2010.05.19 13:00 - Bodies and thought

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. But first a personal note: I bailed out of this conversation because I realized that I was taking out frustrations from work, and couldn't make myself stop it. I'm sorry, my dears, I will try to do better next time.


    Fefonz Quan: hello Qt

    Qt Core: hi Fefonz

    Fael Illyar: Meep Qt! Meep Fef! :)

    Qt Core: Meep Fael

    Fefonz Quan: Hey (Meep?) Fael

    Fael Illyar is playful tonight.

    Fefonz Quan: you are flourishing :)

    Fael Illyar: meep! :)

    Fefonz Quan: Any new thoughts/experiences you would like to share?

    Fael Illyar: Yes, I got my hay fever under control :)

    Fael Illyar: without medicines

    Fefonz Quan: that sounds great!

    Qt Core: hi calvino

    Fefonz Quan: can you say how did you do it?

    Fael Illyar: aside from eyes feeling slightly tingly, no symtoms now :)

    Fefonz Quan: Hi calvino

    Calvino Rabeni: Hi all

    Fael Illyar: and even that is occasional.

    Fael Illyar: I wonder how to explain that... I focused on the feeling in my eyes, nose and face overall. After a moment, I found a big impulse to run from the feeling and after I refused to comply with that, the symptoms started growing less.

    Fefonz Quan: hmmm, interestung, self healing

    Fael Illyar: the next 2 days after that were a bit of an up&down with that.


    Fael Illyar: symptoms coming back and going again, until I had a rather stressful episode of feeling like I want to run, just to not feel like I was feeling.

    Fael Illyar: once that was past, things calmed down a lot

    Fael Illyar: I stopped having to focus to keep the symptoms away

    Fael Illyar: now they just tend to stay away. At times eyes get slightly tingly still though.

    Wol Euler: hello everyone

    Fael Illyar: especially if I end up brushing them with my hands.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)

    Fefonz Quan: Hey Wol!

    Calvino Rabeni: Hiya Wol

    Qt Core: Hi Wol

    Wol Euler: hello liza

    Fefonz Quan: (i just got this one now: [13:17] Play as Being 15 minute bell: Please observe 90 seconds of silence.

    Fael Illyar: and after sleeping, the eyes are surrounded with lots of dry yellowish stuff that's kind of stuck on the skin and the hair under the eyes

    Fefonz Quan: strange

    Liza Deischer: hi everyone

    Fael Illyar: chat lag

    Fael Illyar: Hi Liza :)

    Fefonz Quan: i guerss.

    Qt Core: Hi Liza

    Fefonz Quan: hi Liza

    Fael Illyar: and rubbing it off tends to make for some itchiness in my eyes

    Fael Illyar: that's one of the main things that seems changed now. I don't mind the itchiness anymore.

    Fael Illyar: and as I learned to not mind it, it started happening less and less.

    Wol Euler nods.

    Fefonz Quan: seems like you been through quite a journey here Fael

    Fael Illyar: suppose so, yes :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni chalks a point for "mind over matter" - thanks Fael

    Calvino Rabeni: I was wondering if a similar thing would work for my own allergies

    Fael Illyar: mind over body perhaps? ... Although I'm thinking mind over mind would catch the crux better.

    Wol Euler: an experiment!

    Fael Illyar: Yes, worth a try :)

    Fael Illyar: like, doing 9 second breaks focusing on how it feels :)

    Wol Euler: we need a controlled test, of course, so the first stage will be to duplicate yourself

    Fael Illyar grins at Wol.

    Liza Deischer: :_)

    Liza Deischer: mind over mind :-)

    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, there's an irish (i think) mythology of that

    Calvino Rabeni: Somewhere out there exists your "double"

    Calvino Rabeni: But were you to encounter such person ....

    Wol Euler: like magnetic monopoles?

    Fael Illyar: because, if my theory is right, allergy is mentally caused. Happens because you want to flee from the feeling of something and put that want as priority one.

    Qt Core: or matter and antimatter

    Liza Deischer: looking at yourself can be nasty sometimes :-)

    Fefonz Quan: I thought magnetic monopoles don't happen whether you mind them or not :)

    Calvino Rabeni: @fael, there is a lot to be said for that theoryh

    Calvino Rabeni: However, I think, the immune system, is the main engine to accomplish that act

    Fael Illyar: of course, but the body naturally reacts to your wants.

    Fael Illyar: even without your direct control

    Calvino Rabeni: Right

    Liza Deischer: but you can ask yourself the question if the immunesystem has been influencedin any way

    Fael Illyar: or perhaps the direct control is the want

    Fael Illyar: At least, my arm doesn't move unless I want that to happen :)

    Liza Deischer: don't know that either

    Fefonz Quan: it's good to hear you control your arms Fael!

    Wol Euler: well, if you don't count involuntary twitches and twinges

    Liza Deischer: :-)

    Wol Euler: or am I the only one who has those?

    Liza Deischer: no wol :-)

    Calvino Rabeni: Twitches and twinges are the substance of life

    Fefonz Quan: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Hopefully they more or less go where "you" want

    Wol Euler: apart from occasionally spilling something ...

    Fael Illyar: ah well, yes, suppose there are those too but... I'm wondering if those are actually literally involuntary :)


    Liza Deischer: say that to womeone who isn't able to control his moves at all

    Fael Illyar: there's a difference in wanting certain outcome and wanting something immediate.

    Calvino Rabeni: important difference yes Fael

    Fael Illyar: at least, my fingers mysteriously still manage to type without problems even if the whole body is shaking from exhaustion otherwise.

    Fefonz Quan likes the 'womeone'

    Fael Illyar: Actually, I do think the unconscious parts of our mind react to those outcome wants and translate them to immediate wants.

    Wol Euler: I'm not sure which part of me wants my leg to twitch while I'm reading a blog page

    Wol Euler: (e.g.)

    Liza Deischer: :-) @ Fonz

    Fael Illyar: Wol, perhaps that is an example of outcome want being translated into immediate want of leg twitching.

    Wol Euler: what is the outcome, do you think?

    Fael Illyar: like, if there are some mental signals being generated in your mind that you wish to keep from distracting you from reading the blog. Maybe those get redirected into moving the leg.

    Liza Deischer: I can look it in that way as you put it in the context of karma

    Wol Euler listens

    Liza Deischer: but that concept doesn't give us any direct answers to those problems

    Liza Deischer: to my opinion you can't make a connetion between twitching and the want

    Liza Deischer: too complicated for that

    Calvino Rabeni: Agree mostly, but "distracting" is from an ego-centered view. Maybe there is a part of you that just wants something different, for good reasons, and gets a little control of "the leg"

    Bleu Oleander: hi everyone

    Liza Deischer: could be, but defining it like that doesn't give any answers

    Wol Euler: hello blue Bleu :)

    Fael Illyar: perhaps you could eventually learn to not twitch your leg if you pay attention to figuring out the source of the twitching.

    Liza Deischer: hi Bleu

    Liza Deischer: because you does don't know

    Qt Core: hi Bleu

    Fefonz Quan: hi Bleu

    Fael Illyar: Hi Bleu :)

    Bleu Oleander: hi TP

    Fael Illyar: Liza, that's rather generic statement. The real answer would vary in the real cases.

    Fefonz Quan can't help his eyelids from closing, so i think i'll better be off

    Wol Euler grins.

    Fael Illyar: Good night Fef :)

    Wol Euler: 'night fef, sleep well

    Qt Core: sleep well then, Fef

    Liza Deischer: bye fonz

    Fefonz Quan: good night all, i'll post the log later.

    Liza Deischer: yes, but taking the twitching as the lead, well, it wouldn't be my thing I guess

    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_

    Fael Illyar: of course, I doubt anyone but Wol can figure it out, really :)

    Liza Deischer: probably not even her

    Wol Euler: in my specific case, sure.

    Fael Illyar: Liza, why would you be that pessimistic?

    Liza Deischer: it is not pessimism, it is a way of looking at it

    Liza Deischer: for someone who can't move at all

    Fael Illyar: To me it looks like a way that tries to tell people "don't even try, it won't work"

    Liza Deischer: it is very frustrating to find the want

    Liza Deischer: acceptance would be more helpful

    Liza Deischer: no, it is where you start

    Liza Deischer: of course there are reasons for my fatigue

    Liza Deischer: I can even point them out to you

    Liza Deischer: but it isn't doing me any good

    Liza Deischer: accepting the situation and working with it seems to be the best answer in some situations

    Liza Deischer: then you can find the way to handle it in the best way you can

    Fael Illyar: acceptance is of course needed. You can't do a thing unless you accept the current situation.

    Liza Deischer: to me that is more productive then to try to findsomething of which I don;t know if I will be able to find it

    Liza Deischer: there is 'hope' in your story

    Fael Illyar: yes, precisely.

    Fael Illyar: That's the point.


    Liza Deischer: and hope can become very frustrating if you don't find the right key

    Liza Deischer: sometimes engines don't work anymore

    Fael Illyar: your way seems to want to stomp all hope away.

    Liza Deischer: no, my way is living in the here and now

    Fael Illyar: that's how it sounded to me... I'm sure I'm not the only one.

    Calvino Rabeni: True, "engines" do fail

    Wol Euler: I think you're overreacting, Fael. Liza didn't say that it was impossible, but that it might not be possible.

    Wol Euler: there is a difference:)

    Liza Deischer: yes

    Liza Deischer: and maybe I'm overacting too, sorry

    Wol Euler smiles.

    Fael Illyar: To Wol, this is what Liza said [13:37] Liza Deischer: to my opinion you can't make a connetion between twitching and the want

    Liza Deischer: okay Fael

    Wol Euler: oh, I thought you were responding to someting else

    Liza Deischer: maybe you can Fael, but what I mean is that it isn't useful to go looking for it

    Liza Deischer: sometimes things fall into plae

    Liza Deischer: and then you will know

    Liza Deischer: sometimes they just don't

    Fael Illyar: yes, actively going looking is not likely to work. Keeping your eyes open to it can.

    Liza Deischer: right

    Fael Illyar: and to me it sounded like you were saying "don't even keep your eyes open, you won't see it"

    Qt Core: too many distraction this side of the keyboard :-) , need to go , bye

    Liza Deischer: no, wasn't what I meant

    Wol Euler: bye, qt, take care

    Liza Deischer: can't do that as meditator :-)

    Fael Illyar: Have fun Qt :)

    Liza Deischer: bye QT

    Fael Illyar smiles 'Ok, no problem then.'

    Fael Illyar: But please do take care to not be that strictly dismissive :)

    Liza Deischer: but maybe I haven't been clear on what I meant

    Fael Illyar: That's what I thought I was suggesting myself. To keep your eyes open and perhaps you will see.

    Liza Deischer: :-)

    Liza Deischer: I guess I have something now to look at a little bit closer :-)

    Fael Illyar smiles.

    Liza Deischer: But living between hope and fear isn't doing it for me anymore

    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_

    Liza Deischer: because when there is hope, there also can be fear

    Wol Euler nods.

    Liza Deischer: I think that is the deeper meaning of what I tried to say

    Fael Illyar: but Wol, what did you think of my suggestion? That perhaps the twitching comes because you wish to concentrate on the blog and there are other signals from some weaker wishes that would disturb it, so they get redirected to the leg?

    Bleu Oleander: true in life, but it's how one handles both

    Liza Deischer: so I'm not looking for answers anymore, I just try to become more aware of what is happening now

    Fael Illyar: there can be fear but there doesn't have to be.


    Calvino Rabeni: I agree with Fael's description

    Fael Illyar: hope is a marvelous thing to have, as long as you don't grab to it strongly enough to create fear.

    Liza Deischer: the antidote to hope is fear and the other way around

    Liza Deischer: grabbing is grabbing

    Wol Euler: I would apply occam's razor, and infer that the physical event probably has a physical cause

    Fael Illyar: true hope is wishing for something but being fine even if you don't end up having it.

    Wol Euler: like blood circulation being cut off by bad posture etc

    Fael Illyar: Wol, yes, like I suggested, electrical signals in the brain :)

    Wol Euler: well, I misunderstood you then, because I am describing something that is purely vegetative

    Wol Euler: no thought process of any kind anywhere

    Fael Illyar: no thought process that you presently are aware of, anyway.

    Wol Euler: in much the same way that I bleed when I cut myself whether or I notice that I have done so

    Wol Euler: and that the bleeding eventually stops without my thinking about it

    Calvino Rabeni: Could be, wol, but it's hard to know - the "ego" is pretty blind about the mind's participation in body functioning

    Fael Illyar: thinking ... you mean rational thinking I guess. Feelings are a more base form for what happens in the mind and I suppose other parts of the body.

    Calvino Rabeni: Like allergies or twitches

    Wol Euler: then my objection concerns the word "thought"

    Wol Euler: this is to me something that is conscious, pretty well by definition

    Wol Euler: thinking makes consciousness

    Wol Euler: to say that my paper cut won't bleed unless I think that it should, is to me to dilute the word "thought" until it becomes nearly useless

    Fael Illyar: there's thoughts you create, but are those really all the thoughts that you can see?

    Wol Euler: of course not. There is memory and intuition too

    Wol Euler: but surely you would acknowledge some difference between memory and your heart beating, say

    Wol Euler: I'm sorry, I am in an unhelpful mood, perhaps I should go.

    Fael Illyar: of course there's a difference :)

    Wol Euler: goodnight, take care

    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Wol

    Fael Illyar: I don't mind :)

    Liza Deischer: bye Wol

    Fael Illyar: Oh, she went fast.

    Calvino Rabeni: I thought this a great conversation, BTW

    Fael Illyar smiles.

    Fael Illyar: I'm just disappointed that the main counterpart just dropped :)

    Calvino Rabeni: ah, right

    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni considers whether able to pick up that "part"

    Calvino Rabeni: It's always been part of PaB discussions, these incomplete engagements with deep or complex questions :))

    Bleu Oleander: sorry I missed this conversation, but hard to come in in the middle .... c u all :)

    Fael Illyar: have fun Bleu :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Be well Bleu

    Fael Illyar: do read the log :)

    Liza Deischer: bye Bleu

    Bleu Oleander: I will, thanks!

    Bleu Oleander: bye


    Fael Illyar: Well, I guess my point tonight is that the mind has much more ability to affect the body than is usually acknowledged :)

    Calvino Rabeni: I'm in big agreement with that, Fael

    Fael Illyar: and thinking back to what Wol said about bad posture causing it... that's also something that's fixable through mind.

    Calvino Rabeni: Mind kind of hooks into a larger "darkness" - awareness gates a lot of what could happen

    Fael Illyar: yes... I wonder if Wol was somehow caught in thinking I'm saying mind can somehow magically solve those things.

    Fael Illyar: But this really is kind of eye opener... even if my eyes already needed to be open to be able to have an effect on my hay fever like this.

    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe wol was just resisting a generalization to be made

    Calvino Rabeni: LIke, it could work for some things and not for others

    Fael Illyar: suppose that could be it too.

    Calvino Rabeni: For example, I have a back pain that is "chronic" but am rather willing to think it able to respond to mental process that could be initiated from awareness

    Liza Deischer: huh?

    Calvino Rabeni: It's not the awareness that does the work, as I see it

    Liza Deischer: in that case mental processes can distract you from what is really going on

    Liza Deischer: which is true I think

    Liza Deischer: or can be true I mean

    Liza Deischer: everything can be a distraction

    Calvino Rabeni: As I mentioned, really, I don't give much meaning to the idea "distraction" except as a statement of ego

    Calvino Rabeni: That is, one person's distraction is another's message

    Liza Deischer: can you elaborate on that?


    Calvino Rabeni: But one function of "awareness" is as a kind of executive mediator between the complex processes of self and reality

    Calvino Rabeni: LIke the King of Thailand - can't control the politics and army directly, but has moral influence

    Calvino Rabeni: Forget that analogy if it doesn't make sense immediately :)

    Calvino Rabeni: OK, another analogy :)

    Liza Deischer: it makes sense

    Calvino Rabeni: Kids are playing, the parent is saying - you're distracting me, stop it!

    Fael Illyar: "fat chance" is the first thing that comes to mind :)

    Calvino Rabeni: The sounds from the children were not distraction to them, but to the parent

    Liza Deischer: I understand

    Calvino Rabeni: to the children they were " what I want to express"

    Calvino Rabeni: These meant as analogies for the working of our bodymind, which are not a unified machine

    Liza Deischer: hmmm, meditating to me is trying to make the distractions as little as possible

    Calvino Rabeni: but more a loose unity, with an overall unity based on many competing and counterbalancing activities

    Liza Deischer: but you don't get rid of the distractions themeselves

    Fael Illyar: yes... to the parent it was "noise that distracts me from doing what I should"

    Liza Deischer: yes as a start off

    Liza Deischer: so I agree, it is hard to say what the distraction is if there is any

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Fael, the task assumption is part of it

    Fael Illyar: the "should" assumption is it

    Calvino Rabeni: "what I should" in tension with "what is happening"

    Fael Illyar: that nothing else is acceptable.

    Fael Illyar: but I'd think the real thing there is that some part of her wants the distraction and that causes an inner conflict that's the real cause of telling the kids to be quiet

    Calvino Rabeni: There's a similar thing in psychoanalysis - that was later picked up by pop-psychology, and I think it not a useful idea overall - the idea of "resistance"

    Calvino Rabeni: Basically it meant, the patient is not doing what the therapist thought they "should"

    Calvino Rabeni: And then when through pop-psychology people became their own therapists, they took it up

    Liza Deischer: true

    Calvino Rabeni: Which kind of reinforces whatever limitations the "therapist" part has, which is likely ego-centric

    Liza Deischer: true

    Calvino Rabeni: So it becomes an inner nanny, or critic, or whatever

    Fael Illyar: I've definitely had a lot of resistance to my own "should"s on my path :)

    Calvino Rabeni: And the awareness traditions need to break up that dynamic, so they promote "acceptance"

    Liza Deischer: yes?

    Calvino Rabeni: Same here, Fael - but I think the "shoulds" can also be seen as a resistance to staying with the status quo

    Fael Illyar: the impossible to follow "should" type beliefs I'd created are the main reason for me being blind to certain things.

    Calvino Rabeni: It's like when a group of people has various partly valid perspectives, and can't agree

    Fael Illyar: I wouldn't let go of the "should" so my subconscious took the other path of not noticing when it's not followed.

    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds like an interesting observation Fael

    Fael Illyar: eventually I started to become allergic to "should"s at all.

    Fael Illyar: Even ended up with a "should not should" :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Right :)


    Calvino Rabeni: And a lot of "added on" considerations

    Liza Deischer: I'd better go

    Fael Illyar: Have fun Liza :)

    Liza Deischer: see you

    Calvino Rabeni: Be well, thanks for the conversations

    Fael Illyar: This has been a great conversation :)

    Fael Illyar: Thank you :)

    Calvino Rabeni: I liked it also :)

    Calvino Rabeni: I've got something coming up soon, so I'll go too

    Fael Illyar: Ok, have fun :)

    Calvino Rabeni: You too Fael :))

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