2010.05.23 19:00 - Authenticity, Love, Sex, Mathematics

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    A session with good focus and heart, and many interesting and multi-level topics I would have loved to discuss in more depth.  God to Genes, with a stopover at Culture. (Or is it the other way around?)  Plus, somewhat randomly, an acronym theme.

    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Mitzi :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening yourself!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So I've been investigating "group theory" via online - it relates to my pet concepts

    Group Theory is a subject from mathematics, not sociology.  Calvino makes a mental note to revisit these "pets" later. 

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I can't say I've gotten very far yet though
    Calvino Rabeni: Oi :) MPTU!
    Calvino Rabeni: (no just kidding) actually that sounds interesting
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: you must translate "MPTU" ...?!?
    Calvino Rabeni: I got a good ref on Category Theory from Pema
    Calvino Rabeni: ("More Power To You")
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: oh yeah - category theory?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: aha I have just increased my acronym vocabulary.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm looking for a special book that doesn't require PHD-level motivation
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello druth
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: book on category theory?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I'll get the link 4 U in a minute
    Calvino Rabeni:  http://www.amazon.com/Conceptual-Mathematics-First-Introduction-Categories/dp/052171916X/
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Cal, here is a link to what looks like a good book on visual group theory, seems accessible. http://web.bentley.edu/empl/c/ncarter/vgt/

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi druth!
    druth Vlodovic: hey
    Calvino Rabeni: What brings you here druth? Do you know about this place?
    druth Vlodovic: sorry, was wandering :)
    Calvino Rabeni: (Think I've seen U here before, but not sure?)
    druth Vlodovic: I've been here once before
    Calvino Rabeni: We usually ask whether visitors give their OK to be recorded - the recorder in the pool posts the conversations here onto the group Wiki
    Calvino Rabeni: OK right
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: what's on your mind druth? nothing intellectual, just what's up authentically.
    druth Vlodovic: it's ok, I don't say anything publically I don't want recorded :)
    druth Vlodovic: "authentically" I'm not sure I've ever had any authentic thoughts lol
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: how about inauthentic ones - yet compelling? ha ha
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, I couldn't really say what "authentic" means, in detail
    druth Vlodovic: peace, calmness, more wishes than thoughts :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Like "not counterfeit". Not an imitation of something else.
    druth Vlodovic: "I've stolen my every thought from my ancestors and my genes."
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ah! beautiful! where do our thoughts come from anyhoo?
    Calvino Rabeni: I like that quoted statement
    Calvino Rabeni: Although I don't think necessarily, that larceny is involved.

    My thought was - taken from the "meme" idea proposed elsewhere in the session - maybe those genes and ancestors "want" the individual to have those ideas...like flowering plants "want" the birds to take their fruits and carry the seeds off somewhere.

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: LOL!!
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe modern people have a funny idea they are supposed to be "original"
    Calvino Rabeni: Could be an unrealistic idea,,, hmmm
    druth Vlodovic: it is to counter the previously held idea that community=conformity
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I think there's some perceived "pressure" to be original and unique. Kind of an "American" meme ...
    Calvino Rabeni: "MY ancestors say ..." / "My genes say ..."
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree, druth
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems a reaction to a reaction
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke, correcting things getting off-center
    Calvino Rabeni: But the sort of sad thing is, to believe that "original" idea would seem to be inviting a feeling of in-authenticity
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I read an article about the Hasidic community ... the author felt that the children were all totally expected to follow their community's path and there was a peaceful quality about that.
    Calvino Rabeni: (getting back to the earlier idea I guess)
    Calvino Rabeni: Popeye had a position on this - "I yam what I yam"
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think he got many points for that however

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: hmmm ... how do we tell if we feel authentic or not-authentic? I would suspect some feeling of discomfort or grating-ness with the perceived inauthentic.

    Flag that topic!  We're looking for the experiential correlate of what would otherwise be a rather mechanical or formal explanation.  We didn't get back to it within this session. 

    druth Vlodovic: I remember reading about a European explorer explaining writing to a native chief, after a bit the chief says "I see the use in it, but if it isn't worth remembering should it really be written down?"

    Nice point - what do we know that the native oral culture didn't, and vice versa?

    druth Vlodovic: "I yam what I yam." God said it first lol
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember that
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe it was "that I Am"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Probably Popeye never needed to agonize internally about whether he authentic or not ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, we try to remember too much. How exhausting it becomes ...
    druth Vlodovic: I suppose a thought is authentic if you have examined it, understood it, and adapted it to yourself
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: if you like it? or it feels familiar?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or if it is coherent with lots about oneself
    Calvino Rabeni: Some people "try" to be authentic
    druth Vlodovic: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder whether that is very possible or very easy to do
    druth Vlodovic: "Be spontaneous!" once said to a person it becomes impossible to do.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, like making an instructional program or practice out of it - that would be tricky
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: if you feel drawn to consider whether you are authentic, probably you feel some dissonance with some of your internal content ...
    Calvino Rabeni: "The Eightfold Path to Complete Spontanieity" :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... if you don't, the topic would seem silly. Probably Popeye would never have such problems.
    Calvino Rabeni: Some of have encountered people who have it as a goal to be "authentic" and kind of belabor it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: what if instead of "be spontaneous!" (which implies a command to do something right now) the suggestion was "allow spontaneity when it arises ... " or some such.
    druth Vlodovic: but feeling comfortable with something might just come from familiarity, or a sense of security, say a religious belief learned by rote...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, druth, that seems right ... could vary a lot by individual ...
    druth Vlodovic: I would wonder if they sought "authenticity" or the appearence of it.
    Calvino Rabeni: By Rote - means not really confluent with a person in a deep way
    Calvino Rabeni: Appearance of authenticity - like matching a pattern for the way it is supposed to look]
    Calvino Rabeni: or might include the idea of behaving certain ways
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke a do-this-if-that kind of rules?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: which would be, my definition, inauthentic? or maybe that might in fact feel comfortable or familiar to someone? and thus feel authentic
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, I'd guess comfort were independent of authenticity
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... I'm starting to think the word authentic has no real meaning! But a lot of emotional resosnance ! since we keep talking about it.
    druth Vlodovic: if it looks like a Picasso, "feels" like a Picasso, then why not call it a Picasso?
    Calvino Rabeni: Some ppl seem to believe being authentic would be uncomfortable
    Calvino Rabeni: so discomfort might be a sign of it
    Calvino Rabeni: but I don't think it's a reliable sign :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The art example is a puzzle, sure,
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think some ppl probably also believe the opposite - that being authentic would be a relief from behaving as others might expect. Ahhh ... like removing your corset.
    Calvino Rabeni: in a literal sense
    Calvino Rabeni: :) mitzl
    druth Vlodovic: "this is me."
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I yam what I yam!
    druth Vlodovic: so authentic within oneself
    druth Vlodovic: "To ones own self be true."
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps one has many layers and complexities, and can't give a simple message - but they could still be authentic?
    druth Vlodovic: to disregard one's own background is to diregard a part of oneself, do you need to accept the opinion of others in order to be true to yourself?
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: Accept doesn't mean "conform"

    Mitzi points out, we are socially embedded creatures... more on that "embedding" later.

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, for example, we present different aspects or ourselves to others, and emphasize different things in our interactions - because of our awareness and sensitivity to their characteristics - and that difference of behavior would not be inauthentic - to do otherwise would be rigid and insensitive.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say, accept, but not conform
    druth Vlodovic: nor does it mean "non-conforming"
    Calvino Rabeni: yes true :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Non-conforming is still - driven by others
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: acceptance as an emotional attitude towards another - take them in, listen to them in a comradely manner
    druth Vlodovic: being other than who you are for appearences or acceptance/anti-acceptance
    druth Vlodovic: internalize what you hear against what you believe and feel
    Calvino Rabeni: @druth, that sounds like a temptation to inauthenticity, yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: The skill of accepting others while behaving as you wish is a wonderful art ... not widely praacticed though. It should be taught in elementary school~
    Calvino Rabeni: :) well, ... taught somehow
    Calvino Rabeni: Suppose parents demonstrated being that way
    Calvino Rabeni: It's hard to analyze, hard to define, hard to put a standard on
    Calvino Rabeni: but maybe, evaluated by a subtle feeling
    Calvino Rabeni: I think a child could "absorb" that by example
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: because we have undeveloped skills of accepting others and validating them no matter what behaviors they show ...
    Calvino Rabeni: but not sure it could be made a curriculum
    druth Vlodovic: "Political correctness" is a fine ideal, but the way it is enforce often promotes capping oneself and using fear
    Calvino Rabeni: I'll buy that Mitzi, maybe there are some "basics" to it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... we think they will reject us or worse if we don't conform to what we imagine is important to them.
    Calvino Rabeni: Something we hear pretty often; I heard it today
    Calvino Rabeni: Nothing wrong with pleasing others - if it is what one "wants" to do
    druth Vlodovic: then they reject us *because* we are trying to conform to what w imagine is important to them :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So if we practice digging into all those assumptions ... usually we find our ideas are wildly inaccurate about the internal content of others' minds ... I have had that experience myself. Very humbling.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that's true Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: druth ... so true!
    Calvino Rabeni: but what to do about t is another question
    Calvino Rabeni: @druth, agree, people want the "real deal"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ask people a lot more questions about what they are thinking or feeling
    Calvino Rabeni: They don't want to be pandered to
    druth Vlodovic: I knew a Russian fellow, said "I don't trust anyone who won't get drunk with me, it means he has something to hide."
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, I've heard similar - it makes sense
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yet, sometimes people react very unexpectedly, and for some reason, we are often upset when that happens.
    druth Vlodovic: asking a lot of questions can be problematic
    Calvino Rabeni: about asking a lot of questions - we can't go around all the time looking sinecerely into people's eyes and saying "tell me what you are *really* thining"
    Calvino Rabeni: but, it could be more of a group norm, to be able to do it *sometimes*
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: so I would say it's not necessarily the case that everyone will react positively to you when you act as you think you are being authentic.
    druth Vlodovic: they wonder what your angle is :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Basically I think, we have built -in - mirror neurons or something - to make pretty good guesses
    druth Vlodovic: "tolerance" means others should be tolerant of me
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: calvino ... yes, it would require sensitivity to do it correctly ...
    druth Vlodovic: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say hunches or whatever - that we don't credit our own understanding about those things

    Intuition and empiricism together might make a happy couple, as suggested by the following exchange:

    Calvino Rabeni: Basically I'm suggesting - trust the hunches, not the fearful thought, and then make that the primary source of knowing.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well I think each of us has a mix of well-functioning mirror neurons and very-dysfunctional neuroses coming to the fore at various times.
    Calvino Rabeni: because otherwise it makes knowing - too dependent on others
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino - that would be a good investigatory practice. And record how it works.
    Calvino Rabeni: But, I think either (1) they are coded so we know the difference, or (2) can learn how to distinguish e.g. by body sensing, etc.

    druth Vlodovic: I think knowing others is largely an exercise in knowing yourself
    druth Vlodovic: "Why does this guys make me nervous?" but acknowledging that you might have a good reason, or a bad one
    Calvino Rabeni: to get more "angles" on the ideas
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Right. Because we have various biases and prides, that would distort our perceptions of others to the extent they are present
    Calvino Rabeni: Ya druth
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... why does this guy make me nervous? an invitation to check in deeper, investigate
    Calvino Rabeni: Often it is not a simple answer - like "how much" one could trust them
    Calvino Rabeni: It might be possible to sort out the more accurate parts of that assessment?
    Calvino Rabeni: And drop the fantasy parts?
    druth Vlodovic: often it is "how dangerous can this guy be?" so we are more nervous of a big guy than a small one
    Calvino Rabeni: If one knows oneself it helps
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm thinking there would always be some further benefit to sorting out different aspects ... even if it is an ongoing and slow process'
    Calvino Rabeni: All else being equal, maybe
    Calvino Rabeni: Dunno, small guys seem possible of mayhem too
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: we may be getting clues from our ancestors! and they could be on to something those genes and ancestors - but perhaps they stroke with a broad brush, too broad.
    Calvino Rabeni: And then body language - smiles or whatever
    Calvino Rabeni: Suposedly we're exquisitely sensitive to that, mostly unconsciously
    Calvino Rabeni: Makes sense, Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: a small nervous person would make me more leery than a large, calm smiling one..
    Calvino Rabeni: Unless it's an evil grin :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: What's the smiley for an evil grin? ;)
    druth Vlodovic: unfortunately dangerous people often camoflague themselves, so con men can seem much for trustworthy than someone genuinely believeing in what he is doing
    Calvino Rabeni: Some people are good at that
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Con men! A great example! Those who have uncanny skills to manipulate what most of us are so unaware of ...
    Calvino Rabeni: More common perhaps - people truly believing something that is actually wrong
    Calvino Rabeni: then we take it as truth
    Calvino Rabeni: hmm, the con men are a more interesting topic
    Calvino Rabeni: I also thought about people learning to "con themeselves"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: probably you are most vulnerable to being conned in those areas where you cling to unrealistic illusions
    druth Vlodovic: trying very hard to believe a comforting thought
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: like, you could get rich quick!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: or , things that happen betwee4n men and women where one ends up feeling taken advantage of in the end (financiallyu or emottionall)
    Calvino Rabeni: Or both do ...
    druth Vlodovic: "He would never do that!"
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening, Lucinda :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hellow Cinda!
    Calvino Rabeni: Oppps
    Calvino Rabeni: OsspI
    druth Vlodovic: lol, I was looking around for an "evenbug"
    Calvino Rabeni: Darn, I meen oops!
    Lucinda Lavender: gee
    Calvino Rabeni: The pool can be "sat" that way too
    Lucinda Lavender: nice idea...
    druth Vlodovic: I've always thought that "teenage angst" is largely fueled by the "betrayal" of strong poersonal beliefs being upset, "X would never lie to me." "My dad can do anything." etc
    Lucinda Lavender: i ded not realize that you can hop to another cushion without standing...
    Calvino Rabeni: Adulthood might confront those secure beliefs
    Calvino Rabeni: Another thing for teenage angst - it seems the adults already "have the world" so where is my place in it?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or just, all those conflicting messages about authenticity :)

    Another "topic alert":

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Cultural norms may have a strong interest in supressing the truth about certain things
    Lucinda Lavender: must go...be well...
    druth Vlodovic: cya
    Calvino Rabeni: Short but sweet Lucinda
    Lucinda Lavender: more to do than I thought round my place...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks for dropping by! come again if you can later
    Calvino Rabeni: :)) yes
    Lucinda Lavender: will try...
    Lucinda Lavender: in a bit
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, mitzi, hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: shall we crack the lid of Pandora's Box?
    Calvino Rabeni: errr... maybe not ?
    druth Vlodovic: ??
    Calvino Rabeni: What Mitzi was refering to
    Calvino Rabeni: about the social norms being about needing to hide a certain amount of true things
    druth Vlodovic: we're slowly learning
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Pandora['s box hideas a lot of elephants in the room.
    Calvino Rabeni: "Cultural norms may have a strong interest in supressing the truth about certain things"
    druth Vlodovic: many things we talk about to our kids make us nervous because our parents would be *horrified* to hear it said in front of a child (or adult in many cases)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I have an example. There's a cultural meme about true love, and soul mates that people really buy into.
    Calvino Rabeni: As we don't know how to talk about it constructively yet
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps never having tried it much
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It probably enhancessocial stability if people have those beliefs and then try to fit their exeriences into them.
    druth Vlodovic: "eyes meeting across a crowded room." and then happily ever after
    Calvino Rabeni: There seem so many such things, Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ahh, I feel mushy already ... Oops snap out of it Mitzi!
    druth Vlodovic: not usre that is one though
    Calvino Rabeni: beliefs that aren't true, but help if we act as if
    druth Vlodovic: it doesn't really enhance cultural stability, rather detracts from it
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, it happened today !
    Calvino Rabeni: My eyes met someone across a crowded room
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: what did/
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... and ...?
    druth Vlodovic: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: ... the rest of the script didn't play out :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But it did create an "opening"
    druth Vlodovic: you didn't live happily ever after?
    Calvino Rabeni: So that's what I got from it,.. the opening, not the soul mate
    Calvino Rabeni: If instant gratification isn't an expection, it may do some "good" for later
    druth Vlodovic: as a meme it does direct the energy of young people
    Calvino Rabeni: *expectation
    Calvino Rabeni: Many movies follow the script too
    druth Vlodovic: I suspect it has more to do with biology than social memes though. love is being used to sll other things
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: art imitates life - and life imitates art - in a circulart process. It wouldn't be a good meme if it didn't have some resonance in life.
    druth Vlodovic: but why sell love? who benefits?
    Calvino Rabeni: So, I saw this woman, not having seen her before, and the first image was one that I would normally "reject", but beyond that I had a fantasy that it might be possible to conect deeply. Whether or not it was true, or acted upon, etc., it seemed worthwhile to hold those 2 opposite possiblities at the same time
    druth Vlodovic: hardly "madly deeply" :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: cal, that's kind of advanced perceptually really ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: was there one perception visually and the other coming through a different channel?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "why sell love" - God needs to keep the game of life proceeding apace!
    Calvino Rabeni: seeing vs. feeling, although, I wouldn't say the feeling was message channel necessarily
    Calvino Rabeni: A better "product" than hatred or dullness ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: God and human societies both share the need for reproduction
    druth Vlodovic: ok, 1) we get a future generation 2) artists get easy scripts that sell 3) con men can use the belief to get sex
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: sex is so fundamental it is part of almost everything we do as humans.
    Calvino Rabeni: surely
    Calvino Rabeni: anything creative
    druth Vlodovic: 4) it ties up much of the energy of young people, who are traditionally the source of social unrest
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: or boring
    Calvino Rabeni: Boring?
    Calvino Rabeni: As a complement to creative perhaps
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: sex ... creative or boring ... in any event, ubiquitous!
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah
    druth Vlodovic: hmm, I sense much anger in you Mitzi, perhaps a story... ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sex motivated by boredom? or is that too simplistic?
    Calvino Rabeni: Dunno, I don't get that from U, mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: but, it might be an opportunity to tell some story :)
    Calvino Rabeni: "now that U mention it ..."
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah ... well I am a big cynic ... how fascinating to have two different perceptions of my state
    Calvino Rabeni: Three now :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I could have six or eight differerent ones just inside my own self
    Calvino Rabeni: I think humans are multiple inside - multitudinous as Whitman said
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: total of 2 + six or eight
    Calvino Rabeni: The question is which one gets "the stage" at any time
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: a story ... ? Hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: Given all your posible choices :)
    druth Vlodovic: I still wonder if there isn't something that wants to tell itself, and my voyeuristic side is itching to bother you about it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: ooh!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well I guess I think most romantic love is self-deception ...
    Calvino Rabeni: several points for druth :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... however I do have some belief in raw chemistry. That's my current interest ...
    Calvino Rabeni: We started with Math, too :)
    druth Vlodovic: sometimes I love it, sometimes not lol
    Calvino Rabeni: Math or chemistry, druth :)
    druth Vlodovic: the bell of silence
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: but recently due to varous factors and trends, no actual action!
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, tell me, do you hear a bell in the pavilion sound effects here?
    Calvino Rabeni: Because I and a friend do not - we were wondering if it is broken
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don';t believe I am angry about it, but there may be some suppressed libido that I deny.
    Calvino Rabeni: Some SL glitch.
    Calvino Rabeni: go on, Mitzi
    druth Vlodovic: I have my speaker turned off
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks D.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I did not hear the bell. I noticed last week, the bell was soft, and sometimes dalyed as well.
    druth Vlodovic: but why do you need emotional love to satisfy physical desire?
    Calvino Rabeni: I would answer - for myself - I can't separate them like that
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe others can - doesn't work for me AFAIK
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I am immature - formerly beautiful, and men throwing themselves at me. I still expect that, but too old and fat for it to be esay like that now
    Calvino Rabeni: Got to work for it now ... damn
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So I really feel it's not worth the trouble. Also I am not very nice sometimes and pretty fickle so I don't want to deceive a nice person that I would be a good partner. Waste their time.
    druth Vlodovic: brb
    Calvino Rabeni: There are plenty of fickle potential partners waiting out there :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It is another part of that "myth" - being whole and total
    Calvino Rabeni: It would make "fickle" seem like a problem
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: When I was into spiritual non-monagamy (actually I still am) I would have a little talk I would have with any potential sexual partner ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... explain my lifestyle and get their consent. Guys ... you know ... they'd be like "sure!"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: However, after a while I realized, they really felt uncofmortable with that approach - most of them did.
    Calvino Rabeni: Stereotype Alert
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes?
    Calvino Rabeni: So, "sure!" was not a foresighted response I guess
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well as a guy ... most men wanted to give it whirl.
    Calvino Rabeni: I just thought to flag the stereotype - that males would be perfectly happy to "just have sex every now and then" but the females would want something "more committed"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So I am kind of not having a place to be ... don't really want a conventional relationship
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: about the stereotype _ i was turning that on its head.
    Calvino Rabeni: WB Lucinda
    Lucinda Lavender: TY
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hey Cinda ... hot topic
    Calvino Rabeni: Hot Hot Hot :)
    Lucinda Lavender: hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmmm
    Lucinda Lavender: are you enjoying this heat?
    Calvino Rabeni: Too soon to tell, but I think so
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So now ... at least I don't feel like I am missing something ... yet, there could be more satisfaction for me somewhere inbetween the black and the white of "committed relationship" and "just friends with benefits"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I feel the same dilemma
    Calvino Rabeni: Given I'm not too "hot" on the FWB case
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... ?
    Lucinda Lavender: fwb?
    Calvino Rabeni: Friends With Benefits
    Lucinda Lavender: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: My POSSLQ, or my FWB, etc. ")
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: not too hot meaning ... you don't like that or ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Meaning ... don't like it, but frankly, not sure why
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: POSSLQ? It will be acronym learning night tonight!
    Lucinda Lavender: ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Person Of Opposite Sex Sharing Living Quarters
    Calvino Rabeni: (shacking up)
    Lucinda Lavender: ah
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: posslq as in opposition to fwb or as the same category?
    druth Vlodovic: I wonder how much of the problem is equating intimacy with romantic relationships, and "faithfullness" with monogamy
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes druth, you go girl. You are on the money exactly. IMHO (showing off my geek cred, I know a couple of acronyms!)
    Calvino Rabeni: (MM is excited about this one ... I sense some energy there)
    Calvino Rabeni: How about those "non-monogamous" intimate relationships
    Calvino Rabeni: The committed ones don't necessarily stay romantic?
    druth Vlodovic: assuming we're all western here (is this true?) we've been conditioned to want everything from a single person
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Then there's those non-intimate monogamous relationships! Those are the ones I rreally try to avoid.
    Calvino Rabeni: We are western
    druth Vlodovic: a big burden, to be responsible for some else's happiness
    Calvino Rabeni: and we are conditioned to that
    Calvino Rabeni: but, really, we've thought about it a lot by now
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It is a big burden to be responsible, all by yourself, for someone else's happiness. I refuse to be so burdened or to pretend
    druth Vlodovic: but my daughter still feels compelled to go steady with a guy before they can go out to lunch!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ha ha!
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder the thinking behind that
    druth Vlodovic: she finally agreed to go with "just a guy" to a dance, but then he, I don't know "proposed" and now they are going steady.
    druth Vlodovic: "I'll get a reputation" shame and embarrasment really
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you see that is culturally "retro"?
    druth Vlodovic: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think that this area is where all the things that run us, that we are unconscious of, really can trip us up. You really have to just throw away your authentic feelings (oops there's that word again) and play by the rules. Otherwise everybody gets confused and upset.
    Calvino Rabeni: It's coming from somewhere cultural, is my guess
    druth Vlodovic: well, maybe, I suspect it is a reaction against incresased openess in society
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: teenagers - just trying to figure it all out - I also know some teenagers and they buy into the system totally.
    Calvino Rabeni: Or I'd guess, the perceived negative things that are thought to be a result of openness
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: On the other hand (OTOH), I hear there is a college culture of "hooking up" (same as friends with benefits).
    Calvino Rabeni: It's like a culture counter-revolutionary movement of some kind?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well some have to rebell against that
    druth Vlodovic: I see growing up (or just living in a society) as a balance between fredom/responsibility and submission/rules
    druth Vlodovic: freeedom is scary
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think in general young people take their cues from their peer group. WHatever everyone else is doing becomes the norm
    Calvino Rabeni: Note article in Atlantic Monthly - Why Girls Tolerate the Hook Up Culture
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think I read that - what was the gist?
    Calvino Rabeni: But their peer group is defined in resistance to some other thing
    Calvino Rabeni: Gist of the article is, a surge of popularity in conventional romance fantasy - movies, books - as a reaction
    Calvino Rabeni: with the Hookup seen as a cost of "doing business" in the sexual power dynamics
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: there must be some gene that responds to the romantic fantasy thing!
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe a kind of meme of performance, competition, power, around the sexuality
    Calvino Rabeni: The fantasy is the release of all that
    druth Vlodovic: people want to be loved, close to others, special
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: making it "true" again
    Calvino Rabeni: YEs
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: You can be loved, close to others, special, in many ways
    Calvino Rabeni: The article mentioned also the ubiquity of pornography in the youth culture - online, mixed together with their social netwiorking courtesy of the "medium"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: doesn't have to "fit the form" to be satisfying.
    Calvino Rabeni: That's true Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: But now there's a huge number of possible "forms" being portrayed
    Calvino Rabeni: And the pressure for identity - which one to choose off the menu?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So druth, to return to my story. As a teenager dropout acid head hippie, ...
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ...a little moment of suspense there ...!! ha ha
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... I had many sexual partrners, all in service of the true love meme I suppose ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... but somewhere in there I notice that I felt more relaxed and more like myself in between flings than inside one.
    Lucinda Lavender: nodding...
    druth Vlodovic: I knew a girl who had sex specifically because it shut her down emotionally
    Lucinda Lavender: hmmm
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Later I became celibate in a monastic environment for 3 years ... I tried to move my kundalini up my spine ... didn't quite work so it stayed halfway transformed
    Calvino Rabeni: :) I hate it when that happens :)
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Geez, it's a bitch!! No wonder I have suppressed anger!
    druth Vlodovic: touch is important to people, you'll never bee touched as closely as when you're having (most kinds of) sex, so the emotional component is inherhent, aloing with trust issues, "I'm trusting you with my body"
    Calvino Rabeni: That's part of it, but sex can overwhelm the mind to the point where the touch is not experienced sensitively
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Then I got married to another ex-monastic who I really wasn't erotically bonded to. I thought I was "past all that."
    Calvino Rabeni: But, .... :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: NOT!
    Calvino Rabeni: Not!
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm on the edge of my seat about this story, BTW
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well I'm glad to entertain if not enlighten! And after that, another nonsexual LTR (long term relationship
    Lucinda Lavender: it :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Finally we both had had it and moved to an open relationship ... but we were still emotionally bonded in some funny way
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So I guess that would be an example of intimacy without sexuality
    Calvino Rabeni: Not at all Mitzi, I don't want to be enlightene
    Calvino Rabeni: d
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Just entertained then! Well anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: Or reminded :)
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, I say.
    druth Vlodovic: so what sort of things did you do in the relationship?
    Calvino Rabeni: (reminds me of Canterbury tales)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, we shared a strong interest in the intellectualization of personal growth systems.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Like the Enneagram personality system for example.
    druth Vlodovic: :) "the professor and her husband."
    Lucinda Lavender: I am tired...need to go figure out how to scan something and put it in an email...don't do that much. good job sorting all this out.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: You can read the transcript later to see how it call came out.
    druth Vlodovic: have fun Lucinda :)
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye!
    Lucinda Lavender: hope so...
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for joining us Lucinda :)
    Lucinda Lavender: you all have great abilties...wish I could form the thoughts as clearly.:)
    Calvino Rabeni: said by a gifted person, surely
    Lucinda Lavender: onward forward then...
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care :)
    Lucinda Lavender: sweet dreams
    Calvino Rabeni: You too Lucinda
    druth Vlodovic: you too :)
    Lucinda Lavender: thanks
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So we ended up in a community where spiritual non-monagamy was a required element. A lot of deep work around honesty, giving to the other without regard to ego or self, and examining held attitudes and discarding many of them.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Very refreshing.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, that's great work, if difficult
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe not all "work" (nudge :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So I found myself even further deconstructing cultural norms around sex and romance.
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: haha! I found it more work than fun most of the time. But that was true of me anyway before that.
    Calvino Rabeni: Fairly spoken
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I never really clicked in the way you are supposed to with men (esepcially since my early twenties).
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm always too aware of EVERYTHING. And not willing to pretend or ignore something that isn;t honest or right.
    druth Vlodovic: "clicked the way you're supposed to" bleh, more hardsell "true love"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Not that I'm not attracted to men! But following through just zeems so exahuthing and unlikely to yield something worthwhile.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, still affected by expectations and cultural imagery. Cinderally
    druth Vlodovic: "cinderally" ought to be in the dictionary :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Something done by Lucinda?
    druth Vlodovic: one hopes not lol
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: SO! About 10 years ago I made a deal with God. If you want me to have a relationship or a man, bring him to me on a silver platter because I am not going out there "looking." Too undignified.
    druth Vlodovic: lol
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm not kidding druth.
    druth Vlodovic: I didn't mean it that way, it just sounds so, well, I don't know, I understand the sentiment actually
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I skipped over the supposedly tantric relationship I had with a much younger man that transitioned me out of the spiritual non-monagomy situation.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It went on for over a year but we never had sex. Then he hated me and I was disillusioned with him. After many years we are close friends.
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand the sentiment, but why would God agree to it
    druth Vlodovic: sounds like a lot of frustration went on
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: a lot of frustration? ... oh, not so bad really ... I was never so affected by all that after my hippie life, ashram and marriage ... I had already been there and done that and kind of knew the territory
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, been aroudn the block!!
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: More than once :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Stargate.
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Star :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "why would God agree to it?" I didn't, excuse me, *don't* expect God to do anything!
    druth Vlodovic: I meant to get all that hatred and disillusionment
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... But, that's the only way I approach the matter these days. Saves a lot of time.
    Calvino Rabeni: Fair Mitz,
    Calvino Rabeni: I doh't *expectt* god to,
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Did I express hatred? I don't feel that ...
    Calvino Rabeni: but, were it a true wish, god would respond, otherwise refuse
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Disillusionment, yes!
    druth Vlodovic: "he hated me and I was disillusioned with him"
    Calvino Rabeni: Or resignation - or a temporary retreat ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well if "still close friends" is there, then the hatred isn't.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, yes,he hated me! Actually , it was more that he couldn't stand being around me. Deeper than that, I think he actually liked me. So let me correct that impression.
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, I understand
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Too much time together turned like to revulsion - then with less time, liking could return.
    druth Vlodovic: that's what I figured, I think about the role of frustration a lot, with the occasional result of overstating it's role :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino - "if it were a true wish ... " but, it wasn't a wish. Just a deal. Basically saying, I don't know if this is something important that I need or could benefit from or not. So, if you (God) want me to have this experience, then please bring it to me in an inmistakable manner. Otherwise, I'm done.
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, thanks Mitzi -
    Calvino Rabeni: In a way you're turning it over, I guess that can be good to
    Calvino Rabeni: *too
    Calvino Rabeni: if you are letting go of some responsibility that didn't seem - workable somehow?
    Calvino Rabeni: That's just my own guess based on my workings
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: When I try, it mostly doesn't work! So it's beneficial too in that way. Removing expectation. Then if anything arises, more free of expectation and manipullation.
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand :)
    druth Vlodovic: perhaps a better overall approach, less personal fog obscuring the people we intereact with
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So druth that's most of the story ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well I'm enjoying life quite nicely so it's a good approach for me right now anyway!
    druth Vlodovic: I'd love to stayt but I've got a big day tomorrow...
    Calvino Rabeni: Glad you could join us druth, thanks.
    druth Vlodovic: thank you very much Mitzi for sharing.
    Calvino Rabeni: Best wishes.
    druth Vlodovic: and you all for an interesting time
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Stargate Tone: have good night druth
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We've had a lifely session. Lively that is. Glad to have a chance to talk about myself. Some new perceptions always arise. Thank you for asking
    Calvino Rabeni: These are good stories to tell
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I guess mine is fairly unusual?
    Calvino Rabeni: I woldn
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Sometimes I forget. I see myself as vanilla normal in many ways.
    Calvino Rabeni: Well maybe statistically uncommon, but not unique -
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening druth!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Stargate
    Stargate Tone: Hi Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think a #5 is likely to consider self "vanilla"
    Calvino Rabeni: But mayebe we all, center the idea of being human around what is familiar
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: hmmm ... do you think of me as a "5"? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black!! LOL
    Calvino Rabeni: Speaking of self
    Calvino Rabeni: that's all
    Calvino Rabeni: but are we, both black utensils :))
    Calvino Rabeni: ?
    Calvino Rabeni: As a result, I much admire the forthright manner
    Stargate Tone: utensil to what ?
    Calvino Rabeni: You're not over there across the circle where "I" have a hard time understanding
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I consider myself a five-ish "4".
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, star it is an English idiom
    Calvino Rabeni: Understand, Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever wondered, as I have - what if I went to an island, or an asteroid, and there was my double - and no one else ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Would I do well ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: That sounds like a terrible nightmare. !! Or like a dream sequence.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We are so much ourselves - we seek relief in othernesss.
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, being complements with others helps
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, same idea
    Calvino Rabeni: It wouldn't seem a nightmare, but might be a little shocking, or mean I'd have to "dig"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: but in the scenario you describe ... actually it might be intreresting to see .. perhaps each self would start to differentiate from the other until each develops into a certain extreme version of itself.
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, there would be some differentiation
    Calvino Rabeni: but I don't think it would go to extremes
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe it would go sideways
    Calvino Rabeni: both with a new freedom
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: There was a movie with Arnold Schwartzenegger and Danny DeVito
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Sideways!
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, something outside, but different -

    Incomplete thought - something dialectic like thesis, antithesis, synthesis, but with differentiated views on the synthesis.

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think I'm ready to fade away all ... thanks for the chance to express something I rarely get a chance to.
    Calvino Rabeni: Very much appreciated and also if I may say authentic
    Calvino Rabeni: TYVM :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening Stargate ... hope to see you again!
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Dears
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Namaste.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'll turn off the recorder
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
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