2010.05.09 13:00 - Words as greater treasures

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden. This session had several themes: beginning with illusion, the multiple levels of meaning in words and language, the treasures lost and gained in translations from language to language, Being as more than we can express/experience in any of a number of languages.  Following the first hour, several stayed and explored some wonderings about playing and being, about doubt and uncertainty, and a number of other issues.

    Maxine Walden: Sorry I could not make the guardian meeting this morning. I will read the log.
    Eliza Madrigal: You were missed Maxine, but of course life happens :)
    Mickorod Renard: I went to a model airplane show today, amazing with lots of jets too
    Eliza Madrigal: We started off talking about 'drop day' and then moved into 'time' :)
    Eos Amaterasu: We discussed doing a "drop day" on Saturday(s), and a "drop hour" in the hour just before Guardian meetings
    Mickorod Renard: I need to drop lots
    Maxine Walden: ah, sounds interesting, all topics, drop hour, drop day and time
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) From airplanes Mick?
    Eos Amaterasu needs to ride jets
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone - Maxine, long time no see :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Can you say more about what you found in the jets, Mick?
    Maxine Walden: yes, Cal, good to see you
    Mickorod Renard: well, they were so life like
    Eos Amaterasu: The Cylon peers into the jet, and asks "are you alive? prove it!@"
    Mickorod Renard: and in the air they could have been mistaken for the real thing
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,I remember that well eos
    Mickorod Renard: but it reminded me of illusion
    Mickorod Renard: and made me wonder how much we may be living in a life of illusion
    Eos Amaterasu wonders what a lusion is
    Maxine Walden: say more, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: ouch, i knew i should have stayed quiet
    Eos Amaterasu: oh, please go ahead, Mick
    Maxine Walden: sorry, not to cause pressure, Mick
    Eos Amaterasu: we get to talk so rarely!
    Maxine Walden: hi, Ara
    Mickorod Renard: well, lots of things recently have made me ponder on this subject
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Eos Amaterasu: Arah!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara :)
    Mickorod Renard: like the indian guy who claims to have not eaten for 70 years
    Eliza Madrigal: ?!
    Mickorod Renard: or something like that
    Mickorod Renard: maybe 60 years
    Maxine Walden: 70 years or 7 years...something extraordinary as I recall
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I think I could make 60, dunno about 70 :)
    Mickorod Renard: they are monitoring him now,a24 hours a day
    Mickorod Renard: just to make sure he isnt cheating
    Maxine Walden: yes, heard that, trying to learn as well as to verify his story
    Mickorod Renard: I guess
    Eliza Madrigal watched a little article on bonzai trees a few weeks ago... and the way they have potential to bring you in ... can feel you are sheltered beneath this towering tree, when 'actually' just a tiny bush...
    Mickorod Renard: yes, but I think there is a degree of belief, they are also monitoring to find out how he sustains himself
    Eos Amaterasu: Mick, could you suggest a way we could explore that in the upcoming 90 secs?
    Mickorod Renard: not really
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Eos Amaterasu: maybe watch for that
    Maxine Walden: good question, Eos
    Maxine Walden: maybe how we sustain ourselves, various ways to sustain ourselves...during the 90 sec?
    Darren Islar: hi QT
    Qt Core: hi all
    Eos Amaterasu sees QT manifesting as a box, perfect for this exercise
    arabella Ella: Ciao Qt!
    Eliza Madrigal: what you say about the planes is similar to the bonsai Mick ... perspective/proportion are malleable. SL plays with that, and hm... hadn't thought about 'belief' being kind of the same
    Darren Islar: how to sustain yourself in a box?
    Qt Core: what's happening Eos
    Mickorod Renard: yes eliza,,I see the link now
    Eliza Madrigal giggles @ darren
    Eos Amaterasu: (I see you as a plywood box, QT)
    arabella Ella: i cant see Qt ... where are you?
    Qt Core: yes, which exercise I was asking
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Qt Core: to left of Maxime
    arabella Ella: all i can see is your name, no cloud, nothing :(
    Qt Core: i'm the box
    Mickorod Renard: its an illusion, qt is really using an invisability cloak
    Eos Amaterasu: Mick said, "made me wonder how much we may be living in a life of illusion?"
    arabella Ella: no box is visible for me ... maybe i need to improve my eyesight
    Darren Islar: ah :-)
    arabella Ella: oh yes Qt now i see the box in mid air hiding behind your name
    arabella Ella: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: after or while attending a model airplane show
    Eliza Madrigal: how many embedded beliefs does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop?
    Eos Amaterasu: & Eliza noted something similar re bonsai exhibition
    Darren Islar: this mornign I thought it was one of Yaku's boxes
    arabella Ella: what is a tootsi roll pop?
    Eos Amaterasu: see, there's 3 at least (beliefs)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh....
    arabella Ella: something we dont have in europe i guess?
    Eliza Madrigal: (sorry) hehhe. It was a bad play on a classic tv commercial :)
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I was reading a science journal today,,it still appears that cutting edge science still cannot say for certain we exist
    Darren Islar: have no idea either Ara
    arabella Ella: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: that must have the physicists worried
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    arabella Ella: i think someone mentioned it on another occasion and it is possibly a sweet for kids in the USA
    Maxine Walden: better for your teeth that you don't have Tootsie rolls in Europe, Ara
    arabella Ella: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: how about almond cookies?
    Eliza Madrigal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IA5Cv_5-g8
    arabella Ella: yummy Eos ... and all the memories!
    Mickorod Renard: Its all a conspiracy,,to make us eat less sweets and believe what we are being told
    Eos Amaterasu: "I never made it without biting" :-)
    Mickorod Renard: I am a true rebel,,I eat sweets in abandon
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: language itself, the language you speak or read at the moment, has layers of beliefs, implicit meanings
    arabella Ella: he he funny and silly commercial
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm discoverying that through reading a translation in another language of a text I know
    Eliza Madrigal: how interesting Eos, say more?
    Eos Amaterasu: it's like finding further riches that were not quite expressible in the first language
    Qt Core: as usually words in different languages aren't 100% corresponding you notice the differences when reading a translation, noticing whet you lost or what you gained
    Maxine Walden: so interesting, eos, and do you find also that when you think you are thinking/saying something to others or just oneself, that sometimes you take detours as well, saying things you had not really been thinking about? sort of hard to know all of what one is thinking?
    arabella Ella: yes quite a few of Wittgenstein's books are published in both German and English which makes reading them fascinating
    Eliza Madrigal: shows you that something you thought was fixed actually has more room/flexibility I guess ...
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, Maxine, it often seems there's an intention you're following when you say something, which is not "articluated" before you say it, and so the process of trying to say it draw out stuff in there you handn't known before
    Maxine Walden: agree, eos
    Mickorod Renard: yes, i can understand that eos
    Eos Amaterasu: and the model planes were for Mick a phenomenal experience that spoke more than just themselves
    Eos Amaterasu: ?
    Mickorod Renard: hi yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Maxine Walden: so maybe we have the illusion of our thoughts being defined by the words we use, but that really not being the case
    Eos Amaterasu: we use words or art to convey being
    Eos Amaterasu: model being
    Maxine Walden: :))
    Mickorod Renard: it is hard to understand some thoughts without first putting them into words in the head
    Mickorod Renard: this I think must be a down side of words
    Mickorod Renard: as we didnt always have words
    Eos Amaterasu: what did we have?
    arabella Ella: we had sound though didnt we?
    Eos Amaterasu: hmm
    Mickorod Renard: well,i was thinking of just what goes on inside our heads when we think to ourselves
    Maxine Walden: or before a child has verbal language he/she has the experience of the patch of sun on the wall, and then when his mother calls it 'yellow' he/she may have a more diminished experience
    Mickorod Renard: thats the point I was steering towards max
    Maxine Walden: ah...
    arabella Ella: i dont think words diminish anything really
    arabella Ella: they help us to remember our experiences well into the future
    arabella Ella: they create increased memories
    Eos Amaterasu: Aquinas called matter "debile esse" : diminished to-be
    arabella Ella: and they help us to communicate with agreed upon terms
    Darren Islar: but it also fixes things
    Calvino Rabeni: agree, language can add a lot
    Darren Islar: word I mean
    arabella Ella: but language evolves too
    arabella Ella: changes
    Eliza Madrigal: if we don't lose touch with the original alive connection, then words are vibrant...
    Maxine Walden: several diverse views on language and words
    Eos Amaterasu: through words and phrases we interiorize being
    Mickorod Renard: language must add more, but has it also diminished an alternative form of sense?
    Maxine Walden: good question, Mick
    arabella Ella: just try to imagine SL or virtual worlds or PaB without language as we know it
    Darren Islar: I think so Mick
    Mickorod Renard: yes,words are good for communication
    Mickorod Renard: as too are pictures
    Darren Islar: I think you are right Ara, and that is the good side of speaking a language
    Eliza Madrigal nods... words paint pictures... which seem somehow a step closer to sensation, feeling .... metaphor
    Eos Amaterasu: the word or the art-work is both itself and suggesting more than itself
    Darren Islar: but it is weird that when you speak more then one, you can also find diferences in how words feel and even in meaning
    Darren Islar: sometimes an english word fits better then a Dutch one or the other way around
    arabella Ella nods
    Darren Islar: even the sound of a language makes me feel different
    Eliza Madrigal found herself pondering the word 'verse' in universe today... a word I see several times a day but hadn't played with opening
    Maxine Walden: and then there is the sentiment behind the spoken word...different sentiments to the same word may make a difference
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Darren Islar: English gives me another feeling then speaking Dutch
    arabella Ella: ever here Darren, those who came to the retreat noticed how much (and how naturally) we code switch between languages here
    Darren Islar: yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i have the same feeling darren
    Eliza Madrigal: textures? or change of view?
    arabella Ella: amongst ourselves we pick and choose whichever word is most appropriate from two or more languages
    Darren Islar: yes I can imagine that Ara
    Darren Islar: I thnk both Eliz
    Darren Islar: Eiza
    arabella Ella: the three languages generally being Maltese, English and Italian
    Darren Islar: Eliza!!!!1
    Qt Core: after the more intense session i feel a language uncertainity in rl, using english syntax in italian (and that's ugly)
    Mickorod Renard: can we think of any other forms of civilisation/ community in the animal world where words do not feature much?
    Eliza Madrigal giggles @ Darren... any or all variations are fine
    Eos Amaterasu: songs of the humpback whale and of dolphins?
    Maxine Walden: (upcoming 90 sec: what to focus on in the pause?)
    Darren Islar: (how many times can you write a name as Eliza wrong :-)))
    arabella Ella: bats use sonar ... an example for Eos perhaps?
    Eos Amaterasu: Being speaking through word
    Maxine Walden: the many ways Being speaks to us, maybe I will ponder that
    Darren Islar: the strangest thing is that generally spoken the English language feels more close to me then the Dutch
    Mickorod Renard: ants outnumber humans and have proberbly been in existance longer,,they live in a society and presumably dont use words
    Yakuzza Lethecus: english for me also covers totally different content from what i use in everyday life in german
    Darren Islar: they use sent
    arabella Ella: ??
    Qt Core: chemical signals
    Eos Amaterasu: scent... formic acid...
    Mickorod Renard: chanel?
    arabella Ella: oh ... scent
    Eos Amaterasu: #9
    Darren Islar: sorry, you're right QT
    Mickorod Renard: we do too
    Eos Amaterasu: smell that changes your inner being systems, hormones
    Darren Islar: (that doesn't mean my english is perfect :-))))
    Eos Amaterasu: twirls your knobs
    arabella Ella: no worries Darren your English is excellent
    Darren Islar: thanks Ara
    Maxine Walden: many languages it seems and during the 90 sec just now I 'heard' the birds of SL, and thought of the RL natural sounds, language of vastness,the breathing of the trees, etc. Different ways Being 'speaks'
    Qt Core: every time i read pab (especially if not in its acronym i can't avoid thinking about the difference about play and its italian translation, they are so different (the english being much richer)
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, being speaking through cathedrals of empty phenomenality
    Darren Islar: hi Joe
    Maxine Walden: hi, Joe
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen and Joe
    arabella Ella: this is even more interesting as many of us here can easily compare different languages
    Mickorod Renard: but what i wonder is,,has using words took us on an evolutionary path that is quite diferent from an alternative path
    Eos Amaterasu: what is Play as Being in Italian?
    Eliza Madrigal thought of opera and various contexts in which someone in a language not understood, evokes Being... tone, expression ... longing to longing
    Darren Islar: hi Zen
    Qt Core: something like giocando ad essere
    Darren Islar is still not having any idea of being and is dropping the remarks about it
    arabella Ella: ah ... with connotations for La Gioconda Qt ... the italian name for the Mona Lisa :)
    Qt Core: but the difference is that giocare, the verb means only to play a game, not an instrument, or an act
    Qt Core: that is an old form, more like the happy girl ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: thats a goood question darren
    Eos Amaterasu: joke giocare?
    arabella Ella: a joke is un scherzo
    Mickorod Renard: well,,not so much a question but a statement
    Qt Core: same source, but no, not the same meaning
    Eos Amaterasu: "all play the game of existence till the end, of the beginning" - Beatles
    Darren Islar: yes, because I dropped the question several times
    Mickorod Renard: maybe being is what u are left with when u have dropped everything
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: hey Joe, don't be afraid
    Qt Core: sometimes i find that the best translation could be "far finta di essere" more like "fake to be"
    Darren Islar: wb Cal
    arabella Ella: wb Calvino
    Eos Amaterasu: essay as essere
    Darren Islar: well, my problem is that you can have a lot of thoughts about 'bing' but I feel it isn;t growing on me
    Calvino Rabeni: thx ara - random crash
    Eos Amaterasu: essayez essere
    arabella Ella: how would you say it in French Eos?
    Eos Amaterasu: multi-lingual PaB
    Eos Amaterasu: jouez a la ...
    Mickorod Renard: darren,i can admit to you that I too have great difficulties there
    arabella Ella: so French seems to be similar to Italian there
    Darren Islar: I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one :-)
    Qt Core: different languages as different filtered lenses to observe thought ?
    Eos Amaterasu: jouez a la existence (doesn't quite do it - Eden would know)
    Mickorod Renard: but then i have ather reasons for a blockage in that region
    Mickorod Renard: other*
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal sees it as seeing through embedded patterns... like I can see that my typist 'S' is playing as Eliza... but can I see that 'S' is a play, too?
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: from earliest days S learned to play as S
    Eliza Madrigal: and if I can see that, who is it that is seeing that? etc. hah
    Darren Islar: I know what you mean Eliza, but I wonder if that is 'being'
    Mickorod Renard: I still believe in God..so for me exploring being is just an extension of my exploring everything
    Eos Amaterasu: that way of seeing could be a way to being seeing
    Darren Islar: I understand Mick
    Mickorod Renard: ty
    Darren Islar: 'could be'
    arabella Ella: isn't 'Being' our very existence?
    Eliza Madrigal: its just one way of viewing views I guess...
    Maxine Walden: another pause coming up.
    Zen Arado: I prefer the term 'awareness'
    Eliza Madrigal: realizing that we are mired in patterns we don't realize and that seeing through them might make way for Being to shine
    Eos Amaterasu: notice your viewing
    Darren Islar: I know becoming aware, patterns, dualism, things that seems to paradoxal but aren't, but what is you seeing and what is being seeing
    Mickorod Renard: I think the main thing is not to be obstructive in ones explorations, but be open to discoveries
    Darren Islar: leavin it wide open can be a obstruction in itself
    Eliza Madrigal nods re discoveries
    Maxine Walden: Afraid I have to go. Been a good discussion
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Maxine :)
    Mickorod Renard: but it is an exploration,,or even an experiment if u wish
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now
    Zen Arado: bye Maxine
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye maxine
    Maxine Walden: see you all again soon, I hope
    Darren Islar: bye Maxine
    Mickorod Renard: bye max
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Darren Islar: bye Eos
    Mickorod Renard: bye eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Also leaving, thanks all!
    Eliza Madrigal: the play is the thing... :)
    Zen Arado: bye Eos
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eos :)
    Eos Amaterasu: been ufn
    Darren Islar: bye Yaku
    Eos Amaterasu: *fun
    arabella Ella: bye to those leaving
    Qt Core: bye Eos
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,nice 2 c u
    Darren Islar: our mind, or at least mind, is not used to leaving things open
    Darren Islar: it needs to learn that
    Darren Islar: but how?
    Eliza Madrigal: Eden used a beautiful metaphor.... of a bird flapping its wings
    Zen Arado: questioning assumptions is a start
    Zen Arado: I started that in phiosophy
    Eliza Madrigal: holding things open, Zen?
    Darren Islar: I know, you know, something is growing on me
    Darren Islar: but is it being
    Darren Islar: actually I don't think so
    Zen Arado: yes..so many things we take for granted
    Darren Islar: I think most of it is you seeing
    Darren Islar: becoming aware of the reality as it presents itself to us
    Darren Islar: questioning that
    Zen Arado: or our view of it
    Darren Islar: to me that sounds like you seeing
    Darren Islar: yes
    Zen Arado: outr concept of it
    Zen Arado: yes just a different way of putting it
    Mickorod Renard: perceptions
    Eliza Madrigal: Well this is why its an exploration perhaps and not a belief
    Zen Arado: I see the same ideas crop up in so many spiritual teachers
    Darren Islar: all you seeing to me
    Zen Arado: and even in ancient philosophers
    Zen Arado: ways of exploring reality
    Darren Islar: relative reality
    Zen Arado: who am i? what is reality?
    Zen Arado: wb Cal
    Darren Islar: you know you seeing and being seeing suggest differen 'levels'
    Darren Islar: I see different levels in buddhism
    Calvino Rabeni: Crash caused by a lightning storm, actually
    Darren Islar: don't understand them all
    Darren Islar: but I do understand what I am working at
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I think at some stage there is a sense of deflation,,that the exploration moves at a regular pace
    Zen Arado: so..wait and see?
    Darren Islar: I don't 'feel' that with you seeing and being seeing
    arabella Ella: wb Calvino
    Darren Islar: wb Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: Some things we turn over for months and months and then suddenly they are open
    Darren Islar: I don't think waiting is doing the 'trick'
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni hears thunder in the distance
    Eliza Madrigal: like koans
    Zen Arado: yes
    Mickorod Renard: making space in your life is a stepping stone to becoming more aware
    Eliza Madrigal: then they are open, and they always were... because we are
    Zen Arado: yes
    Darren Islar: I know
    Eliza Madrigal: and always were. Strange logic I know :))
    Zen Arado: we close ourselves off
    Zen Arado: for ego protection perhaps
    arabella Ella hates thunder ... scarey stuff
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Mick re space... making room for not understanding/not knowing perhaps?
    Eliza Madrigal: not taking 'nothing' for granted anymore
    Zen Arado: investigating everything
    Zen Arado: investigate emotions
    Qt Core: time to go, bye all
    Zen Arado: bye Qt
    Zen Arado: good section in 'Book of not knowing
    Mickorod Renard: bye everyone goin
    Zen Arado: man yells at wife...why?
    Darren Islar: bye Mick
    Zen Arado: he is angry..Why?
    Mickorod Renard: I am still here,,but may go soon
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: she said something that hurt
    arabella Ella: why Zen?
    Zen Arado: etc
    arabella Ella: why?
    Zen Arado: why did it hurt?
    Zen Arado: maybe his wife doesn't love him...he thinks
    Zen Arado: whay does that worry him?
    Zen Arado: if no one loves you you are worthless belief
    arabella Ella: but her saying the wrong thing and him being angry does not imply there is no love
    arabella Ella: oooops
    Darren Islar has still no answer about the difference between you seeing an being seeing and will 'drop' the 'issue'
    Zen Arado: just an example of alowing ourselves to examine underlying beliefs
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interpretations... what we 'add on' to what is actually there...
    Zen Arado: more than that Eliza
    Darren Islar: whispers: I know
    arabella Ella: noooo please dont drop it Darren ... I dont blame you for feeling like that but you were not here when Pema used to speak about it here
    Zen Arado: uncovering assumptions
    Zen Arado: until you get to a 'core belief'
    Zen Arado: no keep going Daren
    Darren Islar can't help himself
    Zen Arado: sorry for rabbiting on
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, Okay... presuppositions
    arabella Ella: well for me Being is like some sort of mindfulness
    Eliza Madrigal: Not at all Darren :) This is how we all learn
    Darren Islar: but what is making us sure we are going into the right direction
    Mickorod Renard: maybe wife is feeelin undervalued and wants to bring husband down for company?
    Darren Islar: "sure"
    Zen Arado: I'm not
    arabella Ella: and there is internal mindfulness and external mindfulness ... external being us transposing ourselves elsewhere and looking at ourselves somehow ... in simple terms
    Zen Arado: yes Mick but have to keep to your own emotions
    Darren Islar: we can well develop strenght and become the opposite of what we would like to be
    Mickorod Renard: ohh ok
    arabella Ella: Pema always told us we could do BS or the other exervcises in our own individual way
    Zen Arado: but what we are truly is more important?
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Ara
    Mickorod Renard: well,,one thing 4 sure,,best not to react in the usual emotional way
    Eliza Madrigal: so personal... the very idea is 'direct' experience
    Darren Islar: that is where I have doubts Ara
    Mickorod Renard: just slap her
    Zen Arado: yes...experiencing for ourselves
    Zen Arado: :)
    arabella Ella: where do you mean you have doubts Darren?
    Zen Arado: understanding why we react the way we do
    Darren Islar: Pema always told us we could do BS or the other exervcises in our own individual way
    arabella Ella: yes ... meaning different people may find their own way to do it ... same as meditation too
    arabella Ella: differennt paths
    Eliza Madrigal: it didn't click for me until doing a sustained exercize... the 'idea' didn't make sense
    Darren Islar: meditation is bonded to boundaries
    Eliza Madrigal: and I'm sure there is lots of room there still
    arabella Ella: but meditation involves different paths
    Eliza Madrigal: for exploration
    Zen Arado: I think Pema just offers a practice to try?
    Darren Islar: there are certain things you can do in a meditation and certain things you can't
    Darren Islar: I think Liza will elaborate on that tomorrow :-))
    arabella Ella nods ... also in BS
    Zen Arado: I think it is useful for bringing meditation into our daily life more
    Darren Islar: so what are the rules?
    Eliza Madrigal: The discussions on the theme page are quite helpful... but maybe better to just start at the beginning/end and ask 'anew'
    arabella Ella: ah ... where is Pema ... come help us out please Pema!!!!
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh.... what time is it in Japan?
    arabella Ella: he he
    Darren Islar: but maybe that is it Ara
    Darren Islar: I don't see anyone who can guide us through this
    Eliza Madrigal: beyond rules/beyond beliefs...
    Darren Islar: nobody told me what to do and especially what not to do
    Darren Islar: sure Eliza, but that is where you start
    arabella Ella: well let's put on record ... Pema please come back and give us some more theme sessions on Being (hopefully he will read the chat log)
    Darren Islar: my mind can't think yet beyond rules
    Mickorod Renard: I recall at some long lost time ,,many months ago,,Pema did some phenemology stuff,,like meditation,,and it did lean towards being
    Zen Arado: I don't like rules
    Eliza Madrigal: so when you get to the end of yourself, your words.... what kicks in?
    arabella Ella: i know this may sound silly but somewhere i think Pema said it is a bit like a 'jump start' ... to get us all to be more mindful in our daily lives (if i got it right)
    Darren Islar: I have been to one of those session, when I first came here
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Ara
    Darren Islar: but don't really find answers there
    Mickorod Renard: I think it was before that Darren
    arabella Ella: those were the last sessions Darren which had built upon previous ones where we were all very confused ... initially i mean
    Eliza Madrigal: drop what you have to see what you are, is basically the same thing
    Darren Islar: then why are we talking about being and not about the reality as we perceive it
    Mickorod Renard: when was it Ara,,when we forst did phenem here with pema?
    arabella Ella: about two years ago Mick
    arabella Ella: around April 2008
    Mickorod Renard: lol
    arabella Ella: that was soon after PaB started
    Darren Islar: I like to keep it close to home
    Eliza Madrigal: its a great idea to begin at the beginning again... sounds like fun
    Darren Islar: thinking about my own patterns, my one 'beliefs', feeling where I can get hurt and whatit means to me
    Mickorod Renard: but it may be worth reading those logs,,it may give inspiration for meditation
    Darren Islar: but what on earth is 'being'
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure, Mick... and the recent phenom workshop discussions too
    Zen Arado: I see trues self, being, awareness as just different terms for the same thing -am I wrong?
    Darren Islar: I don;t know Zen, I think that is my question
    Eliza Madrigal: "seeing can't be taught"
    Eliza Madrigal: ;-)
    arabella Ella: oh nooooo mosquitoes attacking me ... how can i 'drop' that?
    arabella Ella: helppppppp
    Darren Islar: right Eliza, but somebody needs to tell me if I am on the right road
    Calvino Rabeni: About "being" - I was listening to some of the tapes audiodharma, that Paradise likes
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
    Darren Islar: draft might help Ara
    arabella Ella: it is too warm here already Darren
    Eliza Madrigal: which site Calvino?
    arabella Ella: that's why we already have mosquitoes
    Calvino Rabeni: What caught my ear was, early buddhism didn' t so much look at human nature or being, as at human capacities - it puts a different spin on ht
    Darren Islar: a fan maybe :-)
    Darren Islar: I mean :?
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I think,,in my opinion,,,is that as we dont really know anything for sure,,being is what ever is that our conciousness is in connection with that links all things
    Darren Islar: well, in my head I have all these things that can say something about being
    Calvino Rabeni: could it be, the wanting of staticness and answers came more recently?
    Darren Islar: but I don't know about my experiences
    Zen Arado: to me awareness has to be discovered by ....contemplation or meditation...alowing other things to drop away
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Mick.... connection...about uncovering Life that is there all the time
    Darren Islar: but do you feel it all the time Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: and then seeing that everything we dropped was none other than that too
    Darren Islar: do you really know that it is there
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm... actually I think feeling is part of what has to be seen through
    Zen Arado: yes
    Darren Islar: or is Darren a guy from PaB
    Eliza Madrigal: that whether the clouds block the sun or not, the sun is there
    Darren Islar: true Eliza
    Zen Arado: feelings make us suffer so much
    Darren Islar: so what is it then?
    Darren Islar: I can sometimes feel connection with someone
    Calvino Rabeni: The process view versus the "thing-with-state" view
    Darren Islar: but when I leave here, I leave Mick, Ara, Zen you and Cal behind
    arabella Ella: if one of you could help with this ... there were also the sessions we had with Stim ... where for example if someone was being a bit of a pain we could try to drop that and to try to see things from the perspective of the other person ... thereby annihilating the whole bad feeling
    Mickorod Renard: from a phenemology point of view,,we are nothing arnt we?
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, Darren, I still think of U when neither is logged into SL :)
    Eliza Madrigal: sun shining through the cracks.... in our words, in our jokes... in our sadnesses and confusions
    arabella Ella: i still think of you too Darren :)
    Darren Islar: right Ara, but to me that is close by like you seeing
    Darren Islar: experimenting a bit with another perspective
    Zen Arado: we can do Tonglen for each other
    arabella Ella: the other perspective is Being Seing
    Darren Islar: helps too Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: well, even on a basic level, communications is enhancing our capacities toward appreciation and connection
    Darren Islar: all true :-)))
    Mickorod Renard: as we are nothing,,mostly,,we are all connected by nothing
    Darren Islar: sorry, can't put my finger on it
    Zen Arado: we separate ourselves
    Calvino Rabeni: Then to play the same in the other direction - could I be closer to you, Darren, or Ara, then "right now"?
    Darren Islar: nice Mick, but what does it mean
    arabella Ella: it involved both 'dropping' and 'appreciating'
    arabella Ella: dropping bad feelings
    Darren Islar: but what is it we drop?
    Darren Islar: oh so many questions
    arabella Ella: dropping attachments
    arabella Ella: dropping everything superflous
    Mickorod Renard: it means,,something wierd is going on,,and I want to know what it is
    Darren Islar: what is attachment and what is experience
    Zen Arado: we need patience too
    Darren Islar: I know Zen, even that is not myproblem
    Zen Arado: with ourselves and others
    Calvino Rabeni: There's the zen story of the full teacup - it had to be emptied, to be able to be filled with something fresh
    arabella Ella: an easy example of attachment is our attachment to material things ... most of which we don't really need ... we need not even desire them
    Zen Arado: yep
    Eliza Madrigal: wineskins :)
    Mickorod Renard: Cal,,is that a Zen story?
    Mickorod Renard: its special to me
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: me too
    arabella Ella: lovely
    Darren Islar: true Ara, but that is easy, now about the real attachements, the one we feel to life
    Zen Arado: there's a good artic;le on it
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen would know the background of that story I think
    Darren Islar: our problems with musqitoes
    Mickorod Renard: isnt it the fragile vessel storry too?
    Darren Islar: we like to kill them for herassing us
    arabella Ella: yes Darren we feel attachments in RL, to other people for example, but nothing is permanent
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Ara
    arabella Ella: ah ... mosquitoes and cockroaches ... although I tend to like spiders myself :)
    Calvino Rabeni: How many people, have an attachment to not feeling, which is known as an "aversion"
    Eliza Madrigal: that seems part of it.... individual beings may come and go from our lives
    Darren Islar: again, sounds really nice
    Mickorod Renard: Cal, if u find the link to the story I wud love a copy
    Darren Islar: sorry
    Eliza Madrigal: Also a link to the audio you mentioned if you would, Cal :)
    arabella Ella: like those who have kids and who have extra strong attachments to their kids ... which result in suffering ... which could be overcome, dropped
    Darren Islar: how?
    Darren Islar: how do we drop kids, life itself, ourselves
    Mickorod Renard: I would like an illustrated copy , pref erably in gold gilt edging
    Darren Islar: never mind, we are going in circles
    Darren Islar: but thanks for thinking with me
    arabella Ella: but not being over protective, by giving space to others, by appreciating the fact that others have different perspectives, by appreciating that others may be 'cruel' to us for other reasons than those we may consider
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, like this morning my daughter said something mean to me... and I immediately started attaching to it pity for myself "Oh, mother's day, oh, all the money I spent on parties yesterday'... then realized how silly... that it wasn't personal at all
    Eliza Madrigal: she was sad about something
    arabella Ella nods
    arabella Ella: exactly
    Eliza Madrigal: I had to see through my own 'stuff'
    Mickorod Renard: yes, this is important
    Eliza Madrigal: and connect with *her*
    arabella Ella: we have so much baggage which we dont really need at all
    arabella Ella: by the way Storm and Stim are both very good at explaining all this
    Calvino Rabeni: @eliza, I think it is the "Energy" talk on the following list http://www.audiodharma.org/talks-sevenfactorsofawakening.html
    Mickorod Renard: we can learn to see the bigger picture,,in this we can be more compasionate
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Cal :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods, yes compassion is always available... even when we don't 'feel' it
    Eliza Madrigal: nice to remind one another :)
    arabella Ella: yes and compassion is something we definitely need to cultivate
    arabella Ella: and all this helps us to overcome suffering i guess
    Zen Arado: and help others to as well
    Zen Arado: hopefully
    Calvino Rabeni: One open secret is - suffering is mostly, an add-on that is an aversion to suffering, which inflates it tremendously
    Darren Islar: :-)
    arabella Ella nods
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, hm, back to perspective and proportion
    arabella Ella: to me it sounds similar to 'mind over matter' somehow
    arabella Ella: by developing mindfulness and compassion
    arabella Ella: and dropping excessive attachments
    Darren Islar: all true, I admit :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Dropping is half the story - perhaps that is one lesson of those audiodharma talks - there's a piece about desire and being "fervent" about taking life lustfully :)
    Darren Islar: and belief me, I don't question that
    arabella Ella: could you spell that our Calvino please?
    Darren Islar: you know Shamatha Vispasyana has nine steps
    Darren Islar: the first step is awareness
    Darren Islar: eight to go
    Mickorod Renard: somewhere i found that by being nothing was a very special thing,,making life so special,,and me inluded in that,,so realy I was more
    Darren Islar: (sorry)
    Zen Arado: Two Zen monks were walking through the woods. Suddenly, one Zen monk turned to the other and slapped him. Ouch! Why did you do that! cried the slapped monk. The first said I am a Zen monk, I can get away with shit like that. It is so very simple. And the ego loves to complicate it. Really, there [...]
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Darren Islar: true Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Impulses, desires, wishes, the pleasure impulse, etc, become truer to the path, more trustable, with practice
    Calvino Rabeni: So - lots to look forward to, eh? :)
    arabella Ella giggles at Zen's anecdote
    Zen Arado: I better go :)
    Eliza Madrigal: desire as path seems okay to me
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    arabella Ella: bye Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen :))
    Darren Islar: bye Zen
    Zen Arado: bye all
    Mickorod Renard: bye Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Funny, those zen dudes are always slapping :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    Calvino Rabeni: Mind yourself Zen:
    Zen Arado: :)
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care :)))))
    arabella Ella: i suppose the question arises ... can we drop all desire ... but that will have to wait as i must go now
    Eliza Madrigal: the zen dudes wake us up
    arabella Ella: nite everyone and thanks for the chat :)
    Mickorod Renard: Cal,,if you could direct me to the tale of the replenished water?
    Darren Islar: :-) bye Ara
    Eliza Madrigal: Nite Ara, thanks to you too
    Calvino Rabeni: Just drop the black seeds, Ara
    Mickorod Renard: some day
    arabella Ella: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, be well <3
    Mickorod Renard: nite Ara
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh,... something about meditation: If a newcomer does have questions or concerns, I encourage them to try it first and ask questions after. Someone sitting for the first time can learn more about meditation in thirty real-time minutes than any experienced meditator can explain to them in that same amount of time. Because meditation isn’t about following directions down a mental highway: it’s an off-road adventure. - Barry Evans, "Less is More
    Calvino Rabeni: @mick, I'll google a bit
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    Mickorod Renard: I have tried to find it in the past
    Mickorod Renard: maybe another version I dont know
    Darren Islar: there are rules to meditation meant to make sure you be aware and open
    Calvino Rabeni: Google smiles upon us with "I'm Feeling Lucky"
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.101zenstories.com/index.php?story=1
    Darren Islar: it sounds like a contrast, but it isn't
    Darren Islar: I guess I am looking for those kind of rules
    Mickorod Renard: thanks cal,,ur a gem
    Darren Islar: rules that doesn't difined the road, but is keeping you on the road
    Calvino Rabeni: All the credit goes to Google, Mick (he said modestly)
    Mickorod Renard: ok, I must go to bed
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Mick
    Darren Islar: nite Mick
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I see Darren... like vows that are liberating
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, dream well :)
    Darren Islar: yes, like vows
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou so much, i will check it out and tell u a lil story bout it one day
    Mickorod Renard: bye all
    Darren Islar: ....that are liberating
    Darren Islar: instead of confining something
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes if I feel I'm not relating to something but it has me interested... I'll try to dig even deeper... like hm... asking what's beneath that? can I touch that/see that?
    Calvino Rabeni: It's always situational
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the zen story - cross the river, then drop the boat
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Darren Islar: well I don't know about that Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Although, there are certain "vows" worth holding a long time
    Darren Islar: the context of course makes you interprate a certain rule
    Darren Islar: but like using your breathing as a meditation-object
    Calvino Rabeni: And the interpretation ask you to ask yourself about yourself :)
    Darren Islar: to make 'sure' you are not getting distracted
    Darren Islar: I can think of rules of how we can approach being
    Calvino Rabeni: Another way to think of it is - people have diifferent characters, different states of development, need different "help" at different times
    Calvino Rabeni: "One size fits all" rules are not workable
    Darren Islar: an eventhen, maybe the breathing IS the distraction
    Darren Islar: I know Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: I know you know :)
    Eliza Madrigal: sustaining attention... holding open space until acclimated.... then dropping that
    Darren Islar: but the rules I am talking about is helping you asking questions
    Darren Islar: helping, not getting in the way of it
    Calvino Rabeni: Once I had a teach who gave me a simple, difficult assignment
    Calvino Rabeni: "Every day, do something that is uncharacteristic of yourself"
    Eliza Madrigal: "Don't be predictable"
    Eliza Madrigal: (lojong)
    Darren Islar: I have telling that for years to people in the AA
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght maybe also "consistent"
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a hard assignment
    Darren Islar: yes, it is consistant and at the same time it doesn't define what it does with you
    Darren Islar: but it helps you to get another perspective
    Darren Islar: it is a great tool
    Darren Islar: but I have tools for becoming aware
    Darren Islar: and at the same time the more I get aware, the more questions I get
    Darren Islar: needing tools to appraoch that
    Eliza Madrigal: well at least more fun/precise the questions get
    Darren Islar: I didn't mean to make this night so complicated :-)))
    Calvino Rabeni: It's Live, Darren :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, glad you did Darren :) That's why I'm here this long :))
    Calvino Rabeni: *Life
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes its also fun to pretend we don't know something we think we do.... then see what we thought we knew, anew
    Darren Islar: and it is probably why I have a headache now, to much thinking for me :-))
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a service for others, if you like
    Eliza Madrigal is sounding like Dr Seuss
    Eliza Madrigal: Or Pema, take your pick
    Eliza Madrigal: ahahhahah
    Eliza Madrigal giggles and leaves it to Maxine whether to leave that or not ;-) he'll hear the spirit intended
    Darren Islar: Dr Seuss?
    Calvino Rabeni: Child book rhymer in English
    Darren Islar: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: WIth varous moral tales for children
    Darren Islar: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: What I mostly remember is the illustrations
    Calvino Rabeni: DO you recall that Eliza, the child's mind stimulated by the pictures in the Seuss books?
    Eliza Madrigal: "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened.” Dr. Seuss quote
    Eliza Madrigal: child's mind?
    Darren Islar: wow
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm a huge Seuss fan...
    Calvino Rabeni: Literally, one's mind as a child, reading those books
    Darren Islar: we had this program for children when I was still little
    Calvino Rabeni: a different mind than now
    Darren Islar: it was a lot of fun with animal dolls
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh yes Calvino. I wondered if you were talking about a specific illustration
    Darren Islar: but I didn't understand the stories very well
    Calvino Rabeni: Each of the pictures set off an explosion of fantasies and scenarios
    Darren Islar: even remember the song
    Darren Islar: but later on I found out that is was more fun for adults :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: there are some writers for children that adults would do well to read :)
    Eliza Madrigal: snap
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: What was that one - (searching fuzzy memory bank)
    Eliza Madrigal: My favorite Seuss may be "The Lorax" which is an activist book really....
    Eliza Madrigal: "I am the Lorax I speak for the trees"
    Calvino Rabeni: They are social and political parables
    Eliza Madrigal: talking about everyone 'biggering and biggering..." If we'd all read that book, the meltdown might now have happened :)
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: *not=now
    Calvino Rabeni: Letting things run out of control - being selfish, having insight, bragging, the works!
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed
    Calvino Rabeni: Seeing around the world
    Darren Islar is smiling over all those memories
    Calvino Rabeni: (Who has the best eyesight)
    Eliza Madrigal: “I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, It's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, And that enables you to laugh at life's realities.” Dr. Seuss
    Darren Islar: you remember that from your head?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not to leave the children's world, but science has also shown nonsense sharpens thinking
    Calvino Rabeni: It's been demonstrated, in other words
    Darren Islar: or googling it
    Eliza Madrigal shakes head 'no' darren... there are some that I do but this quote is new to me
    Eliza Madrigal: I did google that :)
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Calvino, Science in what way?
    Calvino Rabeni: Some psychology experiment, showed some thinking test worked better after subjects were shown some random/chaotic information
    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, can't get the details. The idea was, an amount of chaos helps the mind work better
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah... okay... I think I did see that on the arts&letters daily site months ago
    Darren Islar: can you find me a dr Seuss picture Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: OK
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.google.com/images?q=dr.+seuss+illustration
    Eliza Madrigal: there are youtube videos also... the books drawn out and narrated
    Darren Islar: thansk Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, actually the videos are awful
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to wander to see Storm's prayer wheels... read that he installed chanting...
    Calvino Rabeni: As a young child, I remember being excited by a book about a boy who had a crayon that would actually create his reality
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.google.com/images?q="harold+and+the+purple+crayon"
    Calvino Rabeni: Virtual reality, years ago
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Eliza
    Darren Islar: bye Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh.... want to click that... one sec
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a childhood classic like the Seuss books
    Darren Islar: I know that little guy
    Calvino Rabeni: Great little dude
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah! I remember those
    Calvino Rabeni: And, of course, "Curious George" the monkey
    Calvino Rabeni: that's the big three of child classics
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... thanks guys. Bye for now :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now :)
    Darren Islar: thansk Eliza, bye :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm off, take care Darren
    Darren Islar: nite Cal, see you
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
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