2010.05.05 01:00 - Completing a huge cycle of thinking

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

    In the last consequence ancient and modern wisdom will meet at the same point.

       Bolonath Crystal: namaste cal and aztlan :)
        Aztlan Foss: hi!
        Calvino Rabeni: Hi, what's up?
        Aztlan Foss: nothing much, just was up late so I thought I log in :-D

    Burning Man: Liberation for creativity

        Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever been to the Burning Man festival in RL?
        Bolonath Crystal: never heard of
        Aztlan Foss: i've heard of it but I've never gone. It's on my to-do list though :-)
        Bolonath Crystal: what is it about?
        Calvino Rabeni: :)) same here, it's been on that list for *years*
        Calvino Rabeni: Basically, artists build a city in a vast empty desert
        Calvino Rabeni: then they fill it with their creations and live there for a week or so
        Calvino Rabeni: and after, it disappears
        Calvino Rabeni: There has been a virtual version in Second Life for several years
        Calvino Rabeni: I always get jealous when I talk to friends who go to the RL event
        Bolonath Crystal: so the whole city is a kind of big stage?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is a completely new construction each time
        Bolonath Crystal: wow
        Calvino Rabeni: afterward it goes back to being a big empty salt flat
        Calvino Rabeni: It is like virtual reality made with real stuff :)
        Aztlan Foss: yeah and you're not allowed to sell anything
        --BELL--
        Aztlan Foss: but you can give things away, so it builds a bit of a gift economy
        Calvino Rabeni: http://www.burningman.com/whatisburningman/
        Calvino Rabeni: Right Az, that is interesting about it
        Bolonath Crystal: it seems to me like a big useless effort. what is the reason for this?
        Calvino Rabeni: It is a triumph of imagination over matter
        Calvino Rabeni: Art is useless
        Bolonath Crystal: hello roger
        Calvino Rabeni: Which is one of it's main points
        Bolonath Crystal: i see
       Roger Ormenthal: Hello all
        Aztlan Foss: hi ROger
        Calvino Rabeni: Because it liberates creativity from having to play a role in a pre-existing functional machine, like the economy
        Calvino Rabeni: I suppose the French thought of this long ago
        Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_for_art%27s_sake

    "Reality and imagination isn't so different at all"

        Darren Islar: hi everyone
        Calvino Rabeni: Hello Roger, Darren
        Bolonath Crystal: hi darren
        Aztlan Foss: hi Darren
        Roger Ormenthal: Hi
        Calvino Rabeni: Today I day a car bumper sticker with a slogan getting at the same thing - "Imagination - the gateway to Reality"
        Bolonath Crystal: hm... to me reality and imagination isn't so different at all
        Calvino Rabeni: RIght true
        Aztlan Foss: yeah but reality tends to clash with other people's imagination
        Aztlan Foss: you can see the contrast best when you have a great idea for something
        Aztlan Foss: it's always great untill you try to actuall make it
        Aztlan Foss: once it's outside your head it somehow changes, it's different
        Calvino Rabeni: The neurophilosopher Thomas Metzinger puts it entertainingly, in an evolutionary perspective - why it should be useful to have a self, and one with a great imagination
        Calvino Rabeni: http://docartemis.com/brainsciencepo...p67-metzinger/
        Calvino Rabeni: This was about evolving consciousness as a virtual reality that is SO successful, we don't even recognize that is what it is :)
        Calvino Rabeni: A truly astounding accomplishment
        Bolonath Crystal: in fact
        Bolonath Crystal: but nothing new actually
        Bolonath Crystal: it is written in the vedas
        Bolonath Crystal: it is fascinating how old and new wisdom meet each other
        Calvino Rabeni: So perhaps, for science to get there, will complete a huge cycle of thinking - yes
        --BELL--

    Buddhism vs. Advaita Vedanta: Does "self" exist?

        Calvino Rabeni: Bolo, do you know the story, some man asked one of the hindu gods - what is Maya? and he said, well walk along with me for a little while, let's talk about it?
        Aztlan Foss: thanks for the link I'm litening now
        Bolonath Crystal: no cal
        Calvino Rabeni: (I've heard it, but can't remember the names in the story)
        Calvino Rabeni: It was a good story - the answer couldn't be described short of creating an entire universe and lifetime for the questioner to experience
        Darren Islar: brb
        Bolonath Crystal: imo there are no other universes except those created by maya. but nevertheless there is something behind mayan universes: the "something" that uses maya to create. this "something" is exactly what i am trying to experience with the help of e.g. the ysbs exercise
        Bolonath Crystal: i call it "true self"
        Darren Islar: InBuddhism ther si no concept of 'true self'
        --BELL--
        Bolonath Crystal: yes. it sounds like the opposite of the advaita vedanta, which says that there is only true self and nothing else
        Calvino Rabeni: Buddhists have something like "right action"
        Calvino Rabeni: So if there's no actor, why would it matter...
        Darren Islar: hmmm, that way
        Calvino Rabeni: Otherwise, is there a way to be "more" one's self?
        Calvino Rabeni: Or less?
        Darren Islar: but not quite true
        Bolonath Crystal: looking closely we find no difference between those views. what we usually call "self" is itself a creation of maya
        Darren Islar: buddhist use the concept of consiousness
        Darren Islar: yes, but working with the concept of no true self, gives you the oppotunity to look differently at truth

    "We really are on the edge of the difference between hinduism and buddhism, if there is any in the end"

        Bolonath Crystal: there is no difference between a self, that doesn't truely exist and a self that includes everything
        Calvino Rabeni: The concept of "being oneself" doesn't seem to have any traction in Western philosophy either - because it looks like a tautology - as in, what else could I be?
        Darren Islar: consiousness is a concept of changing and moving an therefor can experience different concepts of truth
        Calvino Rabeni: Unless self is a changing, becoming thing, like an acorn might become an oak tree
        Calvino Rabeni: and the consciousness / experience varies depending on actions and choices
        Darren Islar: thsi is very interesting because we really are on the edge of the difference between hinduism and buddhism, if there is any in the end
        Darren Islar: but I think the difference is how you percieve the world
        Bolonath Crystal: advaita vedanta is a hindu philosophy which is very much influenced by buddhism
        Calvino Rabeni: There's a triple divide - hinduism, buddhism, western philosophy
        Darren Islar: yes they are very close
        Darren Islar: maybe Cal, pondering about it.....
        Darren Islar: pondering about it because the way of thinking the mind that produces the concept is quite different
        Darren Islar: *the wy of thinking of the mind
        Bolonath Crystal: hinduism is a medley of very different religions/philosophies which have only one thing in common: they are indian. so there is nothing like a "hindu thinking"
        Calvino Rabeni: Nor I think, buddhism much like the doctrine of the historical buddha-man
        Calvino Rabeni: But, together, they store many of the ways people like to think about world and mind
        Darren Islar: no, you're right Bolo, but the 'eastern' mind is brought up in a very differentt way
        Calvino Rabeni: Personally, I don't think the "ways of thinking about mind" are that influential about what it ends up becoming
        Darren Islar: it is so interesting that Tibetans for instance don't even have a name for guilt, while guilt in Christianity is what Christianity seems to be all about
        Darren Islar: in the end, I agree Cal
        Bolonath Crystal: right, cal. in the last consequence they all meet at the same point
        Bolonath Crystal: i would like to see "guilt" replaced by "reason"
        --BELL--
        Calvino Rabeni: What would be the effect of that replacement, Bolonath?
        Darren Islar: right Bolo, but what I meant is that the western mind has started of in a very different place. I can replace sin for all kinds of different things, but guilt is still part of me
        Calvino Rabeni: Personally, "guilt" seems a legal term, rather than an existential one
        Calvino Rabeni: Like the concept of having a :"right"
        Darren Islar: we made it legal :-)
        Bolonath Crystal: cal: it is merely a psychological difference. reason implicates: if i do this, that will happen. guilt says: it is wrong to do this
        Calvino Rabeni: It says, with knowledge comes responsibility
        Calvino Rabeni: Buddhists have "making merit" for instance
        Darren Islar: nice thought Cal
        Bolonath Crystal: i am very sorry to leave the discussion at this point, but i have to go back to work
        Darren Islar: bye Bolo
        Calvino Rabeni: Take care, be well Bolonath :)
        Bolonath Crystal: see you next time :) om shanti
        Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
        Darren Islar: see you :-)
        Darren Islar: how long is that podcast of yours Cal?
        Darren Islar: Aztlan seems to be drown into it
        Calvino Rabeni: The brain science podcasts are usually about an hour - you can get them on iTunes. Not sure if easy listening for non-English speakers
        Darren Islar: probably not
        Darren Islar: and I wonder houw Aztlan feels about it now :-)
        Calvino Rabeni: But, some speakers have a pleasant tone and rhythm
        Darren Islar: hmmmm
        Calvino Rabeni: which is half the pleasure of listening
        Darren Islar: :-)
        Darren Islar: true
        Darren Islar: I need to go too, the washing machine is waiting :-)
        Calvino Rabeni: May all garments be cleansed :)
        Darren Islar: bye Cal and Aztlan
        Darren Islar: hope to see you more often Aztlan
        Calvino Rabeni: Bye Darren
        Darren Islar: oops
        Calvino Rabeni: I'm off also, Aztlan, take care

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