2010.05.26 13:00 - The remembering and the experiencing selves

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database.

     

    Bertram Jacobus: hy wol :-)

    Fay Yedmore: hey wol;-)

    Fay Yedmore: hi Feal

    Wol Euler: hello bert, hello fay

    Fay Yedmore: Fael

    Fay Yedmore: sorry

    Bertram Jacobus: ah - fael ... hello :-)

    Fael Innovia: Hello Bert, Fay, Wol :)

    Fay Yedmore: wow wol

    Wol Euler grins

    Fay Yedmore: what a outfit again ;-)

    Bertram Jacobus: huhu agatha ;-)

    Fay Yedmore: hi agatha

    Fay Yedmore: and darren also hi ;-)

    Wol Euler: this is the toned-down version, you should have seen me ten minutes ago

    Agatha Macbeth: Huhu to you too Berti

    Agatha Macbeth: I did :)

    Wol Euler: hello again fael, aggers, darren

    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Daz

    Fael Innovia: Hi Darren :)

    Bertram Jacobus: hy darren

    Darren Islar: hi everyone

    Darren Islar: went the wrong way :_)

    Agatha Macbeth: Quick change of clothes Wol :D

    Wol Euler: you weren'T watching, then. I changed twice before settling on this

    Agatha Macbeth: You did?

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Agatha Macbeth: Just me I guess

    Darren Islar: brb

    Fay Yedmore: ok Darren

    Agatha Macbeth: Another Emerald session

    Fay Yedmore: yaay emerald rules

    Agatha Macbeth: I can never understand why it doesn't show up in your own tag

    Fael Innovia: well, one viewer 2.0 :)

    Darren Islar: b

    Wol Euler: w

    Agatha Macbeth: Who is GoC tonight? Fonz?

    Wol Euler: wednesday? yes, fef

    Agatha Macbeth nods

    Wol Euler: must be stuck in RL again

    Agatha Macbeth: Bless 'im

    Fay Yedmore: Hi Sophia

    Agatha Macbeth: Hello SSL :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everybody :)

    Darren Islar: hi Sophia

    Wol Euler: hello sharon

    Bertram Jacobus: hy sharon

    Fael Innovia: Hi Sharon :)

    Fay Yedmore: what is happening with the Fountain?

    Wol Euler clears her throat. Does anyone have a topic for this morning/afternoon/evening?

    SophiaSharon Larnia hmms to herself

    Wol Euler: I turned it down :)

    Fay Yedmore: why if i may ask?

    Wol Euler: because it gets in the way of my camera

    Fay Yedmore: ah oke

    Wol Euler: very egotistical, I know. I don't often do that

    Fay Yedmore: i though there was a break

    Agatha Macbeth: Well Yaku's box is still there

    Fay Yedmore: yes i saw too ;-)

    --BELL--

    Darren Islar: a pause comes with mist

    Wol Euler giggles

    Agatha Macbeth coughs

    Agatha Macbeth: A tad crowded up here...

    Wol Euler: come on in, the water's fine

    Fay Yedmore: am oke with that ;-)

    Fael Innovia smiles.

    SophiaSharon Larnia: how's the air up there?

    Darren Islar: some wings getting in the way :-))

    Fay Yedmore: oh bert u will get wet there ;-)

    Agatha Macbeth: Actually, I spent much of las night's session up here :)

    Bertram Jacobus: hy sharon :-)

    Fay Yedmore: here hi and dry ;-)

    Agatha Macbeth: Cal and zon were on cushions in mid air :)

    Fay Yedmore: high

    Bertram Jacobus: here low and wet :-)

    Fay Yedmore: ah

    Fay Yedmore: i prefer high

    Agatha Macbeth: Hi! :)

    Darren Islar: here dry too

    Wol Euler grins

    Agatha Macbeth: You certainly hear the bell up here

    Darren Islar: only my shirt is a bit wet

    Bertram Jacobus: for me - all is okay *indicating* ;-p

    Agatha Macbeth: Ooh wet T-shirt!

    Wol Euler: well, let me mention a (very long) blog post about SL that I recently read

    Wol Euler: http://phasinggrace.blogspot.com/201...rld-views.html

    Agatha Macbeth will read that later

    Wol Euler: she talks about a recent TED talk by Daniel Kahneman, an economist who studies happiness :)

    Wol Euler: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgRlrBl-7Yg

    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Fonzie

    Wol Euler: hello fefonz

    Fael Innovia: Hi Fef :)

    Agatha Macbeth: OMG

    Bertram Jacobus: heyy fef ! :-)

    Wol Euler: it reminded me of many discussions here

    Fay Yedmore: hi Fefonz

    Fefonz Quan: Hey all!

    Wol Euler: he talks about the difference between experience and memory

    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh?

    Agatha Macbeth nods

    Bertram Jacobus: what are the essences of it wol ? can you say some aspects of it ?

    Fefonz Quan: ah interesting topic

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Fefonz

    Bertram Jacobus: ah

    Fefonz Quan: (brb)

    Wol Euler: "In his TED talk, Daniel talks about the cognitive traps we find ourselves in when we think about our own happiness - the reluctance to admit complexity, the confusion between experience and memory (or the difference between being happy in your life versus being happy about your life) and focusing on illusion. The vehicle he uses to talk about these traps is a distinction of self he calls the Remembering Self and the Experiencing Self."

    Bertram Jacobus: there it was already ...

    Wol Euler: hhehehehe

    Bertram Jacobus: :-))

    Wol Euler: contrarian.

    Fay Yedmore: rebel bert

    Fael Innovia: waiting for his turn :)

    Agatha Macbeth: There ya go

    Bertram Jacobus: makin experiences ... :-)

    Fay Yedmore: hope u will remember it also ;-)

    Bertram Jacobus: may be because my memory is so bad ? ;-)

    Agatha Macbeth: Could be

    SophiaSharon Larnia: does it have to do with objectiity and subjectivity

    Bertram Jacobus: total different ... elements - no ? (experience and memory)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: one observed and the other observing

    Fefonz Quan: back

    Fay Yedmore: wb

    Wol Euler: indeed

    SophiaSharon Larnia: instead of a mirror reflection, it is the mirror

    Fay Yedmore: i think the can fit

    Wol Euler: Kahneman talks about memories of experience, compared to living in that experience

    Fay Yedmore: after u have experienced something it become part of your memory?

    Wol Euler: if you have a two-week holiday, and each day is wonderful, then from the point of view of what you'll remember form it, the second week was wasted

    Fefonz Quan: which daniel is it btw? (dennet, golman...)

    Wol Euler: kahneman

    Wol Euler: as in ... and tversky :)

    Fefonz Quan: ah, cool

    Wol Euler: yeah, very, let me give you the URL again in IM

    Fefonz Quan: I wonder whether the remembering self influence the experience of the experiencing self

    SophiaSharon Larnia: it seems it would

    Wol Euler nods

    Wol Euler: he suggested a second thought experiment about holidays.

    Fefonz Quan: for example, i've noticed that sometimes even when you meet close people you know, you see the memory of them no less than the real one

    Wol Euler: If you were offered a wonderful holiday, everything would be great, wonderful experience all the way through

    Wol Euler: BUT ... your memory of it would be completely *erased* onthe last day, you would not remember it at all.

    Wol Euler: Would you still want to go?

    Fefonz Quan: yes!

    Fay Yedmore: i think yes

    Fael Innovia: Yes

    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles, depends on how much weight i gained from eating all the good food

    Fay Yedmore: most be life all about memory?

    Fael Innovia: but I'd try to cheat :)

    Bertram Jacobus: some would like others not.

    Wol Euler: well, yes, I wonder.

    Wol Euler: I'm not sure that I would go.

    Fay Yedmore: i think u can enjoy every single and little memory u have and carres it?

    Fefonz Quan: in a way, most of our past times we don't remember, or remember just slightly, yet i am happy i've had them

    --BELL--

    Fael Innovia: of course, one part of my 'yes' answer is that removing memories is like putting milk back in the bottle after it's spilled.

    Agatha Macbeth: I remember virually all of mine

    SophiaSharon Larnia: so it would be an experience erased from memory, thats something very difficult to imagine, like it is not imprinted on everything, although it's hard for me to explain that.

    Fefonz Quan: (btw - fael - nice alt!)

    Wol Euler: well, you remember what you remember :)

    Wol Euler: but by definition you don't remember not remembering what you don'T remember

    Fael Innovia: but then... that also makes me wonder if the memory clearing procedure would be safe :P

    Fael Innovia: Thank you Fef :)

    Agatha Macbeth: Eh?

    Wol Euler: do you remember that you don't remember what was lying on the ground outside your office on wednesday morning last week?

    Wol Euler: but you saw it

    Fefonz Quan: maybe it is lke when you wake up of a beautiful dreaem you've had, and although you don't remember what it was, you feel great all day long

    Fael Innovia: Ah, but I do have an experience that kind of relates to this erasing memories thing.

    Agatha Macbeth: How can I remember what I don't remember?

    Darren Islar: that's the point

    Wol Euler: exactly :)

    Agatha Macbeth sighs

    Wol Euler nods to fael

    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Fefonz, would you retain the sensation of relaxation, probably not

    Fael Innovia: I remember having a thought, that I thought was interesting but almost as soon as I had it, it started disintegrating. Soon all I had of it was a vague memory of the feeling but I could no longer put to words what the idea was.

    Wol Euler: sorry, I meant fef, remembering hte feeling of hte forgotten dream

    Fefonz Quan: i would say yes sophia sharon, since sensation are not only on the cognitive level

    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods, I agree, on that point

    SophiaSharon Larnia: but what he was talking about, I suspect, was a deeper layer of memory??

    SophiaSharon Larnia: I have to read it

    Fefonz Quan: did ssl just left ubruptly?

    Wol Euler: it's a really great, thought-provoking article

    Fay Yedmore: where did agatha go?

    SophiaSharon Larnia: im here that was agatha

    Fay Yedmore: hope shes fine

    Wol Euler: ooh

    Wol Euler: poofed

    Fefonz Quan: (link to article, someone?)

    Wol Euler: http://phasinggrace.blogspot.com/201...rld-views.html

    Fefonz Quan: right, sorry sharon

    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

    Wol Euler: she went to kira

    Fefonz Quan was concentrated on the chat, and just noticed a women dissapear from the corner of the eye...)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah it relate experience and memory to SL

    Wol Euler: yep :)

    Wol Euler: I've just discovered Grace's blog, she writes very well

    Wol Euler: long and deep thoughtful articles about SL-ness

    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah ok understand.... We actually don't choose between experiences. we choose between memories of experiences. And, even when we think about the future, we don't think of our future normally as experiences. We think of our future as anticipated memories.

    Darren Islar: hmmmm, nice

    SophiaSharon Larnia: (per the article)

    Darren Islar: but you can wonder about the experience itself

    Darren Islar: is it stil there ?

    Fefonz Quan: yes, in a way when we think of the future it is mostly some fantasy land

    SophiaSharon Larnia: I was going off on a tangent, seeing it on a level of matter

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Wol Euler: the example that Kahneman gave in the video was patients having a colonoscopy

    Wol Euler: they were asked repeatedly, every N seconds, how it felt (i.e. how awful it was)

    Fefonz Quan: Darren, what bothers me is - now the memory of the experience becomes an experience by itself, and infinite recursion is aiming to swallow it all...

    Wol Euler: one might expect that the patient who had the longest procedure = the most moments of discomfort, would have the worst memory

    Wol Euler: but that didn'T happen. The memory was almost entirely dictated by what happened right at the end

    Wol Euler: if the end was unpleasant, the entire thing was viewed negatively

    Fefonz Quan nods, read about it also in another daniel's book - 'stumbling on happiness'

    Darren Islar: right

    Darren Islar: recognize that

    Wol Euler: the story that teh remembering self made about that had a bad ending, so it was a bad story

    Wol Euler: so paradoxically the way to give people a better memory is to give them a worse experience (i.e. longer) but make sure it ends well :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia wonders what the memory division would be among different personalities, optomist and pessimist

    Fefonz Quan: or maybe just make sure it went well, no matter what happend before

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm

    Fefonz Quan: /nods to Sophia

    Wol Euler: well, yes, "worse" in the case of the colonoscopy. Don't rush to get it over with, make it longer = more uncomortable

    Wol Euler: but make sure it ends well

    Darren Islar: I only read your line just now Fonz, I have experiences I don't remember but are of great influence on my life

    SophiaSharon Larnia: just make the recovery room very nice :)

    Wol Euler: right

    Darren Islar: but if you look more closely

    Darren Islar: it seems that my 'feeling' part remembered it very well

    Darren Islar: there is no image, no sounds

    --BELL--

    Darren Islar: but there is a feeling

    Fefonz Quan: or in other words: always tell me the worse news first :)

    Wol Euler: also true :) heheh

    Darren Islar: that feeling is that called experience? I always talk in experiences, hardly in memories

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Darren, that sort of what I meant by the memory being linked to matter, the emotional 'feeling' being remembered by the nervous system

    Fefonz Quan: mmhmm

    Darren Islar: no, to me it is connected to the body for sure, but it also seems to have a different flavour

    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods

    Darren Islar: an emotion to me is not a feeling

    Fael Innovia: hmmh... would that means that good experiences are ones that help one be more patient?

    Fefonz Quan: maybe

    Darren Islar: could be

    Darren Islar: or anything else, depends on the experience I suppose

    Darren Islar: but it is much harder to get to the experience

    Darren Islar: we think we know, but do we?

    Wol Euler nods

    Wol Euler: because when you talk about an experience you had last year, you are talking about a memory

    Wol Euler: necessarily so

    Darren Islar: yes

    Fefonz Quan: this resembles very much the concept of karma in buddhism - although you don't remember your previous life, the 'imprints' of what you've done and experienced follow you

    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods

    Darren Islar: right fonz

    Darren Islar: I made that connection too

    Wol Euler nods.

    Darren Islar: (in my head I mean :-))

    Fefonz Quan is not original... :(

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmmmm thinking :)))

    Bertram Jacobus tries to leave quietly, thinks he will fail with it and wishes all the best to all *wave* ...

    Wol Euler: h3heheh

    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bert :)

    Darren Islar: non of us are :-)

    Wol Euler: bye quiet bert

    Fefonz Quan: bye Bert! take care

    Darren Islar: bye Bert

    Bertram Jacobus: and ty all ! :-))

    Darren Islar: you failed :-)))

    SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe they're made of the same"stuff" :)

    Fay Yedmore will follow him and waves to all too wish u all the best and nice talk!!!! ;-)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Fay

    Darren Islar: bye Fay

    Wol Euler: bye fay, take care

    Fefonz Quan: bye fay

    Fefonz Quan: (i didn't ask, but i guess fay was not here for the first time)

    Wol Euler: yes, shes been here often

    SophiaSharon Larnia: so you dont work the experiencing self, but the remebering self

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    SophiaSharon Larnia: or drop it all :)

    Wol Euler: anohter reason for mindfulness :)

    Darren Islar: but there are wys to get closer to the experience

    Wol Euler: remember that your remembering is partial and biased

    Darren Islar: like mindfulness :-)

    Wol Euler grins.

    Darren Islar: and when the experience occurs, you could well be pretty much surprise

    Fefonz Quan: like not attaching the 'me' who is remembering to the experience

    Darren Islar: surprised

    Fefonz Quan: although it makes it hard to find your way back home :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia wonders what is remembering then?

    Wol Euler: :)

    Darren Islar: and you need to be careful, because it could well be fantasy

    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods

    Fael Innovia: oh, too late

    Fael Innovia: it was removed from the active list today

    Wol Euler: eh?

    Darren Islar: huh?

    Fael Innovia: wrong window

    Fael Innovia smiles.

    Wol Euler: hehehehe

    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles

    Darren Islar: :-)

    Fael Innovia: speaking of my last name

    Wol Euler: ah

    Fael Innovia: a week after I get it, it's no longer available for new registrations :)

    Wol Euler: heh

    Wol Euler: not a moment too soon, then

    SophiaSharon Larnia: i like it :)

    Fael Innovia: meep! :)

    Fefonz Quan: (is this the real life?...)

    Wol Euler grins

    Darren Islar: :-)

    Fael Innovia: Illyar was closed 2 months after I got it too :)

    --BELL--

    Fael Innovia: oh, Illyar was only available for 175 days.

    Fael Innovia: Innovia 504

    Fael Innovia: but both are rare :)

    Darren Islar: sometimes see someone walking around with my rl last name

    Darren Islar: feels like a Deja Vu

    Wol Euler: heh

    Wol Euler: do they look like you too?

    SophiaSharon Larnia: wow

    Darren Islar: no :-)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Fefonz Quan: yeah i had that too

    Fael Innovia smiles.

    Fefonz Quan: (even in our small community)

    Darren Islar: but there is something inside me that wants to go to them and say hello :-)

    Darren Islar: like it is family

    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles

    Wol Euler: yeah, I know htat feeling

    Darren Islar: oh that's very close by

    Fael Innovia: yep :)

    Wol Euler: but they'd probably say "second what?"

    Fefonz Quan: yes it's amazing how we drug the rules of one world to another where they are totally irelevant

    Darren Islar: yes, I always remember just in time :-)

    Fael Innovia: there's a feeling of similarity when you have the same name :)

    Darren Islar: yes, there is

    Darren Islar: but I think Fonz is right

    Fael Innovia: and last name choice does mean something, it's not totally random :)

    Darren Islar: true

    Fefonz Quan nods

    SophiaSharon Larnia: for me it kind of was, when i first rezzed

    Darren Islar: wierd for someone who doesn't like is rl last name :-)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: i didnt know i was going to stay

    Wol Euler: heh

    SophiaSharon Larnia: just the first name is one i have for yearsss

    Fael Innovia: I couldn't believe my luck registering this avatar name and seeing Innovia there as surname option the first attempt. I was going to just play the name roulette until I found a name I like.

    Wol Euler nods to Sharon.

    Fael Innovia: but was hoping there'd be something good that started with I

    Darren Islar: which are actually two names

    Wol Euler: I just realized something.

    Wol Euler: [14:01] Darren Islar: sometimes see someone walking around with my rl last name

    Darren Islar: whic is?

    Wol Euler: how did you know? there are no tags in RL

    Darren Islar: no, I mean in sl

    SophiaSharon Larnia: in sl you aw someone with your rl last name

    Wol Euler: oh, right, bah.

    Darren Islar: several times

    Wol Euler points to the unreliability of memory.

    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

    Darren Islar: :-)

    Fael Innovia: not a big percentage of people whose RL surnames are available in SL :)

    Darren Islar: no from the amount of Dutch names I see, one happens to be mine :-)

    Darren Islar: hardly see any Dutch names

    Fael Innovia: there are a few Finnish names too... not sure if any are still available though

    Fael Innovia: but I'm surprised that the total amount of surnames that have been available is over 10000

    Wol Euler: heh

    Fefonz Quan: good night all, going to sleep

    Wol Euler: bye fef, sweet dreams

    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Fefonz

    Darren Islar: by fonz

    Fefonz Quan: it is a great conversation though! _/!\_

    Fael Innovia: good night Fef :)

    Darren Islar: but 10000 of all the names there are in about the whole world

    Darren Islar: that is not much I guess

    Darren Islar: though it is an incredable long list :-)

    Fael Innovia: not that many :)

    Fael Innovia: over a close to a decade

    Fael Innovia: that's just a few names per day

    SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm off too, bye everyone :)

    Fael Innovia: have fun Sharon :)

    Wol Euler: bye sharon, take care

    Darren Islar: by Sharon

    SophiaSharon Larnia: waves

    Wol Euler: http://ariblackthorne.com/post/63524...as-hell-though

    Darren Islar: it's not symmetrie, I just like to sit next to you :-))

    Wol Euler: awww <3

    Fael Innovia smiles.

    --BELL--

    Darren Islar: great :-)

    Wol Euler giggles

    Fael Innovia: Well, enough for me today :)

    Fael Innovia: Have fun Wol, Darren :)

    Wol Euler: bye fael, nice to meet you

    Darren Islar: by Fael

    Darren Islar: nice to meet you too :-)

    Wol Euler: I should be going too, I feel the need of some more sleep

    Darren Islar: bye Wol

    Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care, be happy

    Darren Islar: sleep well

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