2010.06.03 01:00 - Immigration and 'Help'

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino Rabeni and Liza Deischer.

    'Ways of Knowing' Wiki:

    Zen Arado: Hi Cal:)
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, thank you (after some lag).
    Zen Arado: I have an ear infection
    Calvino Rabeni: Just getting settled. Sorry to hear that.
    Zen Arado: it was very painful yesterday but ok toady
    Zen Arado: took some antibiotics
    Calvino Rabeni: Mending, then ?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: I get too much wax in my ears
    Zen Arado: stuff i put in was irritating the ear
    Zen Arado: I was looking for reports on Ways of knowing wiki
    Zen Arado: but can't find any yet
    Calvino Rabeni: I usually put mine in sometime Thursday.
    Zen Arado: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe the current topic is a challenge :)
    Zen Arado: everyone puts them in so late that you don't get much time to read them:)
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been working it for several days, but haven't gotten to writing anything.
    Zen Arado: yes - I just wrote about what helps me in my practice
    Zen Arado: hope that is what you meant
    Calvino Rabeni: You're right, it would be good to be able to read those reports with time to think.
    Calvino Rabeni: (thinking)
    Zen Arado: I have trouble even getting the report onto that wiki
    Calvino Rabeni: What happens?
    Zen Arado: it always adds a lot of html at the top which I have to delete
    Zen Arado: then it sometimes tells me I have already posted the report although it doesn't show up
    Zen Arado: so it won't let me repost it
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, I have not observed either of those
    Zen Arado: well - I just follow the instructions
    Calvino Rabeni: What instructions are those?
    Zen Arado: and that is what happens
    Zen Arado: on one of the pages
    Zen Arado: I click on 'new page' and edit, paste my report and save...basically
    Zen Arado: maybe I should write the whole report on the wiki
    Zen Arado: I wrote the last one on 'Word' and maybe the formatting of word interferes
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I see, wherever you write the report, creates the extra html junk
    Zen Arado: might be
    Calvino Rabeni: And it is Microsoft Word?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I think that would be a problem.
    Zen Arado: or I use a notekeeping program
    Zen Arado: called Evernote
    Zen Arado: very useful program
    Calvino Rabeni: Those could both confuse things
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I always just type the text into the wiki
    Zen Arado: yes - might try that next time - you can keep editting it anyway
    Zen Arado: I tend to write by just putting the first thing that comes into my head and then edit
    Calvino Rabeni: That usually works for me also
    Zen Arado: the 'freewriting ' bit helps to get into your own ideas because you relax your critical faculty I think
    Zen Arado: I do the same when painting - I put a lot of lines or bits of colour onto the canvas to get rid of the white and work from that

    Living places:

    Zen Arado: still enjoying Thailand?
    Calvino Rabeni: (smiles at "get rid of the white")
    Calvino Rabeni: After Asia, I was in a small rural town for a month, now back to the big city
    Zen Arado: advantages to both country and city I suppose
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed
    Calvino Rabeni: The place one lives as koan...
    Zen Arado: which do you prefer?
    Zen Arado: Hi Liza :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the artsy small town surrounded by "Nature"
    Calvino Rabeni: The intellectual fruits of the city are available online now
    Liza Deischer: hi Zen, Cal :-)
    Zen Arado: the people would be more friendly in a small town too?
    Calvino Rabeni: Liza Hello :))
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure about being intrinsically more friendly, but in a small community you know more of them, which means personable behavior
    Zen Arado: I was raised in a city (Belfast) but now live in a small town, which I preferr
    Calvino Rabeni: How large is it?
    Zen Arado: about 40,000
    Zen Arado: and still only 11 miles from Belfast
    Zen Arado: I just got in contact with a guy I knew in Australia 48 years ago yesterday !
    Liza Deischer: wow
    Calvino Rabeni: An unexpected encounter?
    Zen Arado: I shared an apartment with him and another guy in Sydney in 1961
    Zen Arado: he left a message on a message board wanting to contact anyone who had been in the group who went to Australia with an organization called 'the big brother movement' in 1961
    Liza Deischer: the big brother movement :-)
    Zen Arado: the message was nearly 2 years old
    Calvino Rabeni: But it worked :)
    Liza Deischer: a messageboard on the net?
    Zen Arado: yes Liza-and they were guilty of bad treatment to younger emigrants
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: What was happening in 1961 - actually I didn't know there were "movements" that far back :))
    Zen Arado: well - Australia was desperate to increase its population in those days
    Zen Arado: so it sponsored emigrants fro European countries
    Zen Arado: I met lots of Dutch people in Australia Liza
    Liza Deischer: yes, there is quite a big population of Dutch immigrants there
    Calvino Rabeni: I confess a certain nostalgia on hearing about it
    Zen Arado: I wet out on a ship
    Zen Arado: it took 5 1/2 weeks for the voyage
    Zen Arado: I was only 18 then
    Zen Arado: a big adventure for me
    Liza Deischer: and we nowadays think 24 hours by plane is long ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: So, 5 1/2 weeks sitting on a ship with not much to do, nowhere to go?
    Liza Deischer: strange to hear stories about a time I wasn't even born yet
    Calvino Rabeni: Sounds like it could have been an influential experience
    Zen Arado: I was going to write about it on my blog but I can't remember much about what we did during the day
    Zen Arado: but there were interesting port stops
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe a zen-like experience during the passages
    Zen Arado: we stopped at Las Palmas in the Canaries
    Calvino Rabeni: I think my first zen-like experiences might have been induced by slow modes of transportation :)
    Liza Deischer: (where was 'I' in 1961?)
    Zen Arado: there was entertainment and games and stuff
    Zen Arado: were you born yet Liza?
    Liza Deischer: no
    Liza Deischer: but don't let me interrupt your story, just putting out some thoughts of my own
    Zen Arado: np:)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Zen Arado: then we were in Cape Town
    Zen Arado: we didn't go through Suez canal becuase it would be too hot with children aboard
    Zen Arado: we went up the Table mountain in a cable car
    Zen Arado: lots of Dutch settled there too Liza - Afrikanners
    Zen Arado: then we went around to Durban
    Liza Deischer: has been a Dutch colony
    Zen Arado: I remember big Zulu guys pulling rickshaws
    Liza Deischer: they speak a language that can easily read by Dutch people
    Zen Arado: L checked on the web and was surprised they still do that
    Zen Arado: oh? Afrikaans?
    Liza Deischer: yes, most speak English, but the South-Afrikan language used by the white is based on several langeges but mostly Dutch
    Liza Deischer: *languages
    Zen Arado: interesting
    Liza Deischer: Apartheid is made out of a Dutch wod
    Liza Deischer: *word
    Liza Deischer: need typing lessons ◕‿◕
    Zen Arado: just thinking I have never met anyonre from S.Africa in SL
    Zen Arado: :)
    Liza Deischer: me neither
    Zen Arado: yet they are in European time zone
    Liza Deischer: but most are coloured people, they speak English
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Zen Arado: I remember the signs 'whites only' on buses
    Zen Arado: has changed now though I think
    Liza Deischer: I surely hope so
    Zen Arado: anyway....we continued on to Freemantle....the longest stretch at sea
    Liza Deischer: only one of the few changes I'm afraid
    Zen Arado: there was a big storm as we approached Fremantle
    Zen Arado: ocean liner felt like a toy boat in the huge waves
    Zen Arado: http://www.ssmaritime.com/orion.htm
    Zen Arado: that was the ship
    Liza Deischer: but for an 18 year old, it might have been a long trip, but with a lot of deep impressions too I should think
    Calvino Rabeni: A big change for an 18-year-old
    Zen Arado: ah - at that age you are so unfearful and confident
    Zen Arado: so innocent I think
    Zen Arado: don't realize te dangers of life
    Liza Deischer: that is one of the reason I suppose that it makes such an impression
    Zen Arado: oh yes
    Zen Arado: in those days it was a good way to see the world
    Zen Arado: travel was so expensive
    Liza Deischer: right
    Zen Arado: if you stayed less than 2 years you had to pay back your fare
    Liza Deischer: those big trips were only made for immigration purposes in those days
    Zen Arado: yes - it was the 'immigrant run'
    Liza Deischer: I have family in Canada because of that
    Calvino Rabeni: Did you get any "seed" resources?
    Zen Arado: yes - Canada was popular too
    Zen Arado: no you didn't Cal
    Zen Arado: I sailed with £10 in my pocket
    Liza Deischer: but you have been living a while in Australia then?
    Zen Arado: I stayed there 8 years
    Liza Deischer: arriving with only a tenner
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: I spent most of it on the boat
    Zen Arado: I came back to Ireland for a holiday and never got around to going back
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Zen Arado: it was 6 of one and half dozen of the other as we say here
    Zen Arado: you know that expression?
    Liza Deischer: yes :), one of the few
    Calvino Rabeni: What led to such a bold move to begin with?
    Zen Arado: don't really know Cal
    Zen Arado: just wanted to see the world I guess
    Liza Deischer: I guess a lot of people were considering it in those days
    Calvino Rabeni: Adventure and curiosity
    Zen Arado: many young people do that by having a 'gap year' now
    Calvino Rabeni: Did no one try to talk you out of it?
    Zen Arado: no
    Zen Arado: emigration was popular in those days
    Liza Deischer: I don't know if a gap year is the same
    Calvino Rabeni: I see, not considered unusual
    Liza Deischer: not in those days
    Zen Arado: my father always wanted to emigrate too
    Liza Deischer: alsmot every famliy in a lot of countries have family abroad for that reason
    Liza Deischer: all from the fifties and sixties
    Zen Arado: I sponsored my family to come out after 4 years
    Liza Deischer: spcial steamliners going up and down
    Zen Arado: but my mother didn't want to settle there, so they came home after 4 years
    Zen Arado: yes - even into the 70's Liza
    Liza Deischer: oh, could be, but can't remember as a child
    Liza Deischer: I didn't grow up with that possibility, so to speak
    Liza Deischer: bon in 64
    Zen Arado: you can still go and work in Australia
    Liza Deischer: oh yes
    Zen Arado: but have to have a pretty good qualification - doctor or nurse or something like that
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: but you still have a community in Australia of Dutch people, still living in the fifties
    Zen Arado: yes - nationalities seem to flock together
    Liza Deischer: yes, quite normal human behavior
    Zen Arado: but all the different nationalities mad Australia so interesting
    Liza Deischer: and then to think that we have this big 'integration' discussion going on in Holland
    Zen Arado: integrating who ?
    Liza Deischer: mostly Morocan and Turkish people
    Zen Arado: ah yes
    Zen Arado: funny thing is we have a lot of immigrants coming to N.Ireland too now
    Liza Deischer: you Moracons cause problems, so the Dutch now demand they 'integrate'
    Zen Arado: we have Turkish Romanians POlish...
    Liza Deischer: oh yes Polish, especially the last decade
    Zen Arado: they didn't come before because of the bombs
    Zen Arado: I have a Polish friend
    Zen Arado: goes to the Zen center
    Liza Deischer: strangly enough there is a community in England
    Liza Deischer: of somalian people
    Liza Deischer: talking Dutch amongst themselves :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Liza Deischer: they immigrated to Holland, and the next generation is settling in England
    Zen Arado: I think there is a similarity with Dutch and Irish people - they like to travl and see the world
    Liza Deischer: but 'integration' nowadays means that people are forced to get rid of there own culture
    Zen Arado: you find them everywhere
    Liza Deischer: the Dutch are very proud being travellers of the world (hmmmmmmm) :)
    Zen Arado: guess we are all immigrants of you go back far enough
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Zen Arado: my ancestors were Scottis/English
    Liza Deischer: as far as we can go back, we are Dutch
    Liza Deischer: but my grandpa and brother are having a Norwegian name, so.......
    Liza Deischer: first name I mean
    Zen Arado: I have to go
    Zen Arado: lots to do in RL today
    Liza Deischer: okay Zen, see you :-)
    Liza Deischer: have a nice day
    Zen Arado: thanks for coming :)
    Zen Arado: bye

    Inventory problems:

    Liza Deischer: there is clothing missing in my invent?
    Liza Deischer: ones that I use
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe a search filter is hiding things?
    Calvino Rabeni: I've never noticed missing things, other than apparently, for that reason
    Liza Deischer: no
    Liza Deischer: everything else seems to be there, no filter
    Liza Deischer: hmmmm, sl, most reliable partner :)
    Calvino Rabeni: What are you missing?
    Calvino Rabeni: Clothing I guess
    Liza Deischer: tanks
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: You're welcom
    Liza Deischer: I saw I was still wearing a tank under this one
    Liza Deischer: so wanted to take it of and of the nine that should be there, only that one is still there
    Liza Deischer: no I mean, tanks
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sleeveless shirts
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: like the one I'm wearing now
    Liza Deischer: well let's see what happens tomorrow :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I saw someone wearing a shirt - in RL - that said
    Calvino Rabeni: "As a Finishing Touch, God Made the Dutch"
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Liza Deischer: I guess it rhyms, that all you can say about it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) looking but not much happening in the chat department
    Liza Deischer: no :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Unless you have any idea about Help - that is mulling in the back of my thinking
    Liza Deischer: ??
    Calvino Rabeni: An english idiom - the back of my mind - refers to subconscious thinking

    'Help' topic:

    Liza Deischer: in Dutch too, but what about 'any idea about Help'?
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a rather broad topic I proposed to the ways of knowing group
    Calvino Rabeni: to contemplate it for homework
    Liza Deischer: ah yes, I remember
    Calvino Rabeni: If you were to state - what is the first most obvious thing about this topic, what would occur?
    Liza Deischer: can you say something about your thoughts until now?
    Liza Deischer: 'Help, I need somebody's help........' :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :))))
    Calvino Rabeni: Beautiful, thanks !
    Liza Deischer: I can't remember anymore how we got there last time
    Calvino Rabeni: As important a topic as it is, there is that emotional climate one encounters very first thing
    Liza Deischer: if you got to think about it, it is rather dramatic: Help, I need somebody's help, is there anybody, help, heeeeeeeeeelp
    Liza Deischer: hanging between heaven and earth (might be a Dutch idiom)
    Calvino Rabeni: (smiling) Actually I think it's helpful to express that feeling, to gain awareness of it
    Liza Deischer: not connected
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a challenge, to gain very much "free attention" about it as a topic
    Liza Deischer: and could be both wanting it or offering it
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I believe it is one of those things like Love, that one wants it, but starts getting "freedom" when gaining the ability to give it
    Calvino Rabeni: Even though, it's not "selfless"
    Liza Deischer: I guess nothing is
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe better to drop the idea that it "should be"?
    Liza Deischer: right, my idea
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems to be part of the idea that people are independent rather than inter-dependent
    Liza Deischer: selflessness you mean
    Liza Deischer: nice way to put it :)
    Liza Deischer: never thought of it that way
    Liza Deischer: but then what is selfless
    Liza Deischer: without self or not taking consideration of yourself
    Liza Deischer: can you do something without considering yourself
    Liza Deischer: well different track I suppose
    Calvino Rabeni: When I propose the topic in RL recently - it's kind of an experiment - to see how it is dealt with
    Calvino Rabeni: One type of response was, "Only I can know what is true for myself"
    Calvino Rabeni: So it seemed a kind of way to put a positive interpretation on being independent and bearing the full responsibility for living
    Calvino Rabeni: kind of "survival depends on me"
    Calvino Rabeni: That is, it seemed a way to reinforce *not* having help
    Liza Deischer: I don;t know the context that is has been put in, diffirent contexts are possible here
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, the context is - one's life, no less -
    Calvino Rabeni: It's an open question, and to ask it, asks what that context is
    Liza Deischer: I understand
    Calvino Rabeni: saying "what does Help mean to you?"
    Liza Deischer: I think connection is the key to me
    Calvino Rabeni: Same with me Liza
    Liza Deischer: but that doesn't necesarrily means others
    Calvino Rabeni: True
    Liza Deischer: There was a topic not so long ago, which I would like to get deeper in too: self nurtering
    Liza Deischer: for Help you seem to need both resources 'outside' yourself as inside yourself
    Calvino Rabeni: very true
    Calvino Rabeni: there's two ends to those connections
    Liza Deischer: those need to connect otherwise nothing is changing
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Liza Deischer: which is kind of interesting because that means help is about change
    Liza Deischer: or the possibility of it
    Liza Deischer: no the situation is the possibility
    Liza Deischer: real help is the changing
    Liza Deischer: situation as in being confused, anxious or whatever
    Liza Deischer: brb
    Calvino Rabeni: OK :)
    Liza Deischer: back
    Calvino Rabeni: WB :)
    Liza Deischer: ty :)
    Liza Deischer: at the moment that the sun is setting :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Nights are getting longer here
    Liza Deischer: huh?
    Liza Deischer: your nights :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, sorry - :)
    Liza Deischer is glancing at the time
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks, we could be "done" Liza :)))
    Calvino Rabeni: I think there's more for later though, I trust your thinking on this topic
    Liza Deischer: meaning that you are again late Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, 3am is a favorite hour for me though ")
    Liza Deischer: yes, it is an interesting topic, will probably think about it
    Calvino Rabeni: Theres a point of mystery inside it - where a possibility becomes manifested
    Calvino Rabeni: Before that can happen, some other things might need to be in place
    Liza Deischer: hmmm, you could be right
    Calvino Rabeni: Nurturing is one part of it, I believe
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And past that, there's...
    Liza Deischer: yes?
    Calvino Rabeni: (trying to finish that thought)
    Liza Deischer: maybe you should sleep on that, because if three o clock is your favorit time, you're way past your bedtime
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Liza Deischer: we have enough time to talk about it later
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I've got it finished, but just not sure how to state it clearly
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the expectation that each person is really "up to something big"
    Calvino Rabeni: giving that a witness is one secret of help
    Calvino Rabeni: whether it is self help or to another
    Liza Deischer: interesting would be, how to do that
    Liza Deischer: nurtering, support
    Calvino Rabeni: Knowing that all one's activities are gated through awareness
    Liza Deischer: it is what the shift is all about
    Calvino Rabeni: and awakening a kind of "conscience" with respect to that awareness
    Liza Deischer: awareness and concentration
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, a kind of unification of many levels of awareness
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: which is a non-intellectual knowing
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: which we have the word "intuition" to describe
    Calvino Rabeni: but it has many facets and depths
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: OK :)
    Liza Deischer: but the real thing to me is
    Liza Deischer: is how to translate that in western society
    Liza Deischer: because actually the methods are already there
    Liza Deischer: but is asking too much of certain parts of western people
    Liza Deischer: no culture to back it up
    Liza Deischer: I think Pema is looking for the same thing
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Liza Deischer: but he (or they) are mixing up different levels, to my opinion
    Calvino Rabeni: what levels are you considering?
    Liza Deischer: we talk a lot about things that are on what I refer to as wisdoms level
    Liza Deischer: like emptiness
    Liza Deischer: but using tools on the psychological levels
    Liza Deischer: emptiness on that level meaning something quite different
    Liza Deischer: if you can approach it at all in that way
    Liza Deischer: ego is different
    Liza Deischer: the dissolving of ego is only possible on the wisdom level
    Liza Deischer: but working with ego is quite possible on the psychological level
    Liza Deischer: but sometimes I feel like people want to gain something with psychological tools
    Liza Deischer: that can't be delt with with those tools
    Liza Deischer: so you get all kind of weird assumptions
    Liza Deischer: sometimes even up to some that think to find the 'truth'
    Liza Deischer: or already has found it
    Liza Deischer: but it starts with working with ego
    Liza Deischer: on a psychological level
    Liza Deischer: you just need to know that it is psychology, not wisdom
    Liza Deischer: but you first need to make space in the ego itself
    Liza Deischer: to start working with it
    Liza Deischer: and if ego is giving some space
    Calvino Rabeni: True
    Liza Deischer: you can work on space
    Liza Deischer: space being an introduction to wisdom
    Liza Deischer: but many levels there
    Liza Deischer: in all those steps
    Liza Deischer: but this is actually the framework I try to develop with the shift
    Liza Deischer: also knowing and being aware that sometimes there are big obstacles on the psychological level
    Liza Deischer: they need to be addressed
    Liza Deischer: like negative emotions
    Liza Deischer: low self esteme
    Liza Deischer: trauma's
    Liza Deischer: but religious group are very scared of touching those psychological levels
    Liza Deischer: and pschologist don't want to encounter even the beginning of wisdom
    Liza Deischer: maybe called 'intuition'
    Calvino Rabeni: You're right, there's a gap between the centers of those two different groups
    Calvino Rabeni: but there are people who know both
    Liza Deischer: yes, found a good thrapist :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and knowledge from both is finding its way throughout the culture
    Liza Deischer: true
    Calvino Rabeni: the ideas encounter and seem unclearly related
    Calvino Rabeni: (not that they need to be)
    Liza Deischer: there is a development for sure
    Calvino Rabeni: the real learning - is happening on the cultural level, not the personal
    Calvino Rabeni: (or at least, quite valid learning)
    Liza Deischer: I should say the cultural is giving the support or not
    Liza Deischer: *culture
    Liza Deischer: part of the help-system
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Liza Deischer: I'm kicking you to bed now :-))
    Calvino Rabeni: heheh
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it's a just a ittle past "curfew" now
    Calvino Rabeni: It was good to hear more of your ideas on these things
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, to be continued :)))
    Liza Deischer: a little (big smile with a little yea yea in her eyes)
    Liza Deischer: ys, to be continued
    Calvino Rabeni: (laughs)
    Calvino Rabeni: So, bye for now Liza
    Liza Deischer: bye Cal, always nice to talk to you
    Calvino Rabeni: Same, Liza
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