2010.05.12 13:00 - Lessons and Turbulances

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

    Wol Euler: wednesday may 12, 1pm
    Wol Euler: hello fef, darren
    Darren Islar: hi Wol, Fonz
    Fefonz Quan: hello Wol, Darren
    Darren Islar: hi sharon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Wol, Fefonz and Darren :)
    Fefonz Quan: hi sophiasharon
    Wol Euler: hello sharon
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Yakuzza :)
    Darren Islar: hi Yaku
    Fefonz Quan: hi Yaku!
    Wol Euler: hello yaku
    Darren Islar: hi Wool
    Wol Euler: hello wool
    Woolcinder Oxidor: Hello Darren
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Woolcinder
    Woolcinder Oxidor: Hello Wol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wool
    Woolcinder Oxidor: Hello Sophia
    Fefonz Quan: hi Wool
    Woolcinder Oxidor: Hello Yakuzza, Fefonz
    SophiaSharon Larnia: whoops have to go, take care everyone ^^
    Wol Euler: bye sharon, take care
    Darren Islar: bye Sharon
    Darren Islar: how is everyone today?
    Wol Euler: mellow
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Eloza!
    Woolcinder Oxidor: i just had a bath..very calm
    Darren Islar: nice :-)
    Darren Islar: hi Eliza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi eliza
    Woolcinder Oxidor: Hello Eliza
    Fefonz Quan: that sounds calming :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fef! Hi Darren, and Wol, and Yakuzza, and Wool :)
    Wol Euler: hello eliza
    Wol Euler: nice outfit.
    Darren Islar: always a nice question: did somebody learn something this week?
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks!
    Wol Euler: hmmmmm
    Fefonz Quan: I have learned, i try to remember what it was... :)
    Darren Islar: :-) so do I actually
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... yes.... hm, rummaging through
    Darren Islar: but maybe it should be part of the nine sec. to become more aware of that
    Fefonz Quan: more aware of what?
    Darren Islar: of the changes in perception we experience during the day
    Eliza Madrigal: That question makes a week seem like a huge amount of time
    Fefonz Quan: indeed eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: but hm, yes during one day... hhmmm
    Darren Islar: a day?
    Darren Islar: last hour?
    Eliza Madrigal: Now we're getting somewhere
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: I have learned that i need some tome alone with myself during the week
    Fefonz Quan: time*
    Wol Euler nods.
    Woolcinder Oxidor: i have learnt that you have no rights to force others to see the world as you percieve it
    Eliza Madrigal drove a girl home from school today, who is returning to Haiti in the next few day, having had all of her friends scattered around the US
    Eliza Madrigal: (this was the last hr)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi calvino!
    Eliza Madrigal: She may be returning to live in a tent... but somehow people appreciate their sense of 'home' ground
    Wol Euler: hello calvino
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
    Darren Islar: hi Cal
    Wol Euler: oh wow
    Fefonz Quan: we discuss the following question:
    Woolcinder Oxidor: hello Cal
    Darren Islar: what does that experience mean to you?
    Wol Euler: was she here already when the earthquake happened?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone :)
    Darren Islar: mor time, no to force opinions on others
    Fefonz Quan: [13:13] Darren Islar: always a nice question: did somebody learn something this week?
    Eliza Madrigal: No... she and her family were displaced... house destroyed, etc
    Darren Islar: somebody who prefers home above a good house
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That is a nice question. :)
    Woolcinder Oxidor: its very humbling
    Fefonz Quan: 'brb
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Wool
    Darren Islar: hmm :-) at Wool
    Woolcinder Oxidor: haiti is a very sad love story
    Darren Islar: why love story?
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
    Woolcinder Oxidor: it was the first free republic of the free world
    Darren Islar: love for your own 'grounds'
    Woolcinder Oxidor: no i was thinging of way before the earthquake
    Woolcinder Oxidor: it started in the 1800's i think
    Darren Islar: ah, don't now much about Haiti I'm afraid
    Woolcinder Oxidor: they were the first to rid themselves of the fetters of imperialism
    Fefonz Quan: back
    Darren Islar: may I ask how it make you feel Eliza, driving that girl home?
    Darren Islar: having her background in mind
    Eliza Madrigal: As Wool said, humbled. She was so sweet and gracious
    Eliza Madrigal: and sad for my daughter to lose such a nice new friend, though of course they have facebook and fanfiction to keep them in touch :)
    Wol Euler nods.
    Darren Islar: hmmm
    Wol Euler: fanfiction, eh? interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: seems the bonding element :)
    Eliza Madrigal: My dd met her when she asked her what she was reading and if it was for pleasure or homework
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: a good question
    Fefonz Quan: this 'or' can be inclusive
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed
    Eliza Madrigal: but it was interesting that when the family lost everything.. pictures, books, etc... there was still an element of continuity for her with internet, etc
    Wol Euler nods thoughtfully
    Fefonz Quan nods, clouds poseesions... mmm
    Fefonz Quan: possesions*
    Fefonz Quan: *s
    Eliza Madrigal mile
    Eliza Madrigal: s*
    Woolcinder Oxidor: yes the story of civilization is an interplay between nature and culture
    Woolcinder Oxidor: in the early ages nature dictated culture
    Fefonz Quan: (i can
    Woolcinder Oxidor: cities used to be ususally besides rivers on trade routes
    Fefonz Quan: 't understand what eliza meant by 'mile', maybe i miss some of the lines here?)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles @ Fef... was making a little wink really... correcting the typo but at only one end...
    Eliza Madrigal: whichever one
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes.. hmm from the wider vantage points turbulence is a healthy part of things it seems
    Darren Islar: it gives other perspectives, but sometimes that can be pretty hard
    Fefonz Quan: ah, i see Eliza :
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, not exactly comforting when going through turbulence personally to be told 'its healthy in the big picture'... but still :)
    Darren Islar: I know what you mean Eliza
    Woolcinder Oxidor: probably Heisenberg said on his death bed...after i die i will ask God two things...why rleativity and why turbulence
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Wol Euler: hello sartre
    Darren Islar: somehow we seem to be able to change more easily during turbulances
    Woolcinder Oxidor: turbulence is one of the most baffling phenomenon in modern science
    Darren Islar: hi Sartre
    Fefonz Quan: I thought he would ask:' why you'?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sartre :)
    Eliza Madrigal: why not ask before
    Woolcinder Oxidor: Hi Sartre
    Yakuzza Lethecus: he´s going to kira
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sartre
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Woolcinder Oxidor: its also called the "butterfly effect"
    Darren Islar: hi Christen
    Wol Euler: hello christen
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Christen
    Wol Euler: have you been here before?
    Christen Aabye: hiyas :-)
    Christen Aabye: no i havnt
    Fefonz Quan: hello christen
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello christen
    Wol Euler: I'll give you an introduciton in IM so we don't disturb the others
    Christen Aabye says in mermish, "Em."
    Christen Aabye: thank Em (EM): You very much :-D
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Eliza Madrigal wonders if Wol speaks mermish
    Woolcinder Oxidor: hello Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: but wouldn't be surprised :)
    Wol Euler: eh?
    Fefonz Quan: hello zen
    Woolcinder Oxidor: if a butterfly flaps its wings in tokyo there will be a storm in brazil
    Fefonz Quan: we talked about: [13:37] Darren Islar: somehow we seem to be able to change more easily during turbulances
    Fefonz Quan: or not :)
    Eliza Madrigal: wouldn't be a chaos theory if we could say a=b?
    Zen Arado: necessity the mother of invention?
    Darren Islar: hi Zen (he said a little late)
    Fefonz Quan: ?
    Wol Euler: hi zen
    Fefonz Quan: (thought zappa was:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Darren do you have ideas about why that might be? Maybe it throws everything into question
    Fefonz Quan: what did you mean by a=b Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: welll if we could follow the butterfly in a predictable way it doesn't seem that chaotic?
    Darren Islar: sorry, being distracted
    Fefonz Quan: ah.
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Wol Euler: predicability and chaos do seem to be contradictory
    Fefonz Quan: well, unpredictability is the issue here
    Woolcinder Oxidor: but we cannot follow it ...and that makes it unpredictable
    Eliza Madrigal: then how do we know the flapping caused the tornado?
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Darren Islar: I think that world is about changing, but we sometimes try so hard not to
    Woolcinder Oxidor: oh we dont...
    Fefonz Quan: well it is just a metaphor, i would say
    Darren Islar: I guess we need some turbulence to wake us up
    Fefonz Quan: (what is the sound of one wing flapping?)
    Eliza Madrigal: timmmmberrrrr?
    Darren Islar: :-)))))
    Woolcinder Oxidor: can there be a sound if no one was there to hear it
    Darren Islar: if one butterfly can cause aa strom, I should say yes :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes does it happen if no one notices/validates... guess same chaos question in some ways
    Woolcinder Oxidor: its th inner turbulence that changes us more
    Woolcinder Oxidor: well metaphysical than chaotic actually
    Darren Islar: why not chaotic if it comes to us personal?
    Woolcinder Oxidor: chaos is more about sensitive dependency on initial conditions....what ever they maybe
    Darren Islar: yes?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, hmm ...
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Eliza Madrigal hears 'timmmberrr' ;-)
    Darren Islar: I guess it is hard to except chaos if it comes to our experiences
    Darren Islar: *own
    Woolcinder Oxidor: so weehter if there was a sound or there wasnt....is immaterial to it....since we will never know....either way...it doesnt change the outcome....or it does ...but we can never formulate how
    Woolcinder Oxidor: sorry my wifi is pretty chaotic
    Zen Arado: another way of saying impermanence, no security, groundlessness?
    Darren Islar: right, so to me that is not very interesting
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Zen
    Darren Islar: more interesting is what we can see is happening to ourselves
    Darren Islar: and how we respond to that
    Eliza Madrigal nods, how we respond to something we can't 'use'
    Darren Islar: it is interesting to see for ourselves how we act upon no security as Zen pointed out
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, strike that statement... thinking of how politicians use disasters, etc
    Zen Arado: use disasters Eiza?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, hidden agendas are there... then an event gives someone an angle
    Eliza Madrigal: ::cough::: Iraq ::cough:::
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Fefonz Quan: need handcarchief Eloza? :)
    Zen Arado: disasters also show up lack of emergency provision and inability to cope with them I think
    Darren Islar is patting Eliza's back
    Eliza Madrigal graciously accepts
    Zen Arado: shows up political incompetence
    Fefonz Quan: the unpredictability takes out our false sense of control, leaving us hang up in the air with no 'reasoning/causality' to lean on
    Eliza Madrigal nods nods.. then what :)
    Darren Islar: quite right
    Zen Arado: well put Fef
    Darren Islar: yes, then what.... ?
    Woolcinder Oxidor: it never admits a lack of causality...only that the causes may be beyond our comprehension sometimes
    Fefonz Quan: then , sometimes, it gives us a glimpse to direct experiencing, by taking out our reference frames for a second
    Darren Islar thinking of the Haitian girl who lost everything
    Zen Arado: so what was the primary cause?
    Zen Arado: agree Fef
    Fefonz Quan: primary casue for what?
    Darren Islar: right fonz
    Zen Arado: everything
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night everyone
    Wol Euler: 'night yaku
    Zen Arado: nite Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Ya :)
    Woolcinder Oxidor: night yakuzza
    Wol Euler: schönen feiertag morgen
    Woolcinder Oxidor: a self sufficien reason?
    Darren Islar: feiertag?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, hmmm... and yes re both cause and no-cause... somehow. That girl may be a lot more 'alive' in some ways, in her life... appreciative
    Wol Euler: christi himmelfahrt
    Darren Islar: for the record, bye Yaku
    Darren Islar: living in the moment
    Darren Islar: not being able to look forward
    Zen Arado: best way
    Eliza Madrigal: well one hopes that she would have 'both' perspectives now.... moment and also the past/present/future continuity
    Eliza Madrigal: simultaneously perhaps... staying connected, in a sense
    Eliza Madrigal: At least it seems something one might learn from her :)
    Fefonz Quan: I do hope there are easier ways to learn those lessons
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: relating to her might be one way
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Darren Islar: there are Fonz, but then we need to learn how to go with the flow
    Darren Islar: not expecting something
    Darren Islar: not knowing what is around the corner
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Darren Islar: good or bad
    Darren Islar: earthquake of richness
    Fefonz Quan: that's what most people call horror movie...
    Wol Euler: how we deal with what happens to us is more important than the events themselves
    Darren Islar: *or
    Darren Islar: yes
    Zen Arado: such high expectations we have of life
    Eliza Madrigal: Response
    Eliza Madrigal: and there comes in the sensitivity, too?
    Wol Euler: studies of happiness show that lottery winners and people who lose a limb in an accident are after 2 years typically just as happy as they were before.
    Wol Euler: or unhappy.
    Zen Arado: yes
    Fefonz Quan: indeed. there goes the hapinnes/external conditions correlation
    Eliza Madrigal: I imagine that both events uncover something under the surface... motives, etc
    Zen Arado: but how do you measure happiness in the first place?
    Wol Euler: I found agreat TED talk on this topic, I'll try to find the url and post it
    Darren Islar: if you are able to respond to such an event, I guess so
    Darren Islar: and we don't know how we act, until we get there
    Zen Arado: happiness is very subjective
    Darren Islar: or...... ?
    Wol Euler: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/da..._we_happy.html
    Zen Arado: I might be miserable and think I am happy
    Eliza Madrigal: then you'd be happy zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Wol :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Fefonz Quan: I've read his 'stumbling on happines'
    Wol Euler: he interviews people who say that they are happy & had good lives, and developed 5 rules fromtheir experience for being happy
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Zen Arado: ty Wol
    Wol Euler: 1) make somebody else very rich
    Wol Euler: 2) spend as much of your life as possible in prison
    Fefonz Quan: many interesting points, yet i thought he missed the big one t the end
    Wol Euler: 3) hmmm, canÄt remember :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: There is this little snippet that went around called "Everything is great and nobody is happy"... basically that a feeling of entitlement makes people unhappy
    Wol Euler: oh yes, that definitely
    Darren Islar: the first two are already tough ones :-)
    Wol Euler: well, watch it and see his examples :)
    Eliza Madrigal: one line was 'how quickly you think the world owes you something you didn't know existed five seconds ago"
    Woolcinder Oxidor: and how do you get to prison
    Wol Euler nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe Wool... maybe that's a theme session topic
    Woolcinder Oxidor: i recal my time in boarding...it was like a prison...i was very happy indeed
    Fefonz Quan: you can make someone rich by robbing a bank and giving the money to someone else, then you get 2 birds in one shot ?)
    Wol Euler: yes!
    Wol Euler: hehehehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Fef as Robin Hood
    Darren Islar: so let's rob a bank then :-)
    Fefonz Quan: ok, and i can volenteer to take the money Darren
    Darren Islar: the PaB-gang :-)
    Eliza Madrigal snaps and struts
    Darren Islar: okay, then I'll be hapy and you not :-)
    Zen Arado: not so sure about the prison bit
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes not really dressed for it Zen
    Wol Euler chuckles. It may have been tongue-in-cheek.
    Zen Arado: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: @wool, do you mean, the "freedom from choice" in the boarding, allowed for a happiness?
    Calvino Rabeni: I was trying to understand that last remark
    Woolcinder Oxidor: probably...and when you know you had no choice...or very little...you wouldnt bother much about it
    Zen Arado: so much for freedom
    Woolcinder Oxidor: concentrate more on what you have
    Eliza Madrigal romanticized boarding schools as a kid as many American children probably
    Zen Arado: 'forced to be free' as Sartre said
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Darren Islar: which Sartre?
    Woolcinder Oxidor: but looking back i rue for the time i lost that could have been spent chasing girls
    Darren Islar: (joking)
    Zen Arado: oh think it was Rousseau not Sartre
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe Wool, but I'm sure you aquired skills for just such future endeavors ... manners, etc
    Wol Euler: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, Eliza :)
    Woolcinder Oxidor: yes i have often thought of it this way
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Fef, nice to see you
    Zen Arado: manners?
    Fefonz Quan: I'll say good night, friends!
    Wol Euler: bye fef, take care
    Woolcinder Oxidor: bye Fef
    Zen Arado: have to try that :)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Darren Islar: bye Fonz
    Fefonz Quan: nice seeing u too eliza!
    Zen Arado: bhe Fef
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_ bye all!
    Eliza Madrigal waves
    Eliza Madrigal: They are the least acknowledged, best thing ever
    Zen Arado: agrees
    Woolcinder Oxidor: you do acquire a sense of sadness
    Eliza Madrigal: sadness?
    Zen Arado: no use dwelling on the past
    Darren Islar: I will be going too
    Darren Islar: see you guys and girls
    Woolcinder Oxidor: but the past always dwells with you in the present
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Darren :)) See you soon
    Wol Euler: 'night darren, take care
    Woolcinder Oxidor: night Darren
    Zen Arado: night Darren
    Calvino Rabeni: @wool, that's valid too
    Eliza Madrigal nods... yes a tricky line
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, ye departing ones :)
    Eliza Madrigal: if you 'don't' look at the past, then its the same as looking too much?
    Eliza Madrigal: gives it a kind of charge?
    Zen Arado: you can't change it
    Woolcinder Oxidor: overlooking you mean?
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe, not sure really
    Eliza Madrigal: not repressing but not dwelling ... seems the thing
    Woolcinder Oxidor: there are certain quantum mechanical concepts in which you influence the past
    Calvino Rabeni: what you say makes sense to me Eliza
    Zen Arado: oh?
    Zen Arado: didn't know that
    Zen Arado: the person we were in the past is not the same person we are now
    Calvino Rabeni: We live in the middle world - the human one - the facts of quantum mechanics for practical purposes are a distant rumor, or maybe, a kind of inspirational analogy
    Eliza Madrigal: well, think of the 'timeless' perspective though... same really in some ways as the girl from Haiti having perhaps, two vantage points...
    Zen Arado: we wouldn't make the same choices if we had to again
    Wol Euler: well ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Because circumstances would be different
    Calvino Rabeni: So that would be appropriate :)
    Eliza Madrigal: there is where we are with its past/present/future structure... but then there is a perspective of all those things 'encompassed' in a sense?
    Calvino Rabeni: There are certain types of choices though, we make over and over and over and over
    Calvino Rabeni: kind of like the movie "groundhogs day"
    Eliza Madrigal: great movie
    Calvino Rabeni: In an analogy with reincarnation
    Calvino Rabeni: each time a little different, - basically depending on a transformation of the self and motivation
    Zen Arado: if we are stuck in a behaviour pattern?
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps someday to get it "right", and then be released from the cycle
    Calvino Rabeni: It was a great parable of a movie
    Wol Euler: that sounds vaguely familiar :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But these choices are real in everyday life
    Eliza Madrigal: in the 'timeless' frame, then past/present/future are there... but open?
    Calvino Rabeni: Seems like that perhaps ?
    Eliza Madrigal: so of course then there wouldn't be a separation in the way we think there is
    Eliza Madrigal: not that its not way over my head... need to re read the milk discussions
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    Wol Euler: eh?
    Eliza Madrigal: the timeless time discussions you had with Pema Wol :)
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Wol Euler: I'd like to revisit those, I think I understand what he meant much better now
    Woolcinder Oxidor: there is a language...i dont recall which now..in which the past is referre as future and the future as the past
    Zen Arado: past time doesn't exist
    Wol Euler speaks into the camera: Pema, shall we have a rematch?
    Zen Arado: only our memories
    Eliza Madrigal smiles and hopes
    Eliza Madrigal: but it does seem that qm keeps validating these 'ideas' found in ancient texts, etc
    Woolcinder Oxidor: those people refer to the past as whats ahead of us...rhate than what is behind us
    Eliza Madrigal: or at least leaving open more possibiities
    Woolcinder Oxidor: *rather
    Wol Euler: walking backwards, a nice image
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm
    Zen Arado: for Christmas?
    Wol Euler: ha!
    Wol Euler: a goonie.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that is interesting Wool, some people / cultures have their metahpors reversed about time
    Zen Arado: across the Irish sea :)
    Zen Arado: wouldn't walk anywhere for Christmas
    Calvino Rabeni: The question is, what does it change about how they experience their lives, that past is ahead and future behind
    Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goon_Show
    Eliza Madrigal makes note: Rent Goonies
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, wrong thing
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes good question Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: (just sent email to pema with chat snippet) heheh
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a question from embodied linguistics
    Zen Arado: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZhS0tNZSEo
    Zen Arado: song
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, must upgrade adobe first
    Zen Arado: it's very silly
    Wol Euler smiles happily
    Zen Arado: :)
    Woolcinder Oxidor: yes starts like bugs bunny
    Zen Arado: Ying Tong niddle I po much better :)
    Eliza Madrigal: And before that, I'd better go... dinner to puzzle out. A great conversation though... Thanks everyone :) Will check the links later
    Wol Euler: bye eliza, cook well
    Woolcinder Oxidor: bye Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks
    Zen Arado: bye Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: :::waves happily:::
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni will go too - the future is creeping up behind me pretty fast :)
    Wol Euler: "sorrowing-ing" heheheheh
    Woolcinder Oxidor: i must go as well people
    Wol Euler: bye cal, bye wool
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks all, be well :)
    Zen Arado: bye Cal
    Woolcinder Oxidor: bye Everyone...splendid conversations
    Zen Arado: bye all
    Wol Euler: bye zen, sleep well
    Wol Euler: bye recorder
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