2010.05.30 13:00 - Silence; Enlightenment

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Liza Deischer. The comments are by Liza Deischer.

    The session starts of with being silent, after that silence itself becoming the first topic. Learning and Enlightenment being the second topic we addressed this session, starting with the question if Enlightenment is the end of learning

    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Liza
    Liza Deischer: hi Agatha


    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
    Liza Deischer: hi Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: just saying hello until i move on to another event
    Liza Deischer: okay :-)
    Agatha Macbeth smiles
    Liza Deischer: is that why you're not going to sit down ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Are you Alfred in disguise?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thats because i don´t rezz
    Liza Deischer: who is?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: alfred kelberry
    Agatha Macbeth: Mr Standup
    Liza Deischer: well, he can't hide his nametag :-)
    Liza Deischer: :-)


    Yakuzza Lethecus: was bedeutet dein tag aga ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh, something Japanese
    Agatha Macbeth: Yin-yang I think
    Liza Deischer: you mean, that's why it is so quiet here
    Agatha Macbeth: Could be
    Liza Deischer: geen I tjing vandaag (who is going to understand that Liza?)
    arabella Ella: Hiya!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi ara
    Liza Deischer: hi Ara
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Ara :)

    Having sit for quite some time quietly next to each other, silence seem to be a good topic to start with

    Liza Deischer: how do you feel about silence Ara?
    Liza Deischer: we seem to do an extended practice in it today :-)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am going over to a science event now
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care everyone
    arabella Ella: bye Yaku
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Yaku
    Liza Deischer: bye Yaku, have fun :-)

    arabella Ella: i personally have an ambivilent attitude to silence
    arabella Ella: mainly as i come from a noisy part of the world :)
    arabella Ella: but i need silence when i need to focus or think
    Liza Deischer: then being silent is tough?
    Liza Deischer: yes me too
    arabella Ella: depends
    arabella Ella: i need my thinking time and that has to be done in silence
    Liza Deischer: on a daily bases you mean
    arabella Ella: if not every day, often enough
    arabella Ella: and often while driving for example


    Liza Deischer: something like letting the day glide through your hands
    Liza Deischer: fingers

    Agatha Macbeth: Think I'll leave you two to it then. bye for now
    arabella Ella: bye Ags
    Liza Deischer: bye Agatha

    arabella Ella: what about yourself and silence Liza?
    Liza Deischer: I like silence
    Liza Deischer: and I need it every day
    Liza Deischer: or at least to be alone for several hours
    arabella Ella: yes i know what you mean
    Liza Deischer: but as everything it also can get in the way
    arabella Ella: in what sense can it get in the way?
    Liza Deischer: when I'm restless for instance
    Liza Deischer: or as yesterday, when we started of silent as today, then the group started growing
    arabella Ella: ah i see ... although I was not here yesterday as i was out
    Liza Deischer: it is almost like you feel the business in the heads of others
    Liza Deischer: i mean busy-ness
    Liza Deischer: but maybe that is only an assumption
    arabella Ella: yes i think i can understand
    arabella Ella: when there are many different threads of chat
    Liza Deischer: I mean when everybody is silent
    arabella Ella: when chat comes through so fast it is at times difficult to keep up with it
    Liza Deischer: different threads make me restless anyway :-))
    arabella Ella: oh you feel the busy-ness in the silence?
    Liza Deischer: it feels that way
    arabella Ella: mmmmmmmm
    arabella Ella: i dont think i every felt that
    arabella Ella: do you mean the feeling you may get that they are all IM-ing with others but not chatting here?
    Liza Deischer: no
    Liza Deischer: I never have that feeling, so some are
    Liza Deischer: some are intensely looking in there invent :-)
    arabella Ella: yes maybe
    Liza Deischer: but everybody brings along his or her own 'things'
    arabella Ella: i sometimes get the feeling that others are either in IM or using other programs on their PC while leaving their avi 'parked' here
    Liza Deischer: it happens
    arabella Ella: but part of the beauty of SL is the freedom it allows each of us to do as we please with hardly any pressures
    Liza Deischer: well, it is not bothering me
    arabella Ella: it does not bother me either
    Liza Deischer: except when I talk to someone and they don't talk back :-)
    Liza Deischer: not realizing they could be in IM
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    arabella Ella: or maybe afk
    arabella Ella: (away from keyboard)
    Liza Deischer: yes, I know :-)
    Liza Deischer: I don't think that happens much
    arabella Ella: i have seen it happen on other sims ... not so much here
    arabella Ella: but this is simply an observation and not to be taken as critical in any way at all
    Liza Deischer: i came to this bar
    Liza Deischer: packed with people
    arabella Ella: yes
    Liza Deischer: complete silence
    Liza Deischer: only talking through IM
    Liza Deischer: very strange
    arabella Ella: yes very strange i agree
    Liza Deischer: THEN I don't feel comfortable
    arabella Ella: yes ... unless you too would be in IM with 3 or 4 other people?
    Liza Deischer: well, you know in bars, people are always in IM
    Liza Deischer: but only in IM?
    Liza Deischer: not even 'hi'


    arabella Ella: yes ... makes one feel not too welcome as then you get the feeling that they do not welcome new ppl
    Liza Deischer: right

    Bertram Jacobus: heyy - small "group" ! :-)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Bert!
    Liza Deischer: hi Bert :-)
    arabella Ella: how are you tonight?

    Bertram Jacobus: didn´t want to disturb your talk plz
    Liza Deischer: here people are in IM too, but also talking, so thats different
    Liza Deischer: don't worry :-)
    arabella Ella: yes it is different here generally speaking
    arabella Ella: we are discussing silence Bert and how welcoming or not other groups may be on SL
    arabella Ella: how silence can be welcoming or weird

    With the arrival of Betram we start talking about looks and 'growing up' in sl, finally exploring what 'being green' means in different languages

    Bertram Jacobus: and sry but whaow - you look nice liza - what did you do ? ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ah i see ...
    Liza Deischer: new skin
    Liza Deischer: and thanks :-)
    arabella Ella takes a closer look at Liza ... :)
    Bertram Jacobus: new skin new clothes new hair ? ;-)
    Liza Deischer: no, just new skin
    arabella Ella: cool
    Bertram Jacobus: okay - looks really great
    arabella Ella: yes it does
    Liza Deischer: thanks
    Liza Deischer: I feel more serious now :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - more serious ? what was the feeling before ? ;-)
    arabella Ella: he he .... why 'more serious'?
    Liza Deischer: I look so serious, almost like I grew-up :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: as a 212 days old sl avatar you mean ? ;-)
    arabella Ella: he he
    Liza Deischer: alsof ik groentje af ben hier
    Liza Deischer: yep :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: good - so i understand (!) ... :-)
    Liza Deischer: sorry, that was Dutch
    arabella Ella: am trying to decipher it ... he he
    Liza Deischer: I said, like I'm not a child here anymore
    Liza Deischer: well it is an expression, so hard to decipher I'm afraid
    Bertram Jacobus: ma gf here, fay, also is dutch , so ... :-)
    arabella Ella: ah
    Liza Deischer: okay
    Bertram Jacobus: so ... how can be silence ... in sl , in groups or communication here ?
    Liza Deischer: green behind the ears, is that an english expression?
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - in german we say that too !
    Bertram Jacobus: "noch grün hinter den ohren" :o)
    arabella Ella: i am not sure ... sometimes if you are 'green' at doing something you are new at it
    Liza Deischer: wel it is slightly different, but that comes most near
    Liza Deischer: litterally it means: not being green anymore
    arabella Ella: or english also has 'green with envy'
    arabella Ella: ah ok i see
    Liza Deischer: or not being a little green one anymore
    arabella Ella: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: no greenhorn anymore
    Liza Deischer: is that the english expression?
    Bertram Jacobus: i would say so - ara ? ;-)
    arabella Ella: i dont think so but i am not sure as there are some expressions which may be new to me
    Liza Deischer: green with envy, we have something like that in Dutch two
    Bertram Jacobus: languages ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and in german ... "grün vor neid" - same
    arabella Ella nods
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: groen zien van jaloezie

    Ara is bringing us back to the topic of today: silence

    arabella Ella: and back to silence ... how do you feel about silence here on SL Bert or in your everyday life?
    Bertram Jacobus: so ... what did you find out about the silence in sl ? ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ah !
    Bertram Jacobus: first : i appreciate it - very much !
    arabella Ella nods
    Bertram Jacobus: second : if too much - i have to see, how to handle / manage that . but that happens very seldom ... hm
    Liza Deischer: we start to talk about it because we had quite a bit of silence today in the group
    Liza Deischer: well, group being a big word
    Bertram Jacobus: what i don´t like on the net i admit - is, when people are very unaware or too distracted - it´s simply not my style of communicating ...
    arabella Ella: two others were here with Liza before I arrived
    Bertram Jacobus: ah okay - new people or ones we all know ? :-)
    arabella Ella: and yes when people do not respond i get the feeling they may be distracted altho it is difficult to tell what really is the case
    arabella Ella: people we know
    arabella Ella: Aga and Yaku
    Liza Deischer: well in rl you know when somebody is distracted
    Liza Deischer: here you never can tell
    Liza Deischer: that is more the problem to me then the distraction of people themselves
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but ... with some time you also here can get to know (right expression?) people ...


    arabella Ella: could it not teach you to be more flexible with judgement or assumptions Liza?
    Liza Deischer: because I always try to give my full attention at somehow I think others do that too
    Liza Deischer: oh that is not the problem, I just don't realize it
    Liza Deischer: that people do that is in itself okay with me

    a short intermezzo about breaking the silence of the bell :)

    Bertram Jacobus: (sshh?) ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: i see ...
    Liza Deischer: but because I don't realize it, I don anticipate on it
    Liza Deischer: sorry Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: sry for me having said that ...
    Liza Deischer: no, I shouldn't have been talking
    arabella Ella: i'm sorry i broke the silence first :(

    back to the topic again, which changed to people who don't respond in sl, being in IM, or having a look in their invent. Sometimes forgetting about it and learning slowly how communication works in sl and why people sometimes don't respond, getting to the topic of learning

    Liza Deischer: and the strange thing is, I don't seem to get that :-))
    Bertram Jacobus: some of us ... like the silence as we can notice ... i´m happy about that (!) ;-)
    Liza Deischer: me too
    arabella Ella: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: i also had to learn, that not all people are like me ... and
    Bertram Jacobus: again and again have to realize that in certain aspects (!) ...
    Liza Deischer: yes, I realize that, but don't realize it all the time so to speak :-)
    arabella Ella: yes it is a difficult lesson to learn and i must admit i too am guilty of relapsing into forgetting the lesson
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, that is quite normal
    Liza Deischer: yes, I think so too Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: but even with the spiritual path ... the teachings say
    Liza Deischer: and Ara
    Bertram Jacobus: it would go that way : first one experiences a bit, then a bit more and then step by step ...
    Liza Deischer: I think that if I stay here a bit longer I will finally get it yes :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: more and more - so - that may be simply a nearly so to say law of nature how developing goes
    Liza Deischer: that is true
    arabella Ella: yes but i think we also need to understand and accept the issue of the 'journey' never ending ... there is always more to learn
    Liza Deischer: there is even a well known curve about that phenomenon
    arabella Ella: (and not academically i mean but in life in general)
    Liza Deischer: sure
    Bertram Jacobus: yes : this group is also very helpful to me - and can support many aspects i think ... what we need, what we are searching for - a group for seekers (?) (at lest also) :o)
    arabella Ella: nice way of putting it Bert :)

    Is there an end to learning, like as in enlightenment?

    Bertram Jacobus: and / "but" ara : i think, it may be possible, that one so to say stage of learning may have an end - the way to enlightenment. what not incudes the infinity of relative things ;-)
    Liza Deischer: I'm not sure Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: about what not especially plz liza ?
    Liza Deischer: if enlightenment is the same thing as the end of the road
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. my impression is : in a way yes and in another no
    Liza Deischer: that learning may have an end
    arabella Ella: i have my doubts there too Bert
    arabella Ella: i dont think we ever accept that we have reached the end of the road
    arabella Ella: we desire to do so ... but how can we do so? I don't know
    Bertram Jacobus: i hope at least that perfection and complete fullfilment is possible. but that does not deny the possibility to go on with living and learning with the relative aspects
    Liza Deischer: I don't know either, but there are people who reached enlightenment or even have become a Buddha
    Liza Deischer: I understand what you mean Bert, and maybe you are right, really don't know
    Bertram Jacobus: when that is true - my impressions of exactly that and other fulfillments are like written ... hm
    Liza Deischer: sorry, can you explain that a bit more?
    arabella Ella listens ...
    Bertram Jacobus: what else should these descriptions mean ? don´t they tell, it would be some fulfillment - reaching a goal and such ?


    Liza Deischer: it is reaching something, but I don't know if it is fulfillment
    Bertram Jacobus: i have also in mind about "that" :
    Bertram Jacobus: we can talk a lot about it and we can try to practice ...
    Liza Deischer: like the number zero doesn't exist, so might fulfillment not exist
    arabella Ella: yes i think we reach a number of sub-goals but if there is perfection or fulfillment it would only be available to very few great 'beings'
    Bertram Jacobus: for me for example, the idea of "playing enlightened" helps very much and is really nice and enjoyable at the moment / these days (!) ... ;-)
    Liza Deischer: yes, let's see what comes up on the horizon
    Bertram Jacobus: but i think always : we shouldn´t push "that" so far away (!)
    Liza Deischer: true, but we mostly think in absolutes
    Liza Deischer: not in glimpses
    Liza Deischer: not in every day life
    arabella Ella: yes of course ... we could always work towards it and not eliminate it as you say Bert
    arabella Ella: to be human is to hope and to desire and to strive for better things
    Bertram Jacobus: and if we can accept, that may be some relativity transcending "exists", some "absolute" and such ... then this fulfillment should be possible - no ?
    Liza Deischer: no
    Bertram Jacobus: lol. no ?! whaow - i would say "yes" :o)
    Liza Deischer: I mean, hard to explain
    arabella Ella: it sounds very Platonic to me to talk about absolutes Bert
    Liza Deischer: striving to become better is something different then believing in fulfillment
    arabella Ella: very idealistic
    arabella Ella: and of course nothing wrong with being idealistic
    Liza Deischer: playing 'enlightenment' can in that respect even be dangerous
    arabella Ella: (even though my reply would also be 'no' or ' i don't think so')
    Bertram Jacobus: in which way dangerous ?
    Liza Deischer: because maybe you seek for the wrong answer
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. but then asking could be finished
    Liza Deischer: so I like to take it step by step instead of making assumptions about it
    Liza Deischer: I have a concept
    Liza Deischer: or not even that actually, some ideas you can say
    Bertram Jacobus: but may be the concepts once end

    Liza Deischer: hi Wol
    Bertram Jacobus: and hey wol ! :-)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Wol!
    Wol Euler: hello bert, liza, ara

    Liza Deischer: maybe, but that is the thing
    Liza Deischer: we don't know
    Liza Deischer: at least I don't :_)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: but it may be no "object of knowing"
    Bertram Jacobus: but one of experience
    Liza Deischer: sure, so?
    Liza Deischer: does that make any difference?

    arabella Ella: Ciao Qt!
    Qt Core: (late) hi all
    Liza Deischer: hi QT
    Wol Euler: hello qt
    Bertram Jacobus: hey qt ! :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: we may have some already - as you said (?) at least glimpses and such ?
    Liza Deischer: true, but that's it
    Liza Deischer: it is there all along, sure
    Liza Deischer: but even Pema, who likes to throw around with big words
    Bertram Jacobus: sure !? so you know !? ;-)
    Liza Deischer: becomes very thoughtfull if it comes to enlightened seeing
    Liza Deischer: no, that is the point
    Bertram Jacobus: i try to strengthen always all which can help to experience that

    arabella Ella: interesting chat but I'm afraid i must go now ... goodnight all!
    Wol Euler: bye ara
    Bertram Jacobus: goodnite ara
    Liza Deischer: nite Ara
    Qt Core: 'night Ara

    Bertram Jacobus: and to fight all which hinders
    Liza Deischer: sorry Bert, I don't want to get in the way, so to speak
    Liza Deischer: but it sounds a bit dangerous to me
    Bertram Jacobus: np - because ... especially here at pab i appreciate that we take our different ways ...

    Bertram Jacobus: hey cal
    Liza Deischer: hey Cl
    Qt Core: hi Calvino
    Liza Deischer: Cal
    Wol Euler: hello calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello bert, everyone

    Liza Deischer: maybe next time we should start at eleven :-)
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Qt Core: maybe we are in double dst ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - when did i arrive ? half an hour before ? ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: shift change ? ;o)
    Liza Deischer: yes, something like that :-)


    Bertram Jacobus: that´s another point : i´m simply happy to meet here mostly people, four times a day - with some similar interests, not only surface, variations of beings ... all very nice ...
    Bertram Jacobus: oops
    Bertram Jacobus: and related to "danger" one more time ... isn´t there a sentence : "no risk, no fun" liza ?
    Bertram Jacobus: and some even say : without going through death (!) you won´t reach it (!) ...
    Liza Deischer: all true, but please be careful
    Bertram Jacobus: sry - may be i´m too heavy - try to calm it down now. okai . ty
    Wol Euler: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty again ;-)
    Liza Deischer: okay :-)

    Here we closed the discussion on enlightenment that kept me busy later on for quite a while. 'Playing enlightened' is in my view an exercise not to be taken lightly. It is possible you loose sight of what you are doing and making wrong assumptions about what enlightenment is, in that way feeding your ego instead of dissolving it. So I have some feelings of concern about those exercises.

    In Mahayana Buddhism enlightenment isn't the same as being a Buddha and enlightenment itself is described as different stages.It needs a lot of openness, in Buddhism supported by the 'concept' of 'Emptiness' (in the end excluding the concept itself) and to my opinion even the back-up of a good teacher. In Buddhism the teacher actually being the one that can introduce you to this 'concept'.

    Liza Deischer: I need to go, try to find some sleep
    Liza Deischer: bye all :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: wish ya a nice nite liza !
    Wol Euler: bye liza, thank you for covering for me
    Wol Euler: sleep well
    Calvino Rabeni: Liza if you find any extra, send me some :)
    Qt Core: maybe under the bed ;-)
    Liza Deischer: :-))
    Qt Core: bye Liza

    Bertram Jacobus: wol - you just come from a sl business meeting ? your clothes ... :-)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Wol Euler: looks less businesslike when standing up
    Bertram Jacobus: okayy ...
    Bertram Jacobus: closer look ...
    Bertram Jacobus: worth ...
    Bertram Jacobus: :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: did it before writing, luckily ;-)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - cal is also producing those little hearts ... :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: "Also"?
    Qt Core: i think i
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. fael has it, right and he gave me once, but i don´t find it anymore at the moment ... *gr*lol* :-/
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe I have a slow leak
    Qt Core: i've seen others producing them here
    Wol Euler: :)
    Bertram Jacobus giggles
    Bertram Jacobus: just found it - ty cal ! ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: but also have this one (!) :-)

    Wol introducing a new topic about the relation between implants and suicide

    Wol Euler: Fascinating fact of the day: "An unrelated 2006 study of 25,000 Canadian women who had breast implants between 1974 and 1989 found that their suicide rate was 73 percent higher than that of the general population"
    Bertram Jacobus: lol ty wol :o)

    Wow, didn't know that, quite a number, would like to see that study


    Qt Core: well people that stress enough on their aspect to get an implant may be psycologically weaker i suppose
    Wol Euler nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Unrelated to what, was that study?
    Bertram Jacobus: shall we believe that ? i mean the numbers : 25.000 ? 73 % ?
    Wol Euler: nono
    Wol Euler: not 73 percent of them
    Bertram Jacobus: no no
    Bertram Jacobus: 73 % more then normal
    Wol Euler: they were 73 percent more likely than others
    Wol Euler: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but still a huge number
    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry for those canadian women.
    Wol Euler: absolutely.
    Wol Euler: quite shocking and saddening
    Calvino Rabeni: This wouldn't happen with, italians I guess
    Bertram Jacobus: and also 25.000 are not really few - for a study (?)
    Qt Core: i think that the nose is still the preferred cutting area of italian women
    Calvino Rabeni: Is it a "north country" thing?
    Qt Core: but haven't checked
    Bertram Jacobus: michael jacksons nose was special
    Wol Euler: speaking of sad cases
    Qt Core: had he one ?
    Bertram Jacobus: you´re right wol ...
    Qt Core: the only operation i saw several women i know having was laser eyesight correction

    Bertram Jacobus: sry but i think, i should have some sleep now, too ...
    Wol Euler: goodnight bert, take care
    Qt Core: 'night bert
    Bertram Jacobus: ty very much - all be happy (!) :o)

    Calvino Rabeni: Statistics are such a tease - 73% of them are just made up
    Wol Euler: I heard it was 87%
    Qt Core: and the other 73% are just plain wrong
    Calvino Rabeni: There are various government agencies working on the problem "'as we speak"

    Wol Euler: I'm sorry, I too must go, I'm falling asleep at the keyboard.
    Wol Euler: goodnight, take care
    Qt Core: 'night wol, sleep well
    Calvino Rabeni: I must admit, a nap sounds like an excellent idea
    Qt Core: (but in the end, with big enough dataset i think stats are useful and mostly right, if well done)
    Qt Core: to me too, have to see if the others around here agree)
    Calvino Rabeni: It could be interesting to work in a world of huge datasets
    Calvino Rabeni: The future becomes in that direction
    Qt Core: apply to google then ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: If the others around you agree, it will be nearly unanimous ;)
    Qt Core: big if ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: So enjoy, QT - best of luck with it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye then


    Qt Core: bye :-)

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