2010.05.15 13:00 - male and female energies

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Darren Islar. The comments are by Darren Islar.
    When Cal and I started our conversation we were still in the village, exchanging a few lines, talking about clothing
    Darren Islar: I started plain too
    Darren Islar: but now I have a girlfriend and she has 'wishes'
    Calvino Rabeni: I've experienced similar at times - what's it all about ? :)
    Darren Islar: is that a question?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes... if you wish
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe I have wishes too :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But, of course, it's not appropriate
    Darren Islar: :-)

    Darren starts to tell about his male experiences with his girlfriend, trying to capture what 'he' feels like his male-energy and how that interconnects with 'his' female side

    Darren Islar: i met her as Liza
    Calvino Rabeni: Having a special relationship allows the envelope of wishes and fantasies - to be extended to another one who is close by
    Calvino Rabeni: Met as Liza, now mostly interact as Darren?
    Darren Islar: quite different from her, she being a real woman
    Darren Islar: but still getting along pretty well
    Darren Islar: there was some attraction and then she came forward telling Liza that in rl she is a he
    Darren Islar: the attraction didn't work with Liza, but works with Darren
    Darren Islar: it made me come into contact with my male sexual drive
    Darren Islar: my female part can only thrive if that male-part is at place
    Calvino Rabeni: At place, at peace? Doing its part properly?
    Darren Islar: Men has an outgoing energy
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been thinking about it
    Darren Islar: and only with that energy, my also strong female part can work
    Darren Islar: making Darren a real softy
    Darren Islar: but now feeling good about it

    Cal putting in his observations about male-female-energy in the town where he is staying right now

    Darren Islar: you have been thinking ?
    Darren Islar: and have been chaneching into a woman
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes all the ins and outs of the male / female polarity the dynamics

    --BELL--

    Calvino Rabeni: I'm in a small town lately - it makes observations easier than a big city, at least for me

    arabella Ella: Hiya!
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Ara!
    Darren Islar: hi Ara
    arabella Ella: wow it is quiet here tonight!

    Calvino Rabeni: THere
    Calvino Rabeni: .. is a huge 2-day mountain bicycle race this weekend
    Darren Islar: we're talking about the ins and outs of male and female parts/energy
    arabella Ella: interesting comment Calvino could you say more please!
    Calvino Rabeni: as a result the male energy is higher in the area
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been observing changes in this town over the years
    arabella Ella: what observations have impressed you most if I may ask?
    Calvino Rabeni: The dynamic of polarity between male/female energy has been slowly changing
    arabella Ella: (since I live in a small place too ... an island of course!)
    Calvino Rabeni: First of all, it's a kind of "new age" enclave, and based on tourism and specifically, the theater
    arabella Ella: cool
    Calvino Rabeni: And those lent a female energetic quality for a long time
    Calvino Rabeni: The polarity seems to be intensifying, but in an integrating way
    Calvino Rabeni: It is getting stronger, more dynamic, rather than "averaging" and combining
    Darren Islar: which makes a certain awereness more possible
    Calvino Rabeni: And it reminded me of what Darren was saying before you came today, ara
    arabella Ella: what elements do you recognise as male energy then?
    arabella Ella: and female energy?
    Calvino Rabeni: That strengthening one, strengthens the other
    arabella Ella: oh ... and what did Darren say?
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: (too many questions!)
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you paraphrase Darren?
    Darren Islar: [13:11] Darren Islar: Men has an outgoing energy
    Calvino Rabeni: Or I could quote you
    Darren Islar: and only with that energy, my also strong female part can work [13:12] Darren Islar: making Darren a real softy [13:13] Darren Islar: but now feeling good about it
    arabella Ella: isn't male energy more 'external' and female more 'internal' or emotional?
    Calvino Rabeni: "my female part can only thrive if that male-part is at place:
    Calvino Rabeni: " - quoted log
    Darren Islar: yes, I said that too :-)
    arabella Ella: yes ... thanks ... very interesting ... considering that gender appears to operate on a continuum somehow
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, there's facts, and then, interpretations
    arabella Ella: yes ... but I dont see it as polarity
    Calvino Rabeni: An observation - there's a tribal style dance event in this town
    Calvino Rabeni: it used to be once a week
    Darren Islar: we have a lot of interprations of what males and females should be like
    arabella Ella: oh ... what sort?
    Calvino Rabeni: Now it happens 3 times a week, and is very well attended
    arabella Ella: tribal dance i mean?
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: At the beginning, years ago, it was attended by mostly females, artsy types, earth mothers, dancers
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: The music was softer, feminine
    arabella Ella: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: But over the years, by now, it is a least half men
    Calvino Rabeni: Tradesmen, working class, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: And they have a skill of doing drumming performances, that are intense
    arabella Ella: do you think that perhaps females are taking on more male attitudes and traits?
    Calvino Rabeni: The event has appropriated these skills and made them part of it
    arabella Ella: very interesting!
    Calvino Rabeni: The females clearly really like absorbing the male energy that is produced in those performances
    Calvino Rabeni: so there is a wishing coming in

    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Hokon :)
    arabella Ella: good to c u
    Darren Islar: hi Hokon
    Darren Islar: have you been here before Hokon?

    (Hokon is crashing and joining us later again)

    getting deeper into how those energies seem to interact, yin-yang, polarities and paradoxes

    Calvino Rabeni: It's like the yin yang symbol, with the opposites taken into each side
    arabella Ella: yes but we should also keep in mind the fact that yin and yang overlap and complement each other
    Calvino Rabeni: The sides have integrated more dynamically, not by canceling or averaging
    arabella Ella: i am totally against dualities or polarisations ... which cannot be the reality we live in
    arabella Ella: life is more complex than that
    Calvino Rabeni: Like a battery, the polarity strengthens as each is enabled by the other to get stronger
    Hokon Cazalet: cool

    --BELL--

    arabella Ella whispers ... hiya mick
    Mickorod Renard: dum de dum
    Darren Islar: hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Guys

    Darren Islar: I've been thinking about paradox a lot lately
    Darren Islar: being Darren includes my male part better
    arabella Ella: paradoxes are amazing as are contradictions too
    Mickorod Renard: yes they are
    Darren Islar: and for separating it form my rl-being
    Darren Islar: integration starts to become possible
    Mickorod Renard: I love them,,to a point,,then they start driving me crazy
    arabella Ella: but ... why would you wish to separate it from your RL being?
    Darren Islar: polarisation that leads to integration
    Calvino Rabeni: Darren, can I quote something I found interesting, that you wrote in the email list?
    arabella Ella: is not everything RL?
    arabella Ella: including SL?
    Calvino Rabeni: About this topic?
    Darren Islar: it is not a wish, it happens
    arabella Ella: yes
    Darren Islar: in this reality I can choose between two genders
    Darren Islar: so I make a female avatar
    Darren Islar: being close to who I am
    arabella Ella: well to be honest Darren i find you totally different as Darren :)
    Darren Islar: and explore with a male avatar
    Darren Islar: and find out that this part never was able to show itself
    arabella Ella nods
    Darren Islar: in his ful extend
    arabella Ella: ah ... the beauty of the possibilities which SL offers us!
    Calvino Rabeni: I was most interested in one sentences in your email, Darren, about holding the paradox
    Darren Islar: yes, but looking back
    Mickorod Renard: I am intrigued
    Darren Islar: it was by polarisation I became aware of it and can now integrate it
    Calvino Rabeni: OR the polarity, as I think of it. A paradox says something makes no logical sense. A polarity says that differences belong together
    arabella Ella: how lovely!
    Darren Islar: well said Cal :-)

    Darren Islar: wb Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: ty
    Darren Islar: have you been here before ?
    Hokon Cazalet: yup a few times
    Darren Islar: ok

    arabella Ella: but Darren ...
    arabella Ella: don't you find it difficult when ppl treat you differently as Darren?
    arabella Ella: or does it all come easy?
    Darren Islar: Darren is different
    Darren Islar: so is treated differently
    arabella Ella: yes ... i find Darren different so i treat him differently too
    Darren Islar: of course he is not really different from me the one that is typing
    arabella Ella: :)
    Darren Islar: but different from Liza yes
    arabella Ella nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Somewhere behind Darren and Liza there is a place that the polarities meet and get held together
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be hard to have such different avatars without a sense of center
    Calvino Rabeni: in my opinion
    arabella Ella: did you feel any different the other day Calvino?
    Darren Islar: yes, probably, and that is the real interesting part
    Calvino Rabeni: I wanted to quote D / L about holding this polarity
    Darren Islar: but still need to do some 'research' :-)
    arabella Ella: or did ppl treat you differently?
    Calvino Rabeni: "Trying to stand completely still, in complete balance, and I find the real dynamic, sometimes vibrating strongly."
    Calvino Rabeni: Not trying to evade your question Ara :)
    arabella Ella: no worries
    arabella Ella: apologies for having so many questions
    Darren Islar: actually it is nice to be treated differently
    arabella Ella: just plain curious
    Darren Islar: because in rl people see you and start to treat you like they always do
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: even tho in RL very ppl know the real 'me' i guess?
    Darren Islar: and therefor confirming parts of me, but also denying parts
    Darren Islar: for just being a female

    The importance of how you are being seen as a female quality?…..

    Calvino Rabeni: OK a related question is - is it a "feminine" quality, to feel it important how one is perceived and treated by others - to are about the quality of witnessing one receives?
    Calvino Rabeni: As a pole of a polarity, being "receptive" means, needing to be witnessed, also feeling vulnerable to the quality of that witnessing
    Darren Islar: ('just being' of course not meant in a negative way)
    arabella Ella: don't you think that would apply to both males and females Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: A self image - residing not quite in oneself, but how one is seen by others
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it varies according to this idea of the masculine / feminine polarity Ara, whatever that means
    Darren Islar: maybe, but I think that the phrase 'men don't cry' have done a lot of harm to a lot of men
    arabella Ella: oh yes ... to both of your responses!
    Mickorod Renard: as a male I can say, openly,,that it does occur to me at times that I may be being treated in a way I don't like,,but as a male I do not make it too obvious
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, that's an oldie / moldy
    arabella Ella: well does the history of gender and the manner in which we are raised also have a role to play here?
    Darren Islar: but I think in a way men, for the fact of being taken more seriously, also find it very difficult to explore besides there being a male
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure but the whole idea of humans having these different polarities within them - in a complicated mixture as I think Ara pointed out - and having a female as well as male "side" within...
    Darren Islar: it is probably why sl has more genderchanging males then females

    --BELL--

    … getting us to the discussion about genders and how that works out in sl

    Calvino Rabeni: Several reasons that might be so Darren, have occurred to me.- about the trend of gender-changing roleplaying
    Darren Islar: Im afraid so Ara
    Calvino Rabeni: Massive role, Ara
    Calvino Rabeni: As all our other natures and traditions, such as capitalism, philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: We're the same beings here
    arabella Ella: speaking for myself i still live in a society where gender roles are pretty well defined ... regretfully
    Calvino Rabeni: And only move the boundaries around a little bit
    arabella Ella: and as a RL female i must admit i have suffered a great deal for having been born female
    arabella Ella: and still do
    Hokon Cazalet: =(
    Darren Islar: yes, I know the feeling, as kid always wanted to be a boy
    arabella Ella: males here are still placed on a pedestal
    arabella Ella: and their voices are louder
    arabella Ella: they have more autonomy
    arabella Ella: and more support
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, well, west coast USA - california, etc. - I think has followed a cultural trend that has gone beyond the "break down the stereotypes" work that seems useful in places with more rigid role models
    Darren Islar: now knowing that I probably didn't want to be a boy, but not being really female, leaves you not much options
    arabella Ella: females are still meant to be nurturing here
    Hokon Cazalet: i think it does have to do with history; my life history produced the opposite, my mind (wrongly so) views women as above men
    Calvino Rabeni: If the males are privileged in SL, why would more people choose to be "females"?
    arabella Ella: that sounds nice to me Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not disagreeing
    Calvino Rabeni: But given freedome of choice, to some degree, and the choice is "rather be female"
    arabella Ella: well Calvino it is all a matter of exploring possibilities i guess which are not possible in RL
    Hokon Cazalet: its not so nice though, given that im a guy in rl, so i hated my sex as a kid
    Darren Islar: because here you can examine, without getting glances of people and getting fired over it
    arabella Ella: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: yup darren

    arabella Ella: wb Mick
    Darren Islar: wb Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi,,I think I missed some

    the discussion goes to exploring the stereotyping of the genders in rl mostly and we try to read there effects

    Calvino Rabeni: Experimenting, but that would work for either direction of gender switching ... or would it?
    arabella Ella: yes it would
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe not
    Darren Islar: but females can wear pants in rl, males can't wear dresses
    arabella Ella: but maybe since females are generally known to be more emotional ...
    Calvino Rabeni: There might be a differential
    arabella Ella: they may be more scared of the consequences of gender switching also on SL ... who knows
    Hokon Cazalet: yup darren, and there's still the taboo of a guy showing his feelings
    Calvino Rabeni: more emotional means ... allowed to change mind more often, to be less consistent, and all those things that contradict traditional "logic"
    arabella Ella nods
    Hokon Cazalet: if a guy cries, he is "gay"
    Darren Islar: research show that about 15% of the girls (children) want to be male, and only 1 % of the males want to be female
    Calvino Rabeni: You could say, logic has a strongly "masculine" association
    arabella Ella: i would expect the percentages to be higher than that Darren
    Darren Islar: but later on, being a male is harder to 'break through'
    Mickorod Renard: I work in a high school/college,,its interesting to see the enforcement of gender traits in these age groups
    arabella Ella: logic, rationality, etc
    Darren Islar: men are taking themselves too seriously :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: In the real world Darren. In SL the numbers would be different I think
    Darren Islar: women learnt not to do that, they have learned not to take themselves too seriously
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, the women want that to happen too, darren
    Darren Islar: yes, but I think that is with adults
    arabella Ella: a female who takes herself too seriously generally has to suffer various consequences
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, interesting point Darren
    Darren Islar: men speak there mind, women are used to manipulate
    arabella Ella: nooooooo
    arabella Ella disagrees with Darren there
    arabella Ella: (about female manipulation)
    Hokon Cazalet: i disagree that men speak their mind
    Calvino Rabeni: Darren was voicing the stereotype role I think
    Darren Islar: well manipulation is perceived as a negative word
    Darren Islar: but you can also say that you try to steer with a soft hand
    Mickorod Renard: men would speak their mind if it were not for the consequences of upsetting women
    Hokon Cazalet: maybe regarding beliefs yes, but men hide their emotional mind
    Calvino Rabeni: It is important when talking philosophy to keep "is" and "ought" distinct
    arabella Ella: i personally think that some males and some females tend to be manipulative
    Hokon Cazalet: yup calvino (david hume)
    Darren Islar: true Ara, of course
    arabella Ella: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree Mick, that dynamic is in play
    arabella Ella: i also think a lot has to do with both expectations from parents and significant others and upbringing too
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    arabella Ella: (conditioning?0
    Darren Islar: yes I agree with you too Mick
    Calvino Rabeni: In fact, there's very few simplistic statements one could not find some support for, but question in the general case
    Calvino Rabeni: It
    Calvino Rabeni: The stereotype says "men keep their words"
    Darren Islar: thanks Cal, because that is what I was heading for :-)
    arabella Ella: owwwww ... that's mean Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: And the expectation comes from both genders
    Calvino Rabeni: Mean?
    Darren Islar: but of course nobody matches the stereotypes
    arabella Ella: i know very few males who keep their word
    Calvino Rabeni: Right not exactly, but no one is free from them either
    arabella Ella: i find males idealistic ... they dream in an unrealistic world
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe how i feel the reverse
    Calvino Rabeni: It's differential perception - that's a big part of stereotypes
    Hokon Cazalet: how odd*
    arabella Ella: and males are reared to focus on only one thing generally work or career
    Mickorod Renard: keeping their word comes from role play as children,,I am not sure the next generation of men have had the role play that we may have had in our childhood Cal
    arabella Ella: @ Hokon ... I understand perfectly
    Calvino Rabeni: Every bit of evidence one collects, mostly supports one's own point of view to confirm it, naturally

    --BELL--

    Calvino Rabeni: That is why intellectual discussions of gender roles resist any attempt at resolution on a logical basis -
    Hokon Cazalet: id agree calvino, i saw that with myself, we tend to cherry pick in general, with most topics
    arabella Ella: yes we do Hokon
    Calvino Rabeni: And why the vague ideas like "masculine / feminine energy" can help thinking it out
    arabella Ella: so Calvino ... what is masculine energy ... and what is feminine energy?

    (a smal misunderstanding)

    Darren Islar: heading to a different discussion :-)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Darren
    aDarren Islar: no Mick, I mean here
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you want to change the topic, Darren?
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Darren Islar: no
    Darren Islar: :_)
    Darren Islar: skipp it :-)
    Darren Islar: my remarks I mean :-)

    Well, looking, I probably wanted to change the topic, or rather the level of which the topic is discussed about. Because it is hard to speak in general terms, so trying to make it a bit more personal, in the meanwhile the discussion about stereotyping continues, trying to figure out what it means in today's life where 'roles' seem to shift

    arabella Ella: i find it fascinating however to observe how fluid gender boundaries are becoming today in such ways we would never every have dreamt 10 years ago
    Darren Islar: to me the male energy is more outgoing
    Mickorod Renard: I suspect most women know that Men have feelings, but I think that many choose to ignor this, conveniently
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking - not sure this would be a popular idea - that the thing both Love and Aggression have is that they move to transcend or transgress boundaries
    Calvino Rabeni: like, "love knows no limits"
    arabella Ella: but i think it only makes a male more 'authentic' when feelings and emotions are expressed
    Hokon Cazalet: id agree arabella
    arabella Ella: ah Calvino you sound very Freudian when you mention Eros and Thanatos
    Calvino Rabeni: @mick, I think you give some meaningful voice to some of the predicaments that come to males within the stereotypes
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe ara
    Mickorod Renard: thats because they are usually shown when they have reached their limit to hiding it,,or holding it back
    arabella Ella: it is also a matter of trust and reciprocity
    Mickorod Renard: to Ara
    arabella Ella: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It's all related. Trust is so ambiguous - it means lots of things
    Calvino Rabeni: so it's probably worthwhile not to cherry pick there too
    arabella Ella: Trust also means openness
    Calvino Rabeni: For example -= trust to be authentic - very different than - trust do do what you said you would do
    Darren Islar: there is something about the male energy that is nurtering
    Calvino Rabeni: Nurturing, yes - the "man womb"
    Mickorod Renard: I do feel a certain friction these days,,between genders,,and feel its because those old limits are becoming obsolete
    arabella Ella: ah Calvino ... forget the 'do what you said you would do' ... I am past believing that or expecting it either
    Mickorod Renard: that once had each gender their own domain
    Calvino Rabeni: But, it still matters to many people Ara
    Calvino Rabeni: and that is therefore, part of the stereotype system
    Hokon Cazalet: brb potty
    arabella Ella: perhaps i have heard this phrase too often 'Leave it to me I'll do it later ' ... and later never comes!
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Life issues :)
    arabella Ella: he he
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: THen why - in that scenario - does "later" never come?
    Darren Islar: at the moment the male-nurturing part is what interests me most
    Calvino Rabeni: Every scenario has its "logic"
    arabella Ella: ah ... perhaps because ... generally speaking again ... different genders have different expectations, different priorities too
    arabella Ella: often based on upbringing ... conditioning too possibly
    Calvino Rabeni: @darren, I want to think about that topic with people - raise it any time :)
    Mickorod Renard: I agree with diferent priorities
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree with conditioning :)

    The nurturing quality in males

    arabella Ella: i like the idea of discussing male nurturing
    Calvino Rabeni: It is indeed, a good topic
    Mickorod Renard: I like the idea of female nurturing
    Darren Islar: maybe we can do that next week, if nothing else comes up
    arabella Ella: what questions would you raise there Darren?
    Calvino Rabeni: Imagine, or remember, when you first fall in love - at that time, the nurturing instincts are strongly in play
    Darren Islar: I think male nurturing is also touching female nurturing
    Calvino Rabeni: But then in the long run, it is still important
    arabella Ella: ah ... does love not thrive on nurturing, tolerance, acceptance?
    Mickorod Renard: male nurturing is mostly to do with touching women
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, "witnessing" is a male nurturing activity
    arabella Ella: witnessing?
    arabella Ella: how?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes - it is attention that is given, for the Other's benefit

    --BELL--

    arabella Ella: oh ... perhaps through listening too?
    Calvino Rabeni: It is the energy that says - I see You (the Other) - and I will maintain a steady reality so you are free to be what you need to be right now
    Calvino Rabeni: That's my "quick" take on witnessing, although it's a really big tipic
    Calvino Rabeni: *topic
    Darren Islar: female nurturing can only thrive when there is male nurturing, 'protecting' the boundaries
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree Darren with that dynamic
    Darren Islar: it is more looking outside to protect, so the female energy is free to look more closely inside
    arabella Ella: but Darren ...
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure that somewhere all this is an evolution from finding a suitable mate
    Calvino Rabeni: Boundaries and psychic "space" are often - I don't want to say exclusively - a function of witnessing and then acting based on that
    Darren Islar: but it can only work proparly if those two energies work together
    arabella Ella: females can also nurture their kids when no male is present ... or their parents ... or other significant others with no males present too
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe I'm on Darren's wavelength about this
    Darren Islar: of course Ara
    Darren Islar: but I'm talking about the energy, not about the body that is carrying it
    Darren Islar: male or female
    Calvino Rabeni: But, I would think that difficult, not emotionally ideal, a kind of make-do?
    arabella Ella: ah ... ok ... i see
    arabella Ella: what precisely do you see as difficult Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: Holding a family together without help, for instance
    arabella Ella: but it is often a necessity
    Calvino Rabeni: having to handle all the conflicting needs - both physical and emotional
    Darren Islar: ift is hard on everyone to do that by yourself
    Calvino Rabeni: It may be a necessity but it is not an ideal
    Hokon Cazalet: cats have family without a physical father, as do many species
    Mickorod Renard: lot of talk here about lack of male role models in families and institutions
    Calvino Rabeni: It is hard on everyone, agree
    arabella Ella: but the ideal is often overstated isnt it

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: hi everyone ! :-)
    Hokon Cazalet: hi bert
    arabella Ella: Hiya bert

    arabella Ella: the ideal relationship of a male with a female is very overrated IMHO
    Calvino Rabeni: THe ideal is often longed-for :)
    arabella Ella: but the ideal is very unrealistic too
    Calvino Rabeni: Ideals hold the positives as well as the negative ideas about how things might possibly work
    Darren Islar: maybe the ideal the society looks at it, but I try to define the different kinds of energy that I feel with in myself, and seeing changing when I am Liza or Darren
    Hokon Cazalet: i think its rooted in biology ara, not ontology; we often confuse the former for the latter; so yes, id agree its not an actual ideal, as many take it to be
    Mickorod Renard: its overrated now I think,,as many male female relationships no longer stand up as pillars
    arabella Ella: i mean ... how is the ideal created? through media? through stereotypes ... or via reality?
    Calvino Rabeni: @darren, knowing for oneself is important
    Calvino Rabeni: Even if it is done by feeling how relationships are going
    Calvino Rabeni: @ara, all of the above
    Calvino Rabeni: *abive
    arabella Ella: but remember we only view other ppl's relationships from the outside
    Darren Islar: (Hi Bert :-))
    Calvino Rabeni: *above - will take typing class surely

    Inside - outside, how do we want to look at ourselves and to others, with Mick, nailing the way we might feel about looking inside

    arabella Ella: the inside is often very different from what is externally perceived
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Hokon Cazalet is a telepath, so she can see the inside
    arabella Ella: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =P
    Darren Islar: that is probably ara why I like to look inside
    Hokon Cazalet: id agree ara
    Calvino Rabeni: Inside vs outside - now there's a Koan that just won't go away :)
    arabella Ella: now I see (or think) Hokon and Darren may be on Ara's wavelength?
    Mickorod Renard: the inside is often too painful to look at
    arabella Ella: (a bit skeptical)
    Darren Islar: true Mick
    Bertram Jacobus: inside out, outside in ... a part of a "very old" songtext (by the group "yes" i guess) ...
    Darren Islar: that si probably why we like to take these kinds of disucssions 'outside'
    Darren Islar: ah, yes Bert, rings a bell somewhere
    Bertram Jacobus: :-))
    Calvino Rabeni: (footnote - Yes was an underrated rock band of the seventies)

    Are we monogamous or what ?
    from the perspective of what ideal may be: a corrective tool? The ideal of marriage

    arabella Ella: one simple question ... are we as humans geared to go in to life long monogamous relationships based on the 'ideal' which is ingrained in us when young?
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a good one
    arabella Ella: (feels very sceptical there)
    Calvino Rabeni: History says, mostly "no"
    Mickorod Renard: I think a fair proportion of the probs occur when the ideal isnt lived up to
    arabella Ella: and living in a country where there is no divorce makes that question even more difficult somehow to deal with
    Hokon Cazalet: id say not life-long monogamy, serial monogamy seems more natural
    Darren Islar: I don't feel monogamous
    arabella Ella: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The funny nature of an "ideal" is that it is usually an idea that holds a corrective role, that doesn't describe an ideal reality, but a way to change from current conditions
    Hokon Cazalet: i dont, but cuz i choose not to
    arabella Ella: well monogamy i am told is a form of social control by the state
    Calvino Rabeni: In other words, "ideals" by nature, don't point to truth / reality
    Darren Islar: right Cal, so we use the word ideal wrong here :-)
    Hokon Cazalet: whoa
    Hokon Cazalet: not really, true love began as a revolt against the catholic church in the 13th century
    Calvino Rabeni: That is "is" vs "ought" again.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Hokon
    Mickorod Renard: corrective roles are quite handy for holding societies together
    Hokon Cazalet: and against the pre-arranged marriage system
    Calvino Rabeni: Romanticism and chivalry became wedded then
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    arabella Ella: it is in the interest of every state to encourage its citizens to have a family and to remain monogamous for the good of the economy ... so i am told
    Darren Islar: but still based on monogamy Hokon?
    Calvino Rabeni: It was an "ought-ideal"
    Mickorod Renard: just my point Ara
    Hokon Cazalet: might be arabella, but the history in the west behind true love is not of that origin
    arabella Ella: but i never mentioned 'love' Hokon
    Mickorod Renard: whats love?
    arabella Ella: I agree with you it is a relatively recent phenomenon
    Mickorod Renard: joking
    Darren Islar: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: My view is, ideals and perhaps many spritual ideas, are "lies" that benefit us to believe
    arabella Ella: Love? I like the tune 'Love Hurts!'
    Hokon Cazalet: i know, but monogamy became the norm with the rise of true love; polygamy before then was the norm (notice, nowhere in the bible is monogamy advocated)
    arabella Ella nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Only "lies" in the sense of not matching how Reality works
    Hokon Cazalet: monogamy has no biblical basis, whatsoever
    arabella Ella: true

    --BELL--

    Or represents an ideal something different? And ideal of becoming

    arabella Ella: even for royalty with arranged marriages monogamy was not expected
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Darren Islar: especially not for royalties
    arabella Ella: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: id disagree calvino, id say we are becoming, thus ideals help us progress
    Hokon Cazalet: well, can help
    Calvino Rabeni: Early christianity was the opposite of current, in many ways
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Darren Islar: true
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I guess I'd be able to think I agree with you on that Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: ideals are not of objects or facts, but of something higher: essences and principles
    Calvino Rabeni: Living up to an idea - means we aren't already that way
    Calvino Rabeni: If we were, we wouldn't think about it, or "need" the ideal
    Calvino Rabeni: It may represent how we are "becoming"
    Darren Islar: ideal is a concept that can change over time
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah and i think thats the problem, western culture has adopted an "if your not the ideal, you suck"
    arabella Ella: well i think if we were to reflect on what aspects of our life are subject to social control we would be amazed
    Calvino Rabeni: or one possibility for it anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: Not I Ara
    arabella Ella: surely you dont have four or five wives Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: There's no aspect that is not subject to social influence
    arabella Ella: (joking)
    Hokon Cazalet: they do darren, but i think there are universal ideals, ones that are actually true
    Darren Islar: hmm, nice discussion Hokon, for another time :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Ara, please elaborate the "Calvino has multiple wives" scenario
    Hokon Cazalet: (sorry my use of the word universal is bad)
    Hokon Cazalet: okies =)
    Mickorod Renard: I think that we have different perspectives of what is ideal as we travel through our individual lives
    arabella Ella: just delete the comment Calvino ... i was joking
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe Darren's quote earlier speaks to that, Hokon
    Calvino Rabeni: Trying to stand completely still, in complete balance, and I find the real dynamic, sometimes vibrating strongly.
    Calvino Rabeni: What is the "real dynamic"
    arabella Ella: a continuum
    arabella Ella: authenticity
    Mickorod Renard: sex
    arabella Ella: breaking free of our chains
    Darren Islar: changing all the time
    Calvino Rabeni: I've had multiple mates yes - generally not all at once :)
    arabella Ella: acceptance of what we are at the moment
    arabella Ella: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: All kind of ideals too. Then some sport comes along and cautions - "be careful of what you wish for"
    Mickorod Renard: sex is good,,but at some stage companionship may become more important
    Calvino Rabeni: I can think of no ideal I have, that if given free reign, wouldn't land me in big trouble
    arabella Ella: he he
    Calvino Rabeni: @mick, I'
    Hokon Cazalet: well, then you have a meta-ideal calvino: dont get into trouble =)
    Calvino Rabeni: ve thought, to generalize the idea of sex might be helpful
    Darren Islar: :-)
    arabella Ella: why not get into trouble?
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe ara
    Hokon Cazalet: i do :Þ
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, trouble is my middle name
    arabella Ella: yes could be fun too
    Hokon Cazalet: though i dont get caught, usually
    arabella Ella: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean, the "middle way" paths, are about accepting that we get into a little trouble all the time
    Calvino Rabeni: And managing to be balanced around it
    Darren Islar: :-) right Cal
    arabella Ella: but we cant be balanced all the time ... extremes may be fun too
    Hokon Cazalet: we need to be balanced about being balanced =)

    The discussion changes, after 1,5 hour, sometimes associations take over

    Darren Islar: it is getting later, we get into associations
    Darren Islar: and it it bedtime for this guy here
    Hokon Cazalet: aw
    Hokon Cazalet: goodnighty
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite Darren
    arabella Ella: nite Darren thanks for the chat ... take care!
    Calvino Rabeni: Goodnight then, sleep well :)
    Darren Islar: nite all :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: have a nice nite darren

    Calvino Rabeni: Not for long - if you want to handle an extreme, it's important to be able to handle its balancing extreme also
    Hokon Cazalet: goodnighty
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite Darren
    arabella Ella: nite Darren thanks for the chat ... take care!
    Calvino Rabeni: Goodnight then, sleep well :)
    Darren Islar: nit all :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: have a nice nite darren
    arabella Ella: so to conclude ... as I will soon have to move on as it is late here too
    arabella Ella: i would like to see more feminine traits in males
    Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
    arabella Ella: to see their more female side
    Hokon Cazalet: i wanna be more feminine =)
    arabella Ella: ah Hokon I like that lots :)
    Mickorod Renard: and I would like to see more feminine traits in women
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    arabella Ella: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and i´m content - is that bad ? ...
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Hokon Cazalet: contentment i would say isnt bad necessarily
    arabella Ella: not at all Bert but you are a good combination of both i find
    Bertram Jacobus: ok :-(
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    Hokon Cazalet: if one is always content, id say there's a problem
    Bertram Jacobus: ah !
    Bertram Jacobus: or it´s enlightenment
    Mickorod Renard: it means you have found something that I havnt Bert :)
    arabella Ella: you admit to your sensitive side if you may allow me to say so
    Bertram Jacobus: sure
    arabella Ella: and ... if I may ... so do Mick and Calvino
    Bertram Jacobus: i like also the variations
    arabella Ella: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: the various people, male and female
    Calvino Rabeni: do what ara ?
    Mickorod Renard: show our female bits
    arabella Ella: you too demonstrate a sensitive side to your personality
    Bertram Jacobus: and bytes ? :-)
    Mickorod Renard: my nips are great
    Calvino Rabeni: sensetive side i think you meant
    arabella Ella nods
    arabella Ella: and Hokon ... goes without saying ... of cousre
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
    arabella Ella smiles

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,better get going
    arabella Ella: now i must go as it is nearly midnight here
    Mickorod Renard: need to wash the plates
    Bertram Jacobus: here, too ;-)
    arabella Ella: nite all and thanks for interesting chat :)
    Hokon Cazalet: bye ara and mick
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks ara :)
    Hokon Cazalet: bye bert =)
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite everyone
    Bertram Jacobus: ty too ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and nighty nite to all :-)

    --BELL--

    When everybody is gone, Cal and Hokon are having an 'after chat', trying to figure out which publisher would like to bring there notes on the market :-), discussing dualism on the side (of course it is the other way around, Yup)

    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni says - i got a phone call a few minutes back, how did the last part of the session go?
    Hokon Cazalet: went nicely,
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: ara mentioned shed like to see the feminine side in men more, then we went about complimenting each other, and said bye =)
    Hokon Cazalet: winding down basically
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: yw
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I'll go soon - anything you might want to say that topic for completeness?
    Hokon Cazalet: nope
    Hokon Cazalet: i think i said all i had to think about it =)
    Hokon Cazalet: my mind is also on 3 other topics at the same time atm :Þ
    Calvino Rabeni: Funny gesture :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Hokon Cazalet: ty
    Calvino Rabeni: Multitasking?
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: sorta
    Calvino Rabeni: Same here, solving someone's networking problem :(
    Hokon Cazalet: im typing down ideas im getting, and trying to express two topics at once; then another topic here
    Hokon Cazalet: aw
    Calvino Rabeni: But I liked the conversation more :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Hokon Cazalet: i like conversations a lot
    Calvino Rabeni: Are you taking notes for helping yourself think, or write something?
    Calvino Rabeni: I kind of keep journals
    Hokon Cazalet: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: It was actually, at one point suggested as an aid, for this group
    Hokon Cazalet: also i wanna write a book someday, in maybe a decade
    Hokon Cazalet: cool =)
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe a few of us do that
    Hokon Cazalet: i used to journal alot, but havnt recently
    Hokon Cazalet: i should start it up again
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm always interested in the ideas that writers have, that try to get corralled into books
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe me too
    Hokon Cazalet: its gonna be a book on philosophy, ethics, and our purpose (telos)
    Calvino Rabeni: That's interesting - where does it "come from"?
    Calvino Rabeni: (that's american idiom, not sure if you are)
    Hokon Cazalet: yes im american =)
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean, influences, what you hope to add to it :)
    Hokon Cazalet: it comes from both my personal experiences in life, and some reading ive done of the big philosophers
    Hokon Cazalet: oh =)
    Hokon Cazalet: my big hope is to correct a fundamental error in philosophy, that i think derailed it for 400 years; also to help get ethics made into an "objective science" one day
    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds really worthwhile.
    Hokon Cazalet: i wont be able to do it myself though, ill prob be /me dies long before ethics enters into that status
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe i think so too =)
    Calvino Rabeni: What's the fundamental error?
    Hokon Cazalet: arg my gestures!
    Hokon Cazalet: dualism, that we are a disembodied spirit peering into the world
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Hokon Cazalet: dualism between idea and matter
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, so that's even more worthwhile (speaking a personal opinion)

    --BELL--

    Hokon Cazalet: and ill also mention how the solutions to dualism havent worked and why
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe cool
    Calvino Rabeni: In fact, I think about that, pretty much daily
    Hokon Cazalet: cool =)
    Hokon Cazalet: i used to be big into dualism, but recently rejected it (about a month ago); been trying to fix my thoughts
    Hokon Cazalet: i noticed a lot, even in our daily lives, proceeds from a dualistic mindset
    Calvino Rabeni: We seem kind of "stuck" in that, yes
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah id agree
    Hokon Cazalet: and philosophy keeps running into confusions and errors, yet we try and build bigger systems, instead of rejecting the fundamental premise that is flawed: dualism
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, I think
    Calvino Rabeni: How to get out of the box then?
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe =)
    Calvino Rabeni: One idea, stop trying to make bigger more perfect systems
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah
    Hokon Cazalet: id agree
    Calvino Rabeni: Another, stop trying to oversimplify everything
    Hokon Cazalet: making it bigger and better wont fix the problems
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a fundamental unspoken assumptions at work - "reality must be simple and tidy"
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: The classic ideas of Beauty reflect it, etc. etc
    Hokon Cazalet: yet if it was so simple, why havnt we deduced all of reality already?
    Calvino Rabeni: The ideas of what makes a good theory, a good "system"
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: The reluctance to give up the idea of being able to deduce or predict everything perfectly, from simple axioms
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: Descartes started that
    Hokon Cazalet: and while Rationalist philosophy is not popular, the spirit of their ideals is not
    Hokon Cazalet: er, is popular*
    Hokon Cazalet: arg
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a little ironic however, working it out
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, dualism seems to be, a practical concession to a deeper idea, a hidden monotheism
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: It is as if they want everything to spring from one Source, and then when it doesn't, it becomes necessary to concede, that some different thing must be kept apart
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: in some way then, dualism and monotheism are bedfellows
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: well monotheism has the duality of God vs. not-God
    Calvino Rabeni: Yup :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Calvino Rabeni: And the hoped for, future "objectivity" ?
    Calvino Rabeni: IT seems there are different approaches to that
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: thats another thing ive begun to notice
    Calvino Rabeni: Philosophy terms confuse me at times - for instance, "science" is essentially a transcendental philosophy
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah, philosophers redefine words
    Hokon Cazalet: and in different ways
    Calvino Rabeni: True, it takes work to try to have a meta theory that one can keep track of what they mean
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: it would be nice though, if they wrote a glossary to their writings (i know of only one philosopher who did)

    --BELL--

    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, at the very least, a glossary :)) Perhaps in the future philosphy will be "google-ized"
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Hokon Cazalet: brb potty
    Calvino Rabeni: Wikipedia might evolve to something like - when you write philosophy, do you mean "http://transcendentalism-1" or "http://transcendentalism-2" or some other thing?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe provide a way to keep track of "folk philosophy" and informal reasoning, and use it as grist for the experimental and objective process...
    Hokon Cazalet: back
    Calvino Rabeni: wb
    Hokon Cazalet: im reading the chat log
    Hokon Cazalet: ty =)
    Hokon Cazalet: i couldnt load up your links =(
    Calvino Rabeni: sorry, they aren't real - just hypothetical as illustrations
    Hokon Cazalet: oh =)
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea, is to give terms, an objective correlate in the public domain
    Hokon Cazalet: oh =)
    Hokon Cazalet: yes thatd be cool, i was even thinking in my writing, to use the color blue to denote technical terms
    Calvino Rabeni: Thus when a word is used, language in the future, will keep track whether people have agreed to "mean" the same thing
    Hokon Cazalet: and for the web version of my book(s), have them actually link to a glossary
    Hokon Cazalet: oh
    Hokon Cazalet: thats a cool idea
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Calvino Rabeni: For my own writing, i like to use a wiki combined with database - (for the online tool)
    Hokon Cazalet: =) cool
    Hokon Cazalet: what kinda stuff do you write?
    Calvino Rabeni: For contemplative writing, paper and pencil works the best - call me old-fashioned
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe thats what i use too
    Hokon Cazalet: then i tranfer the final thoughts to a word document
    Calvino Rabeni: Just notes-to-self - I don't publish - Journals, idea statements, etc.
    Hokon Cazalet: cool, me too atm
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe in 10-years (as you mentioned earlier)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!

    --BELL--

    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes I like to think things out while in phisical motion - hiking or biking
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Hokon Cazalet: i tend to pace alot when im thinking
    Hokon Cazalet: ill jog and think at the same time
    Calvino Rabeni: I can do that today - if I leave now - hope we can pick it up again later
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, running can be good for that too
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, nice chatting with you - see you later then. :)
    Hokon Cazalet: you too =)

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    Originally written on 20:48, 18 May 2010
    Great session: This is my $.02 :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB8UodV_DJg

    And also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GOWRK5ic7E
    ((BUT, recent research is that the grebes are actually serially monogamous))
    Posted 02:16, 20 May 2010
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