2010.04.14 07:00 - Personal Space

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, joined by SophiaSharon, Darren, Yakuzza, and Crusty. It was a 'strange but I thought interesting session. I've left room between lines so the reader might walk around comfortably. ;-)


    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Darren
    Darren Islar: hi Sharon
    Darren Islar: how are you today?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: good, my last day of work was yesterday :) how are you?
    Darren Islar: great to hear
    Darren Islar: I'm fine thank you
    Darren Islar: you have an open space now in front of you?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a bit, the 'emotional' space is opening :)
    Darren Islar: yes, that's good
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not yet, but i feel like being still, and thats good


    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Yakuzza, Hi Eliza
    Darren Islar: hi Yakum Hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon, Darren, Ya :)
    Eliza Madrigal: How is everyone?
    Darren Islar: I'm fine thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Crusty
    SophiaSharon Larnia: good :) you Eliza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey crusty
    Darren Islar: hi Crusty
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Crusty
    Darren Islar smiles at Yaku who's toes are hurt now
    Crusty Goldshark: hi guys
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, i wear security shoes :)
    Darren Islar: darn
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    Darren Islar: :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, so do we have a topic so far?
    Darren Islar: no, not yet
    Crusty Goldshark: sorry about the invasive entrance
    SophiaSharon Larnia: np Crusty :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (easy for me to say that haha)
    Crusty Goldshark: how about personal space
    Darren Islar: (well since Yaku wear security shoes :-))
    Eliza Madrigal noticing the strong breezes today, and wondering about 'winds of change'
    Eliza Madrigal: How so, Crusty?
    Eliza Madrigal: personal space is a great topic :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes it is
    Crusty Goldshark: . . . or winds of change - I thought you were putting your hand up like in class . .
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: Not at all, just throwing things out :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: the term personal space points to something seperate from something else
    SophiaSharon Larnia: this is mine and that is yours
    Eliza Madrigal nods... and sense of that can vary so widely from person to person
    SophiaSharon Larnia: just throwing out ideas here tho
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh yes

    Crusty Goldshark: consider myself part borg and therefore part of the net-collective
    Darren Islar: what does that mean to your personal space Crusty?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive worked with people who would stand all in my face, and I knew it was just cultural lol
    Eliza Madrigal: I need little space where my children are concerned for instance...
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes contextual too, sure
    Darren Islar: I need a lot of personal space
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me too
    Darren Islar: paradoxaly to let others in

    SophiaSharon Larnia: and time to be in it

    Darren Islar: yes
    Crusty Goldshark: Yakuzza put your hand down - if I may be so bold and invasive
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its not up on my screen
    Darren Islar: nor mine
    Eliza Madrigal: I've people in my life who think I need too much personal space
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it wasn´t on mine eiter, strange
    Eliza Madrigal: Ya seems fine to me, too
    Darren Islar: ha!

    Eliza Madrigal: It might be one of those ways that SL and the internet in general, flip things around
    Yakuzza Lethecus: is it better for oyu now ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
    Crusty Goldshark: Yes - better - I felt invaded by someone who wanted to ask a question - gohead ask ask - I was thinking . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: Right now we have a lot of space from one another in rl, but little distance in terms of sharing potentially
    Eliza Madrigal: and sometimes we're at a packed dinner, a million miles away really
    Eliza Madrigal: from those we're with

    Crusty Goldshark: Well I feel that their is a great deal of space and comfort in the SL-collective
    Darren Islar: we do ask questions sometimes Crusty, but you don't need to answer them
    Crusty Goldshark: Thanks Darren - understood :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the space here for me is comfortable when its anonymous, as Ive become less anonymous, ive been more uncomfortable
    Crusty Goldshark: If I was in a meditation with real people, I would probably have to be in another room to feel my pschic link was not being influenced by stray thoughts


    Eliza Madrigal: interesting... freedom in anonymity
    Crusty Goldshark: Yes - it seems personal but is not
    Crusty Goldshark: However the connection is real and as is said as we reveal more of our persona it becomes more real

    SophiaSharon Larnia: thinking on personal space during the 90 secs. and not really feeling any line where it begins exactly.... interesting.....

    Darren Islar pondering about anonimity and real
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm.. and then I wonder about compartmetalizing, too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Darren Islar: anonymity makes it more possible to be personal and that makes it more real
    Darren Islar: I can remember a conversation I had with someone that said that the contact in sl was more heart to heart
    Darren Islar: that made me think
    Crusty Goldshark: Perhaps - I feel people have different approaches and responses - as in RL
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it is that! if you want to be so
    Eliza Madrigal: I think the potential to bypass appearances is great, here, but agree with Crusty
    Darren Islar: then I realized that we don't have the humbug of somebody not picking up his clothes, picking his nose, even no body language
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ha
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Darren Islar: maybe that gives us the possibility to become more real on another level?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a less personal level?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: person-al
    Eliza Madrigal: its another dimension... a dimension where we meet inside out, if we choose...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or more?
    Darren Islar: yes or more personal

    Crusty Goldshark: heart to heart - I feel that is possible - but then some people wish to engage in superficiality in rl or in sl - for example is there joy in virtual shopping and virtual sex? How satisfying are those?
    Darren Islar: here we show ourselves in the way we would like to be
    Eliza Madrigal: the RL avatar is in the hidden layer... and the RL hidden is sometimes on the outside
    Darren Islar: a perfect picture
    Darren Islar: not always real
    Darren Islar: but in real life we can be very judgmental
    Crusty Goldshark: I don't want to be bald
    Darren Islar: that is pretty hard to do in sl, if it comes to looks :-)
    Crusty Goldshark: however I do want a cape
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Darren Islar: :_)
    Eliza Madrigal thinks we can be just as judgemental in SL if we're prone to that...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: so there is intention

    SophiaSharon Larnia: for me personal space is linked with spiritual space, theres no real seperation there
    Darren Islar: we are not less judgmental then we are in rl
    SophiaSharon Larnia: because that is who i am
    Darren Islar: but it is harder to judge someone by just looking at him/her
    Eliza Madrigal: its actually tricky to discuss, which seems counterintuitive to me
    Eliza Madrigal: space, that is
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and this spiritual space is easily disrupted by thoughts of the mind, easily tossed to and fro by the wind
    Darren Islar: true Sharon

    Eliza Madrigal: Last night's session was another interesting one...
    Eliza Madrigal: the theme with Eos, discussing "Be Decisive"
    Eliza Madrigal: the strong, settled mountain imagery....
    Eliza Madrigal: the winds coming and going, the storms arising and ceasing...

    SophiaSharon Larnia: the thing with mountains, are they were once the bottom of the ocean, that part of the imagery intrudes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I wonder about where that settledness comes from... and wonder about the satisfaction of space...
    Eliza Madrigal: lots of space in water....

    Darren Islar: you said some intreging things Eiza, but I'm afraid you lost me
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles, Eliza is always intriquing
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Darren Islar: more so today :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: or incomprehensible
    SophiaSharon Larnia: noo lol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe me babbling and disrupting flow
    Darren Islar: nice an incomprehensible woman
    Eliza Madrigal: =P~ babbling brooks are nature... not that you do


    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
    Darren Islar: I haven't heard any babbling
    Darren Islar: except from the fountain :-)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: 90 secs of the brook..... a babbling brook knows no delinated space, it flows to fill a void, an empty space.....
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm..
    Eliza Madrigal: what's interesting is it is our 'idea's about things taking space, that take space...
    Darren Islar: another intreging remark :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: space itself is inclusive... there is just as much when something is in it...
    Eliza Madrigal: and people, too... which has been difficult in practice for me at least

    SophiaSharon Larnia: (technically, babbling brook water moves air molecoles or whatever so not a true statement, or the void is not void

    Eliza Madrigal: that no matter how busy or intrusive someone might be, space is always there....
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, though maybe not air


    Crusty Goldshark: I think a lot on 'Emptiess is form and form is emptiness' - the mahayana dictum
    Eliza Madrigal: Say more, Crusty? I'm quite inspired by that too... Heart Sutra...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the thing about letting down the fear to say what i think here, is some weird things come out hahahah

    Crusty Goldshark: Well . . . in terms of personal space - what we experience is our form but the space (the sense of individual space or being) is illusionary . . .
    Crusty Goldshark: So we have no self (though we appear to have a form) We are both empty and form

    Eliza Madrigal: nothing excluded Sharon... hehe... sharing it all.. confusion and doubt and brilliance and fatigue and bliss... :)))

    Crusty Goldshark: Just as in SL we are both an experience of nothing that exists - being just the interplay of keyboard and minds . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, forms as overlapping patterns in that sense crusty... clusters?
    Crusty Goldshark: Yes you could say clusters - or nodes of the borg collective or however the metaphor apears to you . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: :))

    Darren Islar: I think this discussion is just to abstract to me
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im trying to lock it down myself, Darren, not succeeding but thinking about this space
    Eliza Madrigal: fluidity of space...
    Crusty Goldshark: In terms of personal space I feel we integrate more with our environment and empathise more with others as part of our being - sothe idea of personal space becomes much bigger
    Darren Islar: (I guess Liza should be here, she would love this)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Crusty Goldshark: I feel this developing fluidity of mine and other grows as we perhaps understand more of our limitations and also our possibilities . . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and understands
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, crusty... like that is the base level.... connectedness
    Eliza Madrigal simles at Darren and Sharon

    Crusty Goldshark: Yes we tend to connect in ways that keeps us seperate - in other words even very personal encounters are nothing of the sort - they lack intimacy or real sharing . . .

    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not 'keeping up' either.. but sometimes one takes a long winding road before finding the vista?
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Crusty.. Is that just a matter of intention you think? Or not seeing that we're all in the same boat, in a sense?


    Crusty Goldshark: Well Eliza, we are , when we meet on the same part of the journey - where you go - I in part travel too - to a new vista (or Linux in my case :)
    Eliza Madrigal: through one spot we can see all others... yes, very inspiring actually....
    Eliza Madrigal: Indra's Net
    Eliza Madrigal apologizes to the bell
    Crusty Goldshark: We are in the same boat. think of it as a large coracle, circling and paddling in different directions or going with the flow . . .
    Crusty Goldshark: Sorry been a while since I have been in SL - will get my sound working and then might hear the bell .. . . and fountain

    SophiaSharon Larnia: or saying, heck with it and throwing your self in the babbling brook to be swept away
    Eliza Madrigal: !
    Darren Islar: that is weird to me, the lack of intimacy or real sharing
    Crusty Goldshark: how so Darren?
    Eliza Madrigal: Crusty, I apologized since I've been doing that a lot lately.... exposing it so I stop. Hah
    Eliza Madrigal: I lowered the fountain, but normally one can "see" the bell

    Darren Islar: well we are born alone and die alone
    Darren Islar: so we do lack some connection
    Eliza Madrigal: who are 'we'
    Darren Islar: we do so by only getting born
    Darren Islar: but that doesn't mean to me tha we can't reach each other
    Darren Islar: or be intimite
    Darren Islar: as you said Eliza, you can be very lonely at a large dinnertable where people aren;t able to connect
    Crusty Goldshark: When we are born - we do not really exist yet - and during the process of death we also begin the process of ceasing - in between we fell there is something called I - never found that I to exist . . .
    Darren Islar: of course we do exist
    Darren Islar: the shap is not completed yet, true
    Eliza Madrigal: thinks that may depend on who we think we are
    Eliza Madrigal: or what we think we are
    Eliza Madrigal: now *realy* incomprehensible, eh? hahahha

    Darren Islar: well I don't belief in a self
    Darren Islar: but I have no idea what that means
    Darren Islar: for as far as I am aware now
    Crusty Goldshark: I do not doubt that the experience of existence is real for a baby in some way but the sense of 'I' take time to form
    Darren Islar: Im sitting here, virually or in flesh and blood
    Darren Islar: true Crusty
    Darren Islar: I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say actually :-)


    Eliza Madrigal: this is a funny session... a bit like bumper cars
    Crusty Goldshark: During the process of finding the 'self' - it clings to the body, the mind, the emotions, the future etc but none of thes are 'I'
    Darren Islar: feels that way :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: with no drivers
    SophiaSharon Larnia: loves bumper cars
    Darren Islar: I don;t feel like drinving no :-)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: Crusty, thank you... interesting way of describing that

    Darren Islar: I have no idea where I am :D
    Eliza Madrigal: I am has no where either

    Crusty Goldshark: The 'I'' moves - dependent on the persoan space it experiences or is involved in . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: (now I'm really just throwing out stuff-hah)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the iam has no where ,,,, yay


    Darren Islar: maybe I would like to explore things feeling this body of flesh and blood and take that as the beginning of my exploratiion
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes that is where i sit too
    Darren Islar: I mean I am familiar with the Heart Sutra, but I can't really 'work' with it
    Darren Islar: do I make any sense? I hope :-S
    Crusty Goldshark: Body identification, I am my left toe - when I fcus there or I am my (whatever sensation) but again these are 'dependent arisings'
    Darren Islar: of course they are, but that is what I feel
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you do make sense :))
    Crusty Goldshark: :)
    Darren Islar: thanks :-)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: thx, everyone
    Darren Islar: bye Yaku
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Yakuzza
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye ya
    Crusty Goldshark: I have to move my empty form and cook some food to fill the evoid


    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Crusty
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, Bye Crusty :)
    Darren Islar: that's what I mean Crusty :-)
    Crusty Goldshark: bye guys live long and prosper
    Darren Islar: bye
    Eliza Madrigal: peace out
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) bye
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive ignored some house duties, like shopping, and paying bills so have to go now too :)) bye for now

    Darren Islar: I think I just felt disconnected with the discussion, though it is very intreging
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes best wishes in catching up Sharon :))
    Darren Islar: bye Sharon
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now

    Darren Islar: emptiness is form, form is empitness is too wide off to 'feel'
    Eliza Madrigal: MMM, i feel it deeply....
    Eliza Madrigal: from a different body... heart body, in a sense
    Darren Islar: I do too, but can't 'work' with it
    Darren Islar: I think that is what I mean with another level
    Darren Islar: more close by
    Darren Islar: more daily things
    Eliza Madrigal nods...
    Eliza Madrigal: everything can be a door....
    Darren Islar: feeling the groud under my bare feet
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes
    Darren Islar: or the water when we were standing in it
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I'll leave that bit in the log...
    Eliza Madrigal: better go though, have appts today
    Darren Islar: and don't get me wrong, the heart sutra and pondering about it, is very important
    Darren Islar: okay
    Eliza Madrigal: I do hear you.... wisdom in everything... in the most basic... maybe especially
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye for now
    Darren Islar is packing his confusion in his pocket
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Darren Islar: :_0
    Darren Islar: Bye Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal waves

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