2010.06.06 19:00 - The Time Wall

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.  This was an interesting, 6-hour session.  The time seemed to fly by, without a break in concentration.

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Calfino,,,, are you actually there/
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino ... I meant.
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Sorry for lateness
    Calvino Rabeni: How are things with you?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It's nice to be here. I look forward to this.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... pretty good although it's been damn hot here suddenly, makes me grumpy sometimes ... although taking it significantly better this year ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... and yourself?
    Calvino Rabeni: Funny, I was grumpy because it was NOT hot :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Not really, but there has been one sunny day this spring
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Grumptitude can always find a channel!
    Calvino Rabeni: Quite resourceful, isn't it?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... the famous Pacific NW ambience ... do you find it lends itself to introspection then?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm wondering about climate's effects on the character of people who live in a region
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I believe that there is a profound effect.
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the extremes of seasonal effects with high latitudes
    Calvino Rabeni: or the absense of them near the tropics
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I believe the high latitude people really celebrate the summer and party a lot. Not sure how they cope with winter though ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I thought Silicon Valley was kind of a-seasonal ... I missed the more distinct seasons when I lived there.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm curious about that also - climates were it might be dark most of the winter
    Calvino Rabeni: Silicon Vally had its micro-climates
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: What do people DO all day, I mean night?
    Calvino Rabeni: If you want fog, go to the coast
    Calvino Rabeni: For those latitudes, there must be some resulting design responses
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I watched that video link you sent of Piet Hut (Pema) with that Indian film maker. He mentioned the 15 minutes contemplative break. I felt I wanted to take it more seriously and really contemplate at these breaks ... in the past I've been rather casual about that.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: He said, "drop what you have to see what you are" (I think) ... I liked that. I wrote it on a post it and put it on my monitor.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: You are sitting on our Guardian, Beddown!
    Calvino Rabeni: Hehe
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino you are zenlike as always.
    Beddown Nitely: sorry not rezzed yet only seen a pillow, thanks god i didnt have the bked beans for lunch
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ah the virtual baked beans
    Calvino Rabeni: That happens ... no problems
    Calvino Rabeni: Beddown, can I give you a notecard about this place?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Guess not!
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, it s a coincidental response to the question of what people do in those northern climates
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I need to become more adept with smilies ... at least have a few that I'm competetn with
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ha ha!! Indeed!
    Calvino Rabeni: The name, that is :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: what draws your attention Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been slowly "dropping" a headache tonight - a little slow
    Calvino Rabeni: So, what shall we do with our attentions tonight ? :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: we could shamanically alleviate your headache through indirection
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I noticed during the break that I felt more clear due to body awareness during the break. I also think I felt more clear or more (something) when I asked what draws your attention and you shared that you have (or are dropping) a headache. Felt more real or personal.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: You could try to make your hands hotter - that's the classic biofeedback approach to alleviate headaches
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe - I'll go for the shamanic method :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand that shift you were talking about though
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: OK, I'm shamanically healing you via remote intentionality ...!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm making your hands hotter, ha ha!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... actually I originally said "through indirection" ... wondering what I meant there
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: probably meant, "by not trying directly" but perhaps by distracting your attention?
    Calvino Rabeni: redirection then
    Calvino Rabeni: what time does it appear to be here - Night?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I set the world time to midday for myself .. it was sunset when I arrived ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... it was sunset, but then it got kind of gray and weird, so that's when I made it midday.
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, I set "midday" also
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: so perhaps that helps us be attuned a bit more ... kind of like the weather you mentioned earlier
    Calvino Rabeni: yes...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: How severe is your headache?
    Calvino Rabeni: Acck :) There goes the redirection ! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
    Calvino Rabeni: I was planning to take off my jacket - the heat from my hands spread up arms to my neck
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh. sorry. I was being in tune with I hope your head doesn't catch on fire!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oops didn't erase the whole first thought ... sentence has a discontinuity ...
    Calvino Rabeni: So, how about that shamanic stuff anyway?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well I haven't studied it in much depth ... but I imagine it has to do with being very integrated with all your awarenesses ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... as a foundation, and then energetically directing those energies, in a fearless manner ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... that's my fantasy anyway. Not clear on the underlying purpose ... probably different in different cultures' versions of shamanism
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: like, I presume healing is one application
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: the whole Carlos Casteneda trip is probably the main source of my ideas on the topic.
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I never read the last 6 or 8 volumes
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure if that was really a public service or not, to write those books
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, one of those matters one can project many different thoughts or feelings onto
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I would say, yes, a ublic service
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of shamanic ways of knowing is still on or over the horizons for myst people, mainstream as well as those interested in the two big worldviews
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: how could one evaluate? would it be purely subjective
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes ... but here we can delve into such! in fact, it's part of the mission I would say
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree it's appropriate. A number of people around this group have some interest init
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I note that the definition of the word "shamanic" is rather vague in my own mind.
    Calvino Rabeni: but in some cases the response is "Huh?" or one that is kind of opposed
    Calvino Rabeni: Understandably vague
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... something like "magical" and "intense"
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that's the disadvantage of the castaneda ideas
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ?
    Calvino Rabeni: There were a number of them - basically serving to make the subject seem remote, exotic, extreme, and escapist
    Calvino Rabeni: All of those are barriers to understanding and using the knowledge in normal people's lives
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... but some were accessible ... like the idea of your death looking over your right shoulder ... that one made an impact on me.
    Calvino Rabeni: let alone giving it inroads into the scientific worldview
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: hmmm ... it occurs to me that shamanism, or "Casteneda-ism", is kind of resonant with first person empiricism!
    Calvino Rabeni: Surely so
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Perhaps that very exoticism is necessary - in terms of shocking one out of the everyday wordlview ... perhaps that knowledge isn't actually designed to be used in normal people's lives, but only in unusual people's lives ...
    Calvino Rabeni: it needs some ontological foundation work, to be accepted
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .. yet we all are fascinated by such things, even as children, everyone loves the idea of magic ...
    Calvino Rabeni: No I don't agree with that, since I'm a "middle path" person
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... how about Harry Potter, at Hogwart's being initiated into some Castenadan experience?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say the same thing about some approaches to western phenomenology - that the temptation to extremism is there, but doesn't really serve the development of the knowledge
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... Ok .... please explicate a bit on the middle path (I've been exposed but have forgotten the meanint of the term) ...?
    Calvino Rabeni: Other than perhaps as a kind of "hook" for the imagination
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So you don't agree that the exoticism is necessary?
    Calvino Rabeni: Middle path ? Hmm...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I don't agree the exoticism is necessary
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: necessary to ... ? understanding the nature of reality and incorporating that into our daily lives?
    Calvino Rabeni: It has a small but valid role in the ... can't quite find the word ... dramatics of the narration
    Calvino Rabeni: But I don't think it contributes - perhaps detracts - from the pragmatic level (practice and application)
    Calvino Rabeni: And I don't see it contributing to the ontological level either
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: of course one man's exoticism is another man's daily reality ... or could be
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but that's a teaching issue, not a first -person issue
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Just having ANY level of body awareness could be considered radical by some
    Calvino Rabeni: That would be rather odd
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I do think that the teaching of simple body awareness and integration techniques to the average (masses) would be awonderful thing to improve the world.
    Calvino Rabeni: It is subversive to standard philosophy, both explicit and folk, but,,,, not to experienced life, I'd guess
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that would be a very generative thing to do
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It's my perception that the average person (in middle class America) is very fragmented and unwaware of even the most basic of their own characteristics.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd agree, if I had to guess
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm often surprised at the apparent gaps in awareness
    Calvino Rabeni: which are easier to see in other people than in oneself :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: too true
    Calvino Rabeni: There are some efforts to push the edge of ontology, to make more room for shamanic knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Ontology-Consciousness-Percipient-Action-Bradford/dp/0262731843
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a little like the comparative religion work of the last century
    Calvino Rabeni: trying to create an integrative conceptual framework
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ontology - definition - "nature of being??
    Calvino Rabeni: in which the different ways can be considered
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the "what exists" question
    Calvino Rabeni: So if you build models of consciousness, and then commit to the existence of the objects and structures of those models, it is an ontological approach
    Calvino Rabeni: And to the extent the particular ontology shapes one's possiibilities of understanding - introducing new affordances as well as constraints - that's an ontologica commitment
    Calvino Rabeni: *l
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: but it all depends on what the meaning of "is" is! ( per Bill Clinton) ... or more accurately, what the word "exists" actually encompasses., eh?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... ah, "affordances" ! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That might be called meta-ontological
    Calvino Rabeni: It's also possible to adapt an ontological agnosticism, or minimalism, as Husserl did
    Calvino Rabeni: Or to take ontology in a pragmatic manner
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I must say, Calvino, those two sentences are beautifully clear (from "So if you build" ... to "ontological commitment."
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I try to steer clear of ontological commitment, to the extent that I am aware of it.
    Calvino Rabeni: That's the rub, isn't it :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, to delve into the nature of "is" a little ... instead of the word "is" denoting a black and white, clearly delinieated referent ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... it denotes a group set of referents that are distinct, yet fuzzy edged
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... and that the "is" consistently means that fuzzy-edged set ... one can still use language but feel more accurate about it ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... less"committed" to something limiting.
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree with that position on language, in a pragmatic sense
    Calvino Rabeni: if not in an ontological sense
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: that's kind of how I see the word "is" since being shocked by the exoticism of neural networks.
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think a lot of what goes on here, as well as everywhere in the world, could fall into the realm of just discussing language - how to use it, its limitation, moral considerations of language use, etiquette and conventions etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: True, but also a tempting trap of course
    Calvino Rabeni: Depends on how you "hold" those words
    Calvino Rabeni: Or "use" them
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: in what way, a trap, Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, the mind is a great servant but a terrible nmaster
    Calvino Rabeni: mind, or ego, or "words", etc
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a trap because language embodies and activates whole worlds, of ontological commitments
    Calvino Rabeni: With a hypnotic effect
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, like, if we then give up on being able to communicate meaningfully, then there's no point in efforts such as we are doing here.
    Calvino Rabeni: I was trying to get to that
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, I see. Your language tonight is especially eloquent, Calvino. Or is it just me?
    Calvino Rabeni: The familiar eastern notion of "silence" for example...
    Calvino Rabeni: The dust of the dead words clings to thee. Wash thy soul with silence.
    Calvino Rabeni: (quoted)
    Calvino Rabeni: You're eloquent from my POV :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It is true that language embodies and activates whole worlds of ontological commitments! Just wanted to type that again, I like it so much.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say that proverb refers to a practice, but should not be taken as making an ontological commitment
    Calvino Rabeni: Those OC's are mainly unconscious
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yep!
    Calvino Rabeni: and have some simple levels and some complex ones
    Calvino Rabeni: An example that occured to me
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: agreed
    Calvino Rabeni: If you want to try to "catch" an OC in action, then reflect upon the difference in thinking and experience afforded by two different statements
    Calvino Rabeni: (1) What is - "IS"?
    Calvino Rabeni: (2) What is the meaning of "Meaning"?
    Calvino Rabeni: Both of those would be be self-reflexive of course
    Calvino Rabeni: in practice
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: hmm OK ... first try would be .... that "is" is more direct and felt in the chest/torso/gut, whereas "the meaning of 'meaning'" feels twirly up in the head and kind of foofy (if I may use such a term) ...
    Calvino Rabeni: The second one is broader than the first, in that, for (1) you are asking about the *meaning* of "IS"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: my take
    Calvino Rabeni: The body feelings when noticed then turn into relevant information - as well as adding another dimension of knowing
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don't feel that those two sentences impact me the same way ... so experientially I don't feel that "What is - "IS" is equivalent to "what is the meining of "IS"?
    Calvino Rabeni: No, you can take the difference in body feeling as at least, evidence that they aren't the same to YOU
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: uh huh
    Calvino Rabeni: And those felt senses are at least, an "anchor" for meaning, and maybe even a portal of some kind, if looked through
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: meaning - as in "shared meaning" or, privatete meaning?
    Calvino Rabeni: sure!
    Calvino Rabeni: ('m sending a link in IM, since it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: internally the felt seneses are integral to my private meaning.
    Calvino Rabeni: s a nonsequitur)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes they are integral
    Calvino Rabeni: One can question though, in what sense meanings can be private - question that familiar "inside" vs "outside"dualism
    Calvino Rabeni: As an alternative, there are all those ideas about "chakras"
    Calvino Rabeni: One idea being that different modes of knowing or action, are embodied with respect to those different felt "centers" in the body/mind
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ha! I see "shamanic ways of knowing " in your list ... how synchronicstic to tonight ...
    Calvino Rabeni: The higher position in your body, of the "meaning" concept, then can be seen as indication that the idea is more universal / transpersonal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Druth - GTSY - of course, join any time :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hello druth, how nice to see you again.
    Calvino Rabeni: Good To See You (GTSY)
    druth Vlodovic: ty :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: or ... "gutsy"? How gutsy of you to come see us!
    druth Vlodovic: I was wondering, "enter at your own risk"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yea, I was thinking - mitzi you're more "gutsy" about IS than Meaning
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, what may be at risk, druth?
    druth Vlodovic: I'll go with ignorance :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, cal, the location in the body stuff, extremely interesting, and something that's not talked about very much. Exciting to me to open up this perspecive.
    Calvino Rabeni: I could project some of my ideas into that
    druth Vlodovic: what are the five locations?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: five? I've heard seven most commonly
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, about chakras?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: in terms of chakras you mean, druth?
    druth Vlodovic: sry, I misread, the "centres" you were discussing
    Calvino Rabeni: There are different systems
    Calvino Rabeni: IN one system there are 5 functional "centers" - the higher and lower intellectual center, the higher and lower emotional center, and the moving center
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ah yes ... those feel different than chakras to me.
    Calvino Rabeni: They represent different ways of knowing; perhaps different mechanisms or capabilities of the body-mind
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't assume any of them to be a more correct model
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: one could map the different systems on to each other and see what they all substantially agree on ...
    Calvino Rabeni: If I had to make an ontological commitment (which I'm resistant to doing) I'd say, they are like the "user interfaces" of a computer
    Calvino Rabeni: One is Mac, the other Windows
    Calvino Rabeni: the details of the icons are a little different
    Calvino Rabeni: And some of the quaiity of what is experienced
    Calvino Rabeni: but there is also some hardware underneath it all
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: interesting analogy ... I can go with it ...
    Calvino Rabeni: SO they both have "files" and maybe some abstraction of "disk storage"
    Calvino Rabeni: And a screen, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Those are design constraints for the possible workable designs for the interface
    Calvino Rabeni: After long use, we forget, the design could be quite different
    Calvino Rabeni: if not arbitrarily different
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: quite differerent than ...?
    druth Vlodovic: I wonder how it fits with different learning methods
    Calvino Rabeni: As in philosophy of education perhaps?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or self-learning ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: that is one way people are most definitely different from each other ... they can be very different in how they learn best.
    Calvino Rabeni: Probably so... then a question is how to design a learning / teaching program based on that
    Calvino Rabeni: a question for Education.. or how to pursue one's own development
    druth Vlodovic: usually broken down by method, but if there is a base theory that could be applied
    Calvino Rabeni: basically, to depend on one's strengths and develop them, or to work on ones weaknesses
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: it seems that default public education is very slow to change, but is changing a little bit.
    Calvino Rabeni: A base theory would have a part that tried to understand what the differences were and another part on how to develop the parson
    Calvino Rabeni: *person
    druth Vlodovic: for instance a person who is a tactile learner might be stronger in "moving centre", if this is true it might help provide a broader understanding of the individual
    Calvino Rabeni: or that is, ontological and pragmatic (sorry for the philosophy jargon)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Druth, I go along with that
    Calvino Rabeni: but an educational philosophy would have to make some decisions of emphasis
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: so true. and, education is a place where it really matters what we think about how others are constructed internally. In many social interactions such differences wouldn't come to the forefront.
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, to teach a person to specialize / compete / produce, you might focus on strategic use of their strengths
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: that's how it *should* be!
    Calvino Rabeni: but if the focus is on developing a "whole human" you'd combine work on deficits, as well as strengths
    Calvino Rabeni: Spiritual systems as well as educational ones have to make similar choices
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... or strategies to cope with the society that doesn't value your strengths ... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was thinking that :)
    Calvino Rabeni: There are those biases in society
    Calvino Rabeni: but, even if we assumed far fewer biases, then we'd still have a situation of great diversity
    Calvino Rabeni: and people of limited ability
    druth Vlodovic: I suspect an acceptance of "higher and lower emotional centres" might give us more emphasis on arts and coping strategies :)
    Calvino Rabeni: So functioning there would include, how to use one's own strengths whiole knowing that others were different
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes!
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe learning to form teams with complementary skills
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: indeed ... what an expansive and welcoming perspective.
    Calvino Rabeni: @druth yes, the emotional center is not held in high esteem, because the contributions of the higher center are not appreciated
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don't think this perspective has trickled down yet too far though ... not mainstream yet
    druth Vlodovic: until people break down and need emotional fixing
    Calvino Rabeni: As to whether there are "really" two different centers, I'd have to pass - I'd prefer to look at that in terms of "function" and development
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, the knowledge we have, a lot of it comes from examining what is "broken"
    druth Vlodovic: how would you describe them?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think people develop over time, and activate different capacities from one time to another
    Calvino Rabeni: thus a person could have emotional intelligence skills that are often dormant
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, what those traditions were referring to is (1) the idea that those capacities can be developed, and (2) that it is important to become aware of them and somehow integrate them
    Calvino Rabeni: So that they are available for use, and not simply triggered by random circumstances
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a *slow* road for an indivual, and slower for the culture
    Calvino Rabeni: Which is actually a good topic - do you think that cultures are developing to greater levels of intelligence (or some other capacities).?
    Calvino Rabeni: Someone writes a book, e.g. "Emotional Intelligence" and it mixes into the cultural soup and has an effect
    Calvino Rabeni: Like Maslow's theory of needs and development
    Calvino Rabeni: which has become part of the "broth" of the culture
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: perhaps small enclaves within cultures develop, and those containing cultures either value or at least tolerate those enclaves, or try to destroy them
    Calvino Rabeni: even if you can't pick out that particular flavor anymore, it has an effect
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it useful to have frameworks that don't have the implicit assumption of some specific cultural pattern
    Calvino Rabeni: and can handle more diversity
    Calvino Rabeni: e.g. don't label those enclaves as abnormal, etc.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It seems that the contributions of foresighted individuals, if allowed to come forward, often contribute to other areas in that culture other than where it came from. In which case, a good, functionaly and self-rejuvenating culture
    Calvino Rabeni: More than that, it would be good for cultural theories to recognize the extreme importance of those pockets of diversity to the overall culture
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... and probably prosperous
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, yes Mitzi, I agree, but there's too much focus on individuals as cultural creatives
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: thus the recent meme of "cultural creatives" and how urban areas should be sure they have some of those oddballs for their own growth and prosperity
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: too much?!?? I was just getting h appy babout the prospect of probably not being burned as a witch!!
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the "oddballs" have their own communities of support and practice, and that needs recognition
    druth Vlodovic: within reason, too much acceptance has been used to attempt to reduce acceptance
    Calvino Rabeni: Thus the valid need for controlled isolation and secrecy
    Calvino Rabeni: The witches had their covens
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: your saying, we should stay semi-hidden and not become commodotized?
    Calvino Rabeni: Rosa Parks had a whole community around her helping her get to a greater social consciousness - before she decided not to sit in the back of the bus
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I agreee with that, Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: If the surrounding culture had been completely aware of Rosa's activities, it would have interfered with them
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: good point
    druth Vlodovic: I'm wary of promoting isolation, familiarity breeds acceptance, over time
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, it is like what happens in cells - the membrane is semi-permeable
    Calvino Rabeni: All life seems to depend on partial control of its local environment
    Calvino Rabeni: the important idea being "semi"
    Calvino Rabeni: So it's not promoting isolation
    Calvino Rabeni: but the middle way, a balance
    Calvino Rabeni: (to bring back that "middle way" idea from earlier)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... but the separation, the containment, allows a zone of different construction and rules to exist - if that wasn't there, we'd all be homogenized and beige
    Calvino Rabeni: exactly!
    druth Vlodovic: "mosaic" vs "melting pot"
    Calvino Rabeni: All those many little worlds, are experiments, that benefit the whole (except in some extreme cases)
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a system of massively paralell innovation
    Calvino Rabeni: The good bits get assimilated to the whole
    Calvino Rabeni: which of course changes their meaning a little :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes!
    Calvino Rabeni: It will be important to the future culture to develop these principles more
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well their meanings would change over time anyway, even within their source enclaves
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of diversity - in a bigger concept than social justice
    Calvino Rabeni: (I meant, bigger context)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, I like that very much!
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a unifying thread in the topics here, from before Druth came to sit
    Calvino Rabeni: earlier, looking for a broader way of understanding consciousness, to encompass, e.g. shamanism
    Calvino Rabeni: And now discussing public awareness of diversity
    Calvino Rabeni: as beneificial an innovative - beyond the usual considerations of personal rights, interest groups and so forth
    Calvino Rabeni: Those were politically important of course, to start to allow the culture to let diversity function better
    Calvino Rabeni: Can't ostracise or suppress all those creatives :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Here's another take on it:
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Difference-Diversity-Creates-Schools-Societies/dp/0691138540/
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni - nuff said by Calvino Rabeni :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm thinking that, absent education or cultural awareness of differences in cognitive styles, we would probably assume that everyone else is just like us inside ( or like we perceive ourselves to be) ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... then if they behave oddly or badly, we take that model of our presumptive self and try to backfit it to account for the puzling behavior
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Cos :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hello ;)
    druth Vlodovic: a thought, do you feel what you believe?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... resulting in very strange and judgmental ideas about others
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Cosmicflower ...
    druth Vlodovic: cosmic :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3
    Calvino Rabeni: THats a good thing to notice, druth
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: loading slow..
    Calvino Rabeni: <3
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd like to see it taught some how - "feel wihat you believe"
    Calvino Rabeni: which means, the centers work together
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: hmmm ... druth ... I think belief has both feeling and mental components ...
    druth Vlodovic: I'm not sure that would be good
    Calvino Rabeni: I"d also like a much broader word for that activity
    Calvino Rabeni: I use "knowing" but it's pretty general
    druth Vlodovic: I feel what my parents believed, I think my kids will feel what I believe, a generational moral lag
    Calvino Rabeni: When you use all the abilities - conceptual thought, feeling, intuition, together
    Calvino Rabeni: what could we call that?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I think I need to relog, there is something wrong now here. be right back
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ,,, Calvino ... could we call it "perceiving"?
    druth Vlodovic: "being" :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Could, but that word is tied to the idea of the "senses"
    Calvino Rabeni: In that book Ontology of Consciousness - there's a hint - the subtitle is "Percipient Action"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... so, something like "knowing" but fuller, with more of the feeling of those otherr aspets?
    Calvino Rabeni: WB Dear
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Thanks, now the view is correct ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm,
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, that would be good
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I did install emerald, might it bring some trouples ?
    druth Vlodovic: mine is ok
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Welcome back cosmic flowering one
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm. and I do not see this emerald version on my screen, but this first one when came here
    Calvino Rabeni: We can't "coin a phrase" really, and expect it to create understanding - if there's no "referent" in experience for what it may mean
    Calvino Rabeni: Cos, is there trouble with you viewer?
    druth Vlodovic: a phrase is just shorthand for people who already have an idea of the concept
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh yeh! what about "grokking"!! There's a phrase that was coined if there ever was one ... and still useful.
    Calvino Rabeni: rght
    Calvino Rabeni: *right
    Calvino Rabeni: but part of of language, is that Naming is a very powerful function
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, sometimes it seems when sit down, ava the environment goes totally in one colour, or like beeing "Inside" of some object what sims`s are made of
    Calvino Rabeni: Naming gathers together the vague ideas into a package and puts a handle to it
    Calvino Rabeni: Cos, sometimes the camera is in the wrong place
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and emerald view is not on screen, it seems to read there on inventory, but when clicking it, nothing happens
    druth Vlodovic: "grokk" has the advantage of being nonsense sounds
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ok
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, so it doesn't have pre-existing connotations
    Calvino Rabeni: How can "grok" be developed as an ability?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Grokking to me has a somewhat still intellectual slant, meaning something like "deeper, fuller understanding" ... what about you guys
    druth Vlodovic: not really an ability, since it is done per, object? concept?
    druth Vlodovic: intellectual/emotional/spiritual, accepting of wholeness of the (thingy) understood
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for me its aceptance of All
    Calvino Rabeni: I see it depends on having knowing use lots of abilities at once
    Calvino Rabeni: And don't think it's dependent on an objecte
    Calvino Rabeni: the object is a kind of "test" though
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, I really agree with that, Cos
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, and also "to Know"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Wow! that's a good question, Cal. All depends on what grokking means, and the eixsting grokking capacity foundation within the individual ... whether it can be developed ... perhaps we are back to shamanism! Ha ha
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not thinking, or believing, but to Know
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say, complete acceptance is something that opens the door to "grokking"
    druth Vlodovic: you'd need to remove yourself from the equation, in order not to filter understanding
    Calvino Rabeni: I think also it's part of the idea in that book where the word was invented
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: wow, yes, druth
    Calvino Rabeni: I will have to disagree
    Calvino Rabeni: but seeing with the Whole Self instead
    Calvino Rabeni: Every "bias" is a facet of appreciation :)
    druth Vlodovic: as long as you understand the bias itself
    Calvino Rabeni: I think in some traditions it is called Submission
    Calvino Rabeni: As if, lending one's eyes to a higher intelligence
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: # (transitive, slang) To have an intuitive understanding of; to know (something) without having to think (such as knowing the number of objects in a collection without needing to count them). # (transitive, slang) To fully and completely understand something in all its details and intricacies.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Coined by Robert A. Heinlein in his novel Stranger in a Strange Land in which the word is described as being from the word for to drink and, figuratively, "to drink in all available aspects of reality", "to become one with the observed" in Heinlein's fictitious Martian language.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, that might have been called "enlightened seeing" in PlayAsBeing
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: (the preceding copied off google)
    Calvino Rabeni: YEs, that's nice, Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: The drinking metaphor shows - new things become part of You
    Calvino Rabeni: and might take time to digesst?
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think there are impressions that are negative, per se,
    Calvino Rabeni: What do you think Mitzi?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hmmm ... can grokking something /someone be negative, is that what you are asking?
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking about impressions - the taking in part of that definition of grokking
    Calvino Rabeni: And the need for being discriminating
    Calvino Rabeni: not to take in poison unless it works as medicine
    druth Vlodovic: if you grokk torture...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well to say something is just plain negative, probably very hard to make such a judgment ... although some impressions can feel very poisonous at the moment
    Calvino Rabeni: that would be powerful medicine Druth... I'd be careful
    Calvino Rabeni: Back to that earlier theme about Shamans...
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the notion of Medicine in the native american tradition
    Calvino Rabeni: A very general word
    Calvino Rabeni: It means, virtually everything has its own Medicine
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: the most intensely painful experiences can transform someone or else destroy them
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: a double-edged sword
    Calvino Rabeni: And thus, available for healing, when appropriate
    Calvino Rabeni: It's like "little taos" but you can "drink" it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: the right amount of medicine, and not too much so it becomes poison
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: life without challenges means little growth or chance for maturity, wisdom
    Calvino Rabeni: I like it because it suggests that one may be discriminating and aware, but that the world is very diverse
    Calvino Rabeni: as, anything could be taken as a "lesson"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I feel that everything *should* be taken as a lesson ... grist for the mill!
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or to remember
    Calvino Rabeni: Yesss
    Calvino Rabeni: A reminder
    Calvino Rabeni: More like a Remembrance
    Calvino Rabeni: there are lots of different English words about memory
    Calvino Rabeni: with different spiritual meanings
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke "self-remembering"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I like this one <3
    Calvino Rabeni: Or, what happens at a funeral - or a statue that is "in memory of" a person who died - to honor them
    Calvino Rabeni: I like that one too, Cos :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Through most of history, "remembering" was not about facts
    Calvino Rabeni: but it brought deeper levels - awe, recognition, relationship
    Calvino Rabeni: And, I see those as asppects of shamanism
    Calvino Rabeni: Hidden in modern english :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: myth and meme
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, about funeral, for me its a farewell to that person to accomppany the One to light
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its kind of happy event for me while others do cry
    Calvino Rabeni: :))
    Calvino Rabeni: It is also a way to take people to be held in a different part of one's consciousness
    Calvino Rabeni: And to clear up any "unfinished business" sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: Forgive them, apprciate them
    Calvino Rabeni: otherwise some part of the dead person "clings" to one self
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, yes, many do that in their deathbed
    Calvino Rabeni: WHich is maybe, one definition of Ghist
    Calvino Rabeni: *Ghost
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think also "ghosts" all are not as a prison of some energy
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or lost
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there are some who chose by them free will to stay close this distance
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: who actually do not need help
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: who knows how or where to go, if they like
    druth Vlodovic: it's late, I'm off
    druth Vlodovic: bye
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Bye Druth
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ghost = archetype ??!?
    druth Vlodovic: thank you all
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, thanks for stopping in, Druth!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: good evening druth! it's been a pleasure.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Have You been here long time already?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: felt like time wall broke when Druth went off,
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Sometimes when meeting sisters and brothers
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes over 3 hours (could that be right?)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I feel like acrossing time wall
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then time flies
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: goes very fast
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: do not feel it`s been already for a while
    Calvino Rabeni: This one did go fast
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: going through timewall by going and coming back
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yes, I thought so ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Once when I helped those "ghosts"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I went over timewall
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: it's true time flies when you are having fun!
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and was "there" some time
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for me it felt like 15 mins
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when I "came back"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .. or, engaged thorooughly
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I noticed beeing 2 hours
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: crossing time wall ... ?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: get above time
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I translated it straight from finnish to english
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby its not a word in english at all ;)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well I thinkI understand it intuitively or poetically ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Cos, have you heard about the "TSK" study done at Kira?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and get back to "time"
    Calvino Rabeni: (Tmme, Space, and Knowledge)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: no, what is that?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: okey
    Calvino Rabeni: I book they were studying for a year or so
    Calvino Rabeni: It is one of the favorites of Pema
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe Mitzi knnows it through another curcle
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, not important, but I think it does talk about that time wall
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: perhaps
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I found out it at the same time I found Ghosts and ability to help
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: (only a vague and superficial awareness ...)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it happens also when driving a car
    Calvino Rabeni: But, all these things are present to discover by oneself
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yes, I agree
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and actually think its beter to find one-Self
    Calvino Rabeni: This might be one of the meanings of the shamanic approach
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and when found its good if having nearby some people who knows what one is experiencing
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes !
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if One have some questions about what have found
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree there also
    Calvino Rabeni: Shamanism might be defined in part, as that learning process
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: always good to have people around who know what you're going through
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and if once learned, maby it comes naturally then
    Calvino Rabeni: That is, it requires a willingness to experience reality on sutble levels, by oneself, directly, and have more trust in that process
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: easy to travel across distances
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: so, you help ghosts?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, once learned, this person would "remember" that it was learned
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have always felt those spirits
    Calvino Rabeni: and not discount their learning
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: as a little girl did not know what it is
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm curious about that ...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I will share ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or how to take it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: got knew also about living people energies
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: auras etc
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and then there were huge opening
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like a all shackless would have broken
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and I just found the way to travel through distances
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: did Understood what it IS
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and then get able to "discuss" with them gosts
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and help them get more "up"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I lived in Revonlahti area some years
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there were a old house and a other bilding
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: this other bilding was used these days free to go to all
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there were equipments that You can make mats
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: carpets
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ok
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I asked to one old lady
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I feel there are some old energy in that house, is there ghosts
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and she looked at me and said "you see it, hmm do you wanna go there"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I was a little time quiet and said "okey"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so we went there to that other bilding
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: (there were everyday coffee smell at the sertain time)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I sat down
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: she started to make her carpet
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: felt "rising up" a bit
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: only a bit
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to place where is mostly dark
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and there she was
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: with black dress
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I "asked" hare
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: her
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: why she is still here making cofe
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: she said she makes it for her husband to come home
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I said we are living now 2000
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: year
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and she can continue her path, he is dead
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: his husband
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: she did not know she is dead?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it seems to me yes, she did not know
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or stuck on her love to wait her husband to come home
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: but she could hear you, understand what you are telling her?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I said to her she can go where ever she likes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to other planets or reincarnate here
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I asked her to come with me
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so she did
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we went a bit more "up"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to the place where is more lightfull
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not bright light yeat
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there she went to "shower"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it was not water
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but it was light shower
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: you guide them up, help them be free from whatever is holding them down and is dark, ?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and she got new "clothes", colours
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: listen
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when she got her new colours
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: what a beautiful services it is that you do for these beings
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there were a kind of view like you see ocean and sky gets one
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on that point
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sky did open
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there came that bright bright light
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and one person came down like from stairs
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: she did recognice this one
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and went with
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I ded look around me
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and noticed I have opened an portal
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there came all over me those lost ones
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then I Yell to the space "now I need some help, I can not do this by my-Self
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and at the same moment I saw angels to come, also space ships, and more from there "light" point
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then I started to feel I have done my work now
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and started to "come back"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then opened my eyes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: felt truly cold
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: was freezing
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: She asked me did I see anything
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: i've heard of that ... the cold
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I said yes, and told the old lady what I experienced
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: also was quite tired
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: needed to go sleep about 1-2 hours
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: later I asked the old lady if there is still smelling cofe, and she said it did stop
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so This was my "opening" to help them ghosts
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: something you could provide that those angels could not - the energy of the living
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: a bridge?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, bridge or an portal
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I fell it kind of light pillar
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: thank you deeply for sharing that experience, Cosmicflower.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: very wide light pillar
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Your wellcome
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think experiences are for share
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: you are generous by nature I feel - in the sharing and what you do for the ghosts
    Calvino Rabeni: I second that, thanks !
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: is it satisfaying for you?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: satisfaying? what do you mean?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: wheb you help them, the ghosts, how does it make you feel afterwards ... why do you continue to help?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I do what comes front of me
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if help is needed then I do it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I understand - have this ability and it is needed
    Calvino Rabeni: It also draw more energy
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do not controll it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: being my-Self in every situation
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, I see .... thanks for sharing. It is food for thought for me.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sure ;)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: You know, I have been here for over 4 hours and feel I should stop soon
    Calvino Rabeni: You have good concentration :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Nice to meet You Mitzi, perhaps we do see soon again ;)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: THanks Cal .. I kind of got a second wind somewhere along the way
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: this situation elicits my concentration .... not an effort, just a flow.
    Calvino Rabeni: same same :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: same same same same! ")
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: (is that a smilie? typo ... or a new one I just invented)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ilike languages that use word repeats for emphasis
    Calvino Rabeni: like a "big big big" shrimp
    Calvino Rabeni: = Lobster
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, simple
    Calvino Rabeni: ?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3 I will go to have some beakfast, brb
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Enjoy :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Mitzi :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Lucinda
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Lucinda ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: At lunch, I think...
    Calvino Rabeni: OH WB
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: was on kitchen to have a breakfast ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ty
    Lucinda Lavender: working on the appearances
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: aa, what kind of?
    Lucinda Lavender: clothing
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, wonderfull
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or is it?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: joyfull?
    Lucinda Lavender: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: do not know ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: I am combining different outfits
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I like it ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: getting relaxed after singing a concert
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes do "girly" stuff ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: you was singing in rl concert?
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: aaa
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: wishes I have been there to hear ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: with at least 50 other singers
    Lucinda Lavender: I wish I could paly for you
    Lucinda Lavender: play
    Lucinda Lavender: I saw a group on youtube sings it.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;D
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: music is awsome thing
    Lucinda Lavender: Called the lark
    Lucinda Lavender: many dissonaces
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do not sing much expet by my-self, but found a painting again
    Lucinda Lavender: disonnances
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: also to kids
    Lucinda Lavender: nice
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I like to make my "own songs"
    Lucinda Lavender: good do you record to a phone?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like twaddle to kids by sing
    Lucinda Lavender: so do I
    Lucinda Lavender: twaddle?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: nooo, not recording ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, found the word from dictionary
    Lucinda Lavender: I find singing into the phone makes me remember sometimes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its like telling stories from head
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to kids
    Lucinda Lavender: llsilently nids
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: other words found to finnish work is ; to drivel, rave and ramble ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: silently nodding
    Lucinda Lavender: I am thinking the bell announces a rest as in music...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: word, not work
    Calvino Rabeni: :))
    Calvino Rabeni: "babble"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes boys do say "Moooommm "
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;) lol
    Lucinda Lavender: ah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when I start to sing those thoughts ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: Do you know the Moomintrolls?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yes ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: me too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Moomins are nice
    Lucinda Lavender: Cal do you?
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: : No, bit like to ?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: now days they do prefer pokemon
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and ironman
    Lucinda Lavender: chi;ldrens book characters
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
    Lucinda Lavender: yes:)
    Lucinda Lavender: Power...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: boys-stuff
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: wpe3cial skills
    Lucinda Lavender: oops
    Lucinda Lavender: special
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they all would like to be that little geen man from star wars ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: Yoda...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: me too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: he is great ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: what have you all talked about tonight?
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I shared my Ghost experience
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: went a bit late here
    Lucinda Lavender: ah
    Lucinda Lavender: I will read
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yeah ;D
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it was about 2-3 hours late I came ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: I see
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but perhaps there is no "late"
    Lucinda Lavender: no...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: only tmie ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: mite
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: oh
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: time
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;D lol
    Lucinda Lavender: mighty time
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, hope its not allmighty
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;D not eaven these days
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes it seems like to be in people`s life
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: just a sec, Simo seems woken up
    Lucinda Lavender: how old is he?
    Lucinda Lavender: a few monthes?
    Calvino Rabeni: Simo is very young, not sure - yes, about that
    Lucinda Lavender: other children too? More?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Simo is now 3 months after few days ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: one gives much energy when they are not yet sleeping through the night.
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, WB
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have 4 sons
    Lucinda Lavender: wow
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: biger ones are at ages 9,8 and 6
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they are like "little fathers" to Simo ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: Is it day time with you?
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: morning
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: abou 10 am
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess, 10AM?
    Calvino Rabeni: Okey
    Lucinda Lavender: nice
    Lucinda Lavender: some off to school?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ys, all
    Lucinda Lavender: nice
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: 'Mika (oldest) goes 4th
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Sami goes 2nd
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Jaakko goes 1st
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: now they started their summer holiday and they do enjoy so much
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: already went to their friends
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: these days seems that here is only me and Simo
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or 10 boys
    Lucinda Lavender: how warm is it?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, about plus 9 in cloudy side of house
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but in sun side about 20
    Lucinda Lavender: hmmm
    Lucinda Lavender: how does it feel?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: good ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: very good
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: winter was long
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and cold
    Lucinda Lavender: I bet
    Calvino Rabeni: I was wondering - how you get throught the winter
    Calvino Rabeni: What is life like :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we have a terrace on sunny side
    Calvino Rabeni: And is it very different than summer?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its wery warm place
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, it is totally different
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I love to live here, because the variety of nature
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: all is kind of "sleeping"
    Lucinda Lavender: do you have hot springs?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on winter with temperatures of minus 20-30 celsius
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and in spring all comes to rebirth again
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, and autumn also
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: birds comes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and start to sing
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: nature gets little by little green from snowy trees
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: that snow do melt down very fast actually when sun start to shine
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: this winter there were snow many meters
    Lucinda Lavender: I bet
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but we do have all things needed to keep roads clean
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and in cars there are different wheels for winter ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lots of clothings
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: kids love to play with snow
    Lucinda Lavender: puffy coats?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Thick covers on the bed?
    Calvino Rabeni: Filled with feathers?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: make their huts or cottages
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: some yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and some not
    Lucinda Lavender: snow caves to play in?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there are some people allergy for feathers
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yes ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they do dick
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and make cottages
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and slides
    Lucinda Lavender: I many sunny days?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its much fun eaven there is a little cold outside
    Lucinda Lavender: in winter?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, yes there are some sunshine, but not many hours in day
    Lucinda Lavender: right
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but still can see outside
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and having those lamps
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: eaven if there is dark, there can be played outside
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: do some skating
    Lucinda Lavender: I must sleep now..very tired.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and ski
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it might be like SecondLive at MIdnight - can still see things
    Lucinda Lavender: Nice to hear about you world...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Rest well Lucy
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3<3<3
    Calvino Rabeni: Dream well :)
    Lucinda Lavender: :)thanks...hope to.Did you read about my dream from this morning?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: no?
    Calvino Rabeni: No, where do I look?
    Lucinda Lavender: In a house with others...don't know them...
    Lucinda Lavender: guardian log
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah
    Lucinda Lavender: there are som lions in the house.
    Lucinda Lavender: A mother and babies
    Lucinda Lavender: I decide to keep the lions in a room together to protect the children of the house.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: Wondering how long this will last...
    Lucinda Lavender: since lions like space and food.
    Lucinda Lavender: End of dream
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: oh
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: interesting
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: no end
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: kind of
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: opening
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or open endd
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: mothers will take care of both lions and children...?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it can be possible
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but always defending children
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: animal energies...
    Lucinda Lavender: ane huma uner same roof
    Lucinda Lavender: under
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I know cat to be a female
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and dog a mal
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: male
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: also consider lion to be male
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or wolfs
    Lucinda Lavender: this was mother lion I think
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: mother can be also a lion heart
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: big cat
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
    Lucinda Lavender: yes!
    Lucinda Lavender: heart!
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it about your fierce side, Lucinda
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but them children, they were no lions?
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Now you know you have it, but choose to keep itseparate
    Lucinda Lavender: there were som children of the house and some lion babies
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)) <3<3<3
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think its nice
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not dream
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: true "thing"
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: my work
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes ;))
    Lucinda Lavender: protection and care
    Lucinda Lavender: many times I dream of children
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Do You have?
    Lucinda Lavender: 2, grown
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3<3<3
    Lucinda Lavender: and I am preschool teacher
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how You feel work there? Meaning
    Lucinda Lavender: good..
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if I do work, I do not know how to transform my-self there
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to all rules
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or the thing
    Lucinda Lavender: ah...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how need to "be"
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: watching 99% of time for their cues
    Lucinda Lavender: children give the cues to what they are seeing
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ohh
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I see
    Lucinda Lavender: making the boundaries so that all are respected
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and I also guess You understand them
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: meaning
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to help them be them-selves
    Lucinda Lavender: I try
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there are only few teachers like this
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: You are an Angel there
    Lucinda Lavender: many want to teach...
    Lucinda Lavender: above the childs need
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or they "need" to be sertain way so that they are "good enough"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have seen this
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: here
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Sami have had hard begining at shool
    Lucinda Lavender: :(
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: the one who goes 2nd
    Lucinda Lavender: yes?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Mika takes it easy
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: he do not want those rules
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Sami
    Lucinda Lavender: hard...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: can not understand why he can not stand up and go to say something to his friend if he have something to say about
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Lucinda Lavender: hard
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I hope he will become one with that system at least a little
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: with time
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;) smiling
    Lucinda Lavender: can he write yet?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: he was 2 weeks at shool and went to talk with principal
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes a bit
    Lucinda Lavender: a little?
    Lucinda Lavender: Maybe he can make a note for his friend...for later.
    Lucinda Lavender: or apicture
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, I need to say to him he can do that , so he do not forget it ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: or say to the friend...I will meet you on the playground to talk at the slide etc.
    Lucinda Lavender: we will meet...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: children's ideas are so important.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: teacher thought eaven he have ADHD
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but I asked her
    Lucinda Lavender: We offer to be secretary for the chil;d when they are upset...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if he do stay in place and concentrate with other teacher
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: she said Yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I said
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: why he does then not with You
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yes,
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they need to feel listened
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to be cared about
    Lucinda Lavender: and to know when the happy thing they want will come
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, yes, and not only when they have behaved "good enough"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I hope You would be a teacher of my kids..
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: yes.. as a basic thing...
    Lucinda Lavender: maybe in the dream
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: should be more teachers with understanding and awareness
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not only studied ones
    Lucinda Lavender: there are many skills I have only learned in the recent years...from montessori school...and
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders, if they work on Husbands ?
    Lucinda Lavender: then there is just my temperment which has always felt understanding of young children.
    Lucinda Lavender: :)...
    Lucinda Lavender: ha cal!
    Lucinda Lavender: why not?
    Lucinda Lavender: my boss says something about how the longgeds and the short leggeds are not so much different
    Lucinda Lavender: longleggeds
    Calvino Rabeni: Or the four-legged and two-legged
    Lucinda Lavender: everyone has needs of attention?
    Lucinda Lavender: ...yes...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, and some have their grail full of it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: meaning got too much
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
    Lucinda Lavender: right
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: these do not want it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: denying love might be other reason too
    Lucinda Lavender: nods
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: *milking Simo*
    Lucinda Lavender: nice!
    Lucinda Lavender: a favorite job in the world
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni is such a Batchelor :)
    Lucinda Lavender: aw
    Lucinda Lavender: maybe you could become a nanny
    Calvino Rabeni: I should be someone's godfather
    Lucinda Lavender: :)nice
    Calvino Rabeni: Overall what isyou impression of the Montessori school?
    Lucinda Lavender: I think it is, in the school I work, well balanced.
    Lucinda Lavender: Hands on, calm, enriched, movement to new room to do new tasks,
    Calvino Rabeni: Did it originate with Steiner, or am I thinking of something else?
    Lucinda Lavender: Imagination encouraged
    Calvino Rabeni: Good
    Lucinda Lavender: Steiner-Waldorf
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, ok
    Lucinda Lavender: Maria Montessori
    Calvino Rabeni: And what inspired her?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: wanting there to be a way for all children to allow their mind to absorb the environment
    Lucinda Lavender: explore
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: nice
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember in grade 1, there were blocks to play with and it was part of learning
    Lucinda Lavender: regardless of how much money they had to put into education
    Lucinda Lavender: so she started with kids of low income
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, in finnland education is free
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or all people pay it in taxes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not free, but not getting bill from it
    Lucinda Lavender: what do you remember about the blocks
    Calvino Rabeni: University also?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: But in highs chool books do need to pay
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: also in university, yes
    Lucinda Lavender: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I think there werenumber blocks, about 1cm square, in unit lengths, different colors, purple,yellow, etc.
    Lucinda Lavender: nice that the country educates
    Calvino Rabeni: And lots of differen geometric shapes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so, here is possibility to all to study as far as they like to
    Lucinda Lavender: great
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but books needs to pay when going to high shool and more
    Lucinda Lavender: what did you make?
    Calvino Rabeni: So to show visually, 2 + 3 = 1 + 4
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: so much can be understood with blocks
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and gravity
    Lucinda Lavender: :)))
    Calvino Rabeni: Does your school have those number blocks?
    Lucinda Lavender: you might find looking at a montessori catalogue intersting
    Lucinda Lavender: sort of
    Calvino Rabeni: No doubt
    Lucinda Lavender: we have this really cool grid thing and the bars of blue are showing 1,2,etc...then there are the red ones
    Lucinda Lavender: so you use number 9 blue and numbwer 1red to make ten
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hmm, I think I should start to prepare going to Oulu-city. it will start for boys archery course today, need to bring them there ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: you make up number sentances
    Lucinda Lavender: it looks like stairs
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Was wonderfull to See You Luci, hope to see soon again ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: Cosmic...I hope your day is great!nice to get to know you.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: And always joy to see You Cal <3<3<3
    Calvino Rabeni: :) have a great day Cosmic :))
    Lucinda Lavender: headed out too
    Lucinda Lavender: sweet!
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3<3<3
    Lucinda Lavender: onward...forward...nite Cal!
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ***<3<3<3***
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Tarmel, I need to go now
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but talk some other time ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Bye Dear
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3

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