2010.03.16 19:00 - Language

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Had to download/install 2nd Life Beta Viewer update
    Eos Amaterasu: brb
    Archmage Atlantis: kk
    Eos Amaterasu: back
    Archmage Atlantis: qb
    Archmage Atlantis: wb
    Eos Amaterasu: /me sees birds flying
    Archmage Atlantis: Wo you have a topic in your awareness.....I have 2, but the blending of topics is often more illuminatin
    Eos Amaterasu: Go ahead, and we'll see what happens :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, the first is what does it mean to be rude
    Eos Amaterasu: /me listens
    Archmage Atlantis: Well I was told by someone close to me that I am often rude........that does not offend me.......I just led me ask others I care about if they felt the same way, and if so to give me examples
    Archmage Atlantis: It was interesting to collect that data.......
    Archmage Atlantis: And to realize I have friends who are willing to share their own "truth" with me
    Eos Amaterasu: I suppose there's your own experience of something, and then listening to your friend's experience of it, listening to their truth
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, but I can't know their experience if they get angry and walk away
    Eos Amaterasu: But isn't that in itself an experience, or their expression of what they are experiencing?
    Archmage Atlantis: Good question......to me it is running away
    Archmage Atlantis: To them it seems to be other
    Eos Amaterasu: I've been realizing more lately that there is a back and forth process with the world that's possible
    Archmage Atlantis: I guess my 1s and 0s on this are there is dialog, or there is conflict.
    Eos Amaterasu: you put something out, and then listen to, or watch, or otherwise experience, what comes back, how it responds
    Eos Amaterasu: there's a living quality to that
    Eos Amaterasu: like with a person :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: and often it is with people :-)
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    Eos Amaterasu: I think PaB has that quality, or experimentation, going out, and listening
    Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.
    Archmage Atlantis: The second thing I was told is that I often use words people don't recognize.......and it gets tiring to listen to things one doesn't quite understand.......also that I often speak in puzzles or riddles.....that I should think of my audience and say things in words they understand
    Archmage Atlantis: Yet I don't know how I am supposed to know what another understands
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Cal
    Archmage Atlantis: Greetings Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Helo, eos and archmage
    Archmage Atlantis: Well those were my 2 topics
    Archmage Atlantis: Just thought a lot about them over the last 2 weeks
    Calvino Rabeni: sorry i missed that
    Eos Amaterasu: Cal, Arch's first topic was:
    Eos Amaterasu: [19:05 Archmage Atlantis: Well, the first is what does it mean to be rude
    Eos Amaterasu: [19:16 Archmage Atlantis: The second thing I was told is that I often use words people don't recognize......
    Calvino Rabeni: do you have a large vocabulary?
    Archmage Atlantis: If you are asking me Cal, it appears some think so........to me it is just picking the word that has the best nuance of a meaning
    Calvino Rabeni: it's hard to discriminate between those kinds of word uses without examples
    Eos Amaterasu: Some might find "nuance" foreign
    Archmage Atlantis: It has relevance to me because my partner and I had a discussion about the major divisions in English
    Calvino Rabeni: Spanning different language cultures adds more complexity. But assuming all have the same native language makes it easier
    Archmage Atlantis: I said that there is British English, American English and Australian English
    Calvino Rabeni: Do we all have some form of English as a primary language?
    Archmage Atlantis: He did not disagree, but proposed there will be a 4th division.....Internet English
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, LMAY
    Eos Amaterasu: (English is my primary language)
    Calvino Rabeni: LMAO rather
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you describe the points that were at issue in that discussion, Arch?
    Archmage Atlantis: He speaks Finnish as his childhood language, learned to speak and write Japanese.....is much more fluid in his ability to switch languages
    Archmage Atlantis: I spent 5 years trying to learn Spanish, 4 trying to learn German........and I might as well have studied anything else
    Archmage Atlantis: Hours in the language labs trying to learn how to speak and understand

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    Archmage Atlantis: The point is, when we come here and many other places of intellectual conversation, I got lucky....English is sort of the standard.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm much more ethnocentric than many of the attendees of PAB, who don't have English primary
    Calvino Rabeni: So I have it easy :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But I do try to adjust, and it changes my verbal style
    Calvino Rabeni: Not always with the intended effects however
    Archmage Atlantis: I think that being ethnocentric causes me to miss thing that are being said.
    Calvino Rabeni: I've gotten feedback about being formal - perhaps because I avoid slang
    Calvino Rabeni: and idioms, which are pretty regional
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I also favor the latin-ate english words, since they overlap with more of the other languages
    Archmage Atlantis: Oh, that is a bad habit of mine....to use slang from the 1920s - 50s
    Calvino Rabeni: Darn tootin'
    Archmage Atlantis: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: I had a manager at work one time, who spoke the Queen's english and its variatios
    Calvino Rabeni: so I found myself on the other end of the mismatch
    Archmage Atlantis: I'm not saying it is a problem to be solved.....just an awareness to have
    Calvino Rabeni: I had to ask - what is a "bin lorrie"?
    Calvino Rabeni: Eventually we translated the term to American as "garbage truck"
    Eos Amaterasu: For the Brits, cars have boots :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: And bonnets?
     Archmage Atlantis: My favorite example of that is the British hotel manager who told a young lady on a college sponsered trip
    Archmage Atlantis: When she asked for a wake up call
    Archmage Atlantis: That he would be up in the morning to "knock her UP :)
    Eos Amaterasu: That joke requires two cultures :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Exactly Eos, and we have far more cultures that that in our meetings on SL
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a collection of such mismatches
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.byteright.com/odd/index.cgi?md=read;id=594
    Archmage Atlantis: I shall look at that, thank you Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: "If you think your room is dirty, you should see the manager"
    Calvino Rabeni: (notice on wall at a hotel)
    Archmage Atlantis: smile...that took me a moment
    Eos Amaterasu: you fall into the spaces between things

     

    Play as Being 15 minute bell: Please observe 90 seconds of silence.

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    Calvino Rabeni: There are influences of tonality changing meaning in English - it would be a little difficult to note them in a text chat
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, the ability to listen to oneself while talking is a language skill that probably varies a lot between different individuals
    Calvino Rabeni: self observation I mean, during verbal activity
    Archmage Atlantis: What I have read about most Asian languages is that words have many meaning depending on inflection and tonality.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is the same in English at the interpretation level, not the word level
    Calvino Rabeni: I liked learning Thai, which is a tonal language, because of that difference
    Eos Amaterasu: can you say more about listening to oneself while talking?
    Calvino Rabeni: but then I was puzzled, what tones can do for emphasis, if they are already used for word selection
    Calvino Rabeni: do they do double duty then, or are there other sources for emphasis?
    Calvino Rabeni: I didn't get fluent enough to have any idea
    Eos Amaterasu: were you able to "read" Thai speakers?
    Calvino Rabeni: Probably not - and they had to accommodate me with simplicity and slow speed
    Calvino Rabeni: But my goal was just to do the first phase, to get barely conversational in a short time
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm in awe (or smethinglke that) of the european members of PAB and their easy use of english here
    Archmage Atlantis: Me also Cal
    Eos Amaterasu: And of being able to use several languages relatively fluently
    Calvino Rabeni: The first time I heard Yak on a voice channel, I was surprised to learn later he was german first
    Calvino Rabeni: I thought british
    Archmage Atlantis: I wonder how much it would change our impressions of PaB meetings if they were voice?
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Kirshan
    Eos Amaterasu: Have you been to Play as Being before?
    KirShan Andel: sometimes, though i only log rarely in sl
    KirShan Andel: hi everybody =)
    Eos Amaterasu: We have been talking about languages, and vocabulary
    Calvino Rabeni: Hy KirShan
    Archmage Atlantis: Being a math geek......( long time ago ) ......I like symbols even more than words as containers for complex ideas :)
    KirShan Andel: i'll take my leave for today, have a good chat, see you some other day
    KirShan Andel: my apologies :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
    Archmage Atlantis: Take care Kir
    Calvino Rabeni: That was an interesting avatar - the appearance of a young amanita muscaria mushroom, with eyes
    Calvino Rabeni: Anime Amanita
    Archmage Atlantis: Grins

     

    Play as Being 15 minute bell: Please observe 90 seconds of silence.

     

    Archmage Atlantis: The hour is ending and there is a life performance of Celtic music I wish to attend.......so I will say my goobyes........and gracious thanks to both of you,. Cal and Eos, for an intelligent conversation :)
     Calvino Rabeni: Very welcome, Arch

     Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.

     Eos Amaterasu: I will also turn in, Cal
     Calvino Rabeni: Sleep well, or whatever's next :)
     Eos Amaterasu: Hope so.... :-)
     Calvino Rabeni: :)
     Eos Amaterasu: Travelling to Princeton tomorrow
     Eos Amaterasu: Have you considered the SF retreat, btw?
     Calvino Rabeni: Nice - enjoy
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe I'd like it
    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, ok, bye!


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