2010.06.05 13:00 - Being pays us a visit again

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Darren Islar. The comments are by Darren Islar.

    After a slow start, you will find here a nice discussion about Being again. Enjoy

    Arrivals, Cryptonomicon for geeks, and Eliza's deadly weapon

    Darren Islar: hi Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I usually get here by teleporting - maybe my av is lazy? but it doesn't seem to get exercise by walking to and fro in Second Life
    Wol Euler: oops, forgot to change clothes :)
    Wol Euler: brb
    Darren Islar: hahah
    Darren Islar: brb
    Darren Islar: don't ask me what happens when I say br b
    Darren Islar: it doesn't seem to be a gesture
    Darren Islar: but there is this strange sound
    Darren Islar: and me going afk
    Darren Islar: hi Wol
    Darren Islar: able to show yourself :-)
    Wol Euler: hello darren, cal
    Wol Euler: yes, I was wearing last night's outfit when I rezzed
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Wol
    Calvino Rabeni: brb, I have to go see a cat
    Darren Islar: the new wiki is working fine
    Darren Islar: how are you Wol?
    Wol Euler: having a weekend off :)
    Darren Islar: great
    Wol Euler: since Monday is my birthday but I can't take that off
    Wol Euler: I have declared a two-day holiday.
    Darren Islar: ah, not so great
    Wol Euler: had sushi and cappuccino in a rooftop beach bar this afternoon, then sat on the balcony and read Cryptonomicon
    Darren Islar: sounds relaxing
    Wol Euler grins and nods
    Darren Islar: don't know cryptonomicon
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Calvino Rabeni: back .
    Darren Islar: wb Cal
    Wol Euler: if you like convoluted mergings of story and timelines, over 700 pages or so, full of geekery, then it's for you :)
    Darren Islar: :-))
    Wol Euler: a lot of it is about mathematics and cryptography
    Calvino Rabeni: ahem
    Wol Euler: hello steve
    Calvino Rabeni: good day Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi all
    Darren Islar: hi Steven
    Calvino Rabeni: Anything convoluted, is too much like "work", Wol
    Darren Islar: hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi :)
    Calvino Rabeni: After a day at the office, I didn't want my mind to do more of what it had done there....
    Wol Euler: hello eliza
    Calvino Rabeni: :) eliza
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
    Wol Euler: you do cryptography at work?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Elisa
    Calvino Rabeni: Software engineering - the endless concern with hyper-complex abstract structures

        --BELL--

    Darren Islar: hi Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: HIYA
    Calvino Rabeni: So ... layers of coding .. representations of representations ... going on as far as the mind can see ...
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: there is a Tai Chi form (fan form) that uses it as a deadly weapon...watching ELiza innocently
    Wol Euler: hello yaku
    Calvino Rabeni: But then, you know the kind of things those in info/tech professions do to balance it out
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya, and laughing @ Steve
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe I can learn that on you tube ;-)
    Darren Islar: steve is keeping his eyes on the fan
    Darren Islar: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe... promise to be good, Steve
    Calvino Rabeni: The fan's job is to distract, Steve, so don't look directly at it :)
    Darren Islar: heheh
    Calvino Rabeni: Keep an eye on the Obi, and the sleeve hems instead
    Calvino Rabeni: And the hairpiece
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: the hairpin, favored weapon of murderous old ladies everywhere
    Calvino Rabeni: Precisely
    Eliza Madrigal: ::::trust in me.... just in me::::: @.@ (mesmerizing Steve)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen
    Wol Euler: hello zen
    Darren Islar: hi Zen
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen and druth
    Wol Euler: hello druth
    Zen Arado: Hi All
    Darren Islar: hi Druth
    druth Vlodovic: hi all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :)
    Darren Islar: have you been here before Druth?
    Calvino Rabeni: Druth has, yes
    Darren Islar: ok
    stevenaia Michinaga: Good to see you again Druth
    druth Vlodovic: thanks steve


    The wiki consuming some session-time and some confusion about the notecard/handout to use for newcomers

    Eliza Madrigal: we're quiet today... the wiki must have exhausted everyone :)) Thanks, btw, Cal and Wol especially
    Calvino Rabeni: YW
    Eliza Madrigal: (and fael if you're reading ;-D )
    Darren Islar: it is working quite well, already posted a log
    Zen Arado: lots of work there
    druth Vlodovic: wiki?
    Calvino Rabeni: Fael did most of the heavy lifting
    Wol Euler: I had nothing to do with it, all Fael and Calvino's work
    Eliza Madrigal: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/
    Wol Euler: yes, druth, we record these meetings and publish them on the web. Did nobody tell you that before?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I need a new notecard to hand out to new people, has anyone updated that?
    Eliza Madrigal: Druth, yes the site we record our sessions to. Its been moved from one place to another
    druth Vlodovic: I've read bits of it, I was thinking everyone was reading a link someone sent :)
    Darren Islar: oh no, not yet
    Eliza Madrigal: No, would you like to Steve? Would be great
    Wol Euler: the info machine outside has updated notecards
    Darren Islar: good of you to remind us
    Wol Euler: storm fixed them already
    stevenaia Michinaga: v3.2 comming up
    stevenaia Michinaga: these are the hand outs some of us ahve, Wol
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, great. Thanks Wol. I wonder which card that is. Yes.. I have a card for newcomers that might do with some editing too.. hm.. let me see.
    Calvino Rabeni: I didn't know it gave a notecard? The i symbol gives a landmark
    stevenaia Michinaga: that's the one, then we will need to pass them around
    Wol Euler: it gives a whole folder now, LM and several NCs
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah! wow, I didn't realize... I have this one card I give to visitors
    Eliza Madrigal: I just updated the link on that one
    Calvino Rabeni: Is there more than one? All I got was a LM
    Darren Islar: did get an lm, but no nc
    Wol Euler: I just clicked onthe one behind steve, it gave me a LM and NC
    Zen Arado: we need an 'official' handout for newcomers maybe
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, let me give you guys a copy. We can see if its the same Steve (and Wol?) have...
    Wol Euler: (not a folder)
    Darren Islar: no
    Wol Euler: ah, but the LM has the old URL on it still. I'll tell Storm
    Darren Islar: ok
    Wol Euler: yes that's the one it gives out
    Zen Arado: ty Eliza
    Zen Arado: need a proper link too
    Zen Arado: that you just click on

        --BELL--

    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, thanks. The one I gave is what I try to give people... it doesn't say anything about the pauses...
    Darren Islar: I use the same one, gotten from Mick when I came here


    The notecard is bringing us to the centre of what PaB is all about: Being
    Being far off as Frontier

    Zen Arado: Can we form ideas about what Being could be....hmmmmm
    Darren Islar: as a topic you mean
    Zen Arado: any ideas?
    Calvino Rabeni: Being is the Final Frontier
    Zen Arado: from the notecard
    Darren Islar: ah, okay
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: thought that was space Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Inner Space :)
    Zen Arado: 'to go where no man has gone before....
    Wol Euler: since neither space nor time exists (they tell us), it pretty well has to be Being.
    Calvino Rabeni: Living in the "West", it's so easy to have it remain a cultural background myth
    Darren Islar: hmmmm, I think being is all around
    Calvino Rabeni: First the europeans went west across the great water, in search of new freedom or to escape oppression
    Calvino Rabeni: Then they slowly migrated West across that continent
    Calvino Rabeni: Ending up on the West Coast
    Zen Arado: in covered wagons
    Calvino Rabeni: which has a whole different ethos then the East
    Zen Arado: surrounded by wild Indians
    Calvino Rabeni: Many waves of emigration and migration
    Wol Euler: yes, the east coast was settled by Europeans, the west coast by Americans :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Of course, that happened to Australia also
    Zen Arado: smae for every country though
    Zen Arado: happened in London
    Zen Arado: still happening
    Calvino Rabeni: For every culture, there must be some Away
    Darren Islar: I seem to miss Being in this story, or I'm lost
    Calvino Rabeni: Even for those who are urban-bound and feel a-historical
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye for now
    Darren Islar: bye Steve
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, steve
    Zen Arado: bye Steve
    Calvino Rabeni: Migration is about change, becoming - which is the Yang face of Being
    Zen Arado: changing your environment
    Calvino Rabeni: The myth represents discontent
    Calvino Rabeni: And a future state of being re-settled
    Zen Arado: or greed
    Calvino Rabeni: That future state is the image of Being (if not the reality of it)
    Zen Arado: gold rushes ?
    Darren Islar: can Being change?
    Calvino Rabeni: It IS change
    Darren Islar: or is change part of being
    Zen Arado: don't think you can control it
    Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking some more about Eos's line "I think therefore there's time"... It came up in another place, that every time we think, we're introducing a kind of illusion of distance...
    Darren Islar: nice line
    Eliza Madrigal: not when thoughts arise, necessarily, and go, but when we 'think' which a kind of 'act' forward...
    Eliza Madrigal: strange to consider
    Zen Arado: if we think it's always about the past or future?
    Darren Islar: mmhmm yes, seems right
    Eliza Madrigal nods...
    Calvino Rabeni: Here's an interesting question - what is your (or our) "Frontier"?
    Zen Arado: awakening
    Eliza Madrigal: when we are ahead thinking, we are usually considering the past, and when we think behind, it is usually so be better prepared for future, or that's what we think the whys are
    druth Vlodovic: "Most people live in a fog of the past and future." paraphrased from Terry Pratchett
    Darren Islar: well Cal, that is where I got confused, a Frontier and a re-settled being means there is and 'end'
    Zen Arado: nice Druth
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The myth of the Frontier is, open possibility, that you don't really know what will "Be" there
    Darren Islar: or at least suggests it

        --BELL--

    Calvino Rabeni: and yet, will succeed perhaps in making a new "home" there
    Calvino Rabeni: So the Frontier represents the imagined idea of liberation from that "fog of past and future" where things seem just toooo .. tame, predetermined, preconceived
    Zen Arado: a frontier is something you try to go beyond
    Calvino Rabeni: Most people don't live near the frontier
    Zen Arado: yes Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: they live on the safe , civilized side
    druth Vlodovic: or too set and unchangeable
    Calvino Rabeni: leaving it to desperadoes to explore and widen the frontier
    Calvino Rabeni: And having mixed feelings about those crazies

    Wol Euler: hello bleu
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi bleu
    Bleu Oleander: hi everyone
    Darren Islar: hi Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
    Zen Arado: 'the farmers and the cowboys should be friends....
    Zen Arado: Hi Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: Another great look Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: thx :)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Wol Euler: wow
    Eliza Madrigal: there is something sea creature about it...
    Bleu Oleander: sea creature?
    Wol Euler: yeah, I thought that too
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, not sure how so, but that's what I first thought
    Bleu Oleander: interesting
    Wol Euler: like those deep-sea fish
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Bleu Oleander: really deep

    Calvino Rabeni: So now we live in a postmodern fragmented world - full of diversity and extremes, hiding just around any corner
    Eliza Madrigal: ah... whale shark... the fabric is similar
    Calvino Rabeni: enjoying any strange creatures who may appear from the depth
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Too little or too much "strange" and we wouldn't function very well
    Zen Arado: bio of a new person following me : # Bio Project Nsearch discusses the New World Order, free energy, alternative medicine, ufos, secret space programs, time travel, alex jones, ron paul, health & more!
    Zen Arado: should I follow back?
    Calvino Rabeni: No
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice, Calvino, earlier ... a qualification that there can possibly actually be a 'future' time of liberation
    Eliza Madrigal: or maybe the qualification is that there is an 'idea' which automatically is distancing....
    Calvino Rabeni: Not too many choices... if it is not here now, it's in the future
    Calvino Rabeni: but the culture also believes it is in the Past
    Darren Islar: ehhhh ?
    Calvino Rabeni: as the mythic "Eden"
    Zen Arado: dangerous to always put awakening into the future
    Zen Arado: so says Eckhart Tolle
    Zen Arado: it is now
    Bleu Oleander: for us at least
    Darren Islar: yes I even think it is in the future
    Calvino Rabeni: How many, basically believe, it must have been better originally, or perfect, and it will hopefully return to that state (but it isn't *right now*) ?
    Eliza Madrigal: where's the future
    Zen Arado: it's a way of distancing ourselves
    Darren Islar: maybe we don't have the abilities, which defines a certain future for humans
    Calvino Rabeni: So the spiritual approaches of seeing "perfection" in the present, are in the minority
    Darren Islar: which means that being exists on its own
    Eliza Madrigal: I think if there is a future 'time' when its true, and time is illusory, then it must be true now
    Eliza Madrigal: whatever it is
    Zen Arado: yes
    Darren Islar: that would be logical
    Eliza Madrigal: wow. never been accused of that before
    Zen Arado: :)
    Darren Islar: hehehh
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be logical in a way, if you believe the basic "laws of nature" do not change
    Calvino Rabeni: but, that's an open question too
    Darren Islar: I disagree cal
    Zen Arado: laws are man made
    Calvino Rabeni: disagree with ...?
    Zen Arado: or human made I mean
    Darren Islar: Being being part of laws of nature
    Calvino Rabeni: If they aren't then what .. ?
    Darren Islar: I actually don't know
    Darren Islar: :-))
    Eliza Madrigal: whenever we use words like 'true' it seems to open just that question... we only know of true, what we know of true
    Zen Arado: a model of how we think reality behaves
    Calvino Rabeni: We can notice the models; without committing to whether they are somehow "really" true
    Zen Arado: sure
    Calvino Rabeni: Ontological agnosticism
    Zen Arado: our best guesses
    Darren Islar: but can we put Being to the same 'test'
    Zen Arado: great phrase
    Calvino Rabeni: How can Being be tested?
    Darren Islar: if it is part of the laws of nature, maybe it could
    Zen Arado: we live it I guess
    Calvino Rabeni: Some religions equate God with that role, and try to figure out whether that "being" has qualities or is beyond qualities and attributes
    Eliza Madrigal: well, when we drop these distancing ideas and thoughts, impositions, are we better able to synch with what IS natural....

        --BELL--

    Calvino Rabeni: @eliza, if that could be done in a complete way, we'd have already done it, so it must be more relative and ongoing?
    Zen Arado: drop the 'knowing'
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, but they just keep "coming back" after being dropped
    Eliza Madrigal: and my sense is personally that we know what is natural directly... from a taste/glimpse... something that is beyond figuring out...
    Calvino Rabeni: and the ideas, etc, are part of "being" also ?
    Zen Arado: experiential
    Eliza Madrigal: sure... ideas, thoughts, creations, projects....
    Calvino Rabeni: Experiential doesn't seem like a whole separate category ..
    Zen Arado: don't think you can cal it a category
    Zen Arado: it just is
    Zen Arado: not a way of thinking

    Darren Islar: need to take care of something
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Darren
    Darren Islar: nite all :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night
    Zen Arado: bye Darren
    Wol Euler: bye darren
    Wol Euler: too slow

    Calvino Rabeni: IF not a way of thinking, then it's neither a way of other modes of experiencing either
    Zen Arado: just being with the present moment
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean there are lots of ways of knowing / experiencing in addition to "thinking" and they all have similar limitations to "thinking"
    Eliza Madrigal: letting the present moment come from being...
    Zen Arado: when we think about it it distances us again
    Calvino Rabeni: Intuition is basically a subtle mode of "thinking"
    Calvino Rabeni: Not any closer to "experience"
    Calvino Rabeni: (for instance)
    Zen Arado: a different level of knowing?
    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose yes, I'm thinking of things as flipped, like we're trying to get 'into' something which is an illusion/projection which keeps us from seeing we're there
    Eliza Madrigal: like having a pencil on our ear
    Eliza Madrigal: and searching all over

    Zen Arado: what's too slow Wol?
    Wol Euler: I was, to bid Darren farewell
    Zen Arado: ah ok

     

    Being as being close by: 'nearer then near' (Calvino)

    Calvino Rabeni: Another mode of cognizing Being is - its' appearance as "I"
    Calvino Rabeni: which is not "over there" at all
    Calvino Rabeni: it is nearer than near :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Too near to objectify
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I do like that phrase... 'too near to objectify'
    Calvino Rabeni: So that would appear as "indirect" to the thinking mind, because it's outside forms and patterns that themselves can be conceived
    Eliza Madrigal: its silly to try to 'not think' but if we can see that we tend to create distance from inherent satisfaction by thinking in hm... somewhat aggressive ways.. (I)...
    Zen Arado: the 'I' seems more like ego to me
    Zen Arado: being is part of everything else?
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe there's a Real "I" and some kind of partial or false ones....
    Calvino Rabeni: Lots of religions like to posit there's a more real one :)
    Zen Arado: true self' it is often called
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, some True Self
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a nice concept :))
    Zen Arado: like the water under the waves analogy?
    Calvino Rabeni: And evidently, an important distinction
    Eliza Madrigal: the assertion of the I, seems the assertion of measurement... of comparison, of identity.... can be seen as aggression
    Zen Arado: yes...self survival
    Calvino Rabeni: Tao couldn't move without Yang as well as Yin
    Eliza Madrigal: survival yes and fragmentation...
    Calvino Rabeni: Parts as well as Wholes
    Calvino Rabeni: The whole depends on the parts, and vice versa
    Eliza Madrigal: by Tao in this sense you mean Being? then are yin and yang expressions of a natural way of being?
    Zen Arado: 'In Taoism, Tao both precedes and encompasses the universe. '

        --BELL--

    Calvino Rabeni: As expressed by Lao Tzu, I suppose, Tao begot one, then two, then the 10000 things
    Zen Arado: it can't be expressed in words apparently
    Eliza Madrigal: yes so, in terms of the question of "Being", and of frontiers and homes and time... those are things that do express what is inexpressable
    Eliza Madrigal: those 10,000 things... by yin and yang
    Calvino Rabeni: the world of forms
    Calvino Rabeni: playground of "thinking"
    Calvino Rabeni: or for some, a prison


    A small intermezzo concerning unspeakable words

    Wol Euler: there's a funny-disgusting German saying about that:
    Calvino Rabeni: Does it seem, Tao is a concept related to "nondual" consciousness?
    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose I was thinking that resting in Tao, then yin/yang, the 10000 things are all friends., but the main thing is the resting
    Wol Euler: which I will spare the log :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ok, Wol what a tease
    Eliza Madrigal: and you can't 'get' the resting anywhere... or find it in the future in some way
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes for sure
    Calvino Rabeni: We need a "non log" statement box in this pool
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: well, I started typing and found it really awful )
    Calvino Rabeni: To put the "unmentionables" into
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: some kind of blatant signal, though Im not sure i wanna know now
    Wol Euler: "for some, it's a piece of shit; to others, the world's largest chocolate bar"
    Eliza Madrigal: heh
    Wol Euler: don't say I didn't warn you.
    Bleu Oleander: deff need a special place for that
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Calvino Rabeni: Interesting ... where that comes from...
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: well, after you were so worried it wasn't half as bad as I imagined
    Bleu Oleander: my dogs understand that
    Eliza Madrigal: ;-D
    Calvino Rabeni: A way with words
    Eliza Madrigal: haha Bleu
    Calvino Rabeni: right, the dog is thinking "so... your point is ... ? "
    Bleu Oleander: :)


    Can Being be named?

    Zen Arado: "We desire to understand the world by giving names to the things we see, but these things are only the effects of something subtle. When we see beyond the desire to use names, we can sense the nameless cause of these effects."
    Zen Arado: from the Tao Te ching
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: The thing that concerns me, is the potential to think of these things categorically - in either / or terms
    Zen Arado: so we have to sense rather than understand?
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke, it is EITHER naming OR the ineffable
    Eliza Madrigal: Well there is a threshold though isn't there ... there is that conversation where...hm, from the absolute everything is included, but from the view of the relative, the absolute doesn't have a place....
    Calvino Rabeni: It's not true, that there are basically just these two modes of understanding
    Calvino Rabeni: conceptual vs nonconceptual, for instance
    Zen Arado: no ...that 's dualistic
    Wol Euler nods.
    Zen Arado: we are so used to thinking that way though
    Zen Arado: hard to stop doing it
    Calvino Rabeni: right, the aphorisms get taken that way, but then it distracts from developing flexible and subtler modes of knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say, not really Zen, we don't "think that way" primarily
    Calvino Rabeni: but lots of ways at once
    Eliza Madrigal: the timeless can see the past/present/future and yet its open.. whereas if there isn't a kind of direct experience of that, then it doesn't make sense...
    Calvino Rabeni: the challenge is to be aware of them
    Calvino Rabeni: rather than learning some new way etc.
    Zen Arado: yes...but you have to notice your thinking
    Eliza Madrigal: so the thing is always to share and yet to always see/try for oneself... it really is something I've loved about PaB... why I think the explorations are so important
    Zen Arado: the way it operates
    Calvino Rabeni: Noticing what, exactly ?

    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Ya :)
    Bleu Oleander: nite Yaku
    Calvino Rabeni: BYe Yaku,
    Zen Arado: bye Yaku
    Wol Euler: bye yaku
    Zen Arado: too slow
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, those avs should "know" not to disappear so quickly
    Zen Arado: :)
    Wol Euler: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: and even when there is that direct experience, hehe...speaking for myself it takes on the illusion of being 'gone' quite often...
    Calvino Rabeni: Noticing can discover lots of different things
    Zen Arado: I tell people to not be so dualistic bit I am being dualistic myself all the time
    Calvino Rabeni: fair enough
    Eliza Madrigal: its like seeing amnesia, what we were talking about... ?

        --BELL--

    Calvino Rabeni: Right it is interesting to observe one's own amnesia


    Direct experience and being in survival mode, what is the difference?

    Calvino Rabeni: There's the idea of "direct experience" but ... we wouldn't be very good at knowing how much it is actually conceptual in nature
    Zen Arado: zen teachers like Steve Hagen tell you to just *see* what's going on
    Calvino Rabeni: Some investigators try to pry that open
    Calvino Rabeni: Like Ralston, for instance
    Zen Arado: not judging whether it's right or wrong, good /bad etc
    Eliza Madrigal: I think we would 'know' because distance collapses... we'd then have to expand it out to explain to someone else... or write a paper about it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That's more like an attitudinal position, like putting yourself in an attentive state of mind
    Zen Arado: yes
    Bleu Oleander: judging good/bad right/wrong .... good ability for survival?
    Zen Arado: instead of rushing to put a judgement…good / bad on anything
    Calvino Rabeni: But it doesn't directly control anything "structural" about the self/perception process
    Eliza Madrigal: well, in survival though, our bodies have an intrinsic response to do / respond... then we think about it...
    Zen Arado: yes Bleu....but that's the problem isn't it?
    Bleu Oleander: good thing we don't think too long sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: well, "problem" is also a point of view
    Eliza Madrigal: even though we think we are rational creatures
    Zen Arado: self survival mode stops deeper knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe the biggest imaginary thing about selves, that they are rational
    Zen Arado: yes...words are so inadequate
    Eliza Madrigal nods to both :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yesterday Yaku left a nice link to a collection of spiritual poetry by tagore - did you see it?
    Zen Arado: our old survival instincts are outdated
    Eliza Madrigal: no.. where did he leave that?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hold on...
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting idea Zen :)))
    Bleu Oleander: some of them perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/tagore/strybrds.htm
    Eliza Madrigal: our proportions do seem to be off... the amount of stress and fight/flight we have to benign things
    Zen Arado: we still have instincts from when we were on the African savannah
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah thanks Calvino (and Yaku)
    Calvino Rabeni: it seemed to have lots of expressions of "outside conceptual" knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: some quite sweet
    Zen Arado: studied him once in an art history course
    Zen Arado: ha was a painter as well
    Zen Arado: and an intellectual
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, then, there's a mismatch - technological life is much to "tame" to satisfy our evolved instincts
    Calvino Rabeni: Food is to easy to get
    Bleu Oleander: for some


    Forgiveness as an important tool for 'knowing'

    Eliza Madrigal: hm... thinking of our thinking that we are rational, one example is when a good friend says something 'inappropriate' and because one knows them, assigns good motives, sees a mistake, but maybe someone else does the same, and we can be appalled
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, for developed countries
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking of Wol's quote - Understanding implies forgiveness
    Eliza Madrigal: agree
    Zen Arado: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Hugo? "To know all is to forgive all"
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Wol Euler: right!
    Eliza Madrigal: takes a bit of a taste and play with awareness to have that capacity perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a statement by Goethe - I forget where - basically, there is nothing that any human has done, that I myself would not do under appropriate circumstances
    Eliza Madrigal: a feel of some kind of intrinsic safety
    Zen Arado: that's like the 'empty boat. story Eliza
    Calvino Rabeni: That's an expression of the same idea, with some empathic insight into the things labeled evil
    Zen Arado: agre with that to Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, nodding, again both :D
    Zen Arado: 'there but for the grace of God go I....
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes,I always liked that statement, Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes that has such a comfort
    Eliza Madrigal: kindness
    Calvino Rabeni: And the self-reflecting version of it
    Bleu Oleander: what does that really say though?
    Zen Arado: except I am no longer under God's grace.....
    Calvino Rabeni: Is something like praying for god to have mercy on my soul
    Calvino Rabeni: which implies self-forgiveness
    Eliza Madrigal: zen, you're no longer 'under' the idea of what someone said 'about' god... which is surely quite different :)
    Zen Arado: well...I would say it if I saw a homeless drunk on the street...
    Zen Arado: is my take
    Eliza Madrigal: Bleu, I think its a statement of humility
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not traditional christian, but have found a lot to appreciate in that tradition, after having rebelled at its excesses
    Bleu Oleander: I think it's more a statement of feeling special
    Zen Arado: there is a lot of wisdom in the Bible
    Calvino Rabeni: Humility (christian), or submission (islam or sufi)
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting angle actually Bleu

        --BELL--

    Calvino Rabeni: is the willingness to be actively receptive to intelligence greater than oneself
    Eliza Madrigal: but then I remember when years ago my neighbors car was taken and for some it was easy to say 'well they this or well they that'... was so silly when we're all so limited, so capable of blindspots, etc
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: what do we know... so its like acknowledging one has had some fortune, in a way... at least from one angle
    Calvino Rabeni: There is smart "ego" and stupid "ego" - the stupid one doesn't take a hint from Reality

    Qt Core: hi all
    Wol Euler: hello qt
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt
    Zen Arado: Hi Qt
    Bleu Oleander: hi Qt

    Zen Arado: well...I think a Christian saying that is saying that only for putting their trust in God to help them they could have ended up like a homeless drunk
    Zen Arado: so it is humility really
    Calvino Rabeni: @eliza, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: but then again, what you say speaks to something lia talked about a week or so ago... who is she to think that she was 'more' fortunate than those she was seeing without running water....
    Calvino Rabeni: Some people find it useful to think in hyperbole, Zen
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Calvino Rabeni: and yet, it's possible to translate it
    Zen Arado: I do I think
    Calvino Rabeni: and find what it means
    Calvino Rabeni: The exaggerated statements that look illogical or silly on the face of them
    Calvino Rabeni: but, they mean *something*
    Zen Arado: love ad absurdum arguments
    Zen Arado: or Nasrudin stories
    Calvino Rabeni: It's an issue of hermeneutics - interpretation
    Zen Arado: crazy wisdom
    Calvino Rabeni: ahh, know some Nasrudin jokes?
    Calvino Rabeni: Some are pretty off-color
    Bleu Oleander: need a plain brown envelope today :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Many about circumventing traditional social logics, in a clever way
    Zen Arado: Nasrudin was visiting a friend one afternoon. They became so engrossed in their conversation that they didn't notice the passage of time. Night fell, and the friend said, "Nasrudin, it's dark. Why don't you light a candle? You'll find a candle and matches in the drawer to your right." "What!" shouted Nasrudin, "How do you expect me to know my right from my left in the dark?"
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Bleu
    Wol Euler: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: speaking of noticing passage of time...
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Nasrudin had been dating a girl for a year. One day the father cornered him and said - "I must know, are your intentions honorable or dishonorable?" /"You mean,Sir, that I have a CHOICE??"
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    Zen Arado: he he

    Zen Arado: I better go myself
    Bleu Oleander: cu bye all
    Wol Euler: bye zen, bye eliza, bye bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone :) I hope half of what we talked about makes some sense when I read the log ;-)
    Zen Arado: bye
    Qt Core: bye bleu, eliza, Zen
    Bleu Oleander: nice Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Waves ((( )))
    Bleu Oleander: bye :)


    Eliza's comments ? :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Well, feel free to comment the log too, Eliza
    Calvino Rabeni: (when you read this in the Wiki - yes, "now" :)
    "(place here please Eliza)"


    Wol Euler grins.
    Calvino Rabeni: It is wiki, after all... Darren claimed it, but anyone can comment (for certain values of "anyone")
    Wol Euler: sure
    Wol Euler: either by editing, or in the Comments field below
    Calvino Rabeni: And really, it would probably help the scribes a bit
    Calvino Rabeni: AH, how about a PaB initiative -
    Calvino Rabeni: "Comment The Log Day"
    Calvino Rabeni: Or perhaps the logs could be made "self-commenting"
    Qt Core: it would open the way to longer discussions continued on the wiki
    Wol Euler: good ideas
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, it could
    Calvino Rabeni: if there's a way to index them to keep track of which exist
    Calvino Rabeni: In a certain way a PaB session gets reset to square one each time it happens
    Wol Euler: in theory we could use the tags for that
    Calvino Rabeni: like the movie Groundhog Day
    Wol Euler: heh
    Calvino Rabeni: Right the tags could be handy
    Calvino Rabeni: now that we have own server and updated wiki software, some new tech possibilities are available
    Qt Core: it is funny how in past few year most IT problems are solved (are they ?) by tagging around

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