2010.05.10 13:00 - Oops

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.

    Qt Core: Hi Arabella
    --BELL--
    arabella Ella: ciao Qt
    arabella Ella: come stai?
    arabella Ella: sorry was afk
    Qt Core: np, bene, tu ?
    arabella Ella: ok molto bene grazzie!
    arabella Ella: oh one 'z'
    arabella Ella: in my language two 'z'
    Qt Core: in some dialect none, one or two 's' ;-)
    arabella Ella: oh
    arabella Ella: in my language grazzi
    arabella Ella: pronounced: gratsi
    Qt Core: with no ending e ?
    arabella Ella: no 'e' at the end just 'i'
    arabella Ella: maybe we are lazy with language and take short cuts
    arabella Ella: let me test you with something
    arabella Ella: do you know what suffarini are?
    Qt Core: :-) a nice language for sms then ;-)
    arabella Ella: yes
    Qt Core: no
    arabella Ella: (sicilian solfarini)
    arabella Ella: no idea?
    arabella Ella: Hiya Strannik
    Qt Core: no
    arabella Ella: ok
    Strannik Zipper: Greetings
    arabella Ella: matchsticks
    Qt Core: hi Strannik
    arabella Ella: again another corrupted word from sicilian
    Qt Core: ohhh. zolfanelli in my dialect
    arabella Ella: really?
    arabella Ella: ah
    arabella Ella: interesting
    Qt Core: hi Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Ara, QT and Mr Zipper
    arabella Ella: Hiya Agatha ... buona sera!
    Strannik Zipper: Greetings
    Qt Core: fiammifero in regular italian, ara
    arabella Ella: yes that i know
    Qt Core: hi Mick
    Agatha Macbeth: Fiammifero then :)
    arabella Ella: now does Stadio Flamminio have a meaning (in Rome)?
    Agatha Macbeth: And hello Mick :)
    Agatha Macbeth: And SSL :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya,,can anyone just fill in a few mins for me ,,feedin baby
    arabella Ella: Hiya Mick and SSL
    Qt Core: hi ssl
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone :))
    Agatha Macbeth: Make with that bottle Mick :)
    arabella Ella: should i say poor baby or poor mick?
    Agatha Macbeth: (Poor baby probably ;-)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Aw
    arabella Ella: (thought so)
    arabella Ella: so how is everyone tonight (if it is tonight for you)?
    Wol Euler: evening all.
    arabella Ella: Hiya Wol
    Agatha Macbeth: Evenin' Wol :))
    Qt Core: hi wol
    arabella Ella: sounds like everyone is doing just fine :)
    Mickorod Renard: hi ,,,sorry bout this,,can still read but dificult to type
    arabella Ella: you still have to claim the session Mick
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,done that
    arabella Ella: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Did you or the baby claim the session Mick?
    Wol Euler grins
    Agatha Macbeth: Goo goo PaB :p
    Qt Core: mick the session, the baby mick
    arabella Ella: good training for baby mick learning all about PaB
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Agatha Macbeth: Being gurgling
    Wol Euler: Appreciate the Presence of StinkyDiapers as a Presentation by Being
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    arabella Ella: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: At arm's length...
    arabella Ella: RL calling brb
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: baby nodded off feeding
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww :)
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Strannik Zipper: So what it is?
    Wol Euler: dinnertime?
    Agatha Macbeth: A pronoun?
    Strannik Zipper: dinnertime being relative - I just had lunch
    Wol Euler: that's a betteranswer than mine
    Agatha Macbeth grins like a dork
    Wol Euler: :)
    Strannik Zipper: what is implied by a personal pronoun?
    Agatha Macbeth: In this case 'it'
    Agatha Macbeth: (=neuter)
    Strannik Zipper: it is impersonal - I'm moving on ;-)
    Wol Euler: that the subject of discussion *is* a person rather than a thing (if I remember rightly)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, but not in the case of 'it' dear
    Wol Euler: but is "it" personal?
    Strannik Zipper: Only in special cases, I think
    Wol Euler reaches for the dictionary, as she should have done before mouthing off.
    Strannik Zipper: I refer to my cat as it or shee
    Strannik Zipper: er she
    Qt Core: Hi Liza
    Agatha Macbeth: At least 'maiden' isn't neuter in English as it is in German, always found that funny...
    Liza Deischer: hi everyone
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Liza :)
    Strannik Zipper: greetings
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Liza
    Qt Core: one of the few tine i'm grateful we don't have neuter ;-)
    Wol Euler: right, a personal pronoun is one that is applied to a person-in-the-sense-of-spoken-grammar
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes. But your tables are feminine :)
    Strannik Zipper: "neuter maiden" could be a band
    SophiaSharon Larnia: neuter as in asexual
    Agatha Macbeth: I'm speaking of grammatical gender here of course
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so was I :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Which is mostly illogical anyway
    Wol Euler: it's interesting and useful in German that babies and small children are neutral, only when they reach puberty do they become gendered
    Agatha Macbeth smiles @ Shaz
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Qt Core: interesting!
    Wol Euler: saves all that "is it a boy or a girl" carp
    Strannik Zipper: what do personal pronouns do to our identities?
    Wol Euler: *crap, even
    SophiaSharon Larnia: likes carp better
    Agatha Macbeth: Isn't everything ending in -chen neuter tho Wol?
    Wol Euler: yes but
    Wol Euler: that's slang, really.
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah
    Wol Euler: a ... hmm, what to say?
    Mickorod Renard: now just gotta do the winding
    Agatha Macbeth: I think in Dutch the same thing goes for -tje, yes?
    Agatha Macbeth: Same function?
    Liza Deischer: sorry?
    Agatha Macbeth: Diminutive ending: -tje?
    Wol Euler: the German word for it is Verniedlichung, making the thing small and soft and sweet and charmingly harmless
    Agatha Macbeth: Or did I get that wrong (again)
    Liza Deischer: yes -tje is not male of female, but works quite differently then in the German language
    Agatha Macbeth: AOh right
    Agatha Macbeth: -A
    Liza Deischer: but-tje makes things small an soft an sweet and harmless
    Agatha Macbeth: Like me then?
    Wol Euler grins
    Liza Deischer: but an american friend of mine said we do it with everything
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Liza Deischer: making everything small
    Wol Euler: especially in Swabian
    Strannik Zipper: Does the various cultural forms of personal pronouns create an image of an identity?
    Liza Deischer: everything like a litle bit
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh, Swabian...
    Wol Euler: bergchen, häuschen, waldchen ...
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
    Liza Deischer: to Wol
    Strannik Zipper: (ignore the horrible grammar in that question:-))
    Wol Euler: yes, strannik, I think it might well. Or at least cause some inner confusion.
    Agatha Macbeth: Persian doesn't distinguish between gender in the third person
    Wol Euler: hmmmm
    Liza Deischer: in Dutch we don;t make any difference between male and female words
    Wol Euler: that seems odd
    --BELL--
    Liza Deischer: but I can imagine it has an effect
    Wol Euler grins at the word geeks
    Qt Core: are there other languages, beyong english that use a uppercase fr the first person ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Can't think of one offhand QT
    Wol Euler: nor I
    Agatha Macbeth: Tho German has 'Sie' in polite form
    Wol Euler: second person though, not "me"
    Agatha Macbeth: English is just egocentric :)
    Mickorod Renard: phew
    Wol Euler: well done, Mick.
    Agatha Macbeth nods @ Wol
    Wol Euler: practice makes perfect.
    Liza Deischer: or maybe it is just because it is formed by one letter
    Mickorod Renard: no burps yet
    Wol Euler: cover the keyboard!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    Liza Deischer: eating again :-)
    Mickorod Renard: no,,done now
    Liza Deischer: 'are you being served'
    Agatha Macbeth imagines Mick's KB covered in puke
    Agatha Macbeth: (And then wishes she hadn't)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ick
    Mickorod Renard: well,,there is chance yet
    Wol Euler: nabend yaku
    Agatha Macbeth: Nabend Yaku :)
    Wol Euler: snap
    Agatha Macbeth: Snap
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Agatha Macbeth: Again
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Mickorod Renard: in fact she is sucking the back of her hnd,,I think she is still hungry
    arabella Ella: Hiya Yaku
    Agatha Macbeth: Kids eh?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Yakuzza
    Qt Core: hi Yaku
    Strannik Zipper: In what way might a personal pronoun create an illusion? e.g. the existence of a unified being based on name and form
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Yaku
    Agatha Macbeth: Good question Strannik
    Liza Deischer: hi Yaku
    Wol Euler: well, I can think that it would be disspiriting to be consistently misgendered
    Agatha Macbeth: Wish I had a good answer :)
    Wol Euler: i.e. people say "he" when you think you are a "she"
    Strannik Zipper: Wol - quite right
    Agatha Macbeth: S/he?
    Wol Euler: xie
    Wol Euler: hir
    Wol Euler: hem
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I like the way they say 'hir' and 'hes' at Fracture! :)
    Strannik Zipper: a mislabel that conflicts with an identity
    Wol Euler nods
    Agatha Macbeth: Cute
    Wol Euler: yep
    Wol Euler: if it's persistent, it is easy to take that as disrespectfl or insulting
    Agatha Macbeth: Idenity + label = frequently wrong
    Liza Deischer: or think of 'hey guys' when you mena the whole group
    Agatha Macbeth: +t
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Liza Deischer: *mean
    Strannik Zipper: why are we upset when we are mislabeled in some way?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or when someone call you by the wrong name
    Wol Euler: because it conflicts with our inner identity
    Agatha Macbeth: I always thought it strange that English distinguishes between genders in third person singular, but not in third person plural
    Liza Deischer: and the most upsetting thing is that most people aren upset about it
    Wol Euler nods to Liza
    Strannik Zipper: Wol - what is inner identity?
    Wol Euler: that which I think I am
    Agatha Macbeth: Another good question :)
    Wol Euler: not necessarily how I look to you
    Qt Core: in plural it could me mixed, in singular no, Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: 'I am that I am'?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes QT
    Liza Deischer: there are more girls who want ot be boys then boys want to be girls
    Wol Euler: "you are what you think you are not" is the effect of that mislabelling
    Strannik Zipper: Could that thought - inner identitiy also be a mislabel?
    Wol Euler: I'm not so sure, Liza. I know a lot of both.
    Agatha Macbeth grins
    Wol Euler: (for certain values of "a lot")
    Liza Deischer: yes, when they grow up
    Wol Euler: oh, I see, when they are children. yes, maybe true.
    Liza Deischer: in sl you see it the other way around, but both based on the same principle
    Wol Euler: boys seem to be allowed more and diferent kinds of fun.
    arabella Ella: would it not be nice if we could choose who to be
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Agatha Macbeth nods. Definitely!
    arabella Ella: as we choose on SL
    Liza Deischer: I saw a documentary a long time ago
    Wol Euler: oh, but we can, arabella :)
    Liza Deischer: didn;t see everything
    Wol Euler: it just takes longer and costs more in RL
    Agatha Macbeth: :D
    Liza Deischer: but it was about a country that know 5 different kind of gendes
    Liza Deischer: genders
    Strannik Zipper: Is there any identity which is not based on thought, label or imagination?
    arabella Ella: food for thought Wol :)
    Liza Deischer: male males, female males, female females, male females and hemaphrodites
    Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
    Liza Deischer: (if that is the word)
    Agatha Macbeth: Is that Thailand Liza?
    Wol Euler: then there should be a sixth: "entirely asexual, none of the above"
    Liza Deischer: even better Strannik
    Liza Deischer: I don;t know
    Liza Deischer: they know three genders I guess
    Agatha Macbeth smiles @ 'none of the above'
    Liza Deischer: leaving the male females out
    arabella Ella nods to Wol
    Liza Deischer: ......agina
    Liza Deischer: *again
    arabella Ella: ah Liza that word means 'pastry' in my language :)
    Agatha Macbeth: (Was worried for a moment)
    Liza Deischer: true Wol :-)
    Liza Deischer: but is that a gender?
    Liza Deischer: hmmm, yes I think so
    Agatha Macbeth smiles @ Ara
    Wol Euler: it's a gender identity.
    Wol Euler: of a kind
    Liza Deischer: oh :-) at Ara
    arabella Ella: of course it is
    --BELL--
    Strannik Zipper: Does imagination/labeling of the identity of others or ourselves prevent us from truly knowing either?
    Wol Euler: insofar as the label prevents thought and interferes with free perception, yes.
    Mickorod Renard: I think it may have an effect,,a bit like conditioning
    Liza Deischer: labeling always creates distance
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah. conditioning...yes
    Strannik Zipper: What would it be like to know ourselves and others without that?
    Mickorod Renard: if you do decide to label yourself use a bar code,,it contains more information
    Wol Euler: :)
    Strannik Zipper: hehehe
    Wol Euler could imagine getting a barcode tattoo
    Agatha Macbeth grins
    Wol Euler: hello eden
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Eden
    Liza Deischer: it would certainly add possibilities
    Agatha Macbeth: Edie! :)
    Liza Deischer: making s more free in choices we make
    Liza Deischer: hi Eden
    Liza Deischer: *us
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Eden
    Liza Deischer: but maybe for some os usalso more confusing
    Liza Deischer: *us also
    Eden Haiku: Hi everybody....
    Mickorod Renard: even if someone does manage to make a close judgement on someone elses character it doesnt mean that that person cant change either
    Liza Deischer: (what is wrong with my kb?)
    Strannik Zipper: hi eden
    Liza Deischer: true Mick
    Liza Deischer: and we probably need those concepts to a certain extend
    Agatha Macbeth: And Mick, that assumes the judgement is right! ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,true
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Liza Deischer: or it is a concept you're working with
    Liza Deischer: as long as you know it is a concept
    Agatha Macbeth: We all like to impose our own little models on the world...
    Wol Euler nods.
    Strannik Zipper: I think that there are 2 approaches: one is to apply a label/thought/imagined identity which is always based on past throughts and the other is to observe in the present without labeling at all
    Wol Euler: and that's fine as long as one remembers that the map is not hte territory
    Agatha Macbeth: Mm, yes
    Wol Euler: the bear that isn't on your map might still kill you.
    Agatha Macbeth: I'll bear that in mind
    Liza Deischer: right
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Strannik Zipper: right Wol - labels obviously exist for a reason
    Liza Deischer: it makes it easier on us
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes Stran, cos people keep applying tham! :)
    Wol Euler: this is I think one of the reasons why people who don't fit in the two dominant genders are given such a hard time by others
    Liza Deischer: it is also a way of detecting if something can be harmfull to us
    Agatha Macbeth: them
    Strannik Zipper: but perhaps we use them beyond their purpose, and in so doing, create problems
    Wol Euler: they suggest that the others' maps are wrong or incomplete
    Agatha Macbeth: /nods @ Wol
    Liza Deischer: and people who don't fit both genders are considered to be harmful, if you don't notice it is all a concept
    Wol Euler nods to strannik
    Agatha Macbeth: There's always someone to blame...
    Liza Deischer: yes I think so Strannik
    Mickorod Renard: I think much comes down to making shortcuts,,or speeding up processing by grouping
    Strannik Zipper: what about a 3rd possibility: to observe in a fresh way, the person without the label, and at the same time, to observe ourselves in the process of labeling?
    Wol Euler points at Play as Being and smiels.
    Wol Euler: *smiles, even.
    Strannik Zipper: so that the label is present but does not limit our observation
    Mickorod Renard: even computer programs do it
    Agatha Macbeth: Drop labelling :)
    Wol Euler: mmhm
    Wol Euler: drop identities and let yourself be
    Mickorod Renard: I mean,,group information
    Liza Deischer: because they are made by us
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes :)
    Wol Euler: see what you might be if you weren't what you thought you were
    Agatha Macbeth: (PaB is starting to make more sense :)
    Wol Euler: how many meat-eaters would be perfectly happy vegetarians, if they didn't think that they weren't "vegetarian"?
    arabella Ella: sounds lovely to me Wol :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
    Strannik Zipper: In Wol's bear example, a label is a tool - but the problem of only having one tool like a hammer is that everything starts to look like a nail
    Wol Euler: yep
    Agatha Macbeth: Ha, yes
    Liza Deischer: but it is hard to get rid of labeling, because we are so used to it
    Agatha Macbeth: True
    Liza Deischer: only when there is a real conflict with ourselves, we notice
    --BELL--
    arabella Ella: fraid i must go nite all
    Agatha Macbeth agrees
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Ara
    Wol Euler: bye ara, take care
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now Ara
    Eden Haiku: I must go too. Bye everyone!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eden
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure there are reasons for most things,,but sometimes we get caught in the middle of some injustices by systems built upon good faith for the masses
    Agatha Macbeth: A bientot Edie
    Liza Deischer: bye Eden
    Wol Euler: bye eden
    Mickorod Renard: bye eden,,and Ara
    Qt Core: time to go
    Strannik Zipper: Liza, right - what if we notice at other times as well as a result of "noticing practice"?
    Mickorod Renard: now then,,please excuse me I must depart for the i ching session
    Agatha Macbeth: Ciao QT
    Qt Core: bye all
    Liza Deischer: bye QT
    Wol Euler: bye mick, qt
    Wol Euler: bye mick's babe.
    Mickorod Renard: bye Qt and everyone else
    Strannik Zipper: cheers
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I must go as well, bye all :))
    Agatha Macbeth: I Ching session?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
    Wol Euler: bye sharon, yaku
    Liza Deischer: you've got out of the closet I see :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye all
    Liza Deischer: bye sharon
    Mickorod Renard: yes, i ching,,its top secret,,dont tell anyone
    Liza Deischer: bye Yaku
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, ok
    Liza Deischer: bye.....eh
    Agatha Macbeth: (I'm iching to know)
    Mickorod Renard: its at Ara's secret island
    Wol Euler: ooh
    Strannik Zipper: hahaha
    Strannik Zipper: try a gram
    Agatha Macbeth never knew Ara had a secret island
    Liza Deischer: bye mic
    Liza Deischer: mick
    Liza Deischer: not secret anymore
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now folks, enjoy
    Liza Deischer: bye agatha
    Strannik Zipper: cheers Agatha
    Liza Deischer: oh I see the sun is shining Wol?
    Wol Euler: at 11pm? not here.
    Wol Euler: but it was less rainy than usual today, yes
    Liza Deischer: a bit of sunshine here, not much
    Strannik Zipper: It is a rainy California afternoon
    Liza Deischer: bye Strannik
    Strannik Zipper: Ok - got to go - thank you both for your insights
    Liza Deischer: I think...
    Wol Euler: goodnight, strannik, thanks for the thoughtful comments
    Wol Euler: it was a good conversation
    Liza Deischer: feeling like doing my meditation now :-)
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: Off you go, then :)
    Wol Euler: I shall do some maintenance stuff and then get to bed early
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Wol Euler: are we meeting on Thursday?
    --BELL--
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Wol Euler: ok :)
    Liza Deischer: see you then
    Wol Euler: yep
    Liza Deischer: or earlier
    Liza Deischer: sweet dreams Wol
    Wol Euler smiles. GOodnight, liza

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