2010.05.20 01:00 - Anger and Babies

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino Rabeni,  Cosmicflower Ushimawa,  Qt Core and Strannik Zipper.

    Qt and I started chatting about computer computer programming:

        Qt Core: hi Zen
        Zen Arado: Hi Qt
        Zen Arado: was just rezzing:)
        Zen Arado: how are you?
        Qt Core: at home ill but nothing major, you ?
        Zen Arado: oh dear
        Zen Arado: you weren't well the last time you came for this session
        Zen Arado: I am ok
        Qt Core: yes, i have to be ill or on vacation for coming to this session :-) it is 10am for me, working hour
        Zen Arado: what kind of work do you do?
        Qt Core: i'm a programmer
        Zen Arado: ah
        Zen Arado: lots of computer people in SL
        Zen Arado: you like it?
        Qt Core: programming or meeting so many like minded people ?
        Zen Arado: programming
        Zen Arado: I'm sure you like meeting people :)
        Qt Core: oh, yes, it toke me a long time to understend why they payed me for doing it when i started working ;-)
        Zen Arado: great
        Zen Arado: don't think I would like that
        Zen Arado: I started a course about programming one time
        Zen Arado: but I found it very tedious
        Zen Arado: though I did a couple of courses on web design and liked them
        Zen Arado: one of them you had to use html and CSS
        Qt Core: :-) i find quite boring plain web design
        Qt Core: but now with all the ajax and web 2.0 part is a little funnier to do
        Zen Arado: I found it too difficult to be boring :)
        Zen Arado: but there is an artistic side to it as well
        Zen Arado: to get a nice design
        Qt Core: and that is the dificult part for me ;-)
        Zen Arado: I don;t really know what ajax or web 2 are
        Qt Core: the tecniques that one could use so single parts of the page are reloaded/changed without reloading all the page
        Qt Core: like changing a select options based on another input value
       Calvino arrived and we started discussing what I have been reading on the emotion of  anger:
      Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
        Qt Core: hi Calvino
        Zen Arado: just talking about web design Cal
        Zen Arado: of which I know little:)   


    Calvino arrives and we switch to 'Book of Not Knowing' points about anger:

       Calvino Rabeni: Hello QT, Zen
          Zen Arado: I'm still reading 'Book of not knowing'
        Zen Arado: it gets tough at the end
        Calvino Rabeni: Are you near the end?
        Zen Arado: around p 500 I think
        Zen Arado: I liked the way he deals with emotions
        Calvino Rabeni: How's that?
        Zen Arado: well, for example, anger
        Zen Arado: he makes 4 points
        Zen Arado: 1. anger is always related to the past
        Zen Arado: agree?
        Qt Core: probably
        Zen Arado: migh only be a minute in the past or years ago
        Calvino Rabeni: Well, I think it's equally about the future too
        Zen Arado: you can't be angry about something that will happen in the future
        Zen Arado: a friend said that to me too
        Zen Arado: but only if you were told about something that will happen in the future?
        Zen Arado: anyway - not so important
        Calvino Rabeni: An expectation
        Zen Arado: 2. anger is caused by being hurt
        Zen Arado: though you could be angry at someone elses mistreatment?
        Zen Arado: hi Strannik
        Strannik Zipper: greetings
        Zen Arado: have you been here before?
        Strannik Zipper: I have
        Qt Core: hi strannik
        Zen Arado: so you don't mind that what you say is recorded?
        Qt Core: don't really agree but it may depends on the definition of anger and hurt
        Strannik Zipper: not at all - I'm actually a standby guardian
        Zen Arado: ah ok sorry
        Zen Arado: yes I suppose these definitions are only guidelines
        Zen Arado: you could say that anger is mostly caused by someone hurting you some way?
        Calvino Rabeni: Did we get to (3) and (4)?
        Zen Arado: no:)
        Zen Arado: he says the hurt is caused by soem incapacity we thing we have
        Zen Arado: some*
        Zen Arado: and 4. we often lash out destructivesl to restore a sense of power again
        Zen Arado: destructively*
        Zen Arado: maybe this is a bit heavy
        Calvino Rabeni: Well that's one view of it that people can often identify with
        Calvino Rabeni: Not that I disagree, but you can see power in different ways
        Calvino Rabeni: The part about the incapacity I basically agree with
        Zen Arado: I have seen this in myself
        Calvino Rabeni: But about the power - not sure - it feels like an expression of power, but there might be no expectation of a kind of contest between two people
        Calvino Rabeni: For instance, anger can be a way to make a demand, to send a message
        Calvino Rabeni: THe meaning, the message would matter, significant more than the confrontation of power
        Calvino Rabeni: but the power backs up the message
        Calvino Rabeni: and it could be a bluff I suppose
        Zen Arado: yes sounds sensible
        Zen Arado: lots of different forms of anger
        Zen Arado: Hi Cosmic :)
        Calvino Rabeni: When I said I think it is about the future, I meant, it is a message - don'[t do that again in the future!
        Strannik Zipper: How about an injury to one's sense of identity or ego, with the anger being to resolidify that ego or identity?
        Calvino Rabeni: Welcom cosmic :))
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hello,
        Zen Arado: yes Strannik
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Thank You ;)
        Zen Arado: think that;s what he is meaning
        Calvino Rabeni: Not sure, I think anger defends boundaries primarily.
        Calvino Rabeni: Ego seems a little abstract
        Strannik Zipper: identity boundaries?
        Zen Arado: the anger response was designed to give us more energy if attacked in evolutinary terms?
        Calvino Rabeni: When you create the boundaries, for some "reason" then, you call could call that ego, But people dont so much defend ego as defend the boundaries the ego feels important about
        Strannik Zipper: energy-clarity-focus?
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, sometimes anger is also a child of sadness
        Zen Arado: though that doesn't work in martial arts?
        Strannik Zipper: unless you are a sith ;-)
        Zen Arado: yes from hurt feelings Cosmic
        Zen Arado: a sith?
        Strannik Zipper: Star Wars reference - the dark side guys
        Zen Arado: ah
        Calvino Rabeni: Hurt comes before anger. Often a sadness could be the first reaction to some hurt, wht the anger appearing as effort to a solution
        Zen Arado: yes - to restore ego
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or just sometimes its needed to "thunder"
        Zen Arado: so what should we do when angry?
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: two possibilities;
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: let it out
        Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, no, I wouldn't say that. The ego is the abstraction, the boundaries of the self are what is at stake more than that
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or explode inside
        Zen Arado: yes Cosmic - that's what Cal was saying - as a message
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its kind of paradox
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if not want to anyone get hurt, exploding inside
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on the other hand
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes it raises up as naturally
        Calvino Rabeni: Many emotions are really social - they are displays or messages meant for other humans, to change their behavior or get some help or other responses
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then its needed to hear
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: true
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on the other hand anger is also a good thing
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when its needed to thunder
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: "crashing stones"
        Zen Arado: but you could put a message strongly without anger?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes I see that also Cosmic
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, ah yes
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when saying comes straight from soul
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then others just get quiet
        Zen Arado: wb Qt
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Qt
        Qt Core: hi/rehi all
        Qt Core: i was gently but firmly logged out ;-)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: But there are some beings its not enough said "nicely" with force
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but those "need" that explode of their stones
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: negas
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, but perhaps when feeling anger, to look inside to be sure if its needed by outerwold to thunder or is it inside one-self
        Zen Arado: yes
        Qt Core: now i have to willingly logout as rl is taking over
        Qt Core: bye all then
        Zen Arado: if you see the process going on it doesn't cause you so much suffering
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Take care Qt
        Zen Arado: ok byr Qt
        Calvino Rabeni: :) Qt
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or if one is able to look one-self like outsider
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then might see those Why`s one is reacting differently in different situations
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: and one doesn't need to restore ego sense
        Calvino Rabeni: There is a sense of hope inside anger - one of its redeeming qualities
        Zen Arado: just notice hurt feeling
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
        Strannik Zipper: there are a few cases in which anger can be useful
        Zen Arado: so much anger is directed against ourselves ?
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, mostly
        Zen Arado: maybe Strannik
        Calvino Rabeni: Even in some cases anger is a healthy change from a heavier emotional state
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there is no other people who will treat One as badly as One-Self
        Calvino Rabeni: People who have given up, don't get angry
        Zen Arado: agreee Cosmic
        Strannik Zipper: anger can be transformed into clarity
        Zen Arado: ah good point Cal
        Calvino Rabeni: Agree Stran
        Zen Arado: a kind of icy calm?
        Calvino Rabeni: Hot and clear, not icy
        Zen Arado: thinking of a kind of cold fury
        Strannik Zipper: this requires awareness and skill
        Zen Arado: knd of channeling the energy of anger
        Zen Arado: ?
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, it can be used
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or it might also remind of something not remember right or needed to learn
        Calvino Rabeni: Well, assuming anger does carry within itself a feeling of incapacity, then when transformed, it is a message to oneself about that issue
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: behind the anger, there might be insight
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I think I said same as cosmic, just then
        Zen Arado: it reveals things
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yes Cal ;)   

    Change to baby talk :)

        Zen Arado: did you just have a baby Cosmic?
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Ah Yes I have
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Simo is now 2 months
        Zen Arado: congratulations:)
        Strannik Zipper: Contrats!
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: smiling widely without teeths ;)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thanks
        Zen Arado: :)
        Zen Arado: I saw a woman with a baby in SL recently
        Zen Arado: it was so cute :)
        Zen Arado: amazing
        Zen Arado: it was Fay - Bertram's girlfriend
        Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders how you get one of those in SL :)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah ;) nice I know Fay and Bert too
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, Cal
        Zen Arado: you buy them :)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: woman can give birth many ways ;)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in many distances
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there is no in spirit those little pills...
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: smiling
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, but then perhaps also need to buy one ;)
        Zen Arado: maybe I'll get one
        Zen Arado: :)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: If feel like, then You should ;)
        Zen Arado: I never had any children
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in here I think its a same
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: feel
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to have one
        Calvino Rabeni: :( Zen
        Zen Arado: an SL baby would be a lot easier to handle
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
        Calvino Rabeni: Not as messy I am sure
        Zen Arado: exactly
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
        Zen Arado: I never liked babies
        Zen Arado: lke them at about 2
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, those demands naturally much work at the beginning. Talking is much telepathically, or by feel, and with eyes. Its kind of cross to carry if having children
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: You carry it as long as You live
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when they are little ones, they demand your arms and when they are older, they demand your heart
        Zen Arado: well put Cosmic
        Strannik Zipper: When they are teenagers, they demand your wallet and your keys
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: also yes ;)
        Zen Arado: :)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but its natural demanding
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: as well
        Zen Arado: so much a mother knows without words
        Calvino Rabeni: With children, the understanding of emotion must be different, ?
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, well
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I am not sure if its different
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they are like a open little adults
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: with their personality
        Calvino Rabeni: the seem to know how to do it already


    Anger and children:

    Zen Arado: you have to deal with anger too
        Calvino Rabeni: not that they learned it
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, yes, they are very open to feelings
        Calvino Rabeni: or had a pile of distresses already
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: once I said to my son when he started to fight with another one
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I said to him "Mika Dear, who is moving your fists"
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then he started to think
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and did stop it
        Zen Arado: hmmm .....a zen koan :)
        Calvino Rabeni: zen story
        Zen Arado: and he understood it :)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they need to learn tack their feelings
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yes he did ;)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: But he needed to be told
        Zen Arado: and adults wouldn't understand :)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, not all
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: mostly because they have done nothing "wrong"
        Calvino Rabeni: Meybe there are thiings, adults need to be told, but never were
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, yes, and thats why sometimes need to thunder
        Zen Arado: nad they haven't developed a strng sense of 'I'
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if something have been for a long time with adults
        Calvino Rabeni: Observations to the contrary?
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: some learned mode
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: The I is strong in the little one
        Calvino Rabeni: But it overlaps with others
        Calvino Rabeni: the separation not so strong, not so isolated yet
        Zen Arado: but doesn't it get stronger as we get older?
        Zen Arado: maybe habit patterns too as Cosmic says
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I think in kids, they are open to them-selves
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but grown ups have forgotten them-Self
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes I think so too
        Calvino Rabeni: agree Cosmic
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and needed to refind it
        Calvino Rabeni: A sense of self is stronger as a child
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: grown ups lives by their environment
        Calvino Rabeni: not to be confused with separateness
        Zen Arado: a different self then?
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, they do know them-Selves very strongly and its been seen in them
        Zen Arado: more like true elf
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm. not different
        Zen Arado: not what we learn to protect ourselves
        Zen Arado: self-survival
        Calvino Rabeni: Ironically in the "protection" there is a loss of self
        Zen Arado: yes
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, and it comes to my mind a question what for protect
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or why
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think its more rich life when being open
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if protecting one-self from environment
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then can not see all those posibilities what life itself gives
        Zen Arado: yes - but why do I/we find that so hard?
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: my dad said to me when I move away from home "now my girl goes to cold world", I understand him about that "cold" part. But there is also huge much good things
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if being open to see
        Calvino Rabeni: @zen, a different question - HOW do i/ we find it hard ?
        Zen Arado: I think it is fear


    Ego protecting itself from pain:

    Calvino Rabeni: Your dad wanted to protect you as he would
        Zen Arado: ego protecting itself
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: Ok, but what does it feel like - that difficulty?
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, sometimes I have found "difficult" to be like a wall in front of me
        Zen Arado: scared of being hurt
        Calvino Rabeni: Or not liking the way it hurts
        Calvino Rabeni: One goes into the difficulty
        Zen Arado: scared of the pain
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, or perhaps also difficult is to let it be
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes to "bear" it
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: a little time, let it be
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so that difficult can change its form
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: finding the way
        Strannik Zipper: I've got to go - thank you all for the discussion
        Zen Arado: thanks for coming:)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Stannik, have a wonderful day
        Calvino Rabeni: And all the "pains" have many differences in their nature
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: take care
        Zen Arado: bye Starnnik
        Calvino Rabeni: YW, good to see you Strannik
        Zen Arado: in a book we are reading the suthor says he can control pain
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, perhaps there is no crazy people at all, only different kind of pain
        Zen Arado: author*
        Zen Arado: he can go to the dentist and have treatment without any anaesthetic
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think its possible to controll pain
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if training
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I dont like pain
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: (taking always anasthetics)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but on the other hand,
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I won`t let my-self be ill eighter
        Zen Arado: he says we only have sensations - we add the pain
        Zen Arado: it's a big claim
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: fiting back strongly against those viruses
        Calvino Rabeni: In that case I think he means something different with the word
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, I don`t think pain can be added
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think its belong in humanity
        Zen Arado: I think if we meditate on the body it strengthens immune system
        Zen Arado: yes
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, hmm
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: meditation
        Calvino Rabeni: In some medical conditions, it helps to take the mind off the symptoms
        Zen Arado: there's amedical illness where people don't feel pain
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do meditate while driving a car, or cleaning up the house
        Calvino Rabeni: One could meditate on something else about the body in that case
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: don`t have much time only to sit and listen silence
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think many people do meditate while fishing too, for example
        Zen Arado: yes just giving the body some attention is all
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: brains are in that same mode
        Zen Arado: I'll have to go - I have a lot to do in RL
        Zen Arado: thanks for discussion:)
        Calvino Rabeni: Oe meditate while doing many things, buying groceries or walking to somewhere
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Nice to see You Zen
        Calvino Rabeni: Or sleeing
        Zen Arado: bye
        Calvino Rabeni: Be well, Zen :)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: just a sec
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: back
        Calvino Rabeni: :)
        Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there is no meeting on this time?

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