2010.04.01 01:00 - Playing With Stuckness

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino and myself and we had a long interesting discussion, most of it centred around 'The Book of Not Knowing'

    What the book is about:   

        Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
        Zen Arado: how are you?
        Calvino Rabeni: Greetings Zen!
        Calvino Rabeni: Somewhat hazy, it is late here
        Calvino Rabeni: And you?
        Zen Arado: I'm a bit hazy too - too early in the morning!
        Calvino Rabeni: A matched pair then - too early and too late
        Zen Arado: I have got to page 246 in BONK
        Zen Arado: book of not knowing :)
        Zen Arado: it's a good book
        Zen Arado: I agree with most of what he says
        Calvino Rabeni: I like the colloquial style
        Zen Arado: I see the foolish behaviour patterns
        Zen Arado: yes - I think American writers have a direct, chatty way of putting things
        Zen Arado: no pomposity and big words
        Calvino Rabeni: My favorite part of the book is on contemplation, starting P 437
        Zen Arado: is that like meditation?
           Calvino Rabeni: No, contemplation is focused inquiry
        Zen Arado: inquiry into what?
        Calvino Rabeni: Anything.
        Calvino Rabeni: This book is about self, mind, and consciousness, but that should not be considered the limits of the possible inquiries addressed by this book
        Zen Arado: on what is true - on what truly exists in this moment - he seems to be saying (just glancing at that section)
        Calvino Rabeni: That section is the method of the book, I think, in a nutshell
        Zen Arado: I notice he advises asking 'Who am I'
        Calvino Rabeni: At the school, there were many applications besides that basic classic question
        Zen Arado: I often do that one in meditation
        Calvino Rabeni: So when the focus was on "who am i", the retreat was called a Contemplation Intensive
        Calvino Rabeni: But the general study represented by this book was called the Mind Course
        Calvino Rabeni: And the contemplation was applied to other domains
        Zen Arado: it is a good method for seeing through the self construct maybe
        Calvino Rabeni: such as communication and relationships, for instance, or skillful action

    The background to Ralston's teaching methods and physical components:

     Zen Arado: what did you do at the scholl? Was it like a retreat ?
        Zen Arado: school
        Calvino Rabeni: I spent 3-4 evenings a week at the school, for several years, and attended classes and workshops there
        Zen Arado: I see
        Calvino Rabeni: Also there were some retreats in a zendo-like setting
        Zen Arado: it seems very zen-like to me
        Calvino Rabeni: There was a 7-day (I think) contemplation intensive, and a longer 13-day one with more than just "who am I?"
        Calvino Rabeni: And also a boxing camp (about a week)
        Zen Arado: Soto Zen seems less focussed
        Zen Arado: you more or less just see what comes up
        Calvino Rabeni: This was pretty methodical - depending on the application area
        Zen Arado: did you read any of his other books?
        Calvino Rabeni: I read one of his early books - before I knew about the school - I'd picked it up in a "new-age" bookstore
        Zen Arado: there is one about 'Zen Being 'or something
        Calvino Rabeni: based on previous studies, I had the impression he knew what he was talking about - that it would not be mostly unverifiable abstractions - and that it came from experience
        Calvino Rabeni: Based on that, I started going to the school with a friend
        Zen Arado: he gives physical exercises too I think -
        Calvino Rabeni: After that, I have to confess, I never read the books, because why read, when you have the physical and oral instruction in person ...
        Calvino Rabeni: Although we did "study" by taking notes and doing homework
        Zen Arado: I would love to study martial arts or even do Tai Chi
        Zen Arado: but even Tai Chi is pretty difficult for me
        Calvino Rabeni: You could do qigong, regardless of your physical ability
        Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe katsugen
        Zen Arado: isn't there a physical component to that too?
        Calvino Rabeni: That is a body energy practice we did at the aikido school
        Calvino Rabeni: (a different school; earlier time for me)
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, there is a physical component
        Zen Arado: if there is any physical component at all I struggle
        Zen Arado: such a limited range of movements I have
        Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, it need not be difficult, nor require a range of motion
        Zen Arado: but you can visualise doing movements I think
        Calvino Rabeni: Even if one is capable of moving say 6 inches slowly, that is enough to to body/mind practices
        Zen Arado: hard to find teachers for those disciplines in N.Ireland
        Zen Arado: could learn from a book maybe
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that may be true
        Calvino Rabeni: or perhaps a video
        Zen Arado: yes - good idea

    Various prejudices - we are not as free of them as we think perhaps:

    Zen Arado: there is a lot of antipathy against 'Eastern' practices in N.Ireland still I think
        Zen Arado: even meditation
        Zen Arado: Christians think it is devil worship
        Calvino Rabeni: You have some reservations also?
        Zen Arado: or associate it with TM a
        Zen Arado: no none at all
        Zen Arado: they used to say TM was worshipping Hindu gods in disguise !
        Calvino Rabeni: Somewhat misinformed
        Zen Arado: just prejudice
        Calvino Rabeni: In the Seventies in the USA there was a lot less tolerance of diversity of viewpoint
        Calvino Rabeni: In many ways, thus, for instance,if you were a socialist, you believed that religion was the opiate of the masses, and wouldn't think to meditate
        Zen Arado: yes and probably some parts are still like N.Ireland
        Calvino Rabeni: Or even a psychologist would be narrowly focused on his/her methodology to the exclusion of all else
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: IT's a general assumption of ideological purity - that can be found to be pervasive regardless of the particular belief system
        Zen Arado: I like the bit where Ralston talks about some people whose minds are 'obviously closed'
        Zen Arado: then he says 'you do the same thing'
        Zen Arado: and he is right :)
        Zen Arado: I have prejudices - just different ones
        Calvino Rabeni: It's not the beliefs per se - but the flexibility and openness of mind
        Zen Arado: yes and I flatter myself that I am open and reasonable
        Zen Arado: but, as he says, I am still protecting my conceptual self
        Calvino Rabeni: Being able to apprehend one's prejudices seems actually, pretty close to - or at least halfway to - being able to relax them
        Zen Arado: yes - you would think so
        Calvino Rabeni: The dearly held prejudices are never offered for possible sacrifice
        Zen Arado: but I still seem so trapped in them
        Zen Arado: even see the suffering they cause
        Calvino Rabeni: If that is true, then you also have some strategies with respect to them
        Zen Arado: some core beliefs I need to lose
        Zen Arado: I have heard about that idea other places
        Zen Arado: maybe the core belief generates the others that protect the self image
        Zen Arado: I suppose the answer to 'who am I' is - I don't know
        Zen Arado: we don't need to 'be' anybody
        Calvino Rabeni: what I believe is that the ability to change these things is based first on good observation; whereas good observation is hampered by general emotional attitudes such as wanting things like purity or freedom or to be a good person, etc.
        Calvino Rabeni: I think ralston's book does a credible job of separating those two things
        Calvino Rabeni: The business of seeing what is, separated from the desires to "be some way" or "not be something"

    The urge to find, and associated dangers of looking for, a neat answer or formula:

        Calvino Rabeni: In a certain sense, different spiritual traditions have a mixup between perceiving what is, and     the general urge for salvation
        Zen Arado: yes - a lot of the suffering is driven by desires
        Calvino Rabeni: That is, the practice is not motivated by "seeing what is" but by "gotta be saved"
        Zen Arado: a desire for an answer to problems of life
        Zen Arado: for a deeper security
        Calvino Rabeni: In other words, all the self-suvival stuff is at work in how the "path" is approached
        Calvino Rabeni: RIght, an answer, a solution, a shortcut, a deliverance
        Calvino Rabeni: All natural to want, of course
        Zen Arado: yes - so have to be careful not to apply that kind of thinking to my present spiritual practice
        Calvino Rabeni: But it is tricky to take that kind of desire, and use it as a motivation for practice
        Zen Arado: the quest for enlightenment can take on a role like that
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it's the same feeling of subtle or not-so-subtle desperation

    Playing with our stuckness:

        Zen Arado: Pema said something about just playing with what happens
        Calvino Rabeni: And I'm not saying that can be "dropped" however
        Calvino Rabeni: Right, used playfully
        Zen Arado: it's a pervasive thing this looking for an answer
        Calvino Rabeni: RIght, I liked his point about just playing with as many degrees of freedom that you can find
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: not being so predictable
        Calvino Rabeni: Being stuck, seems to include not accepting what is, along with not knowing how to be different - or perhaps, knowing but not being willing to "do"
        Zen Arado: yes - I looked up that lojong slogan last night
        Zen Arado: surprised that one of the commentators said is is bad to be consistent
        Calvino Rabeni: Lojong is very pragmatic - not theoretical at all
        Zen Arado: consistency is usually though of as good?
        Calvino Rabeni: Right - don't be consistent means - be flexible
        Calvino Rabeni: It means, follow the essence, not the form
        Calvino Rabeni: Or if it were about "law" it would be - attend to the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law
        Calvino Rabeni: You can see that lojong integrates a lot of kind of opposite principles
        Zen Arado: yes - Osho says 'What is consistency? Consistency means living according to the past. '
        Calvino Rabeni: because as a pragmatic approach, I would say it is a form of dialectial thinking, not formal thinking
        Calvino Rabeni: One could be consistently "present" I suppose
        Zen Arado: I have a habit of expecting others to be consistent too
        Zen Arado: another way of trying to freeze reality I guess
        Calvino Rabeni: A recipe for disillusionment I would hazard
        Zen Arado: so true :)
        Zen Arado: especially with women
        Zen Arado: :)

    A discussion of gender roles:

        Calvino Rabeni: But you might also look at this in terms of cultural expectation and gender roles
        Calvino Rabeni: A man is expected to "keep his word"
        Calvino Rabeni: And "tell the truth"
        Calvino Rabeni: and "be reliable"
        Calvino Rabeni: and "not change his mind"
        Zen Arado: yes and be 'straight' as they say in N.Ireland
        Calvino Rabeni: and "be predictable"
        Calvino Rabeni: and "not be flightly" or "wishy-washy"
        Zen Arado: politicians are criticized for changing their minds on an issue
        Zen Arado: you would think they should be flexible
        Zen Arado: but women are allowed to be more flighty ?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they are expected to have already decided the right thing in advance, and not to make mistakes, and not to cooperate flexibly with anyone
        Calvino Rabeni: I think those "standards" are rather different for women, at least in the cultures I'm familiar with
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: feminine cultural expectations are different
        Zen Arado: wonder if women adopt the role that is expected of them
        Zen Arado: when they would prefer to use the more 'manly' expectations listed above
        Calvino Rabeni: These roles have been analyzed in an interesting way by David Deida
        Zen Arado: oh?
        Calvino Rabeni: Which some women seem to like, while others feel really put off but it
        Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Way-Superior-M...mm_pap_title_0
        Zen Arado: ah must look at that
        Zen Arado: yes there are expectations by the opposite sex of how the other should behave
        Zen Arado: read somewhere lately that womwn are starting to prefer men to be more 'feminine'
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes. Check out the table of contents in that book - you'll get the basic idea that it is about how to work around those expectations
        Zen Arado: not as macho as they used to like
        Calvino Rabeni: I think that preference you are referring to is past its peak, now we might expect it to go the other way
        Calvino Rabeni: There is a sketch of a developmental theory involved in this also
        Zen Arado: then people say 'be yourself'
        Zen Arado: whatever that is
        Zen Arado: be authentic as Ralston stresses
        Calvino Rabeni: It posits three stages - (1) rigid conventional, (2) integration as "compromise" with loss of defintiion, (3) a flexible post-conventional stage that allows dynamic interplay of differences
        Calvino Rabeni: I'm talking about the Deida book not the Ralston book, in that last comment
        Zen Arado: and (3) is the best strategy?
        Zen Arado: but a lot of these books involve playing some kind of role
        Calvino Rabeni: With any idealized developmental or evolutionary schema I would hesitate to call any of the different modes "better" or "worse"
        Zen Arado: adopting a behaviour pattern that might not sit well with us
        Calvino Rabeni: Not recommended, unless it "evolves" organically
        Zen Arado: yes - but it might not
        Calvino Rabeni: You can't in general "adopt a behavior" wiithout actually becoming a different person
        Zen Arado: yes

    Self-help books and authenticity:

        Calvino Rabeni: or else it's probably neither stable nor authentic
        Zen Arado: that's where a lot of self help books go wrong isn't it?
        Calvino Rabeni: I would agree with that - there's a lot of the "quick fix" and "sure fire recipe" involved
        Calvino Rabeni: Imagining something can be an aid, but it doesn't make it so
        Zen Arado: even if a strategy worked in attracting a woman for instance, you wouldn't be able to keep up the strategy in the long run
        Zen Arado: expect that happens quite often
        Calvino Rabeni: Right, the question is about what is "sustainable"
        Calvino Rabeni: Although also, maybe "the long run" is an expectation also
        Zen Arado: so could we become a kind of 'neutral' being?
        Calvino Rabeni: That is somethihg I doubt
        Zen Arado: with no quirks at all?
        Calvino Rabeni: I really think, the "blank slate" view of human nature is an unrealistic ideal

    Long- term relationships benefits:

        Zen Arado: yes - why expect long relationships?
        Calvino Rabeni: Well, some may want them
        Calvino Rabeni: And some may not :)
        Zen Arado: I even wonder about the institute of marriage
        Zen Arado: isn't it anther way of seeking security?
        Calvino Rabeni: As perhaps has anyone who ever actually tried it :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Security is good - if not the purpose of life
        Zen Arado: you think?
        Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes a long term relationship supports depth
        Zen Arado: but groundlessness is the true nature of life isn't it
        Zen Arado: yes we long for it and then find it repressive though
        Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't appear to be the way of nature
        Zen Arado: peole aren't so willing to commit themselves nowadays
        Zen Arado: especially as we live so long
        Calvino Rabeni: You mean, commit to a marriage?
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: for better or for worse etc
        Calvino Rabeni: Hopefully one would commit to healthy lifestyle practices, long term learning, and so forth
        Zen Arado: ideally
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, one could analyze the institution of marriage up one side and down the other
        Calvino Rabeni: Finding any number of great and/or unfortunate things about it
        Zen Arado: and then marry a woman because she has big boobs :)
        Zen Arado: I seem to get into such hopeless romances
        Calvino Rabeni: And marry a man because he has a thick wallet
        Zen Arado: :)
        Zen Arado: that's more sensible though
        Calvino Rabeni: Well the big boobs are still pretty popular here in SL, I've noticed
        Calvino Rabeni: Even if they are made only of pixels
        Zen Arado: yep
        Zen Arado: we men are still driven by such basic instincts
        Calvino Rabeni: (still thinking about hopeless romances)
        Calvino Rabeni: As are the women

    The question of spiritual authority:

        Calvino Rabeni: So one question I have about gender roles in the UK versus USA
        Calvino Rabeni: is about the notion of spiritual authority
        Calvino Rabeni: So is there a division of labour in the paradigm family / marraige relationship with respect to which person is "in charge of" the spiritual activities of the couple / family?
        Zen Arado: can only speak of N.Ireland
        Calvino Rabeni: Or in another way of looking at it - do the stereotypes say, women are more "spiritual" than men, or vice versa?
        Calvino Rabeni: Sure, how does it look in the places you know?
        Zen Arado: I think very often women follow their husband's lead regarding spirituality
        Zen Arado: not sure whether women or men would be more interested in the spiritual direction their kids take though
        Calvino Rabeni: And what about the "indoctrination" of the young? Same question
        Calvino Rabeni: That is where I was headed
        Zen Arado: Christian kids usually have Christian parents
        Zen Arado: as I noticed when i was a Christian
        Zen Arado: lot of indoctrination goes on
        Calvino Rabeni: Although basically everybody in the culture accepts essentially christian values, in some secularized form, even if they are not religiously observant
        Zen Arado: wonders what I would tell kids about Buddhism if I had any
        Calvino Rabeni: Could be a thought experiment
        Calvino Rabeni: But actually having them might shift the significance of those values
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: kids tend to copy their parents anyway
        Zen Arado: if they saw you meditate they might want to try it
        Zen Arado: I would say that England is becoming very atheistic
        Calvino Rabeni: If they weren't hyped up by eating "chocolate frosted sugar bombs"
        Zen Arado: :)

    Atheism, secularism, science and Buddhism:

        Zen Arado: I had an English girlfriend who called herself a Dawkins atheist
        Calvino Rabeni: Sounds awkward
        Zen Arado: science is really her religion
        Calvino Rabeni: True
        Zen Arado: they don't see that though
        Calvino Rabeni: also true
        Calvino Rabeni: and they don't see their basic christianity either
        Zen Arado: maybe
        Calvino Rabeni: My uncle thinks he's an atheist
        Zen Arado: lots of Christian values still there
        Calvino Rabeni: And he doesn't accept that he's a secularized culturally christian person
        Zen Arado: there is a lot of discussion about Stephen Batchelor's new book
        Calvino Rabeni: because he thinks, that his values and beliefs, are only the things he has had time to "think" and "decide" about - not the tacit values he's never considered
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: BONK book good at uncovering thses assumptions
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, Ralston always resisted being a "guru" or having people carry off his ideas in a tidy package as if they "understood"
        Zen Arado: there is a SL group called Skeptical Buddhists
        Calvino Rabeni: Because neither supports "not knwoing"
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: ever been to that group's meetings?
        Calvino Rabeni: No, have you?
        Zen Arado: yes go often
        Calvino Rabeni: What is the nature of it?
        Zen Arado: they don't like religious trappings of Buddhism
        Zen Arado: Batchelor's 'Buddhism without Beliefs is like their bible
        Calvino Rabeni: So what beliefs are left, after the "beliefs" are taken away?
        Zen Arado: ah the basic things are still there
        Zen Arado: like impermanence, no-self and 4 noble truths
        Zen Arado: just no chanting or ceremonial things
        Zen Arado: and no belief in reincarnation
        Calvino Rabeni: So do they identify ritual with belief?
        Zen Arado: don't think so - but they just don't like the religious overtones
        Calvino Rabeni: Kind of like grappling with Idolatry in christianity?
        Zen Arado: especially from Tibetan form
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: hell realms and bardos and that kind of stuff
        Calvino Rabeni: It must seem arbitrary and over-complicated then?
        Zen Arado: yes and unnecessary
        Zen Arado: but worry it has to fit scientific ideas
        Zen Arado: I do that is
        Zen Arado: seems you could be giving scientific ideas the final authority
        Zen Arado: we have a lot of tacit scientific worldview assumptions too I think nowadays
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, although it seems, many people think pretty categorically - as in being "for" or "against' these worldviews *in general*
        Calvino Rabeni: Or regarding them as incommensurable
        Calvino Rabeni: and then wanting to take sides
        Zen Arado: instead of fitting them together
        Zen Arado: Batchelor is promoting his new book a lot lately
        Zen Arado: http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/confe...heist-10050697
        Zen Arado: pushing the atheist slant a lot more too I think
        Zen Arado: I might buy it some time
        Calvino Rabeni: My impression is that the Kira Institute would support some combination of both scientific and religious views
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: Without defining exactly what that means
        Calvino Rabeni: I suppose it's enough of an accomplishment to bring such a diverse range of people into dialogue
        Zen Arado: true
        Zen Arado: How Buddhism and Science relate to eac other is a big topic
        Calvino Rabeni: You're interested in that combination, I guess
        Zen Arado: well - it keeps coming up
        Zen Arado: can't ignore it
        Calvino Rabeni: Not your personal interest then?
        Zen Arado: well I suppose it is interesting to me
        Zen Arado: you probably find the Buddhism/psychology interface more interesting?
        Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested in neurophilosophy, consciousness studies, and the contributions that can be made to it by both western and buddhist phenomenology and psychology
        Calvino Rabeni: However that to some degree, puts strain on the more "purist" forms of both buddhism and phenomenology
        Zen Arado: neurophilosophy = philosophy of mind?
        Calvino Rabeni: well, I'd say it is an effort to naturalize the philosphy of mind within an essentially scientific view
        Zen Arado: ok I see
        Calvino Rabeni: And to correlate or integrate the observations from neurology with and against phenomenology
        Zen Arado: you study it in a formal way?
        Calvino Rabeni: So that agenda might not appeal to people who think the essence of those disciplines (buddhist and western phenomenology) are rooted in a transcendentalism
        Zen Arado: I mean for an academic qualification?
        Calvino Rabeni: No, I am an amateur at virtually everything
        Calvino Rabeni: :)
        Zen Arado: academia isn't everything
        Zen Arado: I studied philosophy quite formally but got disillusioned by it
        Zen Arado: now I am getting interested again through phenomenology
        Calvino Rabeni: From my perspective, I would suspect that buddhist phenomenology is compromised by being purposed as a doctrine of liberation
        Zen Arado: but O don't want any more formal academic study
        Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense
        Zen Arado: I don't know enough about it
        Zen Arado: but hope to read more when I get time
        Calvino Rabeni: Phenomenology is extremely varied, it seems, from my surveys so far
        Zen Arado: pity we lost the class here
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Zen Arado: was good motivator
        Calvino Rabeni: I've been reading about the controversies and viewponts surrounding naturalization
        Calvino Rabeni: It is something I currently find interesting
        Zen Arado: naturalization?
        Calvino Rabeni: I'm not so sure the class could have been very effective without concerted out-of-class study
        Zen Arado: no - all these things need homework
        Calvino Rabeni: Naturalization as the effort to reconcile phenomenology with a generally scientific worldview, rather than grounding it in something like transcendental idealism
        Zen Arado: did you get the link to a phenomenology lecture that Eliza posted on Twitter?
        Calvino Rabeni: No, I don't recall it
        Zen Arado: on YouTube
        Zen Arado: sec
        Calvino Rabeni: actually I think I bookmarked it yes
        Calvino Rabeni: thanks
        Zen Arado: ok
        Zen Arado: worth watching I think
        Zen Arado: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQFagq_MzZU

    Abstractions, art and concepts:

        Calvino Rabeni: I just had a basic perceptual insight about SL during that pause - not sure I like it... that the   clouds from the pool are not actually formed like swirling vapours, but are a bunch of separate floating circles
        Calvino Rabeni: Now I might not be able to go back to seeing vapours
        Zen Arado: hehe
        Zen Arado: I was reducing photos into contours to make an abstract from yesterday
        Calvino Rabeni: And I suppose it is an ethical mistake to point it out :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Sorry
        Zen Arado: no that's what abstraction is
        Zen Arado: seeing the basic underlying qualities of things
        Calvino Rabeni: Not a good idea in general ?
        Zen Arado: I used to paint flowers and shrubs a lot because I liked the colours
        Zen Arado: so now I just paint the colours
        Calvino Rabeni: Because if you accept that many "qualities" are emergent events, then they have no basic underlying existence
        Zen Arado: but aren't we doing the same thing with ourselves?
        Zen Arado: stripping back the inessential concepts?
        Zen Arado: or at least realizing their existence and influence on us
        Calvino Rabeni: A purely aesthetic choice, perhaps
        Zen Arado: a 'truer more authentic being underneath'
        Calvino Rabeni: I don't see it that way
        Zen Arado: for art yes
        Calvino Rabeni: The fog on the pond here, is important to the effect of the place
        Calvino Rabeni: and my deconstructing it into circles, destroys that effect
        Zen Arado: yes art has a different aim perhaps
        Zen Arado: that of pleasing the eye
        Zen Arado: though that is only one aim
        Calvino Rabeni: The "eye" means rather, the "heart"
        Calvino Rabeni: which actually means, the "world"
        Zen Arado: so long as you can deconstruct AND reconstruct it's ok ?
        Calvino Rabeni: You might tempt me into agreement with that
        Zen Arado: like someone learning to read music scores
        Zen Arado: but still enjoying the music
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes both are necessary in that case, as in many other cases of skillful action
        Zen Arado: and reading the scores can enhance the enjoyment of the music
        Zen Arado: a deeper knowing
        Calvino Rabeni: on the other hand, I pity certain "audiophiles" who can't hear the music over the noise and harmonic distortion and etc.
        Zen Arado: yes - like hi fi enthusiasts - but they get away from the artistry into technical stuff
        Zen Arado: I found I didn't enjoy being in houses I built in SL because I kept seeing things that could be improved
        Zen Arado: better to just buy a prefab and enjoy!
        Calvino Rabeni: The doctrine of the authority of the composer was part of the evolution of the concept of music
        Calvino Rabeni: Well, I know some carpenters who seem to like their RL houses
        Calvino Rabeni: flaws and all, apparently

    (thought Cal had said SL houses here)
    Zen Arado: yes - and they sit and make mods while they speak to you :)
        Zen Arado: maybe I am too perfectionist though
        Zen Arado: hey Cal - I have been here nearly three hours
        Calvino Rabeni: If that's true, maybe you can get help ... have you considered adoption
        Calvino Rabeni: :)
        Zen Arado: :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is unreasonably late here
        Zen Arado: it's interesting talking to you
        Calvino Rabeni: Likewise, thanks for the discussions
        Zen Arado: you too
        Calvino Rabeni: Good day then
        Zen Arado: I'm not so busy as usual today anyway because some of my usual activities were suspended over Easter
        Zen Arado: yes have a good sleep
        Zen Arado: see you later perhaps
        Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, maybe at the "anniversary party"
        Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now
        Zen Arado: yes bye
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