2010.04.16 13:00 - Theme session: Liza's meditation project

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. Liza Deischer has put in some comments


    Liza Deischer: hey Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey liza, long time no see :)
    Liza Deischer: no, so I'm glad to be here :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen
    Liza Deischer: hey Zen
    Liza Deischer: brb
    Zen Arado: Hi Yaku, Liza


    Qt Core: Hi all!
    Zen Arado: Hi Qt :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi qt
    Zen Arado: Hi Pema :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Sharon :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ssl,pema
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone
    Liza Deischer: hi QT
    Qt Core: Hi Pema, SSL
    Liza Deischer: hi Pema
    Zen Arado: we dropped out and dropped in :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Liza, Zen, Yaku, Qt, Sharon!
    Pema Pera: and hi Agatha!
    Liza Deischer: Hi Sharon, Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello everybody :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Agatha :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi aga

    people are still arriving, meanwhile others are worried about the volcano ashes and whether Wol and Gaya will be able to make it to SF

    Yakuzza Lethecus: anyone knows when wol is or will fly to sf ?
    Qt Core: hi agatha
    Liza Deischer: no, I don't
    Pema Pera: no, I haven't heard from Wol at all yet
    Liza Deischer: I hope she will be able too
    Zen Arado: don't think there is any flying allowed yet?
    Qt Core: Hi Eliza
    Liza Deischer: hi Eliza
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza:)
    Agatha Macbeth: Liz :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone! :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, they closed nearly all german airports today
    Pema Pera: Gaya will fly on Tuesday now, it turns out
    Liza Deischer: not till at least tomorrow morning
    Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everuone who arrived, and brb
    Liza Deischer: and then there are still a lot of passengers waiting
    Eliza Madrigal: apologies ... a bit late picking up my children :)
    Liza Deischer: you're on time Eliza, no worries
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Qt Core: and tomorrow even italian airport are starting to close
    Agatha Macbeth: Eek
    Qt Core: the northern ones
    Zen Arado: N.Ireland airports are open again I hear
    Eliza Madrigal: Seems a good sign, Zen :)
    Zen Arado: we are at the edge of the ash cloud though
    Agatha Macbeth: Ashes to ashes....
    Zen Arado: dust to dust...
    Eliza Madrigal: Would everyone like to begin today's theme session? I know Liza has prepared quite well... I have notecards to give each of you also :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Fun to funky?
    Zen Arado: sure
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Excellent. ::hands the mic to Liza::::

    Theme-session: Liza unfolds her plans

    Liza Deischer: okay thanks Eliza
    Liza Deischer: not so long ago Wol, Eliza and I did an experiment, doing a meditation lead by me
    Liza Deischer: and I asked Cal, who can't be here tonight, to look over my shoulder, during the set up and evaluations
    Liza Deischer: to me it was new to do a meditation in sl and I asked Wol and Eliza to be present to see if my approach of meditation could mean something for PaB
    Liza Deischer: so this theme-session of tonight is about to see if there might be an interest from PaB members in a serie meditation session, outside the regular PaB meetings
    Liza Deischer: Eliza and Wol will share there experiences with you in a moment, but let me first tell you something about the how and why

    Zen Arado: Hi Wol
    Agatha Macbeth waves to Wol
    Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
    Liza Deischer: adn Wol is just comingin, hi Wol :-)
    Pema Pera: hi Wol !
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol, Glad you made it :)

    Dropping, how does it work?

    Liza Deischer: We talk a lot in PaB about dropping and about letting go of (the attachment of) feelings, thoughts or the emotions we have
    Liza Deischer: my name wouldn't be Liza :) if I wouldn't have asked myself: how does that work, how do we do that? I mean, how does that really work?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Liza Deischer: what happens when we really drop something?
    Liza Deischer: and what is a feeling or thought without the attachment?
    Pema Pera: :)
    Liza Deischer: I guess dropping (the attachment) is actually doing a few things to us
    Liza Deischer: first we stop with what we are doing and get some kind of feeling of the here and now
    Liza Deischer: secondly by doing so, we create openness, because by dropping something we make space
    Liza Deischer: and if we are also willing to look at what is happening at that moment within ourselves, we even can open up to other layers of who we think we are
    Liza Deischer: by doing so we create freedom in the choices we make
    Liza Deischer: just a few thoughts of mine
    Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful Liza, that's very clear

    Learning from experiences; meditation as a tool to be able to look closer to our experiences

    Liza Deischer: but what does openness really mean, what does it mean to you, what can you do with it, how can it make you more free and how can we find this openness?
    Liza Deischer: there is a lot to say about those questions and we prove that by talking about it in the sessions a lot
    Liza Deischer: but I realized that a lot of answers to that is in the experiences we have not in how we think about them


    Liza Deischer: if we can look close (or closer) to our experiences, we can learn more about the patterns we use and why we are using them
    Pema Pera: that's a nice and very thoughtful way of posing central questions, Liza!
    Liza Deischer: thanks Pema
    Liza Deischer: our experiences are even giving us clues about how we can create more openness and giving us more choices
    Liza Deischer: the 9 sec. is giving us a great tool to get closer to those experiences
    Liza Deischer: but we can even get closer if we take the time for ourselves to sit down and have a good look
    Liza Deischer: meditation is a tool with which we are able to do that
    Liza Deischer: with meditation we are able to look more closely to our own experiences
    Liza Deischer: we do that by creating a situation in which we are less distracted and by using techniques to let all the things that can distract, go
    Liza Deischer: if we do that we can make our selves more open to anything that wants to appear to us
    Liza Deischer: and then we can get surprised by certain feelings, or suddenly understand why we do the things we do in that particular way
    Liza Deischer: and that understanding is not coming from our 'head' but comes from deeper inside of us
    Liza Deischer: don't ask me from where :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Liza Deischer: I have learned and still use a meditation technique in which I work with a so called meditation-object.
    Liza Deischer: that meditation-object is something that is always there with us, we can't misplace or loose it
    Liza Deischer: and that is our own breathing
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    How and what

    Liza Deischer: so I came up with this idea to organize a few sessions, 4 to start with, especially for members of PaB to be able to learn if this meditation is something that you can benefit from
    Liza Deischer: I know there are a lot of you who are meditating, but I also know, out of my own experience, how hard it can be to do that on your own
    Liza Deischer: to give you a better picture of what I have in mind.....
    Liza Deischer: besides the 'real' meditation of dropping and the concentrating on our breathing, I will also do some bodywork
    Liza Deischer: small and slow physical, exercises which will make it easier to ground yourself

    Wol Euler: hello EanAtan, I'll give you an intro to the group in IM
    EanAtan Icthan: (hy - this is bertram - half incognito) ... ;-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi :)
    Wol Euler grins
    Liza Deischer: hi :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Wol, and Ean :) Then I'll give you a note about our theme session today ;-D
    Pema Pera: Hi BertAtan!
    Agatha Macbeth: (Oh dear)
    EanAtan Icthan: lol - didn't want to interrupt ! :-)

    Liza Deischer: but will also give you the opportunity to learn more about your body and the connections with your emotions and thoughts
    Liza Deischer: last, but not least I will also use visualizations to ease the way to a more concentrated state
    EanAtan Icthan: lol - didn't want to interrupt ! :-)
    Liza Deischer: these visualizations can also bring you into contact to certain aspects of yourself and make them more clear to you
    Liza Deischer: so even to those who has his own practice, this could be interesting, since every practice uses his own techniques
    Liza Deischer: okay, this is about what I had to say
    Eliza Madrigal: :) ::: claps::: thank you for such a clear presentation, Liza
    Liza Deischer: to get some information on how it could work, I would like to ask Wol and Eliza to share their experiences
    Liza Deischer: thanks Eliza
    Zen Arado: thanks Liza
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you Liza :)
    Liza Deischer: yw

    A small intermezzo, talking about the vulcano

    Liza Deischer: but first Wol I think everyone here first would like to know if you will be able to get to SF
    Wol Euler laughs
    Eliza Madrigal smiles, yes
    Wol Euler: I would like to know that too.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: but God isn't answering my calls.
    Wol Euler shrugs.
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe god is meditating
    Liza Deischer: Jeez
    Eliza Madrigal: (sorry)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Liza Deischer: you're not in much luck with your flights
    Wol Euler: Appreciate the Presence of High-Atmospheric-Dust as a Presentation by Being :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I had a dream i was in another country driving, i think i was looking for an airport that was open
    Wol Euler: heh
    Liza Deischer: well, I'm afraid whole Europe is shutting down
    Wol Euler nods
    Agatha Macbeth: It might as well

    Pema Pera: hi Sophia!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Sophia
    Zen Arado: Hi Sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia :))
    Wol Euler: hello sophia, long time no see
    Liza Deischer: hi Sophia
    EanAtan Icthan: hey sophia ! :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Salaam Sophia :)

    EanAtan Icthan: and i sit in ireland and don't come home *gr* ...
    Wol Euler: oh wow
    Liza Deischer: ah yes, that's true
    Pema Pera: You're in Ireland, Bert? And now your vacation is extended?


    EanAtan Icthan: yes. wanted to go back tomorrow _ canceled
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: Munich was the last German airport open, it closed at sunset today
    Pema Pera: volcanic sunset :-)
    Wol Euler: yes, at and because of :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hardly krakatoa mind you...
    EanAtan Icthan: and have to pay one more flight after another may be lol until i get all back then, hopefully *gr* ;-)
    Wol Euler: fortunately!

    Back to the theme-session

    SophiaSharon Larnia: back to the topic Liza, what sort of visualizations? (seeing a lovely red sunset and becoming somewhat alarmed!)
    Liza Deischer: good question Sharon
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, that might be a great thing for you to say more about Liza, then Wol and I can share
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (oops forgot sorry )
    Liza Deischer: but first mayb Wol and Eliza can tell something about that
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, okay :)
    Liza Deischer: then I will get further into that
    Wol Euler looks at Eliza. Want to go first?
    Liza Deischer: Eliza would you like to start

    Eliza and Wol telling about there experiences with a meditation leaded by Liza

    Eliza Madrigal: Well what I can share is that first, Liza's voice is perfectly suited for this...
    Eliza Madrigal: and that she is quite patient... measured, so that one might really relax and 'go along' in a sense...
    Eliza Madrigal: and that I find her technique very much 'non-intrusive'
    Eliza Madrigal: using gentle imagery... really quite surprising. Also, she takes her time, breaking the meditation into distinct parts and allowing one to hm...
    Eliza Madrigal: get used to deeper relaxation perhaps.
    Eliza Madrigal: Those are my first thoughts... Wol?
    Wol Euler: well, I really enjoyed the practice session. It was surprising in several ways
    Wol Euler: I had my eyes closed much of the time, and with Liza's voice in my ears I entirely forgot that we were physically separated
    Wol Euler: I "felt" very much together with E and L.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Wol Euler: there was quite a bit of "body work", guided movement
    Wol Euler: and that too became a kind of mantra as we did it
    Wol Euler: I was amazed at how my sense of time simply fell away
    Wol Euler: I thought we'd been working for about 25 minutes, but really it was over 90.
    Wol Euler grins
    Liza Deischer: yes, I remember :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: True!
    Wol Euler: It was great, I really enjoyed and benefited from it
    Eliza Madrigal: yes me too.... Glad that you mentioned the body work aspect also Wol, because I felt that was important
    Eliza Madrigal: too
    Wol Euler: and would recommend it

    Body work

    Liza Deischer: yes, the bodywork is an important aspect
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bodywork,the term is not new to me, in which way?
    Liza Deischer: it prevents you from a mind that is flowing away :-)
    Wol Euler: "yoga" might be a related term :)
    Liza Deischer see a brain flowing away :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Wol Euler: in that instance, small repetitive movements, circling, cycles of motion
    Wol Euler: but tiny controlled movements, not like aerobics class
    Liza Deischer: NO
    Wol Euler: "bodyfulness" instead of mindfulness :)
    Liza Deischer: ah, nice word, bodyfulness
    Pema Pera: :)
    Wol Euler: awareness of the body, of the feeling of motion
    Liza Deischer: but that is the idea yes
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, very subtle, basic... perhaps why effective..
    Liza Deischer: those are very simple practices
    Liza Deischer: anybody can do
    Liza Deischer: you don't need to get your body in a terrible position
    Wol Euler grins and nods
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Liza Deischer: and the slow moving is important
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
    Liza Deischer: the slow and repetitive movement
    Liza Deischer: making it a meditation in its own
    Liza Deischer: and making it easier to focus on your body
    Eliza Madrigal: and easily incorporated here also, I found myself thinking... that I often correct posture, but hm.... why not stretch a little... let the body partake of the pause, in a way
    Eliza Madrigal: nods
    Wol Euler nods.
    Liza Deischer: and getting grounded a bit more
    Liza Deischer: yes and when yet get more used to it
    Liza Deischer: you can also start to focus on certain aspects
    Liza Deischer: for instance
    Liza Deischer: there is always a moment of resistance
    Liza Deischer: where the body starts to protest
    Liza Deischer: it give you a nice and gentle way to see closer how that feels and how you react


    EanAtan Icthan: ((sry - leave again - ty all , look forward to see ya all again - have a graet time plz ! ... *wave*))
    Wol Euler: bye ean
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye EanAtan :)
    Pema Pera: bye Ean!
    Liza Deischer: bye ean
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bert
    Zen Arado: bye Ean


    Liza Deischer: you also asked about the guided meditation Sharon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Liza Deischer: I don't know if Eliza and Wol can say more about that?

    Zen Arado: Hi Bleu :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Bleu :) One moment and I'll give you a note :)
    Pema Pera: hi there Bleu!
    Liza Deischer: hi Bleu
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: thx
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
    sophia Placebo: hi bleu

    Eliza Madrigal: The visualization Liza used for us, was one of the sun.... of warmth... natural
    Bleu Oleander: (internet was down for over an hour!)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, no fun that Bleu :) glad you made it
    Liza Deischer: yes it is not really a guided meditation, but a visualization
    Liza Deischer: then can bring up a certain aspect
    Liza Deischer: with Wol and Eliza I used the sun
    Liza Deischer: but it can also be a grounding exercise, like feeling you really root into the ground
    Liza Deischer: both are different aspects, because the sun is more placed in the upper part of the body
    Liza Deischer: and gives other 'information' then when you focus on a grounding exercise
    Liza Deischer: the idea is that I will use different kinds
    Liza Deischer: and then you can see for yourself what works best for you
    Eliza Madrigal: Right. the 'parts' are common to guided visualizations .... but Liza's technique was one that gave one a real sense of learning to 'let go step by step '... as Wol mentioned, the time aspect especially
    Liza Deischer: a guided meditation guides you to something
    Liza Deischer: a visualization is more a concentration on a certain aspect

    Qt Core: need to go, bye all
    sophia Placebo: bye Qt
    Pema Pera: bye Qt
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Qt, thanks
    Wol Euler: buona notte, qt
    Liza Deischer: bye QT
    Agatha Macbeth: Ciao QT :)
    Zen Arado: bye Qt

    information about the where and how

    Liza Deischer: okay 5 minutes left on the clock
    Liza Deischer: so let me wrap it up a little
    Liza Deischer: I would like to start with four meditations
    Liza Deischer: just to see if there is interest and if this might work for us
    Liza Deischer: after that anything can happen
    Liza Deischer: the sessions will take place at my place
    Liza Deischer: that is called the Shift
    Liza Deischer: I made it for this kind of purposes
    Pema Pera: nice name!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Liza Deischer: it is small (6 seats beside myself) and I think it is important to work with small groups
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Liza Deischer: for maximum result
    Liza Deischer: our session took over 90 minutes being with the two of us
    Liza Deischer: with more people it will also take more time
    Liza Deischer: but I will cut it down to 60 minutes, 90 tops
    Wol Euler grins
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Liza Deischer: that means that I am going to vary with the elements that we can use
    Liza Deischer: like sometimes we do a 'bodymindfulness' and another time we will get more into the visiualization
    Liza Deischer: I don't want to keep you there for hours :-)


    Bleu Oleander: (look forward to reading the log since I missed the session .... c u all!)
    Wol Euler: bye bleu, take care
    Liza Deischer: bye Bleu
    sophia Placebo: bye beu
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Bleu, and Pema
    Agatha Macbeth: Night Bleu
    Pema Pera: thank you very much, Liza, and Wol and Eliza too!
    Zen Arado: bye Bleu, Pema
    Pema Pera: bfn
    sophia Placebo: bye pema
    Wol Euler: bye pema, hope to see you soon
    Pema Pera: me 2 !
    Agatha Macbeth: C ya Pema
    Liza Deischer: bye Pema

    Using Voice

    Zen Arado: what about posture? IN Zen we think it important to keep the back straight
    Liza Deischer: well Wol reminded me of telling you something, then I get to your question Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Also Liza, as a practical matter, how would you like people to contact you if they'd like to partake?
    Zen Arado: worry that in RL people are lying on a sofa or something
    Liza Deischer: I will use Voice
    Liza Deischer: because I need my voice and the timing of it to guide you into meditation
    Liza Deischer: and if I ask to close your eyes, it will be pretty hard to read the chattlines :-)
    Wol Euler: (you won't need to speak, but you will need to listen)
    Liza Deischer: yes, because for in between the different elements
    Liza Deischer: we can also use the chat
    Liza Deischer: at those moments I will ask you about your experiences

    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all have to go (sorry distracted)
    Zen Arado: bye SSL
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Sharon :)
    sophia Placebo: g2g as well , bye all
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sophia (and SophiaSharon)
    Zen Arado: bye Sopia
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for coming :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Soph
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll need to go also, but I want to thank you again for such a clear presentation, Liza. And thanks Yakuzza, for letting us use your session!
    Zen Arado: bye Eliza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it's fine not to have the friday sillyness :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: onigokko
    Liza Deischer: bye eliza and thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: oh that may be coming
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh! Also Liza, Bye and thanks again *hugs*
    Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care
    Eliza Madrigal: (that was two sentences but they came together well-hah)
    Agatha Macbeth: Night Liz :))


    Liza Deischer: Your question Zen
    Liza Deischer: posture is more important in Zen then in my kind of meditation
    Liza Deischer: but it is important anyway
    Liza Deischer: what I do is to give the basics
    Liza Deischer: with the physical 'exercises' i will get more into that
    Liza Deischer: but in a more natural way
    Liza Deischer: looking for your own balance
    Liza Deischer: feeling it instead of somebody telling you how to do it
    Liza Deischer: I found out that works best
    Zen Arado: ok thanks
    Liza Deischer: but I do give a bases

    What to do, when you're interested

    Liza Deischer: well, or the log and for the ones still here
    Liza Deischer: If you are interested, let me know
    Liza Deischer: then i can see with how many people we are
    Liza Deischer: because maybe we need to different groups
    Zen Arado: depends on the time too though
    Liza Deischer: it depends
    Liza Deischer: yes I understand, but that is hard for me to say right now
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i would definetivly come
    Liza Deischer: I don't know the day yet, but for the time
    Liza Deischer: I have 11.30 am slt in my head
    Liza Deischer: because I think that is about the best time when everyone can be available
    Zen Arado: that is ok for me except for 2 nights per week
    Liza Deischer: well, that is what I need to figure out is which night (or afternoon) will be best
    Yakuzza Lethecus: not wednesdays :)
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Liza Deischer: no not wednesday being the only night I'm not always available myself
    Zen Arado: maybe need choice of sittings
    Liza Deischer: yes Zen, depends on how many people are interested
    Zen Arado: to suit people in different time zones
    Liza Deischer: that too, if that is possible
    Liza Deischer: oh and to make sure:
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think it wouldn't even be a problem with an overlap on pab in tim
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the dream workshop also overlaps
    Liza Deischer: the meditation is not religion-related-thing
    Wol Euler: well, it's not ideal.
    Liza Deischer: I agree with Wol
    Liza Deischer: I need to ask people when they are available and need to figure out what I can do best
    Wol Euler: perhaps just choose two days and times (both different) for the first two series, and announce them. People will choose which suits them best
    Liza Deischer: but I will try not to interfere with the regular PaB-meetings


    Liza Deischer: maybe I will Wol, but first I would like to see some names
    Zen Arado: I can't go Tues and Thurs
    Liza Deischer: europeans or not
    Liza Deischer: it is easier to decide that way
    Zen Arado: otherwise would be interested
    Liza Deischer: is noted Zen
    Liza Deischer: Darren has a notecard that he can give you
    Liza Deischer: I was so stupid to give it to him :-)
    Liza Deischer: to make allternations
    Zen Arado: would like to sit with pab 'ers
    Wol Euler: :)
    Liza Deischer: only Pab'ers are involved
    Liza Deischer: and as a dreamer he is, he didn't gave it back to me :-)
    Liza Deischer: yes Yaku , thanks :-)
    Liza Deischer: just let me know in the coming week
    Agatha Macbeth: TY
    Liza Deischer: Zen I put you on the list
    Zen Arado: thanks Liza
    Liza Deischer: well, I've got nothing to say anymore
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Zen Arado: let me know when meditation is to take place
    Wol Euler: Well done, Liza, thank you.
    Liza Deischer: thanks Wol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, thx liza
    Agatha Macbeth: Thank you
    Zen Arado: thanks Liza and Wol

    The volcano and our expectations of life

    Liza Deischer: I hope you make it to SF wol
    Wol Euler: me too. thank you
    Wol Euler: but, y'know, it is what it is.
    Liza Deischer: yes, I know
    Wol Euler: I'm trying not to be attached to the idea of going to SF
    Zen Arado: funny how we always expect things to go right for us
    Zen Arado: and how often they don't
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye everybody
    Liza Deischer: bye Agatha
    Zen Arado: who would have dreamed of a volcanic cloud?
    Wol Euler: bye aggers
    Zen Arado: bye Aga
    Liza Deischer: well, what is right
    Liza Deischer: the problem is we don't know
    Zen Arado: the way we think they should go :)
    Liza Deischer: if there is a right anyway
    Zen Arado: just constructions we put on reality
    Wol Euler: brb
    Zen Arado: but so important to us sometimes
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Zen Arado: am learning not to put 'value' on things
    Zen Arado: just let them be what they are
    Liza Deischer: yes, but sometimes that is pretty hard
    Zen Arado: yes it is
    Liza Deischer: but it is a good exercise anyway
    Zen Arado: our minds do it so automatically

    dropping and ignorance; 'mazzel'karma

    Yakuzza Lethecus: a thought just flashed through my mind: "can dropping make us ignorant ?"
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Liza Deischer: no
    Zen Arado: you don't have to drop your brain
    Zen Arado: just be aware of what it is doing


    Zen Arado: keep it in its place - 'the mind is a good servant but a bad master' someone said
    Wol Euler: heh, yes
    Zen Arado: does that make any sense?
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: When i am sometimes in a good state of mind when i call myself nonjudgemental and not grasping then i am not skeptic but my skeptisism even lead me where i am right now
    Liza Deischer: my teacher once said that there are people that have 'lucky' karma
    Liza Deischer: they have a lot of good karma without being aware
    Liza Deischer: in the end awareness and karma go together
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i i would never have grasped and made myself suffering i wouldn't have been motivated to seek further, maybe
    Zen Arado: until something bad happens....
    Liza Deischer: that excludes ignorance
    Liza Deischer: exactly
    Liza Deischer: In Dutch we call it mazzel karma
    Zen Arado: skepticiam is ok up to a point I think
    Liza Deischer: mazzel being originally a hebrew word
    Zen Arado: so long as it doesn't close you off too much
    Liza Deischer: which really hits the nail on his head
    Zen Arado: where you won't accept anything
    Zen Arado: mazzel?
    Liza Deischer: right Yaku
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: eh......
    Liza Deischer: just being lucky
    Zen Arado: ok
    Liza Deischer: but there is a ring to that word
    Liza Deischer: I thought maybe, being a Hebrew word, somebody would know it
    Zen Arado: not me :)
    Liza Deischer: because it is closer then just being lucky
    Yakuzza Lethecus: mazel tov ?
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: it is being lucky in an ignorant way

    Zen Arado: ok I better go
    Zen Arado: do my RL meditation:)
    Liza Deischer: okay Zen, see you
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Zen Arado: bye all

    Some thoughts about beauty and grasping beauty

    Liza Deischer: for Wol's feeling of symmetrie, I'd better change places
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Liza Deischer: not that she is noticing it
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: back
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wb
    Wol Euler: and grateful
    Liza Deischer: wb
    Liza Deischer: (this silence is nice)
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Yakuzza Lethecus imagines the fountain as a little volcano
    Wol Euler: :)
    Liza Deischer: but this one is nice and cool
    Liza Deischer: I'm pretty sure Darren would like to feel that on his face :-)


    Liza Deischer: the other one is more cruel, but also very powerful and beautiful
    Wol Euler nods.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: is all beauty a matter of perspective ?
    Liza Deischer: interesting question
    Liza Deischer: initially I should say yes
    Liza Deischer: but there seem to be also a collective mind on what beauty is
    Wol Euler: I'm not sure what the question means.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: dropping means for me not only to get rid of grasping but also of learning to appreciate the moment more
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i implicitly not want to become stoic
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i try to replace the grasping with a calm and warm feeling
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i just decide to see the beauty ?
    Wol Euler: ah, I see.
    Wol Euler: perhaps the answer is "yes", then, but in a different way than I first took it.
    Wol Euler: not "things seem beautiful because I look at them in a certain way"
    Wol Euler: but rather "everything is beautiful if you stop looking at it in the wrong way" :)
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Liza Deischer: I guess it is still grasping
    Liza Deischer: but grasping used in a beneficial way
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i think i can't escape grasping and feel that i don't even want to
    Liza Deischer: I think it is a very good start
    Liza Deischer: because it is so hard not to grasp
    Liza Deischer: still don't know what it really means
    Liza Deischer: so you make it more simple
    Liza Deischer: and start with looking at things in a different way
    Yakuzza Lethecus: only the grasping is shifting
    Liza Deischer: yes but it immediately gives you another perspective
    Liza Deischer: so at least you know there is more then one truth
    Yakuzza Lethecus: there will be glimpses, never truth
    Liza Deischer: that is an important 'shift'
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i feel like floating in the own ignorance and seeing glimses in codependent arising
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so right now it shifts towards communication
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and getting rid of schemas
    Liza Deischer: I noticed :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but as i get away from older there are sneaking new schemas in
    Yakuzza Lethecus: not yet verbalized


    Liza Deischer: this is so beautiful
    Liza Deischer: just by watching the process
    Liza Deischer: you're grapsing will get less
    Yakuzza Lethecus: trust is a key issue
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: (I should say key word, it can be an issue, but that means trouble :-))

    Liza Deischer: i need to go, see some friends
    Wol Euler: :)
    Liza Deischer: they have been wondering where Liza was in the last few weeks :-)
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Wol Euler: goodnight liza, enjoy the weekend
    Liza Deischer: thanks Wol for being here
    Liza Deischer: see you both
    Wol Euler: my pleasure, sorry I was late
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care liza
    Liza Deischer: np
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care wol
    Liza Deischer: cy both :-)
    Wol Euler: bye yaku, enjoy the weekend

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