2010.05.30 19:00 - About Face

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.
    We started out with introductions and a discussion of the "Ways of Knowing" implied in science and other approaches to knowledge.

    Geo Netizen bows to Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Geo-san :)
    Geo Netizen smiles
    Geo Netizen: Hi Calvino
    Geo Netizen: Tis quite tonight
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think we've met :) but by your profile I'd guess you know all about this place (?)
    Geo Netizen: Yes, I've been here in the past but not for awhile
    Geo Netizen: Are you new here?
    Calvino Rabeni: Between new and old
    Geo Netizen nods
    Calvino Rabeni: You look so comfortable in the monks robes
    Geo Netizen: I am a Franciscan monk so it fits :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And I admire the look of age in your avatar also - that's not so easy to do in SL, I would think
    Geo Netizen: It certainly run contrary to the usually avatar.
    Geo Netizen: But again, it fits SL with FL (RL)
    Geo kindly provides the seed question for discussion and contemplation.
    Geo Netizen: "Science in context: what else is true?" Do you have any notions as to what else is true?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm :)
    Geo Netizen chuckles quietly
    I think and then reframe the question so it blends both that theme, and another I've been carrying around.
    Calvino Rabeni: I was entertaining the concept of "help"
    Geo Netizen nods and listens
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems not well represented in science
    Calvino Rabeni: I'll take it as a "what else"

    Geo Netizen: Science, it seem to me, deals with control of the world.
    --BELL--
    Geo Netizen: It focuses on knowledge than allows us to control, to manipulate; all else is exterior to science.
    Geo Netizen: So help may be pertinent to the extent that science helps us to control to manipulate but goes no further.
    Calvino Rabeni: Prediction is the first focus - explanation
    Geo Netizen bows to Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Mitzi :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: How lovely. Nice to meet you, Geo
    Geo Netizen: But again. Prediction is only considered useful if its end is to be able to then exercise control.
    Calvino Rabeni: Topics raised were "help" and Science, what else is True, Mitzi
    Geo Netizen nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, Geo
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, the discipline of science has depended on actually trying to stay away from making control primary
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Wow! QUite a wide open field of discourse ... what were the two of you talking about so far?
    Calvino Rabeni: Making it subservient to prediction
    Calvino Rabeni: I proposed "help" as a topic not well served by Science, just to get things started
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: control huh?
    Calvino Rabeni: Control is useful for creating experiments in a careful way
    Geo Netizen: And I'm tending to agree in an oblique way :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Technology perhaps, is an application resulting from science
    Calvino Rabeni: However ... for instance, I've never felt right that Google lumps them together in News
    Calvino Rabeni: "Science and Technology"
    Geo Netizen nods
    Calvino Rabeni: it mixes things like the IPad, with discoveries about other planets
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Can I mess things up here a little by asking to contemplate the meaning of the word "control" how does it differ from the word "to do"'
    Calvino Rabeni: Or things of no immediate use
    Calvino Rabeni: In a way I see science as a contemplation, that has to initially renounce control, or at least "usefulness"
    Geo Netizen: There is 'do do' and there is 'to be'.
    Geo Netizen: Those are different is a fundamental way
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: At least they put both separate words in the title of the category - it would be really worse if they called it "Technology" only, and then lumped science and tech topics under that.
    Geo Netizen: I would agree that all science ultimately has to do with "to do" in a fundamental way
    Calvino Rabeni: The discipline of science I think, has to do with making careful explanation and prediction the primary focus (ahead of Control, I meant to say).
    Geo Netizen: And that may be why Google lumps science and tech together
    Calvino Rabeni: When scientists are pressed for results, on which their funding depends, it bodes for poor science
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: is control a bad thing?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: is doing a bad thing?
    Geo Netizen: No, to control disease I would consider good
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, Mitzi, I guess I'd ask - are "bad things" a bad thing?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hmm, to answer my own questions ... I think there is an imbalance in the world ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: LOL!! are bad things a bad thing! You got me ... no I don't feel that bad things are necessarily bad things. ...
    Geo Netizen: What would you say is out of balance?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Way way too much doing and action, based on poor assumptions, little inner awareness and less capacity to notice and listen ... thus having poor results.
    Geo Netizen nods
    Calvino Rabeni: I can go along with that
    Geo Netizen: Awareness of what?
    Calvino Rabeni: Control seems important for personal discipline, which seems one of the keys to freedom
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: awareness of one's own inner conditions, the subtler components thereof
    --BELL--
    Geo Netizen: There is a difference between control of self (self-discipline) and control of other things which I suggest is the focus of most science.
    Geo Netizen: And awareness of 'inner self' I would suggest is awareness of the eternally unique being that I am and how I relate to others.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I will express that whenever I hear/see the word "control" it has a negative feeling for me. I'm wondering if that's true for either of you two. makes it hard for me to engage
    Geo Netizen nods
    Calvino Rabeni: By the way, I see a strange SL phenomenon, the disappearance of the top halves of the avatars - I wondered if either of you noticed that (?)
    Geo Netizen: My display is normal.
    Calvino Rabeni: I have no negative connotation to the word Control
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe a little heaviness - a kind of koan-feeling
    Geo Netizen: I have mixed emotions regarding that word
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: you both look entire to me
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I guess I feel bad, like I wish I could control myself better than I can. I feel inadequate.
    Geo Netizen nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, for me it overlaps a little with Temptation
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: good point about control of self relative to control of others.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Temptation!??! DO tell.
    Calvino Rabeni: And the pressure to make good choices, under a feeling of "unknowing"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: sure
    Geo Netizen listens
    Calvino Rabeni: There's no playbook, formula, recipe for the activity of living
    Calvino Rabeni: Passivity doesn't seem an option.
    Geo Netizen: We can only make choices for ourselves and they can only be as good as our understanding of who we are in relation to Others.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And that's resiliently imperfect
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So, then, how do you determine a good choice? Is it more of a feeling thing or more of a mental thing? Or both?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "resiliently imperfect" ... ahh ... something we can rely on.
    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure that's the full story - choices aren't necessarily personal
    Geo Netizen: It seems to me it is reason seasoned by feelings.
    Calvino Rabeni: (Maybe that's an assumption favored by science)
    Geo Netizen: ?me nods
    Geo Netizen nods
    Geo Netizen: I would think my choices are just that, my choices, personal
    Geo Netizen: (BF Skinner not withstanding)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: when you say "choices aren't necessarily personal" ... do you mean other factors outside ourselves are determinant of our actions?
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't see it that way - although, I go along with what I think Mitzi is saying about the centrality of awareness
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Like, many psychology experiments that show the effects of specific factors on choices that the choosers would say ARE their choices...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... for example, people like another person better if that person hands them a warm cup to hold for a minute than someone who hands them a cold cup to hold for a minute.
    --BELL--
    A classic "debate" maneuver, simply stated:
    Geo Netizen: Yet, at this moment, at any moment, I am capable of transcending the environment and choosing freely.
    Geo Netizen: The cup involves external sense of which we can easily be deceived but I don't think that it impact directly on the topic.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Prove it

    Geo Netizen: Ahh, the empiricist :)
    Geo Netizen: That is the approach of science
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I mean prove to me that your actions are chosen freely versus being determined by outside factors ... how would you convince me , the cynical empiricist?
    Geo Netizen: What phisical evidence can I give.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes
    Geo Netizen: But we started the conversation with a hint at the inadequacy of science
    Geo Netizen: Perhaps this is an example
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, I step out for tea, and the philosophical gauntlet is thrown down :)
    Geo Netizen: Perhaps something more experiential is appropriate
    Geo Netizen: Perhaps something more experiential is appropriate
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: there are a lot of scientific experiments that point to the opposite of us being free choosers of our actions ...
    Geo Netizen: Along the lines of phenomenology :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... yet we have a felt sense of choosing, many times ...
    Geo Netizen nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Science as a whole, doesn't seem friendly to free choice or personal responsibility
    Geo Netizen nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Or even, for that matter "agency"
    Calvino Rabeni: So, it's a faustian bargain :)
    Geo Netizen: And that is one reason it is inadequate for a full description of reality
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: sometimes I feel like I'm an agent of somebody else ...
    Geo Netizen: It does not reach to the core of our experience
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... my latest theory is that the microorganisms in my body are controlling me and making me think their decisions are my own. They have their own agenda ... I am a dupe ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, so who is the fruit of whom then?
    Geo Netizen smiles
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Fascinating, yes ... in Michael Pollen's book "The Botany of Desire"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... he posits that one could equally as validly view humans as being manipualted by plants to serve their evolution ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... as the other way around .
    Geo Netizen: Perhaps, Mitzi, it is simply your core self trying to asserts itself if the face of many facades created by you and others as to who you are.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Perhaps!
    Calvino Rabeni: Essential self vs. false self?
    Geo Netizen: It a way, that is certainly possible.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: But all of these theories feel speculative. Is there a way to discern the more truthful or authentic ones from the wishful thinking or more random concepts of self
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .. that's what I'm really interested in - how any of you might have found ways to parse wheat from chaff internally.
    Calvino Rabeni: You mean, which are the better theories?
    Geo Netizen: Those who pursue the contemplative life are trying to discern just that
    Calvino Rabeni: Some say that's a formal property of theories, but ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I guess I mean really the threads of internal direction that give me the most integrity. Not so much "theories" actually.
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks
    Geo Netizen: Those threads are of great value.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, Geo ... going oint about the contemplative life.
    Calvino Rabeni: How important is this idea of "internal" ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Seems significant - internal. Versus "my boss made me do it."
    Geo Netizen: Internal to you is what the Other that your Being is on a experiential level
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: "My boss made WHO do it" :)
    I meant, that's not just an "outside" idea, but a statement about something 'outside' in relationship to something 'inside'.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Geo - I meant to type "good point about the contemplative life."
    Geo Netizen nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm "Internal to you is what the Other that your Being is on a experiential level"
    Calvino Rabeni: That didn't somehow click for me ...
    Geo Netizen: You are an eternally uninque being
    Calvino Rabeni: Althought I'm reading something into it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: say again ...
    Geo Netizen: Never to be duplicated
    Calvino Rabeni: but not sure it's your meaning
    Geo Netizen: always beloved
    Geo Netizen: what you experience is what I would call that "Internal"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino could you repeat your most recent question?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well Other with a capital O seems to imply an I/Thou relationship that can see the internal of the "not self"
    Calvino Rabeni: And I was wondering if you were suggesting seeing onself in that same way
    Calvino Rabeni: Because there's a way the Other gets more respect than the Self
    Geo Netizen: But you are Other to me as I am Other to you.
    Calvino Rabeni: Because the habits people have of "self use"
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested in the idea of being Other to oneself
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, we totally treat Other in a different manner than self.
    Geo Netizen: Interesting notion
    Calvino Rabeni: And, it begs a big question - what does it take to apprehend Other?
    Geo Netizen: To be in relatioin
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm still not completely parsing your question - about the I/thou relationship and seeing the internal of the "notself"
    Calvino Rabeni: My last question was a restatement in another way
    Geo Netizen: is getting late here on this part of the planet and I need to go. I have enjoyed the discussion. I hope you have a great day of rewarding choices, Mitzi and Calvino.
    Paradise Tennant: bye geo :)
    Geo Netizen bows to Paradise
    Calvino Rabeni: Pleasure to meet you Geo. Hope to see you again? :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at goe
    Paradise Tennant: geo
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: OK ... yes ... but in myself I see a shifting platform of Self ... or possibly a lot of different angles on internal aspects ...
    Geo Netizen bows deeply
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: by geo
    Calvino Rabeni: Be well :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Paradise, didn't see you come in, or were you here all along?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Paradise :)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya mitzi ..actually just arrived .. :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi, I hadn't met "Geo" before, it was refreshing
    Paradise Tennant: smiles he seemed very nice :) and his profile is interesting
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: more monks robes!
    Calvino Rabeni: Franciscan I think
    A Face by any other name:
    Paradise Tennant: eliminates the problem of deciding what to wear in the morning :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: indeed. I felt he was thoughtful and had presence.
    Calvino Rabeni: I've not much had that problem
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Paradise Tennant: ;) how have you been mitzi .. i have not seed you for a while :)
    Paradise Tennant: seen
    Calvino Rabeni: But, that probably came at a terrible cost in lost aesthetic experience
    Paradise Tennant: sorry a bit sleepy here
    Paradise Tennant: yes! cal
    Paradise Tennant: alot of fun to choose colour and texture
    Calvino Rabeni: One becomes one's own Art project
    Calvino Rabeni: .
    --BELL--
    Paradise Tennant: that would be a way of looking at it .. but sometimes also it captures more .. people in the islands dress very colourfully .. in northern climates much more drab attire.. almost as though we match ourselves to our surroundings
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Paradise, I've been remarkably well, thank you for asking ..
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: In warm climates, there's a lot more flow between "inside" and "outside"
    Calvino Rabeni: In those northern climates, there may be some very nice, but invisible, undergarments
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well! and how would *you* know?
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: It's one thing I like about warm climates - not so much inside / outside
    Paradise Tennant: yes all outside :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, how would I know :) ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you suppose also, Faces are different in these warmer climates?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Perhaps those Finnish girls you were hanging out with clued you into that realm!
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni has temptation to flush
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: is there a SL gesture for that?
    Calvino Rabeni: There could be, but the nice thing about it in RL, it is subtle
    Calvino Rabeni: But really, it's not beyond Google :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: faces evolve along with the bodies in different climates I would think ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks Paradise, how do I use this new thing?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles you wear it and .. then play with the faces !
    Calvino Rabeni: "
    Calvino Rabeni: What faces?
    Paradise Tennant: you wear it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: She gave me "EmotherHUD v3.0" I just put it on but not sure how to use it.
    Paradise Tennant: then click on the blue hud
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: Same here, I see nothing
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: WIth my hair all over my face it's hard to see! I tried a few faces but can't tell
    Calvino Rabeni: How did you "try faces" mitzi?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: WHen y ou click on this blue thing (blue octagon) a bunch of faces pop up on the side of my screen. Then I click on them. Probably something is supposed to happen! But I can't see any effect - Paradise, what am I missing?
    Calvino Rabeni: I have the hud, but it doesn't display blue thing
    Paradise had kindly provided an SL HUD that makes the avatar do different emotional expressions.  It would have been a good way to play experientially with the idea of Face.  Unfortunately it didn't work for Mitzi or Calvino, and I decided to edit out the section of trying to get it to work.

    Paradise Tennant: hiya steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was working on my Art of Being work :)
    Paradise Tennant: cool

    stevenaia Michinaga: I'm sure this will make sense when I read the log
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: maybe some editing
    Calvino Rabeni: When I edit the log ... what would you suggest :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'm sure it will make sense in context
    Calvino Rabeni: Optimism at work :)
    --BELL--
    I note Mitzi's clever strategy to use a state of confusion as an opportunity to create a setting for learning something new and outside of what is currently happening.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Or, you could find it a rich field to project on - use to examine a subconscious unresolved issue.
    stevenaia Michinaga: always
    Paradise Tennant: how is your .. art of being ... project going .. steve...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... what's on *your* mind, Stevenaia?
    stevenaia Michinaga: done
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: oops sorry, I was disregarding the bell. I like the bell and state my intention to honor it
    stevenaia Michinaga: sitting at my plot, I guess I must wait until the 7th to get it to Bleu
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: my turn to wonder!
    stevenaia Michinaga: you can join me over there
    stevenaia Michinaga: when things are over here, I think it may be a familiar image
    stevenaia Michinaga: I would be interestted in your thoughts about it

    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: This traces back ... to an earlier question - Is the concept of "Inside" important?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: so are you suggesting ... if we didn't make that "inside / outside" distinctiong - and regarded it all as a unified field so to speak ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... that this view might reveal something fresh?
    Calvino Rabeni: Interesting idea, Mitzi?
    Calvino Rabeni: It might change what Face is about
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: JJ GIbson - Ecological Perception - we talked about this once before.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Looking at the environment very strongly in terms of psychology and not focusing so much on internal processes (as typical psychology is wont to do).
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Face?
    Calvino Rabeni: "Internal" rides again...
    Calvino Rabeni: (no criticism of course! )
    Calvino Rabeni: Face - yes, it is the place "internal" and "external" meet
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah!
    Calvino Rabeni: Inter-Face
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: boundary .... membrane ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Vehicle perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: ... or not
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: means of expression at a minimum ... thus a vehicle for conveying information and or meaning ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: steve, paradise ... I feel calvino and I are dominating the conversation
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: inviteing you both in if you are invlined
    stevenaia Michinaga: listening, go on
    Calvino Rabeni: In the big picture, things find their balance
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember my teacher Ralston, talking about - indirectly - Face
    Calvino Rabeni: In Boxing, people want to punch it :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: oh yes

    ... But not because they are angry or something... it is a principle of interaction and of seeing.

    In boxing practice or other martial art, it is one of those "profound obvious" things that You are the "target" for the Other.  This is true in everyday interaction - You are the Object to the Other but the Subject to yourself.  Why is that useful to "see"?  Because you're "In" the Face, and it's the thing that the Other sees, therefore your tool for being seen and leading or communicating with the Other. That works best if you have insight into what the Other sees of you as an Object, but it's a completely different "appearance" than the appearance of your Face to yourself.  Thus it's a case of being aware of two different appearances at once, for the same event.  In addition to that, there's a peculiar psychology, in which a person works not to have an objective awareness of self, a little like the way the proverbial ostrich that puts its head in the sand imagines itself not to be seen by its pursuer.  (By the way, does anyone know if that actually happens with real ostriches?)

    Calvino Rabeni: Which has a subtle aspect
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: really?
    Calvino Rabeni: In that, people don't actually realize their Face is the external to the Other
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I see ...
    Calvino Rabeni: See, it is "internal" to oneself and not to anyone else in the world
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a big disconect
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: About knowing what is going on
    Paradise Tennant: brb ..dog ..has a request :)
    Calvino Rabeni: subject to me, is object to you, and it meets at Facd
    Calvino Rabeni: *face
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: so I construct my model of my "face" as other see it ... and think it is somewhat accurate ... but of course I can't know the experience of another of me
    Calvino Rabeni: Can't you?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: hmmm! I assume I can't. Or maybe I'm just being "polite"?
    Paradise Tennant: back
    Calvino Rabeni: I know that is kind of an axiom, but maybe it hides too much, limits too much
    Calvino Rabeni: Sharp observaiton Mitzi, about politeness
    Calvino Rabeni: As a temptation to pretend to not know something
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm just asking, look at what that idea categorically excludes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: RIght ... I might have a very strong idea of how you experiience me ... but politeness and false humility prevents me from honestly saying it ...
    Calvino Rabeni: although it might be *important* kind of ignoring
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... because I *could* be wrong ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, it a way it can't enter the realm of objective consideration
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... and because people are *so* SENSITIVE and reacting about that kind of thing
    Calvino Rabeni: and there are philosophical as well as social walls erected so that that doesn't happen
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go
    stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon
    Paradise Tennant: sigh same here :)
    Paradise Tennant: be well everyone
    Calvino Rabeni: I'll check out your Art steve -
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at everyone :)
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks for stopping in :)
    Paradise Tennant: namaste :)
    Paradise Tennant: yes going to check out your pic steve :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Wow good everning! See you all again ...
    Paradise Tennant: take care :)
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: good night paradise
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well I'll check out of SL too then ... good effort Cal at bringing focus
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the discussion, mitzi - see you soon then :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'll fly off - my favorite way of making an exit!
    Calvino Rabeni: I usually like just teleporting away :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye then (as she walks off to the horizon) (and then disappears altogether from SL)
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