2010.04.10 07:00 - Laziness and "should"

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    Eliza Madrigal: :::looks around:::

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi there Pema :))

    Pema Pera: hehe, behind a pillar

    Eliza Madrigal: sneaky

    Pema Pera: sleepy

    Eliza Madrigal: :) Its quite early for you in California

    Pema Pera: just got up, 7 am here in San Francisco

    Pema Pera: but very convenient to be in SLT

    Pema Pera: for once no problems with computing what time it is

    Pema Pera: hi Gaya!

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :))

    Eliza Madrigal imagines Pema to have less problem computing time than most of us ;-)

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza and Pema :)

    Pema Pera: well, but he is lazy too . . . .

    Pema Pera: like most of us

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Gaya Ethaniel wonders what 'lazy' means ...

    Pema Pera: Good do see you again Gaya

    Pema Pera: and hi Sharon!, and Darren!

    Eliza Madrigal: You know, that's a good question... I see it come up from time to time in the logs... "What is lazy"

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon and Darren :)

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Darren and Sharon :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :)

    Darren Islar: hi all

    Pema Pera: lazy can be many things, I s'pose

    Pema Pera: all depending on context . . . .

    Darren Islar: even when you're busy

    Eliza Madrigal: everything to do with context... yes

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    Darren Islar: busy at one thing, lazy at another :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: hehe, yes

    Pema Pera: but often a refusal to face up to something, masqueraded as "just lazy"

    Pema Pera: and yes, Darren, fun isn't it!

    Darren Islar: :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: We often 'feel' lazy when we aren't, too... when life forces us to slow down...

    Eliza Madrigal: or we are coping/changing/working at other levels

    Darren Islar: mmhm, it is hard to work out what laziness exactly is

    Eliza Madrigal: and we look at our ideas of how things 'should' have gone ... sure there are many angles :)

    Darren Islar: or going by the definition of Pema, it is more difficult to find out when laziness occurs

    Pema Pera: yes, some "lazy" signals are very natural, and we should follow them; others are obstructions, and better to ignore -- life is complicated!

    Eliza Madrigal: Is it?! :)))))

    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i like here how you stated that Pema, it's true too

    Darren Islar: and where is that 'should'-feeling comming from

    Darren Islar: ouch

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :D

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Yakuzza

    Pema Pera: often we are too lazy to look clearly which type of laziness just came up, haha

    Yakuzza Lethecus: morning everyone

    Pema Pera: hi Yaku!

    Darren Islar: hi Yaku

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yaku :)

    Darren Islar: :-) @ Pema

    Pema Pera: and I think same with "should", Darren, some of the should feelings are obstacles, but some are a kind of natural wisdom of our body and mind

    Darren Islar: (toe hurts, for Yaku standing on it :-))

    Eliza Madrigal: ... thinking... it seems helpful to look at it as a moment-by-moment thing... the pull toward the 'easier' way... which sometimes is avoidance...

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i did that on intention :) *looks mean at darren*

    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes theres that Eliza

    Eliza Madrigal: and tonurture something which asks that

    Gaya Ethaniel: I think laziness [perhaps fear] about looking into "what types of laziness it is" is a tough one.

    Pema Pera: yes

    Pema Pera: and a funny one too

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    Pema Pera: when works needs to be done, the work can be hard work, but looking at how/when to do is no hard work at all -- yet we avoid that one most, and feel "lazy" doing so

    Pema Pera: we humans are funny . . .

    Darren Islar: if it is laziness as Eliza already said :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: I always wonder why I will do some things that take more time/energy, and leave little annoyances alone... walk around them for long periods of time

    Eliza Madrigal: yes, we're quite funny!

    Gaya Ethaniel: That applies to how the ordinary mind works and it has always baffled me ... :)

    Eliza Madrigal: hehhe

    --BELL--

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)

    Eliza Madrigal: that might be the healthiest attitude toward it, Gaya "the poor thing needs help"

    Darren Islar: Hi Zen :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)

    Gaya Ethaniel: It doesn't bother me much anymore but it's such a curious situation :)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen

    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Zen

    Gaya Ethaniel: lol the poor thing yeah ...

    Pema Pera: hi Zen!

    Zen Arado: Hello Gaya, Darren,Yaku,Sharon, Eloza

    Darren Islar: well at least you get more 'soft' inside, can open up things

    Zen Arado: Pema!

    Gaya Ethaniel: Well the poor thing is doing its best :)

    Pema Pera: yes, smiling about it is sometimes better, certainly better than trying to fight or manipulate or suppress it.

    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed :)

    Darren Islar: it can also be an excuse :-)

    Gaya Ethaniel: It's kind of sweet, don't you agree?

    Pema Pera: us, poor souls :)

    Darren Islar almost start to pitty himself :-)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

    Pema Pera: yes, Darren, and that all depends on the follow-up then

    Pema Pera: (about excuse)

    Darren Islar: right

    Eliza Madrigal considers acceptance... how difficult that can be when one feels so aware of limitations...

    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles at Zen, your cat is in the pond ^.^

    Pema Pera: =^+^=

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    Darren Islar: hmmmm funny, I should say limitations makes us look at ourselves with more compassion

    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes

    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, haha.. yes she looks more cozy on the cushion

    Pema Pera: :)

    Zen Arado: she doesn't like water

    Pema Pera: she's supposed to look *very* thin after having swum in the pond

    Eliza Madrigal: Few cats seem to :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Ive been feeling profoundly lazy, but I know where it comes from, and can accept it more, for that

    Zen Arado: I feel tired :)

    Zen Arado: what is the difference?

    Eliza Madrigal: a kind observation, Sharon

    SophiaSharon Larnia: its a bit of both for me atm, but they're not necessarily linked

    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, feeling tired can be many things too ... like laziness.

    Pema Pera: :)

    Zen Arado: it;s a good excuse for laziness :)

    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes hyper-busyness can seem a kind of laziness... hm, but I guess again its the same thing of not facing things directly...

    Zen Arado: busy but not doing the things we should....

    Pema Pera: (Zen, is there a way to call the cat over, to pet her head?)

    Eliza Madrigal: sure some would look at monks meditating for hours and think that's avoidance or laziness of some sort...

    Zen Arado: yes sure :)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: what is laziness ? is lazyness a decision to avoid something we learned something that we don't appreciate and it's not about becoming virtueous to do it through all the pain would we still not do something when we've learned to drop the non appreciation of that situation and when we don't see any sense in a particular situation is it really lazyness that makes us stop doing something since being active will usually have much better outcome on the long term, so is there true lazyness ?

    Darren Islar: a flying cat

    Darren Islar: :-)

    Pema Pera: poor thing, in the water again . . . .

    Pema Pera: oh hi there!

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: thinks about "dropping" dropping the cat into the water

    Pema Pera: (now what do I do, Zen?)

    Eliza Madrigal: hehe

    Zen Arado: you should get a request to pet her

    Pema Pera: not yet . . . .

    Pema Pera: poes poes poes

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sweet

    Pema Pera: ah, okay!

    Gaya Ethaniel: You have issues with laziness often Yaku?

    Pema Pera: I bet getting out of the water is higher priority for her than being petted though . . . .

    --BELL--

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    Darren Islar: oh, she is really drowning now

    Zen Arado: authenticity of laziness :)

    Eliza Madrigal has seen that there are times to slow or even stop .... invest some time to think in different ways

    Pema Pera: poor thing . . . .

    Pema Pera: can you rescue her, Zen?

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: maybe she's learning to like the water

    Pema Pera is pondering Yaku's link between laziness and lack of appreciation . . . .

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    Zen Arado: Hi Love:)

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Love :)

    Zen Arado: grab a seat

    Pema Pera: bye bye cat!

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Love, Nice to see you at PlayasBeing. Welcome :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Love

    Pema Pera: good morning, Love

    Eliza Madrigal: I'll give you a note about the group :)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, i sometimes have the feeling that lazyness describing something lazyness only describes the not to go deeper into the problem why ppl stop doing and are "lazy" describing somebody as lazy implies a form of guilt for the "lazy person" in my sense of the term

    Yakuzza Lethecus: it's complicated, because being non lazy will have always a better outcome, so lazyness is in itself irrational for me

    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed, it probably isn't what it seems :)

    Darren Islar still trying to figure out what Yaku means

    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm afraid I need to get back to RL. Nice seeing you all, have a good day!

    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually me too, it's hard to describe

    Pema Pera: but when you listen to the laziness, it may tell you some very useful information

    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Gaya :)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye

    Zen Arado: bye Gaya

    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Gaya!

    Darren Islar: :-) Yaku

    Pema Pera: bye Gaya!

    Darren Islar: bue Gaya

    Pema Pera: irrational can be quite rational . . . .

    Pema Pera: on another level

    Zen Arado: laziness is also just being?

    Zen Arado: we always think we should be 'doing'

    Yakuzza Lethecus: but what if we do something day by day and don't appreciate things as they happen and when we stop we call it lazyness, when somebody knows that i sit on the pc during the afternoon "they'll propably call me lazy"

    Zen Arado: but why worry what others think?

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don't know if it is just lazyness when i am here and think instead of working a 2nd job or something

    Zen Arado: this is less lazy than sitting watching TV

    SophiaSharon Larnia: being here is fulfilling a need for learing amybe

    Zen Arado: at least we are being active

    SophiaSharon Larnia: learning* maybe*

    Eliza Madrigal: yes it goes back to context...

    Eliza Madrigal: one can attentively watch something on tv and it open worlds... like last night with my son, watching "Life".... Jesus Christ lizards running along the water, waterfall frogs... amazing

    Love Faulkes: the criteria for lazyness has to be changed

    Yakuzza Lethecus: anykind of selfreflection could just be defined as "lazyness" when the interest in selfreflection can't and won't even be allowed to be communicated

    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i can't talk about pab to the ppl in my family

    SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe its called meitation :)

    Darren Islar: Interesting remark Zen about 'doing' since I hear teachers sometimes say we don't need to do anything

    SophiaSharon Larnia: meditation*

    Yakuzza Lethecus: and i live in the flat above my farther and his girlfriend

    Love Faulkes: it is the opposite of being active, but so much can be achieved with technology without the need to be active

    Zen Arado: yes - didn't somebody write a book called 'In praise of Idleness' or something?

    Darren Islar: I didn't figure out yet if I agree :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: "everything bad is good for you" I know was one title a few years ago....

    Pema Pera smiles at Sharon's solution

    SophiaSharon Larnia: grins

    Love Faulkes: that is so true Eliza lol

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: shouldn't make a rule of anything I'd think.. more being responsive?

    Zen Arado: words like 'laziness' seem so vague when you think about them

    Pema Pera: in general, the opposite of a great truth is a great truth: it's good to really work at improvement but then you overshoot, and you have to "just sit" and then you get too stiff and then you have to "do something" again . . . . .

    Love Faulkes: could albert einstien be discribed as lazy, he never did anyhting active?

    Darren Islar: I;m a bit late in my responses, but to me selfreflection is not laziness

    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Pema

    Zen Arado: thinking is seen as more lazy than physical activity

    Darren Islar: just sit and meditate is a very active thing to do

    Pema Pera: it can be

    Zen Arado: or learning to 'not do'

    Pema Pera thinking back at slumber sessions in meditation . . . .

    Eliza Madrigal: meditation can be walking or playing tennis perhaps I'd suppose...

    Eliza Madrigal: I'd guess I'd imagine...

    Eliza Madrigal: haha

    Darren Islar: yes Zen, but there is always awareness present, that is a profound activity

    --BELL--

    Darren Islar: meditation can be anything, it is not about sitting down

    Yakuzza Lethecus: nods

    Zen Arado: you work hard at not doing anything :)

    Darren Islar: :-)

    Darren Islar: I guess that is what those teachers mean :-)

    Pema Pera loves watching the misty pond during the 90 sec break here, letting thoughts dissolve like mist . . . . .

    Eliza Madrigal: It can be pausing for 9 seconds, every quarter hour... in the middle of wherever you are and whatever you're doing

    Zen Arado: a 'not doing' pause

    Eliza Madrigal: staying there, in a way... and doing from that?

    Zen Arado: being instead of doing

    Zen Arado: is so alien to us

    Darren Islar smiles at a silly thought that occurs in his mind:oops missed the ball, sorry guys i was doing my nine sec. :-)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: since the "lazyness" i have in mind has no real sense for me i often ask myself if calling yourself lazy or somebody else lazy is true lazyness because it stops from exploring the reason and problemcharacter of an individual nonappreaciated task and moment

    Zen Arado: you have to explore the laziness maybe

    Eliza Madrigal: wow, ya

    Zen Arado: what is t?

    Darren Islar: hmmm, in that case it is not important how you call it

    Zen Arado: what is causing it?

    Darren Islar: nice thought Yaku

    Zen Arado: is it really laziness?

    Zen Arado: or unwillingness to do something?

    Zen Arado: or a valid need for rest or change?

    Eliza Madrigal: (uh oh, no lines may be stuck and poof)

    Eliza Madrigal: hm, didn't show up for me but it seems quite profound... outward judgements deflecting, being a kind of (mental?) laziness

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i can't formulate a good everyday experience example but i even thought about the issue that i don't comment my chatlogs, i think about commenting my chatlogs all the time when i post them or don't post them and until they are posted, i even become jealous about ppl who seem to be able to structure every session and in the first place i had the in mind that "i am just lazy" but it even bothers me

    Eliza Madrigal: that's an every day experience example, Ya?

    Darren Islar: yes, and it isn't about laziness

    Eliza Madrigal nods

    Yakuzza Lethecus: but somebody else could say: that is

    Eliza Madrigal: its open wrestling with doubt perhaps, which takes a lot of energy

    Yakuzza Lethecus: nobody ever complained it's as soon as somebody would say: oh eliza is putting so much efford in it and yaku isn't for example he's so lazy, a bad person could do that

    Zen Arado: I am wrestling with honesty at the moment

    Eliza Madrigal: Eliza does it because she finds it restful

    Yakuzza Lethecus: the problem in real life is often when you can't show success but get stuck while investing the same amount of time

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Zen Arado: and you have to be honest about whether you feel like dong that Yaku

    Yakuzza Lethecus: so you relie on a postive supportive environment

    --BELL--

    Yakuzza Lethecus: other ppl then define if you are lazy, that would even be a kind of unsupportive

    Darren Islar: agreed Yaku we do judge easily

    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all, rl calls (from far away) :)

    Darren Islar: without even askig

    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye ssl :)

    Zen Arado: I didn't post comments at the start because I felt I was udging other people

    Pema Pera: bye Sharon!

    Darren Islar: bye sharon

    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now!

    Zen Arado: bye Sharon

    Eliza Madrigal: indeed Yakuzza

    Pema Pera: I have to get going too

    Eliza Madrigal: (And Bye Sharon)

    Darren Islar: bye Pema

    Zen Arado: bye Pema

    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pema

    Pema Pera: bye everybody!

    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema :)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: its an ongoing thought anyway

    Love Faulkes: bye

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i still contemplate on that issue a lot and will be for longer

    Darren Islar: and I need to say that I found out I;m often judgemental

    Eliza Madrigal: Oh sure, if we're honest, we don't even see half the judgements we are making in a given day....

    Zen Arado: but it makes reading the logs a lot easier for others

    Darren Islar: but luckely for the most of us and for you Yaku, you are far more then what you post

    Eliza Madrigal: all the measuring we do

    Darren Islar: and that is something we see too

    Zen Arado: yes

    Darren Islar: and can't say you're lazy

    Eliza Madrigal: yes, all part of it... seeing it

    Eliza Madrigal: the fixing, in a way, is even secondary

    Zen Arado: you can enhance people's comments too

    Darren Islar: but sometimes we get too much focused on what we think we cannot do

    Zen Arado: true Darren

    Darren Islar: and ask ourselves what other people think of that

    Darren Islar: would thinl

    Eliza Madrigal nods.... often that lingers longer....

    Zen Arado: we have to be true to ourselves and not worry so much what ohters think

    Eliza Madrigal: not the actual person thinking something/judging... but our worrying

    Eliza Madrigal: our expecting them too drains much energy

    Darren Islar: yes, because we are not only judgmental about other people but most of us about ourselves

    Zen Arado: very true Darren...

    Darren Islar: but it is not easy to get passed that

    Zen Arado: all comes down to ego again perhaps

    Zen Arado: yeah...easy to say but hard to practice

    Darren Islar: sometimes it feels like chewing gum that we can't get rid of

    Eliza Madrigal thinks of Rumi's Shopping Advice... He says "buy SOMETHING, exchange SOMETHING... be part of the flow" (paraphrased due to my memory) "It makes absolutely no difference what people think of you"

    Zen Arado: just to our egos

    Eliza Madrigal: basically, just jump in wholeheartedly and the ego will fall off on its own?

    Zen Arado: our 'self' survival mechanism

    Zen Arado: eventually we hope

    Eliza Madrigal: it will be exposed each time we challenge ourselves at least...

    Zen Arado: yes

    Darren Islar: survival mechanism is the most sticky gum

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Zen Arado: am reading about this atm

    Eliza Madrigal: yes Zen?

    Darren Islar: if you think you got rid of it, you find it somewhere else on your body

    Zen Arado: ego is about self survival

    Zen Arado: but it is too concerned with that

    Zen Arado: and then cuses problems

    Darren Islar: it means that ego is connected to fear or agression

    Eliza Madrigal: it be an obsessive ego which worries about dropping ego all the time... hehe, tricky

    Darren Islar: so I agree with you Zen

    Zen Arado: yes...anything that threatens it

    Darren Islar: everything that threatens over feeling of self value

    Zen Arado: don't think you ever totally get rid of it

    Zen Arado: but can ease it's grip maybe....

    Darren Islar: no, but you don't need to be attached to it

    Darren Islar: we need ego in order to survive

    Zen Arado: yes

    Love Faulkes: man is motivated by their ego, without it progress would be impossible

    Eliza Madrigal: I've got to get going.... a 'doing' list awaits

    Zen Arado: yes it motivates us too

    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, note from Reflection... if you go thank him for the link to optical illusions, Ya

    Zen Arado: bye Eliza

    Darren Islar: oh, I need to go too, forgot about the time

    Darren Islar: bye Eliza, Yaku and Zen

    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Darren, Thanks Everyone.... a practical session today!

    Zen Arado: bye Darren

    Love Faulkes: bye Eliza

    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you again Love

    Darren Islar: sorry, and Love

    Love Faulkes: nice to meet you too

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ya :)

    Love Faulkes: women have egos too but its known as vanity :)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone

    Zen Arado: think the male ego is worse :)

    Love Faulkes: bye

    Zen Arado: bye Yaku

    --BELL--

    Love Faulkes: you should see two women when there are no men around :)

    Zen Arado: I'll bet:)

    Zen Arado: did Eliza tell you thses conversations are recorded Love?

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