2010.02.04 19:00 - Locale, Crestone and SL/RL interplay

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

     

    Eos Amaterasu: Hi storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm subbing for Paradise tonight

     

    --BELL--

     

    Storm Nordwind: Ah... it's OK, I'm not disappointed! ;)
    Eos Amaterasu: She is in Italy, I believe
    Storm Nordwind: There is perhaps a vortex in Italy, attracting Play as Being people :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Heh heh, yes
    Storm Nordwind: I came across another such area recently allegedly like that
    Storm Nordwind: There's a place a little way south of where I live that has some special properties, according to some
    Eos Amaterasu: Crestone?
    Storm Nordwind: Yes
    Eos Amaterasu: I've never been there, but heard interesting things about it, and there are certainly many buddhist and related groups there
    Storm Nordwind: Official census in 2000 of just 73 people...
    Storm Nordwind: yet there are temples and retreat center and all sorts
    Storm Nordwind: a Carmelite monastery...
    Storm Nordwind: a Zen center
    Storm Nordwind: 7 Tibetan Buddhist centers
    Storm Nordwind: a couple of Hindu places
    Storm Nordwind: and doubtless a few newage places too
    Eos Amaterasu: Have you been there?
    Storm Nordwind: Not yet. I've only just discovered it. I usually just shrug my shoulders when I learn of these places, but I've never been an afternoon's drive from one before
    Eos Amaterasu: Something special about the land, geological time scale that yet speaks to us
    Storm Nordwind: Yes... apparently Lama Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche says "Crestone is one of the two or three places on Planet Earth best suited for retreat practice."
    Storm Nordwind: I'm intrigued and am going to drive down
    Eos Amaterasu: Perhaps a PaB retreat site one of these times
    Storm Nordwind: Yes. I'm sure some of the retreat centers there would welcome some extra occupancy
    Storm Nordwind: We'll see
    Storm Nordwind: It's a little way from airports though, and up at 8000ft too
    Storm Nordwind: neither of which is a big deal for me, but other would probably find it so
    Eos Amaterasu: It's another of those places where the mountains meet the plains
    Storm Nordwind: and on a watershed, water flowing either way... and an amazing array of sand dunes close by too
    Eos Amaterasu is looing at google maps/sat map, showing spiny mountain ridge
    Storm Nordwind: If you use Google Earth, you can go play among the dunes (though curiously on Google Earth, they're blue!) :)

     

    --BELL--

    Eos Amaterasu: The place is an interesting factor in retreats. You start by acknowledging the spirits of the place
    Storm Nordwind: I always used to do that years ago on retreats. I would go beforehand if possible and negotiate with the spirits of the place to use their land, finding out what they would like in return. If they said "no", we'd have to find somewhere else!
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: In Malta visiting the Hypogeum was a bit like that
    Eos Amaterasu: The whole island had an ancient quality, of layers of history, inhabitation
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, eos, storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Cal
    Storm Nordwind: How did you find it manifested? As a feeling? An abstract impression? Or perhaps entities with whom you could communicate?
    Eos Amaterasu: No specific entities, though Pema and I took a long walk toward two hills down the valley, near where it met the ocean, that Godwin, the ex-Jesuit who rents out the "meditation farmhouse", said had special energy
    Eos Amaterasu: He was convinced there was another Hypogeum there
    Storm Nordwind: Oh? Did he elaborate on that?
    Eos Amaterasu: No, just mentioned it briefly: but he brought it up himself.
    Eos Amaterasu: It's interesting that land, and land plus the life growing in and around it, can be an opening of Being....
    Storm Nordwind: Fascinating. Local lore and knowledge can be so important in discovery and exploration.
    Eos Amaterasu: I have a "special spot" near where I live, to which I take walks
    Eos Amaterasu: A personal "copper colored mountain"....
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd like to hear about its special qualities or whatever
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm sure the MiqMaq aboriginals used it
    Eos Amaterasu: It looks out over the "dingle", Fleming Park
    Eos Amaterasu: Also has a protector, in the form of a carving in a tree trunk - pretty unusual, but I don't know its history
    Storm Nordwind: In places like that, especially here where the air is thinner and the sky blue, I am often aware of two other things
    Storm Nordwind: Firstly, the wonder and fragility of where we live. And secondly, sudden consciousness that we live on just an eggshell, or the peel of an apple, with so much unknown, above and below
    Eos Amaterasu: We are temporary bacteria on that peel
    Storm Nordwind: yes!
    Storm Nordwind: And in fact, where we live is even thinner and more fragile than an apple peel
    Calvino Rabeni: You might know, the actual bacteria penetrate very far down into the crust of the earth
    Calvino Rabeni: And most of the life of the planet is subterranean
    Storm Nordwind: How far down Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: although the life we consider important runs hither and fro on the surface
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't know exact figure, but maybe a mile or more
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the "places of power" feeling
    Storm Nordwind: So the habitable portion of this planet is perhaps a 5mile shell on an 8000 mile sphere then
    Storm Nordwind approximates
    Eos Amaterasu: There's a minority theory that there are bacteria quite deep down that are responsible for producing oil (ie, that oil isn't just recycled dinosaurs)

     


    --BELL--


    The conversation shifts to the eye-opening / being-opening effects of SL/RL interaction

    Calvino Rabeni: And now a word from our sponsor. Have you tried the PaB 9-second practice? I have! And it has had worthwhile effects on my life !
    Storm Nordwind: I've read the brochure ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: But wait, there's more !
    Eos Amaterasu: Certain natural spots can put you into that space, that suspension
    Storm Nordwind: But case histories are fascinating. Tell us more - do!
    Eos Amaterasu listens
    Calvino Rabeni: The medium is the message... sometimes in a reverse fashion
    Calvino Rabeni: As you may be aware, it is easy to make conversation in second life
    Calvino Rabeni: but hard to make eye contact
    Calvino Rabeni: I have found that created a paradoxical effect on my awareness in real life settings
    Calvino Rabeni: such as cafes. Recently I have found eye contact that I might have avoided in the past, leading to the starts of conversations
    Calvino Rabeni: And the 9-second practice is basically just a reminder to become aware of possibilities in the immediate present
    Storm Nordwind: You mean, perhaps, SL has created an eye-contact craving almost? ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: the result has been some kind of increase in the interesting social contacts in cafes
    Calvino Rabeni: Not a craving - but - what do you call it - suppose you walked down a street every day, past a bakery with cakes in the window
    Calvino Rabeni: And are not necessarily a chocoholic, but just the reminder, works like TV commercials, to keep something in mind
    Calvino Rabeni: short of a craving - but definitely the bare memory of a past experience, even a subtle one, biases future behavior
    Calvino Rabeni: as any hypnotist or advertiser knows, I would assume
    Calvino Rabeni: And the normal human nervous system probably has those two things linked up
    Calvino Rabeni: looking at someone and speaking to them
    Calvino Rabeni: So having those disconnected in SL would create a slight tension due to its unnaturalness
    Calvino Rabeni: which would seek some resolution
    Storm Nordwind: Do you find that removing one intuitive cue caused other to heighten in compensation perhaps, like detecting more subtleties in voice chat in SL?
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe, imagination has to work overtime to fill in the missing contactful presence in SL
    Calvino Rabeni: Which might or might not be a good thing
    Calvino Rabeni: I can assume either way
    Storm Nordwind: That depends if your input is self-generated or objectively detected, I would have thought?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, that seems like a stark distinction in a couple ways
    Storm Nordwind cannot type fast enough to make it less stark!
    Calvino Rabeni: And if in common experience there is only a fuzzy distinction, or a melding of those categories, then .... ?
    Storm Nordwind: I think it may be possible with a mixture of talent, training and practice, to become as accurate as its possible to be in these perceptions, over time, and to gain corroboration that verifies it.
    Storm Nordwind: But it really does take time, and in SL requires a lot of cooperation!
    Calvino Rabeni: That may be true, I hope - and on the other hand, it seems like a questionable amount of austerity, a kind of cave dwelling if you will
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, some traditional cultures have shamans, and they don't get to choose to be one
    Storm Nordwind: why austerity?
    Calvino Rabeni: As children, they are placed in isolation, in caves or whatever
    Eos Amaterasu: or maybe they're epileptic

     


    --BELL--

     

    Calvino Rabeni: And it is a hardship, but eventually, they believe, it sharpens the perceptivity of the shaman-in-training
    Storm Nordwind: The thing is you take your heightened perception back into the full sense world. Thus you are effectively enriched
    Calvino Rabeni: And what you mention is probably an explanation of the enhancement of my cafe life :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, that's why I think the SL aspect of PaB is more than just a semi-accidental convenience
    Storm Nordwind: yes indeed, perhaps, Cal!
    Calvino Rabeni: But I fear a bit for people that have SL as a substitute and don't get out that much
    Storm Nordwind: Good point Eos
    Calvino Rabeni: Or, are somehow not able to flexibly respond to the distinctions involved
    Eos Amaterasu: "I fear the man who has lived in only one world"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Storm Nordwind: Is that a more horrible thing than sitting in front of a TV for twice the time?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it could be, but am not sure
    Eos Amaterasu: SL is more interactive, more immersive, more active... you think you really are there
    Eos Amaterasu: wherever there is :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, what medium do you think is more enriching, if you can state a media bias, SL or reading?
    Calvino Rabeni: TV is more mesmerizing than either SL or reading
    Calvino Rabeni: But it communicates a massive amount of cultural knowledge in a compact form
    Storm Nordwind: I like the quote by Edward de Bono, the promulgator of lateral thinking: "By the time he is twenty the average youngster in the United Kingdom will have spent the equivalent of eight full working years watching television. That is assuming he watches no television until the age of five. " I suspect that number has increased in the 20 years since he first said it!
    Calvino Rabeni: Although not in a way that encourages reflective awareness or constructive thinking
    Storm Nordwind: *30 years
    Storm Nordwind: TV is there to entertain. That is its raison d'etre - and its funding model. 'Enriching' would be an ambitious word for that
    Eos Amaterasu: There's more of a sense of living in SL, in an alternative world, actively: unprecedented in human history
    Eos Amaterasu: that reflects back on actively living in RL
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that might presume certain values about what knowledge should be considered worthwhile
    Eos Amaterasu: opens the crack of being, so to speak
    Calvino Rabeni: An implicit moral position, which is OK, but I think a neutral analysis is worth trying
    Eos Amaterasu: "there is a crack in everything...."
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, SL supports a kind of creative engagement
    Storm Nordwind: I look for more than knowledge. There is process that can be learnt through interaction and proactivity, rather than reacting to someone else's predigested agenda
    Calvino Rabeni: The "newness" of it will fade, however, while the intrinsic effects will not
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Eos Amaterasu: intrinsic effects are always more visiible to the first comers
    Calvino Rabeni: But I am concerned that as it evolves, there will be more and more "preprogrammed" activities provided
    Storm Nordwind: Have you evidence of these already?
    Eos Amaterasu: onigokko ? :-)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Calvino Rabeni: In SL? Well it's been somewhat of an advantage that it is technically primitive and hard to work with
    Calvino Rabeni: otherwise I think you would already have seen it colonized by the game companies
    Calvino Rabeni: and that would push it more towards the entertainment model
    Storm Nordwind: You'll probably have noticed that many big companies (and universities) have come into SL and tried to impose their agenda and values... and have evaporated in nearly all cases
    Calvino Rabeni: that is if you consider online games "entertainiment"?
    Storm Nordwind: The things that grow here seem to be spawned from the inside, and grow here
    Calvino Rabeni: I think they evaporated because they ran into a technical wall
    Storm Nordwind: and are the most successful
    Eos Amaterasu: also an imagination wall
    Calvino Rabeni: but I actually expect, that future versions of shared virtual realities will be much more supportive to those things
    Eos Amaterasu: agree with inside out approach, yes: go native :-)
    Storm Nordwind: I don't think that at all. It was a CBA wall. An ROI wall.
    Eos Amaterasu: 3D , plus virtuality over reality, seems to be the direction

     

    --BELL--

     

    Storm Nordwind: This is an alien country with its own culture(s). These take time to learn.
    Eos Amaterasu: Must go to bed, guys (late, tired, ....)
    Calvino Rabeni: What I expect is that virtuality will envelop actuality in some ways.
    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao!
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Eos Amaterasu: well yes, cal....
    Storm Nordwind looks at the clock
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: but bye....
    Eos Amaterasu: good night
    Storm Nordwind: And I have to finish making the bread! :)
    Storm Nordwind: So please excuse me too
    Calvino Rabeni: The famous bread :)
    Storm Nordwind: I didn't know it was famous!?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, it has established a foothold in the mindset of PaB :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And now it is part of internet eternity
    Storm Nordwind: I had no idea... I must read a few more logs it seems!
    Storm Nordwind: Anyway, bye for now :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care, loaves and fishes for all :)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
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