2010.04.13 01:00 - It takes two (at least)

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Wester Kiranov. The comments are by Wester Kiranov.

    Most of this session I talked with Aztlan Foss about relationships and how to change their terms,  and in the end Crusty Goldshark joined us and we talked about flying in dreams.

    Wester Kiranov: hi aztlan
    Aztlan Foss: hi Wester!
    Aztlan Foss: how are you?
    Wester Kiranov: fine, you?
    Aztlan Foss: I'm good too! just thinking about how to change a relationship
    Wester Kiranov: relationships are usually pretty hard to change while keeping the good stuff
    Wester Kiranov: but sometimes it's necessary, I admit
    Aztlan Foss: yeah there's always that fear of ruining a friendship but it doesn't necessarely have to be that way
    Aztlan Foss: it's not like much changes anyways
    Aztlan Foss: all of life is a big agreement amongst people
    Wester Kiranov: and non-people, I hope
    Aztlan Foss: maybe with non-people too
    Aztlan Foss: but it's easy to see how it is amongst people
    Aztlan Foss: just recently I had to put my cat down because I couldn't afford the vet bill to get him well
    Wester Kiranov: oh, I'm sorry
    Aztlan Foss: the vet was there "to help animals" but he wasn't supposed to help unless I could pay
    Aztlan Foss: so I couldn't pay and he couldn't help, so the choice was to put the cat to sleep. Also the companies owning the meds and such, they were in it to, because unless certain conditions were met they wouldn't give free meds
    Aztlan Foss: so, that moment all came down to all of us deciding that the cat should die. The vet could have just said "fuck it, I'm saving this creature"
    Aztlan Foss: out of an infinite amount of posibilities it all came down to that one choice where everyone agreed and honestly I think it was a sad choice that illustrates a lot of what is wrong with the way we make choices
    Wester Kiranov: My sister in law once paid a lot of money for an operation on her cat. People said she was crazy to do that
    Aztlan Foss: and relationships are the same way except if we're more aware of things we can make other agreements
    Aztlan Foss: they probably never had a cat
    Wester Kiranov: how are relatonships the same way?
    Aztlan Foss: relationships are an agreement
    Aztlan Foss: some stuff we consider obvious but it's just a choice
    Aztlan Foss: some stuff we say we're not supposed to do but it's just an agreement
    Aztlan Foss: like a friendship falling apart, that's just an agreement
    Wester Kiranov: agreement sounds so businesslike. is that what you want to say?
    Aztlan Foss: no not at all
    Wester Kiranov: ok
    Aztlan Foss: agreement is like "hey you want to go to a movie?" and the other person says "yeah!"
    --BELL--
    Aztlan Foss: you just agreed on something
    Wester Kiranov: That's a fun agreement. But if the relationship is a bit longer you also have to agree on not so fun things
    Aztlan Foss: i just mean to say sometimes we make an agreement on things with out really considering we had a choice to begin with
    Wester Kiranov: you mean we don't own our choices, or even don't realize we have them?
    Aztlan Foss: I mean we make collaborative choices and agreements with out realising there's better choices
    Aztlan Foss: for example, some people think that breakups always happen on bad terms
    Aztlan Foss: if two people believe that and they break up on bad terms it's not so much that it's the way it is, it's more that they agreed that that's how they will break up
    Aztlan Foss: those same people can make the breakup friendlier
    Aztlan Foss: it's a choice
    Aztlan Foss: any interaction is a choice or a compromise but people usually work with assumptions as to what SHOULD happen and how things ought to play out
    Aztlan Foss: like if I go up to this girl and say I there to be more than just friendship she migh think "well that ruins the friendship" but I can argue that that's not the only option.
    Aztlan Foss: so I can decide not to agree but eventually we will have to agree on something
    Aztlan Foss: which could very well be ruening the friendship
    Wester Kiranov: Yeah, but how do you get from one agreement to another? You'll have to take the relationship as it is into account
    Aztlan Foss: yeah, so I believe it's negotiable how it goes. So I hope she can agree to the same
    Wester Kiranov: And if you say there could be more than friendship here you have already changed the relation
    Aztlan Foss: if she thinks it can only go one way and I can't convince her otherwise then she'll win out the situation
    Wester Kiranov: That's a phyrric victory, getting to keep all your opinions
    Wester Kiranov: (hope i spelt that right)
    Aztlan Foss: with my ex girlfriend we were able to agree that things weren't working out
    Aztlan Foss: so we're still friends but we're each going out own way
    Aztlan Foss: we will keep in touch once in a while but we also agree not to be good buddies
    Wester Kiranov: that's good, if you can do it like that
    Aztlan Foss: just to keep relationships free of drama
    Aztlan Foss: yeah that's the thing, you can! if you can agree on it
    Wester Kiranov: but it takes two to agree
    Aztlan Foss: you could also stay friends even after you try to change a relationships UNLESS the other person doesn't see it as an option.
    Aztlan Foss: yes!
    Aztlan Foss: exactly
    Aztlan Foss: so all this thinking comes down to the typical trying to get out of the friend bucket with a girl I like
    Aztlan Foss: who is single since yesterday
    --BELL--
    Wester Kiranov: well I am totally out of practice with all this dating stuff I'm afraid
    Aztlan Foss: lol
    Wester Kiranov: but it will depend a lot on what the girl is like, what would be the best way to communicate it to her
    Aztlan Foss: not sure, she's only had one boyfriend but she was with him for 11 years
    Wester Kiranov: 11 years! then you should be careful
    Wester Kiranov: She will need some time to get over it - no matter how it ended, it's sad if a relationship of that lenght dies
    Wester Kiranov: you want to avoid sounding like you waited for it to end
    Aztlan Foss: we were friends for about as long and i've had my relationships through out it
    Aztlan Foss: that she's known about
    Aztlan Foss: so we can talk about what it's like to break up and ideas and what realtionships are
    Aztlan Foss: but I think that just digs me deeper in the friend bucket
    Wester Kiranov: I can see that
    Wester Kiranov: so is this the first time in your friendship that you're both single?
    Aztlan Foss: yes
    Aztlan Foss: both single at the same time
    --BELL--
    Aztlan Foss: on the other hand things are fine
    Aztlan Foss: the snow is melting here in the mountains in cali so I should go get my last bit of snowboarding in
    Wester Kiranov: sounds like fun
    Aztlan Foss: totally
    Aztlan Foss: what have you been thinking about lately?
    Wester Kiranov: Well I recently went to a talk in kira café and that inspired me to restart reading a book (Bateson's Mind and Nature)
    Aztlan Foss: what's it about?
    Wester Kiranov: It's good to do some real thinking once in a while
    Wester Kiranov: The talk described it as cybernetic and I had never really realized that
    Aztlan Foss: how could you miss that?
    Wester Kiranov: but it's about perception, and truth, and how systems are connected
    Wester Kiranov: it's not technical
    Aztlan Foss: like how reality is an abstraction?
    Wester Kiranov: Ross Ashby you can't miss being cybernetic, but this is more about people and biology and things like that.
    Wester Kiranov: I don't think he would argue reality being an abstraction
    Wester Kiranov: Oh, and feedback loops of course!
    Wester Kiranov: Also interesting in the context of relationships, now I think of it...
    Wester Kiranov: Hi Crusty
    Crusty Goldshark: hi guys
    Aztlan Foss: awesome cape crusty
    Crusty Goldshark: thank you - I believe it represents my innate affinity to flying . . .
    Wester Kiranov: The talk suggested that feedback loops might have some of the answers to the QM observation problem. An d now I want to see what kind of feedback loops he actually talks about (sorry Crusty, just finishing my sentence)
    Aztlan Foss: i like flying too but I've never been able to fly in dreams
    Crusty Goldshark: . . . or it could just be a piece of virtual cloth
    Wester Kiranov: ... tied to a virtual body
    Crusty Goldshark: flying in dreams eh . . . m m m
    Crusty Goldshark: well you dream a lot I take it and remember them?
    --BELL--
    Crusty Goldshark: that would seem the first step
    Aztlan Foss: the closest I can get to anything like flying in a dream is if I travel to places in roller coaster, or if I breathe under water and pretend I'm flying.
    Wester Kiranov: (shh)
    Aztlan Foss: sorry
    Wester Kiranov: If I fly in dreams, it always seems to be the easiest thing in the world
    Aztlan Foss: lucky!
    Aztlan Foss: I've been able to hover
    Aztlan Foss: or jump realy realy high but then I wake up because I don't want to fall too hard
    Aztlan Foss: and the hovering thing works kinda like if I pull my feet up I can carry them off the ground
    Crusty Goldshark: I have found that light on the eyes - daylight or nighlight helps to induce dreaming. How to fly, well I suppose a sign near your bed or a notebook with - prepare for take off' might work
    Crusty Goldshark: yes I find stepping one foot up and leaving it there allows the other to be raised :)
    Crusty Goldshark: Have to fly CU
    Wester Kiranov: bye crusty
    Wester Kiranov: I think I'll take off too ;-)
    Aztlan Foss: good night
    Wester Kiranov: I hope things work out well with your friend
    Wester Kiranov: bye
    Aztlan Foss: thanks!
    Aztlan Foss: bye
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