2010.05.08 07:00 - Clint Eastwood

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    The Guardian for this meeting was sophia Placebo. The comments are by sophia Placebo.

    Woolcinder Oxidor: i feel like i am in a clint eastwood movie
    Calvino Rabeni: (Clint would never say that (?) )
    Woolcinder Oxidor: ofcourse...he hardly says anyhting at all...thats how he became an instant hit
    Calvino Rabeni: He's all about action
    Qt Core: or in most of his western movies about the tension before the action
    Calvino Rabeni: This popularity then, reflects a public jaundiced by a flood of empty words (?)
    Calvino Rabeni: In their (the viewer's) fantasy - what's going on?
    Woolcinder Oxidor: always scribble, scribble , scribble
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe something like - "I would not scribble and yack, I would finally walk my talk"
    Calvino Rabeni: Where art history and popular culture overlap - if there is such a place
    Calvino Rabeni: Are the questions of - why is *that* popular now
    Woolcinder Oxidor: consumerism...thats the word
    Woolcinder Oxidor: we are vulgar consumers
    Calvino Rabeni: And I'd have to somewhat grudgingly (?) say popularity is related to some expressive potential, same as art
    Woolcinder Oxidor: and all art is quite useless
    Calvino Rabeni: Which would be to question the purpose of art
    Calvino Rabeni: We say it is useless - that liberates it from consumerism, probably a good thing
    Calvino Rabeni: Or liberates it from the production fetish of the economic system of which consumerism is an expression
    Calvino Rabeni: But is it really useless :)
    Woolcinder Oxidor: these were Wildes words...Oscar wildes
    Woolcinder Oxidor: he said one can forgive a man for making a useful thing as long as he does not admire it
    Woolcinder Oxidor: the only excuse for making a useless thing is that one admires it intensely
    Woolcinder Oxidor: there is so much wisdom in his word play
    Calvino Rabeni: Art proves - something we need to know- we are not slaves to productivity and to utility
    Woolcinder Oxidor: the cling eastwood movies were also the work of art
    Woolcinder Oxidor: even the highest form...purely for arts sake
    Calvino Rabeni: Popular and public art comes from or reveals complex and contentious values
    Calvino Rabeni: there is the idea that the art should be disturbing
    Qt Core: have to go, bye all
    Calvino Rabeni: how long has that idea been with us
    Calvino Rabeni: Which ideas kind of "win out" now, in public life?
    Calvino Rabeni: Beauty? Disturbing?
    Woolcinder Oxidor: relativity of morals
    Calvino Rabeni: Clint's movies are moral parables often
    Calvino Rabeni: They often say - an individual must find an absolute morality
    Woolcinder Oxidor: the whole Hollywood is a great moral parable
    Calvino Rabeni: What's the jist of the Hollywood parable?
    Woolcinder Oxidor: most "immoral" works are independent
    Calvino Rabeni: Independent as in minority as in, risking popular dislike?
    Woolcinder Oxidor: the good always prevails...even if it is weak
    Calvino Rabeni: As in, not making money
    Woolcinder Oxidor: love lives for ever
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a little love mixed into the darkest stories
    Woolcinder Oxidor: no...rather not having a heirarchy...and less money too perhaps
    Bertram Jacobus: sry - was not very in today here - and leave now again ... may all beings be happy please - ty and namasté ! :-)
    Woolcinder Oxidor: beauty never lasts :)
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks Bert, take care be well
    Woolcinder Oxidor: Bye Bert
    sophia Placebo: bye bert
    Bertram Jacobus: :-))
    Woolcinder Oxidor: and neither does youth
    Woolcinder Oxidor: but why doesnt it work then
    Calvino Rabeni: Say a bit more, Wool?
    Calvino Rabeni: Why doesn't what - art? - work for ... ?
    Woolcinder Oxidor: yes art? since hollywood makes art too.....why doesnt it work to better our lives
    Calvino Rabeni: I find it hard to evaluate the ways it adds and subtracts from a better life
    Calvino Rabeni: Without Hollywood, there might be a more popular art culture - less than a mass one
    Woolcinder Oxidor: i wasnt thinnking of an analysis either...but what do you feel
    Calvino Rabeni: What I feel is, to collect certain art and resist the rest
    Woolcinder Oxidor: no what do you feel for the modern popular art
    Calvino Rabeni: Many complex feelings
    Calvino Rabeni: I feel, often they raise questions, and then there's not time to give them a proper attention, because of the onslaught of competing products
    Woolcinder Oxidor: yes they certainly possess a short attention span
    Calvino Rabeni: I also feel, the speak to people other than myself in different ways than to me
    Calvino Rabeni: That gives me a curiousity along with an uneasy
    Calvino Rabeni: *unease
    Woolcinder Oxidor: yes you interact with everything how you are
    Calvino Rabeni: true
    Woolcinder Oxidor: and it leaves you unsatisfied...what else could you ask for :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: it speaks to an unsatisfied need, or maybe unsatisfiable?
    Woolcinder Oxidor: unsatisfiable surely....thats what keeps us begging for more
    Calvino Rabeni: That might be an unfortunate part of the production machine
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe art could be designed to satisfy also
    Calvino Rabeni: but it wouldn't make sense to the economic machine
    Woolcinder Oxidor: yes it could be...but then who will want it
    Woolcinder Oxidor: not just the achine Cal...people themelves do not seek satisfaction
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke a good quality meal, it could serve some nutrition of the spirit / soul, which might last a while
    Calvino Rabeni: Or it could be junk food
    Sartre Placebo: i think we only need extremly popular art and the art right next to us, i even accept a metallica, a madonna even a rammstein i accept everything that is international but i don´t like national stars since i see the machine on a global level as something we all share
    Woolcinder Oxidor: satisfaction is eternal....it is very ethcial....we live in the sensual...we want to live for the moment
    Sartre Placebo: while all the nation´s own big brother and alike needs to be banned
    Calvino Rabeni: Favoring more local art then?
    Sartre Placebo: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds good overall to me
    Calvino Rabeni: less homogenous, less mechanical, more creative, more diverse
    Woolcinder Oxidor: yes and more uniqueness and less mimicry
    Calvino Rabeni: However ... there's something in people that needs mass spectacles -- I think that needs to be met somehow, but doubt it is "art's" proper job
    Sartre Placebo: still we need some stars to learn how to cathegorize the art
    Sartre Placebo: because i like talking to ppl in other nations, i can talk about michael jackson with somebody in china, but not about max mutzke
    Sartre Placebo: i like ppl doing painting in the group here, i never had exposure to such creative ppl
    Sartre Placebo: but i don´t care about those other stars in the scene
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't really either
    Calvino Rabeni: But if you want to talk to people of other nations, it will be about something they know already, or you would have to introduce them to it
    Calvino Rabeni: And that introduction would make things mre challenging
    Sartre Placebo: there is a basis set they should already know
    Sartre Placebo: to start from that to describe what i want to talk about
    Woolcinder Oxidor: that also holds for people of the same nation doesnt it
    Sartre Placebo: about elements in our culture
    Sartre Placebo: yes
    Sartre Placebo: even socio economic backgrounds in the same nation can be extreme
    Sartre Placebo: or when nations are true meltingpoints of many cultures
    Calvino Rabeni: ther may be a dilemma, they don't have what you wish, as a proper basis for the discussion
    Woolcinder Oxidor: what you are basically doing here is first describing your world....and then letting them describe theirs
    Woolcinder Oxidor: or perhaps the way you see your world...and then seeking their reflections
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Woolcinder Oxidor: and then you compare the two...exchanging notes
    Woolcinder Oxidor: and then if the picture coincides..you blend
    Woolcinder Oxidor: and even if it doesnt...you take away something you didnt have before
    Calvino Rabeni: For an example, I've never heard of max mutzke
    Woolcinder Oxidor: neither have i
    Sartre Placebo: he´s already gone from our charts
    Sartre Placebo: he was number 1
    Sartre Placebo: in germany here :)
    Calvino Rabeni: So I wonder, what I could "take away" from a discussion
    Woolcinder Oxidor: but isnt exchanging ideas more important than sharing people or events
    Sartre Placebo: so i really don´t try to keep up with our charts any longer
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, then charts, I presume, a musical artist
    Sartre Placebo: yes, he was a singer or is i dunno
    Woolcinder Oxidor: after all what use is a conversation between a chinese and a maltese that revolves around michael jackson
    Calvino Rabeni: Ok, I've then for better or worse, gleaned a new thing - that charts figure in a part of your art world :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Dunno, I'm curious why a chinese would like jackson
    Sartre Placebo: they don´t have to like him
    Sartre Placebo: i never liked him
    Sartre Placebo: everyone knows him and his music
    Sartre Placebo: you can talk about movements like the moonwalk, werewolfs
    Woolcinder Oxidor: that makes it interestig surely ,,,but then it isnt about michael jackson at all...its about you
    Sartre Placebo: michael jackson is not his private life
    Sartre Placebo: it´s what he stands for in art and culture, so nobody needs to discuss if he did little boys or not^^
    Calvino Rabeni: Take "Rap" for instance - I've heard it in different nations - worked into their musical art somehow - but surely it means something different in those places
    Woolcinder Oxidor: so then in the end it is really the idea that interests you not the personality...although the personality srves in bringing that idea to fore
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe there's a universal appeal of stardom and fame, quite apart from the art involved
    Calvino Rabeni: So I'm not sure the "personality" of jackson is really what stands out
    Sartre Placebo: yes wool, they provide examples of morality and ethics and civity with their private lives but basicly i would take them only for contemporary examples of their kind of art as a common knowledge of many ppl interested in that kind of art
    Woolcinder Oxidor: i recall a work by heidegger,,,:the origin of the work of art"
    Woolcinder Oxidor: http://homepage.newschool.edu/~quigl...ger-owasum.pdf
    Sartre Placebo: thx
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd question the premise of the hermeneutical circle as a closed system
    Woolcinder Oxidor: the work(of art) sets up a world and keeps its force
    Calvino Rabeni: Good point
    Woolcinder Oxidor: The context of the work affects its "mode of being"—the way it presents itself—the way it speaks.
    Woolcinder Oxidor: to understand a thing according to its "authentic" or real nature, we must "think differently", i.e. we must "think the Being of beings" and look into the notion of truth and its relation to the work of art
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a dilemma for philosophers / critics - when they think about something, in a sense, become elitists and therefore "leave" the "world" in which the popular art exists
    Woolcinder Oxidor: well he described the greek parthenon as one and also some juggler and probably cock fights ...i dont really recall
    Calvino Rabeni: This creates a serious "double bind" or contradiction for the art critic or the cultural anthropologist, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: So that sounds like an effort to break out of that circle
    Woolcinder Oxidor: nietzsche was also interested in a tight rope walker
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe to make it more virtuous or something
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I thought the tightrope walker was meant, ironically
    Calvino Rabeni: As in - "I bought a tightrope walker costume"
    Calvino Rabeni: But I'd guess nietzsche's ideal mensch was supposed to be responsible for how he was trapped in the circle, and do something about it ?
    Woolcinder Oxidor: nietzsche himslef died a madman before tranvaluating the values
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree with something wool mentioned earlier
    Calvino Rabeni: which is the need to allow the authentic thing, into the art theory
    Woolcinder Oxidor: so he was successful in burning the tablets but couldnt come up with newones
    Calvino Rabeni: Most take that as a cautionary tale
    Calvino Rabeni: But, surely some one has had him as a study
    Sartre Placebo: but that left the ppl more to think about nietzsche that so much left open
    Calvino Rabeni: and looked at the new tablets he hoped to bring back from the mountain
    Woolcinder Oxidor: i recall one philospher who quite honours him
    Sartre Placebo: his sister posted ,,the will to power" which was abused by the nazi´s, but he cleary was against protonazi´s like his brother in law and antisemitism of wagner
    Woolcinder Oxidor: he called him the ecstatic mad man of the west
    Woolcinder Oxidor: i must leave now
    Woolcinder Oxidor: was a pleasure Being here :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It's hard to look back on Nietzche without the "rock star" archetype
    Woolcinder Oxidor: bye Sartre, Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I think it's a good idea for me to leave also :)
    Sartre Placebo: bye wool
    Calvino Rabeni: THanks Sertre, Woolcinder
    Calvino Rabeni: *Sartre
    Sartre Placebo: take care cal
    Calvino Rabeni: You too, Sartre
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