2010.05.28 19:00 - Recognition

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.


    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pema
    stevenaia Michinaga: thought I'd pick up the log since I was nearby
    Pema Pera: hi there Steve!
    Pema Pera: great, thanks a lot!
    stevenaia Michinaga: I see you have your own group
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pema Pera: Hopefully we'll find a more permanent goc here soon
    Pema Pera: group?
    stevenaia Michinaga: last weeek no one joined me
    Pema Pera: at this time you mean?
    stevenaia Michinaga: makes for a quiet evening session
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pema Pera: yes :)
    Pema Pera: and my "own group" what did you mean?
    stevenaia Michinaga: when you arrived you had Piet Hut shown as your group
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Pema Pera: yes, that is for MICA
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Pema Pera: it's not my own group, but my own role
    Pema Pera: we had a professional seminar this morning
    Pema Pera: and without our RL names, we have no idea whom we are talking to
    Pema Pera: so we created as many roles as there were colleagues :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: SL names can be confusing with RL people around, personally I am much happier when everyone wears a name tag, even at Family events
    stevenaia Michinaga: in RL
    Pema Pera: yes, if the group gets too large, and if you don't see each other often enough, you wind up in that kind of twilight zone, where you sort-of recognize somebody
    Pema Pera: but are afraid to say too much, in case you are wrong
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pema Pera: yet you are embarrassed to ask your distant cousin "who are you"
    Pema Pera: and addressing them with "dear distant cousin" won't do either :-)
    Pema Pera: or "dear vaguely remembered friend"
    stevenaia Michinaga: interestingly enough, since they know this about me, they come to me and introduce themselves as cousin....who? knowing I haven;t a cue
    Pema Pera: how convenient!
    Pema Pera: do you have more difficulty than most people remembering faces?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I will remember them but not from where, or worst, they will remember me and I ahven;t a clue who they are
    Pema Pera: :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I just tell peopel to keep intoducing themselves to me until I know them by name
    stevenaia Michinaga: then they don;t take it persoanlly
    Pema Pera: I know the feeling . . . in my case exacerbated by traveling so much, and in quite different circles: astrophysicists, philosophers, cognitive scientists, etc
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pema Pera: when I meet somebody on the street, in New York City, as occasionally happens, that is the worst case, no context!
    stevenaia Michinaga: I enjoyed the discussion about Wu Wie with Wol, this applies to "not knowing who"
    Pema Pera: and when somebody happily walks up to you saying "hey Piet how great to see you again, what a surprise" then it's a bit painful to give them the extra surprise that I have no clue who they are . . . .
    stevenaia Michinaga: and just accepting that you don;t
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    stevenaia Michinaga: if they know you, they will understand
    Pema Pera: very Christian, treating everybody as "thy neighbor"
    stevenaia Michinaga: it works for me
    Pema Pera: good for you!
    Pema Pera: but seriously, in Germany they did a study which showed that more than 10% of the people had great difficulty recognizing faces
    Pema Pera: but they typically didn't know that themselves: they had developed mechanisms around it
    stevenaia Michinaga: and names?
    Pema Pera: like relying on voice, ways of walking, other aspects
    Pema Pera: that I don't know, about names
    Pema Pera: it may or may not be related
    stevenaia Michinaga: mostly context, for me
    Pema Pera: but this non-face-recognizing at least seems to be genetic
    Pema Pera: one of those things: unless it gets a name and is recognized as some disorder, whole hords of people can be treated as if they are "just lazy" or "just forgetful"
    stevenaia Michinaga: since it's a collaboitive effort of sorts, some may jsut find it easier to allow the other person to recognize them
    stevenaia Michinaga: my SR year in college I had long hair and a beard like yours
    Pema Pera: so did I, in RL :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: between semester I cut it all short removed beard and changesd glasses
    stevenaia Michinaga: no one regonized me until O spoke
    stevenaia Michinaga: I
    Pema Pera: yes, I've seen that happen with others
    stevenaia Michinaga: even stanfing in front of them with a mutual friend
    Pema Pera: who changed their hair dramatically -- until the voice comes on, you've no idea
    stevenaia Michinaga: it was very comical, lost many friends that semester
    Pema Pera: and then you wonder why this person stole the voice of the other person you knew
    Pema Pera: even shaving a beard will do, without further change of hair
    stevenaia Michinaga: even children get confused, when my cousin and uncle stayed over , my father and his brother both had the same hair and bread... my uncles son went up to his father and asked, Uncle Murray, why are you in bed with my mommy, when it was in fact his father and mother
    Pema Pera: seriously? not a joke?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, we all laughed
    Pema Pera: how old was the child?
    stevenaia Michinaga: about 6 I think
    Pema Pera: ah, that makes it more understandable :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pema Pera: it reminds me of an event in my middle school, age 13 or so, where half the students came from the country side, me included
    Pema Pera: I bicycled every day, it was about 7 miles each direction
    Pema Pera: but some came from further, and had to take the bus
    Pema Pera: there were two from a town far away, a boy and a girl, and occasionally one would miss a bus
    Pema Pera: then one day both of them came into class half an hour late, having both overslept
    Pema Pera: but the funny thing was
    Pema Pera: the boy said, when they entered the class "we overslept"
    Pema Pera: and the whole class fell on the floor with laughter
    Pema Pera: and still he had no idea what happened
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Pema Pera: the poor girl turne fiery red
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: I don't know whether somebody explained it to him later . . . .
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was thinking about Eos's comments when explaining Wu Wie, which were nicely put, yet I still sences that some people didn;t understand, yet I find it a very natural state, haveing only realized it had a name since coming here
    Pema Pera: and there are so many many levels
    Pema Pera: you can get a bit of a sense, and then more and then more . . . it keeps deepening
    Pema Pera: like "appreciating wine" -- sure, you can appreciate wine, rather quickly, but then you can get further and further and further
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I ahve only scratched the surface of understanding, but tome thing you do without understanding
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I do the same with scotch, the subtilties becoem clearer with more sampling
    Pema Pera: yes, wu-wei is natural, but we are trained in our culture to deviate from it
    Pema Pera: for various good reasons: it's important to fit into society well enough to function
    Pema Pera: but after that works, it's good to return to wu-wei again
    stevenaia Michinaga: why do you feel wu wie wei not be a good fit
    Pema Pera: oh, wu-wei can be a good fit, but when children learn to acquire a functioning self, the emphasis is typically upon learning to fend for themselves to some extent
    stevenaia Michinaga: or is it more the level of maturity it take to apply it
    Pema Pera: once they've learned to work with a srong enough self, they can then more and more explore a shift in emphasis away from the self
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Pema Pera: in principle it *might* be possible to learn both at the same time: a healthy workable way of showing your self, and yet not be taken in by it, but that must be really hard
    Pema Pera: it's a challenge for educators
    Pema Pera: and parents and anyone around children
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, like teaching love by reading about it
    stevenaia Michinaga: it falls short
    Pema Pera: nice example!
    Pema Pera: well, I'll have to be off to lunch
    stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy
    Pema Pera: nice talking with you, Steve!
    Pema Pera: it's interesting, isn't it, how conversations have such different dynamics
    Pema Pera: with two or four or ten or fifteen people
    Pema Pera: they are all interesting in their own way, but different
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Pema Pera: can't decide which ones I like best; they're all fun
    stevenaia Michinaga: have the theme sessons begin with two always made sence to me
    stevenaia Michinaga: then the all join in
    Pema Pera: yes, to get more coherent

    Dao Yheng joins us, Pema Pera departs

    Pema Pera: Hi Dao!
    Pema Pera: take care, bfn!
    stevenaia Michinaga: ok, thx
    stevenaia Michinaga: ...Dao dissappears, Pema signs off
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Dao
    Dao Yheng: Nice to meet you again :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I have seen you around the village but not many times here
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice to sit with you again
    Dao Yheng: you too!
    Dao Yheng: how is the PaB practice for you these days? (I ask as someone who never started :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I practice infrequesntly and randomely , mostly at the sessions I attend here,
    stevenaia Michinaga: but as I ahve been comming here for over 2 years, I can say it is going well
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Dao Yheng: would you like to say more about its impact?
    stevenaia Michinaga: there is much to be learned from the diversity of thegroup
    Dao Yheng: indeed! just hearing a range of views can help loosen up one's own!
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, and even understand tyour own view better
    Dao Yheng: yes
    Dao Yheng: And I do like the fifteen minute pauses -- wonder how work meetings would go if we all did that :)
    Dao Yheng: the silence also another point of view, in a way
    stevenaia Michinaga: I know of people who tried to do 9 second meditations at meetings
    Dao Yheng: oh, and... ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think it took a bit more cocentration to pause
    stevenaia Michinaga: concentration
    stevenaia Michinaga: ina group setting
    stevenaia Michinaga: I usually do it alone
    Dao Yheng: ah, interesting -- so perhaps the virtual context is a help in this respect?
    stevenaia Michinaga: some people keep a blog of what arises during those 9 seconds
    stevenaia Michinaga: eaiser to do here then in RL
    Dao Yheng: a level of privacy that provides extra sense of security or comfort, maybe?
    stevenaia Michinaga: or an oppurtunity to quietly comtemplate your thoughts after you ahve them
    Dao Yheng: hmm, yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: it the retreats, in a grop setting it alls those thoughts to be voices in the closeness of the group
    stevenaia Michinaga: *group
    stevenaia Michinaga: *It allows
    stevenaia Michinaga: sorry about my bpoor typing
    Dao Yheng: :) no prob!
    Dao Yheng: a gift to other poor typers!
    stevenaia Michinaga: what aprt of the world are you from in RL if I may ask
    Dao Yheng: I'm in New York
    Dao Yheng: You?
    stevenaia Michinaga: PA
    Dao Yheng: Pretty close!
    stevenaia Michinaga: close to NJ
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I go the city often
    Dao Yheng: Isn't it funny -- helps to know where you are somehow -- like, to the left or right or south or something :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, is there a state or ocean between us
    Dao Yheng: :) We're imaginative creatures!
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, but bits of reality help
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Paradise
    Dao Yheng: reality - based imagination :)

    Paradise Tennant joins us

    Paradise Tennant: hiya steve ..dao :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Dao Yheng: Hi Paradise!
    stevenaia Michinaga: soI find that constaints focus imagination/creativity sometimes
    Dao Yheng: OK, one last question -- where is the stress placed on Stevenaia?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hah,
    stevenaia Michinaga: there are only small one that reside somewhere, usually residing in external constraints affecting me
    stevenaia Michinaga: small ones, rather
    stevenaia Michinaga: so if you said I ahve only 4 seconds to do a 9 second meditation, I may have stresss from that
    Dao Yheng: Yes, that sounds tough -- have you found a way around it?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, understand that the 4 seconds you offer are your constraints , they are only mine when I accept them... the choice is solely mine
    Dao Yheng: Ah -- very responsible
    stevenaia Michinaga: and a very interesting question :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles we create stress with thought .. almost always .. it is our choice
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think it is only when you undestand it is your choice can you let it go
    Paradise Tennant: nods yes
    Dao Yheng: Sometimes we pick up signals of stress from our environment -- from the people around us too
    Dao Yheng: we're biologically wired to do so
    stevenaia Michinaga: and they pick up signals of lack of stress from their surroundings too, it also applies to happyness in a group
    Paradise Tennant: yes sadness ..joy too .. are like waves through humanity :) someone smiling makes you smile .. paradise smiles broadly!
    Dao Yheng: hmm, yes!
    stevenaia Michinaga: contagious sence of well being
    Paradise Tennant: or crankiness
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Paradise Tennant: well .I think I will excuse myself if I may ..
    Dao Yheng: Me too
    Paradise Tennant: going to a spot of virtual gardening and then trudge off to bed :)
    Paradise Tennant: nice to see you both ..thanks :)
    Dao Yheng: Nice to see you too!
    Dao Yheng: Good evening!
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye
    Paradise Tennant: byeeeeeeeeeeeee
    stevenaia Michinaga: I ahve RL laundry to do,
    stevenaia Michinaga: I may come over and watch later
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice treehouse
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Paradise Tennant: ok :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: after I post the log
    Paradise Tennant: it is a open garden steve you are always welcome
    Paradise Tennant: blue likes company !
    stevenaia Michinaga: thx
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