are missing
        Calvino Rabeni: Motivated by reality - passion for Being
        Calvino Rabeni: When they are "bored" they are learning to think like adults
        Bolonath Crystal: lol
        Bolonath Crystal: nice :)
        Calvino Rabeni: There is a certain "pure mind" of children, but adults remember it in a nostalgic and not necessarily accurate way
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, i agree
        Calvino Rabeni: Kind of like, imagining life would be great if all you had to do was sip cool drinks on a tropical beach
        Calvino Rabeni: They want realease from the false burdens
        Calvino Rabeni: but can't remember being passionately connected to the true things
        Calvino Rabeni: Whatever the "burden"would be if it was joyfully assented to
        --BELL--
        Calvino Rabeni: Having "good work" to do seemed part of people's "joy" experiences
        Bolonath Crystal: the burden changes into a joyful challenge, a game, 'lila'
        Calvino Rabeni: yeay
        Calvino Rabeni: I meant "Yeah" but that sound works also :)
        Bolonath Crystal: :D
        Calvino Rabeni: Anyway I enjoyed sharing thinking with that group earlier today, and pleasantly surprised by the variety of good thinking and how it was able to come together.
        Bolonath Crystal: there must have been a very good flow of energy
        Calvino Rabeni: I observed that the good ideas would be picked up and propagated and repeated
        Calvino Rabeni: It was just normal people in above-average working together
        Calvino Rabeni: Kind of - no miracle, but something people can do given a modest "container"
        Bolonath Crystal: (i'm still having these ideas of harmony, tunes and resonances in mind)

    Deities and universal archetypes

        Calvino Rabeni: PaB - same idea of course, for collective intelligence to start to work together
        Calvino Rabeni: those are nice metaphors for it
        Calvino Rabeni: A kind of musical ear and sensitivity to "the music"
        Bolonath Crystal: nada brahma
        Calvino Rabeni: I think of that as "world as sound", is that the meaning?
        Bolonath Crystal: yes
        Bolonath Crystal: nada is the sanscrit word for sound
        Calvino Rabeni: I relate to it
        Calvino Rabeni: ah, yes, didn't know that
        Calvino Rabeni: but got it from context
        Bolonath Crystal: brahma is the 'creator' (and thus the 'creation' as well)
        Bolonath Crystal: in hinduism there is a divine trinity
        Bolonath Crystal: brahma creates, vishnu keeps the creation going, and shive finishes it
        Bolonath Crystal: shiva*
        Calvino Rabeni: yes, gunas then from that?
        Bolonath Crystal: right
        Bolonath Crystal: that's why shiva is the master-yogi. he finishes illusion
        Bolonath Crystal: he is the key-aspect for the ending of samsara
        Calvino Rabeni: These are universal archetypes where they show up as ideas from many sources, apparently unrelated in origin, but coming from an intuitive understanding of how reality operates
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, i think so
        Calvino Rabeni: since I"m not a hindu, I don't call them deities, but recognize them as basic parts of realityh
        Calvino Rabeni: symbols
        Bolonath Crystal: those deities are nothing but symbols for exactly these basic parts
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Bolonath Crystal: personifications
        Bolonath Crystal: easier to deal with ;)
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and that is useful to make them personal
        Calvino Rabeni: It brings them to a human level of understanding
        Bolonath Crystal: as long as one is aware of them being symbols
        Bolonath Crystal: otherwise it becomes misleading
        --BELL--
        Calvino Rabeni: Every religion has its ways of warning about that
        Calvino Rabeni: the difference between symbols, signs, and icons
        Bolonath Crystal: all this religious fundamentalistic troubling around is nothing but a fight for symbols
        Calvino Rabeni: And the cautions - some take them seriously
        Calvino Rabeni: I'd call it a a fight for icons, not symbols
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, good luck
        Bolonath Crystal: icons, yes
        Calvino Rabeni: And they've been cautioned about that
        Calvino Rabeni: of course, falling into the confusion pretty easily
        Bolonath Crystal: hinduism is very colorful
        Bolonath Crystal: lots of icons :)
        Bolonath Crystal: i think zen-buddhism is about the opposite
        Calvino Rabeni: similar some buddhism
        Calvino Rabeni: tibetan for example - but not zen
        Calvino Rabeni: complex iconography
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, tibetan buddhism is very colorful as well
        Bolonath Crystal: somewhere i read, that in thailand people are buddhists, but worship shiva as well
        Calvino Rabeni: what matters is if the icons are used as symbols or not - whether people "see through" them
        Calvino Rabeni: Well they "worship" buddha as a god figure to be prayed to, also
        Calvino Rabeni: an object of devotion
        Calvino Rabeni: And kwan yin is big
        Bolonath Crystal: the problem with worshipping is, that god (as an icon for 'being') is projected outside the 'self'
        Bolonath Crystal: difficult then to experience the own divine nature. that is often considered as blasphemic
        Calvino Rabeni: well, purists call it a form of idolatry
        Calvino Rabeni: actually I have a fondness for the following place:
        Calvino Rabeni: http://picasaweb.google.com/WyldMedia/Thailand#5431733388528873394

    IMGP0158.JPG
        Bolonath Crystal: *click*
        Bolonath Crystal: wow
        Bolonath Crystal: that's in thailand?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Bolonath Crystal: seems to be avalokiteshvara
        Calvino Rabeni: It is called kuan yin
        Calvino Rabeni: the water is full of fishes that eat fish food that the worshipers buy then throw into the water
        Calvino Rabeni: it is a fun aspect - feeding the hungry fishes who are so eager
        Calvino Rabeni: But there is attached a nice meditation hall
        Bolonath Crystal: wiki says that kwan yin is the bodhisattva of compassion - as avalokiteshvara is
        Calvino Rabeni: yes, the thousand arms are arms of helping all sentient beings with whatever they need
        Calvino Rabeni: the arms hold many useful things - anything possible that could be of help
        Bolonath Crystal: tibetans call him chenrezig
        Calvino Rabeni: It is one symbol I relate to strongly
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, me too
        Calvino Rabeni: I think, it helps to travel, and to see what speaks to one
        Bolonath Crystal: avalokiteshvara is my favourite bodhisattva :)
        Bolonath Crystal: in all his forms and figures
        Calvino Rabeni: I don't study it in books or whatever - just the ones I have actually encountered someplace
        Calvino Rabeni: and then I find it is already known in other places around the world
        --BELL--
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, some things are truely universal
        Calvino Rabeni: Although the first kuan yin I knew - was as a child I would go to the asian art museum near my house, and I always had to go look at the 1000-armed diety, and I would stare a long time, thinking what I might do if I had 1000 arms
        Calvino Rabeni: I think the statue actually did have that many
        Bolonath Crystal: :)
        Calvino Rabeni: It was a symbole that worked - intuitively
        Bolonath Crystal: i'd buy new t-shirts first *g*
        Bolonath Crystal: i don't have any with 1000 arms
        Calvino Rabeni: Maybe an expando-t-shirt that automatically has enough
        Bolonath Crystal: cool :))
        Calvino Rabeni: or some of the arms have needle and thread
        Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, a symbol of abundance in being able to deal with any possible circumstance in life
        Calvino Rabeni: one would naturally be able to help others
        Bolonath Crystal nods. that's what the many arms express
        Calvino Rabeni: No doubt unbeatable at ping pong also
        Bolonath Crystal: lol
        Bolonath Crystal: the bodhisattva of ping pong and compassion :)
        Calvino Rabeni: I have a small replica in brass, that I put in a niche at my house
        Bolonath Crystal: compassion is a strong link between all the beings and so symbolizes the oneness of 'being' very well
        Calvino Rabeni: Oneness through abundant multiplicity, but also all linked into one body
        Bolonath Crystal: physicists would probably call it 'entanglement'
        Calvino Rabeni: I should go - I have an early morning RL appointment
        Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the chat Bolonath
        Bolonath Crystal: thank you 2 :) have a good night
        Calvino Rabeni: good day, see you later
        Bolonath Crystal: om shanti :)


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