Page last modified 21:13, 9 Apr 2010 by wol

*Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this session.*

The session began slowly and quietly.

Wol Euler: hello liza, calvino

Liza Deischer: hi

Calvino Rabeni: Hello

Wol Euler: I was just getting used to the idea of being alone this morning :)

Wol Euler: not that you are unwelcome!

Liza Deischer: sorry :-)

Wol Euler chuckles

Liza Deischer: sometimes it can be nice to be alone here

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Wol Euler: I sometimes come here between sessions to sit and listen to the birds

Liza Deischer: hmmm

Liza Deischer: I have another place to do that, but I know what you mean

Liza Deischer: so to me the water is more attractive

Wol Euler nods.

Liza Deischer: easy listening :-)

Wol Euler: :)

Wol Euler: well, feel free to offer a topic ...

Liza Deischer: have non I'm afraid

Wol Euler: ah well. Calvino? you are very quiet today

Calvino Rabeni: I'm in an IMy mood

Wol Euler: ah

Calvino Rabeni: Or, you could say "SL telepathy" :)

Wol Euler: heheheh

Wol Euler: there is that, yes.

Wol Euler: I missed IM at the retreat, I have to admit

Liza Deischer: :-)

Wol Euler: and the bell.

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: Pema didn't bring one with him?

Calvino Rabeni: You had no bell at the retreat ???!!

Wol Euler: phone

Liza Deischer: Im and phone: way to go :-)

Liza Deischer: and I just found a topic

Wol Euler: back, fire away

Liza starts us off with a question about the Nines.

Liza Deischer: the nine sec.

Liza Deischer: talking about the bell

Liza Deischer: I've been reading about it on the site

Wol Euler: mmm?

Liza Deischer: seeing that you're supposed to write something down

Wol Euler: that is the recommendation, yes.

Liza Deischer: yes, sorry, to strong word

Wol Euler: like writing a diary, the purpose is to be able to look back and remember how you felt, how the exercises worked

Wol Euler: in a way that our "in-head" memory often falsifies or condenses

Wol Euler: taking most recent experiences to be most significant, or aggregating them into middle-values that leave out the highs and lows

Wol Euler slaps herself and stops lecturing.

Liza Deischer: if you not write them down,you mean

Wol Euler: yes

Liza Deischer: do you do that?

Wol Euler: no :)

Liza Deischer: because I'm very curious....

Liza Deischer: oh ok

Wol Euler: I have done, but on the whole I don't.

Wol Euler: Adams did, perhaps still does. She started a blog, now defunct, to record them.

Wol Euler: what are you curious about?

Liza Deischer: what happens if you read them back

Wol Euler smiles

Liza Deischer: curious about the information you get

Liza Deischer: and the difference with not doing so

Liza Deischer: I never thought of writing something down

Wol Euler: did you ever keep a diary?

Liza Deischer: no

Wol Euler: well, that is unusual, you're one of the very few people I've met who never ever did.

Liza Deischer: well, I treid sometimes, but it's not my thing

Liza Deischer: still I think it can work

Calvino Rabeni: The writing is one of many possible practices to increase self-awareness

Wol Euler: when you were trying, did you read back what you had written?

Calvino Rabeni: You could try other things

Wol Euler: (nods to calvino)

Liza Deischer: not really

Liza Deischer: I do write a lot though

Liza Deischer: but not a diary

I try to answer from my own experience.

Wol Euler: the information you get is indeed self-awareness, and a measure of encouragement

Liza Deischer: that's different

Liza Deischer: at least I think

Wol Euler: probably:)

Wol Euler: at my level of practice, I am constantly struggling against myself and the world

Wol Euler: can't concentrate, can't focus on my breathing, thoughts always running away etc

Wol Euler: this can get depressing, can make you think that you're "doing it wrong"

Liza Deischer: with yourself or against yourself :-)

Wol Euler: both :)

Liza Deischer: ah, yes, I understand

Wol Euler: my laziness, my boss on the phone …

Wol Euler: if that happens say four times in a row, you think "well, maybe this is not for me" and might quit

Wol Euler: but if you have notes to look back on, you can see that this happened before, and you came through it.

Wol Euler: that after a week of struggle, you had nearly a month of comfort and ease, when it all came to you

Wol Euler: and so you keep on.

Calvino Rabeni: Some people journal for self-expression, whereas what you're referring to Wol, is journaling for objectivity

Wol Euler: my introduction to meditation was on a website run by a friend in the US, we meditated each day and posted as comments what we felt/thought/did/struggled with

Wol Euler: yes, exactly

Wol Euler: it was a great encouragement to me to see that others whom I thought of as greatly experienced, also sometimes struggled as I did!

Liza Deischer: that's an important difference what you say cal

Calvino Rabeni: Reality check.

Liza Deischer: I think the struggling parts are the most important

--BELL--

Wol Euler: so do I, now :)

Liza Deischer: True Wol

Liza Deischer: If you start it can be pretty depressing

Calvino introduces Lojong, a term that I hadn't heard before, though Wikipedia suggests parallels with many of Stim's and Pema's suggestions in the group: "Lojong … is a practice in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition based on a set of proverbs formulated in Tibet in the 12th century by Geshe Chekhawa. The practice involves refining and purifying one's intent and way of thinking.

"The fifty-nine or so proverbs that form the root text of the Lojong practice are designed as a set of antidotes to undesired mental habits, paranoia, and fixed ideas that cause suffering. They contain both Absolute Bodhicitta suggestions to expand one's viewpoint, such as *Find the consciousness you had before you were born* and *Treat everything you perceive as a dream*, and Relative Bodhicitta suggestions for relating to the world in a more constructive way, such as *Be grateful to everyone* or *When everything goes wrong, treat disaster as a way to wake up*."

Calvino Rabeni: I've been enjoying the lojong proverbs from the WOK workshop - they speak about this practice, sometimes a struggle, to achieve self-awareness

Wol Euler grins

Liza Deischer: yes

Wol Euler: that is the purpose of making notes after the Nines, as I understand it

Wol Euler: it is a struggle, yes :)

Wol Euler: poor little Mindfulness, surrounded on all sides by obstacles and distractions

Liza Deischer: :-)

Liza Deischer: well, i think an important part is not to judge yoursef

Liza Deischer: but maybe that's the hardest part :-)

Calvino Rabeni: Yes - from the lojong there is the following:

Calvino Rabeni:Free yourself by first watching, then analyzing. / Understand your attachments, your aversions, and your indifference, and love them all. / Renew your commitment when you get up and before you go to sleep.

Wol Euler nods.

Wol Euler: that's very good, calvino.

Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't say "watch and judge" :)

Liza Deischer: yes

Wol Euler: yes

Liza Deischer: no :-)

Liza Deischer: but judging is something that is so deeply anchored in our culture

Wol Euler: we get twelve plus years of it in school and college ...

Wol Euler: and our parents, bless them, hammer it in to us as well

Liza Deischer: The Tibetans don't even have a word for guilt

Wol Euler: O.O

The Inner Critic.

Calvino Rabeni: Well, the tight loop of the "inner critic" is really, something separate from analytical thinking

Liza Deischer: there the problem seems to be the other way around

Liza Deischer: yes, it is

Calvino Rabeni: That is "critical thinking" doesn't mean "I think it suck!"

Wol Euler: right

Calvino Rabeni: Critical thinking is about logic of objects, while vague negative moralizing is part of a different logic of self- debasement

Wol Euler: indeed.

Wol Euler: "hate the crime but love the criminal" to put it in Christian terms

Calvino Rabeni: In fact, some therapies are about thinking more clearly and less emotionally about self, to unhook from that kind of panicked moralizer viewpoint

Calvino Rabeni: There's an element of desperation in it

Wol Euler: oh yes

Calvino Rabeni: where someone has to be blamed

Liza Deischer: I think that 'hate the crime but love the criminal' is not always understood in the right way

Wol Euler: mmmm?

Calvino Rabeni: Or sin / sinner, as it used to be called

Liza Deischer: you can't look at the criminal and leaving out the crime

Liza Deischer: that makes it hard

Liza Deischer: but sin gives an opportunity to look a bit different to it

Liza Deischer: if you translate it as 'something you still need to develop'

Calvino Rabeni: You could call that viewpoint compassion also

Wol Euler: yes

Calvino Rabeni: A somewhat moral perspective takes these ideas, and the lojong, as about the development of compassion

Calvino Rabeni: but you could also call it the development of an accurate view of reality

Wol Euler smiles.

Calvino Rabeni: a truer objectivism

Liza Deischer: yes

Calvino Rabeni: Or did I mean, objectivity ...

Liza Deischer: but emotionally it is still hard to see the crime in the criminal

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: what I mean is that getting objective, doesn't mean getting into your head

Calvino Rabeni: Right, it means seeing with fewer attachments and biases, more flexibly, less automatically

Wol Euler nods.

Liza Deischer: yes

Liza Deischer: bu it is not always easy to see the difference :-)

Calvino Rabeni: seeing without getting emotionally triggered into a limited perspective

Calvino Rabeni: The difference is, can you experience your awareness contracting...

Wol Euler: to be able to say "that went badly" without automatically following it with "I am such a fool"

Liza Deischer: because sometimes you can be numb to certain feelings

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the first case will admit a lot more knowledge than the second

Liza Deischer: thinking they are not there and feeling it as objectivity

Liza Deischer: being objective

Liza Deischer: yes

Calvino Rabeni: I mean knowledge as the combined awareness of body/mind/spirit in response to situations

Calvino Rabeni: not just intellectual thinking

Calvino Rabeni: the numbness is a limitation on that knowledge

Liza Deischer: yes

Liza Deischer: but I try to close in on it a bit

Calvino Rabeni: that one should assume, has a protective function

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's worthwhile, done gently

Liza Deischer: intellectually it is 'easy' to understand

Liza Deischer: true

Liza Deischer: but how to do it?

Wol Euler: ah :)

Liza Deischer: how do you get close to your inner judgemental side

Calvino Rabeni: A graceful approach is suggested by the lojong proverb "do not strike at the heart"

Liza Deischer: I have ideas about that

Calvino Rabeni: Yes?

Liza Deischer: but I think it is an important question

Wol Euler: it is!

Calvino Rabeni: Draw it out ?

Liza Deischer: yes, but that is not for discussion

Wol Euler: ah :)

Liza Deischer: I'm afraid

Liza Deischer: you need to get to the experience itself

Calvino Rabeni: Yes

Liza Deischer: maybe it would be nice some time to discuss an experience like that

Liza Deischer: getting a bit closer

We are joined by an enormous plague rat.

Wol Euler: hello milos

Milos Leidesdorff: Hello

Liza Deischer: hi milos

Wol Euler: wow, rezzed in 2006, an oldie.

Liza Deischer: :-)

Milos Leidesdorff: Who, me?

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Liza Deischer: there is no time left to do it now

Wol Euler: another day, perhaps, Liza?

Liza Deischer: yes, but how does it sounds

Calvino Rabeni: It is worthwhile, go for it sometime

Milos Leidesdorff: How do you see when someone rezzed?

Wol Euler: right-click on them and check their profile

Wol Euler: take a seat, join us

Liza Deischer: i can get called away any time now

Wol Euler: ah pity, but the hour is nearly up

Liza Deischer: yes

Wol Euler: Milos, that notecard gives you a brief overview of the group Play as Being

Wol Euler: we also have a website, http://playasbeing.wik.is/

Milos Leidesdorff: I'm just reading over it now

Wol Euler: we publish the minutes of htese meetings on our website. May we have your permission to include your SL name and comments in the published record?

Milos Leidesdorff: Of course, naturally.

Wol Euler: ty

--BELL--

Wol Euler reads back.

Milos Leidesdorff: So, what;s up everyone?

Wol Euler: well, we were talking about objectivity and being observant without judging

Milos Leidesdorff: That's certainly a difficult path.

Liza Deischer: you're familiar with meditation milos?

Milos Leidesdorff: I am familiar with it, yes,

Wol Euler: do you have a practice?

Milos Leidesdorff: No, I am a skeptic and a science oriented infividual.

Wol Euler: one can meditate without rejecting science.

Wol Euler: we are not a *religious* group.

Milos Leidesdorff: Certainly, hence why I said I am familirar with meditation.

Milos Leidesdorff: I simply have no need for it, and have no practice.

Liza Deischer: we were discussing getting more objectivity through meditation or other practices

Milos Leidesdorff: Ah, I see.

Milos Leidesdorff: I won't derail your discussion, then.

Wol Euler: no worries

Liza Deischer: well,we were getting more or less to the end of it

Wol Euler: actually, I must be going. Work calls.

Wol Euler: I've claimed the session, please continue.

Liza Deischer: yes, well I, going too

Liza Deischer: see you wol

Wol Euler: bye for now. Take care, be happy and productive, and objective :)

Liza Deischer: we will :-)

Milos Leidesdorff: Well, nice speaking with you all, as short as it has been

Calvino Rabeni: Likewise Milos

Wol Euler: nice meeting you, Milos, come back any time. Though the times of 1am 7am 1pm 7pm would be best :)

Milos Leidesdorff: What time zone? If you don't mind my asking

Calvino Rabeni: That is SLT, but the group is international

Liza Deischer: nice meeting you milos

Calvino Rabeni: 4 x per day, different people

Liza Deischer: see you

Liza Deischer: bfn

Calvino Rabeni: I've got to go also, see you later

Milos Leidesdorff: Take care, both of you. Nice to meet you as well.

Calvino Rabeni: bye

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