2010.05.07 07:00 - The Meep Koan: Feeling How We're Seeing the Center

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza, joined by Eden, Yakuzza, Fael, and Zen.

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eden! :))
    Eden Haiku: Good morning Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Another great outfit
    Eden Haiku: Thanks, you too ;) We are in short skirts this morning:)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Yes maybe something to do with a feeling of Spring
    Eden Haiku: yes! Gorgeous day here!
    Eliza Madrigal: After the heavy rains?
    Eliza Madrigal:I share your love of thunderstorms, btw
    Eden Haiku: Yes. Rain was only in the morning. Then there were winds but with sun.
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, winds of sunshine
    Eden Haiku: Oh you got them too? Florida used to be always gorgeous ...?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, during the summer it storms nearly every day... hitting late afternoon...
    Eliza Madrigal: which is a blessing because otherwise everything would sizzle
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eden Haiku: Ah...I"m back with Viewer 1 this morning. In 2, I,m always a cloud, no point wearing cute outfits ;)

    Fael arrives...

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fael :))
    Fael Illyar: Hi eliza, Eden :)
    Fael Illyar: I'm using Emerald. No clouds here
    Eliza Madrigal: fairy of flowers and light
    Fael Illyar: and yes, I'm wearing cute outfit :)
    Eden Haiku: Oh Fael, you are a delight to see, fluffy wings and gold and white and... it is gorgoeous!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes quite
    Fael Illyar: meep! :)
    Eden Haiku: So weird, when I log with Viewer 2 now, I'm scaled down to the size of a 12 year old child...
    Eliza Madrigal: Odd!
    Eden Haiku: Good thing I have a back up avatar...
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Fael Illyar: viewer 2 remembers what you were wearing when you last logged in with it. Even if you log in with older viewers, you get the viewer 2.0 clothes back on your next login with it
    Eden Haiku: No, that is with Viewer 1 rather. Viewer 2 is a cloud.

    Yakuzza arrives...

    Fael Illyar: Hi Yaku :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya
    Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Ya :
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eden Haiku: Yes, sometimes I wear the top of viewer 1 and the pants of viewer 2 or vice versa ...

    I throw out a net, for thoughts on Insight...

    Eliza Madrigal: Last night I found myself awake rather late... signed on to find a few still at PaB 1.5 hrs after the 'official' session.
    Eden Haiku: Wow!
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, I was surprised! The discussion was "Insight" and "Creativity"
    Eden Haiku: Were they at the pavilion?
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: And now that word... Insight... I keep thinking about it :)
    Eden Haiku: ;)
    Fael Illyar: meep :)
    Eliza Madrigal: how it differs from being productive or 'smart'...
    Eliza Madrigal: doesn't come from the same 'place' I guess?

    :) Eden never misses a beat, noticing that I'd been up due to writing on the PaB Wiki...

    Eden Haiku: Loved you insights about the after SF retreat on the wiki Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, thank you Eden. :) I finally felt inspired to write more personally
    Eden Haiku: You getting there with your own agenda about what you wanted to get insights about...
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed!
    Fael Illyar: Somehow writing doesn't tend to be my thing... well except for realtime conversation
    Eden Haiku: And then, beeing flooded by the fog and the dogs and the walking...
    Eliza Madrigal: You don't keep journals of any sort, Fael?
    Fael Illyar: none
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, yes flooded is a perfect description Eden!
    Eliza Madrigal: Almost shut down... awestruck in a gentle way :)

    Many ways of exploration and expression...     

    Eden Haiku: oh Fael, you express yourself so well with textures and forms. You created this outfit yourself did'nt you?
    Fael Illyar: well, I've become able to have some long term exchanges with email too recently but...
    Fael Illyar: me? no, I bought this :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So maybe you are more 'responsive' in your way of writing Fael
    Fael Illyar: yes, responsive works.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fael Illyar: actually... looking at it from this point of view, it ties in with my general lack of initiative unless someone else triggers it somehow.
    Eden Haiku: Oh... but you create wings or tattoos don't you? Would you hand me a landmark by the way? I would love to visit your shop.
    Fael Illyar: there :)
    Eden Haiku: Thank you. I love the name: Astral Blossom. ;)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fael Illyar: almost every shop owner in SL has their own shop in their picks :)
    Eliza Madrigal: That's a good tip!

    Eden Haiku: Ah, that is a nice hint, thank you ;)

    The feeling of process... 

    Eliza Madrigal: btw, here is the link to what I wrote further, about the retreat :

    After - San Francisco 

    Eliza Madrigal: When this writing was finshed, I felt I could have gone on and on... wRitten pages about just 'being around' the participants. It was a very concentrated time which I'm only beginning to unpack. Anyway, thanks for letting me share :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal: And, I could only write about it when I wasn't trying to make something from it... maybe something to see there
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Eden Haiku: I like very much when you say "unpack". I feel I,m still "unpacking" from my trip to India. having a word for it makes the feeling more understandable ;)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: We take so much in, all the time....
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Coming from mathematical/logical background, I might call it analysing but that's much easier to misunderstand.'
    Fael Illyar: I actually usually refer to it as digesting :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Zen :)
    Eden Haiku: Ah yes, Fael, I would think the analyzing can take place but only after the unpacking.

    Zen arrives...

    Zen Arado: Hi all:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, true Fael... integration
    Eden Haiku: hello Zen!
    Eliza Madrigal: Analyzing does have a cold sense to it... like sorting or categorizing, labeling?
    Eden Haiku: To unpack, digest, integrate and then analyze...
    Zen Arado: cold logic
    Eliza Madrigal: Of course useful and necessary too
    Fael Illyar: all those words with their subtly (or less subtly) different meanings all point to the same center though :)
    Fael Illyar: a direction
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, true... Even 'cold lOgic' can be something open and insightful
    Eden Haiku: The emotional absorption and sorting has to take place, in my case, before any kind of analytical skills can be used if ever...;)
    Eliza Madrigal: like a well organized closet :)

    Taking the word 'analysis' out of the realm of Mathmatics for a moment, and considering as it is used in counseling or in dreams, it can indeed be a fluid and opening process.

    Actually, Math adepts tell me that it is the same in their realm, but I've not oft had that experience. :)   

    Fael Illyar: Eden, that's the kind of misunderstanding I meant :)
    Fael Illyar: that you understand it as "using analytical skills"
    Eden Haiku: yes Fale, I think when you say pointing to a direction, at a center I see what you mean...
    Fael Illyar: to me, it is analysis, whether it happens consciously (analytical skills) or unconsciously (digesting)
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I'm much like that too... there is a kind of delay... taking in---> letting that integrate ----> thinking/sorting
    Eden Haiku: @Eliza my closet hasn't reached the analytical skills stage yet ...:)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Zen Arado: like my inventory :)
    Eden Haiku: likewise;)

    The nature of thinking...     

    Fael Illyar: that's the nature of thinking and analysis... always applied afterwards.
    Eliza Madrigal: As you see with my writing about the retreat, I couldn't really do it until it had rested a while... iNcubated :)
    Eliza Madrigal sits on eggs
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Zen Arado: but your first impressions might have been truer Eliza
    Eden Haiku: Picturing Eliza sitting on a big ostrich egg...
    Fael Illyar: even the reasons we put in for out actions... those are afterthoughts.
    Zen Arado: your analytical mind can distort too
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, but the first impressions are overwhelming... they aren't articulateable
    Fael Illyar: they come after the action (or the impulse for the action)
    Zen Arado: selects favourably.....
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes there is an instant snapshot that I can share, but hm, maybe not the norm
    Zen Arado: like we do with memory
    Zen Arado: leave out the bad bits
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm more likely to romanticize in the moment I think... that's part of what needs to be shed before I can share

    Eden Haiku:I can feel our minds, with their own different ways of seeing and doing trying to find a common ground here.
    Fael Illyar: when you're in a familiar environment, there's so much that you can easily understand that it's easy to let the parts you don't understand slip by without notice.
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, yes Eden... how fascinating :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that's my feeling too Eden :)

    Getting into not knowing...     

    Zen Arado: I'm getting into 'not knowing'
    Zen Arado: don't trust rational process the way I used to
    Fael Illyar: Zen, yes, so easy to forget some small detail of the process that'd be needed (or even be unaware it'd be needed) that the whole process ends up giving not so useful result.
    Fael Illyar: our unconscious is much better suited to such task :)
    Fael Illyar: but of course, you don't get certainties out of subconscious :)
    Zen Arado: if there are any:)

    Eden stands up and begins to work with a prim!

    Eden Haiku: And I'm trying to follow each one of you and it is like you are going in different directions. I would like to get up and draw on some chalkboard so we know the directions we are heading...

    Eliza Madrigal: There are these books out, about 'decisiveness' and one common theme is that we *trust* our logic, but often our best decisions are the emotional ones...

    Actually the 'problem if there is one', is that we often repress our emotions in favor of logic, as though it must be either/or!

    Eliza Madrigal: What a great idea that would be Eden!
    Zen Arado: yes EDen
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care eden
    Eden Haiku: Oh Yakuzza is there too ? Hi Yakuzza!
    Zen Arado: but you can't draw in SL?
    Eden Haiku: no, no I'm just going to the chalk board...
    Fael Illyar: Is Eden going?
    Eliza Madrigal: Adelene made a board once actually
    Zen Arado: I used to use a LOT of visuals for teaching
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Zen Arado: you can make a board but how do you draw on it?
    Eliza Madrigal: We each have different maps... if we made them into transparencies we might layer them and see a clear image :)
    Zen Arado: you use paint program I guess and then upload image
    Eden Haiku: Yes, holographic coonversation Eliza...
    Fael Illyar: yes, you could do that.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Fael Illyar: or just create the prims needed for the shape :)
    Fael Illyar: and move them in place
    Eden Haiku: That would be a nice collective Art of being project Zen...



    Eden Haiku:I see all things in clocks...
    Eliza Madrigal: In clocks?
    Eden Haiku: I want this to look like some high tech fancy hologram but it looks like a cushion...
    Eliza Madrigal: Or a big pink ostrich egg :)
    Eden Haiku: yes, like in mandalas with 12 sectors... Like you say, at 2 O clock there is a boat...

    Fael Illyar: try setting the outer shell to very transparent and add some glow effect :)
    Eliza Madrigal: What an interesting idea though.... to feel the ways we see
    Fael Illyar: for a reasonable amount of glow, you have to type in the number by hand
    Eden Haiku: Thanks Fael...
    Zen Arado: but there is a dufferent kind of knowing other than logical thought but I don't think it is all emotions
    Eden Haiku: Don,t mind me, keep talking...
    Eliza Madrigal: Agree Zen
    Zen Arado: more like unconscious I guess
    Zen Arado: stripping away egoic mind delusions
    Eliza Madrigal: To me its like a cross-over....
    Eliza Madrigal: there is a kind of 'trying' to enter into rest, then an openness out of which arises 'insight' which isn't the same as the thinking you used to enter
    Eliza Madrigal: but in that insight, the thinking is brilliant
    Zen Arado: yes Eliza....openness...
    Eden Haiku: The wheel I used has 12 sections: triggering emotion/reason/perception/
    Eden Haiku: That is 1 2 and 3
    Eliza Madrigal: and perception would encompass all the 'physical' senses?
    Eden Haiku: I would say right now Eliza would be starting from 1 (triggering emotion), Zen from 2 (reason( Fael from 3 (perception). Now I mean, it can be different at other times.
    Eliza Madrigal: any of the doors work :)

    Eden Haiku: yes Eliza, all senses even the 6th one. marcel Proust, the French writer is a good example for this.
    Fael Illyar: I feel that perception is the base of what we are.

    Zen Arado: some Zen koans are about not knowing

    Zen Arado: Dizang asked Fayan, "Where are you going?"

    Fayan said, "Around on pilgrimage."

    Dizang said, "What is the purpose of pilgrimage?"

    Fayan said, "I don't know."

    Dizang said, "Not knowing is most intimate."

    Eden Haiku: :) good koan Zen...
    Fael Illyar: I like it :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Yes, very nice!
    Eden Haiku: Am I boring you with this? (I plan to go to 12...)
    Eliza Madrigal: No! Keep going! :)
    Eliza Madrigal appreciates seeing through many 'open' angles at once
    Eden Haiku: Thanks. So 4 is intention/5 is inner movement/ 6 is sensation
    Zen Arado: we have to experiment with visual aids
    Eden Haiku: 7 is outer movement 8 is feelings 9 is decision
    Eden Haiku: Yes, Zen, we have a find a way to draw in SLl!
    Zen Arado: the trouble with knowing is that it is 'pre knowing'
    Zen Arado: if we think we know it closes off understanding in the moment

    Eden Haiku: I took the door of decision to stand up, go this virtual chalkboard of a lime glowing circle and play school with you this morning ;)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Zen Arado: and we use stale knowledge instead
    Eden Haiku: 10 is imagination 11 is action 12 is intuition.

    Eliza Madrigal: Would intuition and insight, be equivalent for you, Eden?
    Fael Illyar: to me, knowing is like a cache (computer tech term). It's used to store information so there's no need to go the long way each time it's needed.
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: as with TSK, it seems there is knowing, but then there is Knowing, and in Knowing, knowing isn't stale
    Eden Haiku: What a wonderful analogy fale: knowing as a cache!
    Zen Arado: agree Fael...but it's that very usefulness that can be dangerous I think
    Eliza Madrigal: only if we think we are merely 'useful' beings?

    Eden Haiku: Where did we start, anybody remembers?
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Fael Illyar: in single processor systems it's simple thing to implement. Only that one processor will cause changes to happen. But when you go into multiprocessor, you start needing increasingly complex tricks to know when the cache is old
    Zen Arado: reminds me of the Victorian philosopher JS Mill
    Eliza Madrigal: Insight! :)

    In the center of not knowing...         

    Eden Haiku: I remember feeling lost trying to follow you going in all different directions pointing to the same center...
    Eliza Madrigal: I feel lost... but kind of happily lost
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fael Illyar: meep meep! :)
    Zen Arado: he said you should examine all your knowledge from time to time lest it become 'dead dogma'
    Eden Haiku: meep meep ;)
    Fael Illyar: Zen, yes, refresh the cache :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Spring Cleaning
    Eden Haiku: haha!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: don't think Mill would approve of meep meep :)
    Fael Illyar: meep meep! :)
    Eden Haiku: I don',t even know what it means but I like it ;))
    Eliza Madrigal: Sigh. My daughter is relentlessly texting me to bring her end of the year study guide that she forgot...
    Zen Arado: don't know is most intimate Eden :)
    Fael Illyar: yes, as long as you don't know what it means, you'll understand :)

    Eliza Madrigal: The Meep Koan
    Eden Haiku: Oh oh... well, I guess I will be on my way out too... A walk by the river on this wonderfu morning!
    Eliza Madrigal: Lovely, Eden :) So nice have gotten to spend time with you all this morning :))
    Zen Arado: ok I'll make my dinner
    Zen Arado: fish and chips
    Eden Haiku: meeps meeps with a broad smile
    Fael Illyar: have fun Eden :)
    Eliza Madrigal: chip chips... da de do de do she boom boom ::singing:::
    Zen Arado: have nice walk
    Eden Haiku: Fish and chips... that is so good!
    Eliza Madrigal: S'wonderful, s'wonderful, s'wonderful... good luck my baby...
    Eliza Madrigal: heh, sorry :) Seem to be bubbling over
    Zen Arado: that you should care for me.....
    Eden Haiku: Thank you. Was nice seeing you all, thanks Eliza and meep meep fale, And Yakuzza, it ias always a pleasure ;)))
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
    Fael Illyar: have fun Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe! Zen hears me :)
    Eden Haiku: *Fael
    Zen Arado: bye all
    Eliza Madrigal: Adieu
    Eden Haiku: Adieu
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eden
    Fael Illyar: Well, time for me to go too. Have fun Yaku :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i am just sitting so to speak
    Fael Illyar waves happily.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care fael


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    Viewing 5 of 5 comments: view all
    Originally written on 21:51, 07 May 2010
    Storm giggles at Eliza's color coded cryptogram!
    Posted 22:22, 14 May 2010
    Originally written on 22:38, 07 May 2010
    :::winks and giggles back :::::
    Posted 22:22, 14 May 2010
    Originally written on 03:28, 08 May 2010
    Indeed! Waving to someone through the log in a color code is quite an upgrade Eliza! She ( the mysterious one) will be delighted! If I may add to my little demonstration here (some of the lines vanished from the log it seems).The first 3 segments of the wheel were: 1 emotional trigger, 2 reason 3 perception. Then you said something like "we can enter through any door" and I said it seemed to me you were entering (at this moment, because it changes) through the emotional trigger, Zen was entering through reason, and Fael through perception. I'm having one those didactic days I guess...:-)
    Posted 22:22, 14 May 2010
    Originally written on 11:47, 08 May 2010
    Thank you Eden! I can't tell you how much trouble I had posting this log. Each time I'd save, things were in different places, so thanks for telling me. I'll dig up the log and try to fix it today... hoping wiki will be less moody!
    Posted 22:22, 14 May 2010
    Originally written on 16:28, 08 May 2010
    tada! I checked and think everything is there now. Thanks a lot :)
    Posted 22:22, 14 May 2010
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