2010.06.09 07:00 - Dreams reveal the malleability of time

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Gaya Ethaniel. The comments are by Gaya Ethaniel.

     

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Silver hat now?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, :) I love your kimono's ^^
    Eliza Madrigal: There must be a pattern here... I'm working on it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: there is ? ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: heh, thanks. Don't kimonos and maracas go together?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lovely!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... well yes thought there might be :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no, no pattern here
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Whenever I am quiet... am usually taking a picture.
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) will watch out when youre quiet and say cheese
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So might we have a topic today? What are you both thinking about?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: my last thought was if i could eat too much salad
    Yakuzza Lethecus: dunno if that counts as a topic :P
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes I don't either Ya
    SophiaSharon Larnia: um Ive babbled about what I'm thinking about for 3 sessions now, someone else plz :)
    Eliza Madrigal guffaws
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sure you can eat too much salad
    SophiaSharon Larnia: theoretically hahaha
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i made myself a green salad with tomato and yogurt dressing
    Yakuzza Lethecus: now i finished one with oil and vinegar
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, I really enjoyed Maxine's workshop yesterday... Lucinda and her teacher talked about the dream circle. It inspired wonderful dreams last night
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am still hungry,
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, it was interesting there
    SophiaSharon Larnia: salads do that to me too Yaku lol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: like chinese food
    Eliza Madrigal actually had a very profound PaB/Wu Wei dream about salad once.. haha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sorry i missed that Eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I was probably here shaking a maraca
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you find that talking about dreams inspires them??
    Yakuzza Lethecus: my only negative thought yesterday was that there was this ,,astrology" feeling in the air
     

    --BELL--
     

    Eliza Madrigal: yes, that's been my experience
    SophiaSharon Larnia: can you say more Yaku? and Eliza, how interesting... for me, 'wanting' to have dreams is like wanting to be precognitive, it's random
    Eliza Madrigal: Understand, Ya. That emphasis is yes, not particularly one that fits very well with pab's way of engaging the circle necessarily, but its also important to hear where people are coming from... how they have experienced things
    Eliza Madrigal: I found myself more open to charting dreams after listening to Dreaming's (Connie's) and Gaya's experiences
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i didn’t say that i didn’t like it it was just something that triggered some sceptical emotions which prevent me from ,,just listening"
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, agree
    Eliza Madrigal: Good to have the questioning mind engaged during these talks... was sorry to miss the end
    SophiaSharon Larnia: now wants to know what you're talking about, setting aside the notion that she thinks she does
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, the dream circle that Lucinda is a part of is one that has been going on for quite a while. Her 'teacher/mentor' has a particular kind of astrology/cosmology that she works with, based on lunar cycles mostly...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought it was an interesting note, that we tend to be a 'sun' culture... our clocks, the way we schedule things...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im pretty lunar :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've not really paid attention until recently... just here and there. How so?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it is hard to understand how these cycles would influence a non physical mind Yaku, when the gravitational forces maybe? Are said to work on the body on a physical level
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (Yaku)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I never really got it myself, I think mind transcends these things, but maybe thats a kind of box
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don’t bite anyone because of he’s interested in the topics
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: (SSL)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (Eliza, I cant answer your ?, i just id with t it more)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes the idea is that we are somewhat disconnected from our bodily intuition... like we are 'blind' to what is going on in the un/sub consciousness
    Eliza Madrigal: unless we develop different sorts of listening tools
    SophiaSharon Larnia: my first reaction was to think, oh im not disconnected! but i am
    Eliza Madrigal: and our body is affected by the earth, the earth by water, water by moon... everything feeding into everything I suppose
    SophiaSharon Larnia: energetic relationships
    Eliza Madrigal nods... and times of receptivity perhaps
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure of course, but its interesting... dreaming has been such a door for me so I always pay attention to others' experiences
    Eliza Madrigal: while at the same time feeling that each has their own unique path which is 'absolutely' individual
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i havent been dreaming nearly as much as I have in the past
    SophiaSharon Larnia: rarely that I remember anyway
    Eliza Madrigal: What are your sleep patterns like in the new schedule if I might ask?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sleep at night and get up early, just like everyone else now
    SophiaSharon Larnia: *sighs*
     

    --BELL--
     

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don’t sleep enough
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i try to sleep a bit longer on weekends now
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i used to sleep on weekends also only 5 hours like i do during the week
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it was better for a while until i joined pab :P
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i can join this session when i come home and the 1 pm is often the session before i go to bed
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i have to get up at 4:30
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and 2 pm is 11pm for me
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh my Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Engaging in virtual life part of the time has made many things more vivid and concentrated for me I think... including dreams/sleep somehow... I seem to require more sleep in some ways, too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Ive been requiring less sleep
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or can just keep track of how many i sleep now
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, your life is less physically strenuous perhaps Sharon?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: before it was kind of a mystery
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes true
    SophiaSharon Larnia: uggh lag!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the point is even to be interested in dreaming means to get some ,,rational priming" that we need sleep
    Yakuzza Lethecus: we learn that the memory works better and that sleep doesn´t mean we´re lazy buggers
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i tend to sleep better lately since i try to ,,drop" issues
    Eliza Madrigal: its easy to sort of make sleep conform to the needs of the day, but it seems disrespectful somehow... of natural potential... and causes health issues,e tc
    Zen Arado: that woman last night said something about how we would go mad if we didn’t dream
    Eliza Madrigal: That's inspiring, Ya
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, lack of rem
    SophiaSharon Larnia: indeed mad
    Zen Arado: is REM = dreaming?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: at least i think i don’t have to problematize my problems anymore all the time in order to solve them
    SophiaSharon Larnia: they say so ^^
    Yakuzza Lethecus: a part of sleeping
    Yakuzza Lethecus: rapid eye movement
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it’s a stage
    Eliza Madrigal: Well this is something else that's really interesting.... I read this article about that...
    Eliza Madrigal: seems like many things, researchers can find something interesting and get kind of 'stuck' there
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thats great Yaku :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: let me know your secret :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and miss that there may be other kinds of dreaming that occurs...
    Eliza Madrigal: in other ways.
    Zen Arado: 'problematize my problems' ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Let me see if I can find it. I was fascinated
    Zen Arado: make a big deal out od them Yaku?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i think there are many types of dreaming Eliza, occurring on several sleep stages
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes of course and thinking of problems as problems in my case doesn’t help me at all
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I don’t have any proof, just experiential
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i often even think how other ppl subjectively perceive terms like ,,problem" or ,,stress"
    Zen Arado: no - best to let go of them
    Zen Arado: but easy in theory hard in practice
    Yakuzza Lethecus: for me for example a problem is something ,,i don’t know how to solve and don’t anticipate a solution"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and stress is only negative for me
    Zen Arado: solutions just come themselves
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i hate ppl saying ,,i need positive stress"
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm... hopefully Stim wouldn't mind me spreading these things around... hah, but I did find it in a search: http://koantum.wordpress.com/tag/steven-tainer/
    Yakuzza Lethecus: they have a good tention at work
    Yakuzza Lethecus: maybe much work but they can handle it and don’t problematize it all the time
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hypnogogia/hypnopompic, rem intrusion on alpha, theta and delta sleep stages
    Eliza Madrigal: I used to feel like in order to get things done, I'd have to create a crisis somehow... took me years to see myself doing it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: whoops! meant that to say or***
    Zen Arado: thanks for article - will take a while to read
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wow that’s old
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles at Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: funny i even heard the lectures of elenor rosch
    Eliza Madrigal: That's what I mean... it takes a long time before people follow up on things outside of the main focuses...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: even tho i didn’t saw a direct connection between her and stim so far
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: eliza you also listened to the dream lectures ?
    Eliza Madrigal: I haven't, but would like to
    Eliza Madrigal: For a while I was being very intentional about not paying too much attention to dreaming
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://deimos3.apple.com/WebObjects/...36.01648310399
    Yakuzza Lethecus: buddist psych
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://deimos3.apple.com/WebObjects/...30.02410762918
    Yakuzza Lethecus: dream psych
    Eliza Madrigal: it sounds funny, because obviously it is a big focus for me, BUT we can get stuck in things (or at least I can)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks!
     

    --BELL--
     

    Eliza Madrigal: I think dreaming can help with 'time' some how... think if we can learn how to rest and bring that into our lives, then we might have more hm... wu wei engagement somehow... active and alive/healthy/creative
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually, i struggle not to force anything
    Eliza Madrigal: so we don't always feel like we can't keep up or are chasing/unsatisfied
    SophiaSharon Larnia: dreams do reveal the mallability of time
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm yes.... think that's the log title today ;-D
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (check my spelling^^)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles, of course
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: though "I struggle not to force anything" is great, too
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I can see a wu wei like process in the unfolding of a dream
    Zen Arado: "when do dreams start, reliably? the answer is, right before you go into REM sleep! So the dreaming starts before you’re in REM sleep. Furthermore, when people wake up in the morning and remember a dream, that’s normally the dream they just had, and usually that’s not REM. "
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but how would you see lucid dreams in a wu wei, how would that work?
    Eliza Madrigal: lucidity seems a quality that can spill into waking...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Zen, dreaming out of the rem stage hmm
    Eliza Madrigal: Zen, nods... yes that's the part I was caught by also
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (meant to type see dreams in a wu wei WAY sorry)
    Eliza Madrigal: so if we can get familiar with a kind of lucidity in dreams, when we are in a less rigid state, then perhaps we can recognize that in waking situations, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: you were clear though, Sharon :)
    Eliza Madrigal: In dreams, when we come across a bear, maybe there isn't as much anxiety... or there is but we can see it... and we let ourselves find or make options that we would never consider in waking...
    Zen Arado: "they may be dipping down into deeper levels of the mind (or of reality if you will) where that whole human being knows that whatever is happening that seems so distressing, wasn’t really that bad or at least wasn’t the whole story."
    Zen Arado: into being?
    Eliza Madrigal: mmmm, perhaps... its interesting isn't it...
    Eliza Madrigal: what do you think zen? you dream rather vividly right?
    Zen Arado: don't know
    Zen Arado: haven't thought much about dreaming
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought about the dream you shared at the circle... and wondered whether you 'heard' your teacher talking, or whether you 'intuited' your teacher talking
    Zen Arado: think it depends if I wake up immediately after a dream if it is vivid or not
    Zen Arado: I intuited it I think
    Eliza Madrigal: tiny details can be fascinating, thanks
    Zen Arado: my dreams are not anywhere as detailed as the one Gaya revealed
    Zen Arado: pretty broad brush
    SophiaSharon Larnia: mine usually are, and I think your right, those details may not mean as much as we like to think they do
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd be surprised if Gaya dreamed that vividly every night...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes your dream was very detailed too Sharon, lots going on
    Zen Arado: feels disappointed in the resolution of his dreams now :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ha!
    Eliza Madrigal: Mine vary. I usually remember a few dreams a night, and what I pay attention to most is the quality of lucidity
    SophiaSharon Larnia: low rez
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    Zen Arado: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think i know what you mean zen, but i don’t care :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it would be nice but if it doesn’t it’s also fine
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a few a night! wow Eliza
    Zen Arado: mine are dramatic action dreams anyway :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe youre waking up too much over the course of a night
    Eliza Madrigal: perhaps
    Eliza Madrigal: its one reason I think it might be interesting to chart them by more than mere date
    Eliza Madrigal: phases of the moon seems pretty simple to add in there, haha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: times of the night too, the times you arise from the deeper sleep stages
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (wave like)
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, true
     

    --BELL--
     

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :) I forgot I wasn't posting the session was already thinking of titles again...
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Oh give us the title Eliza!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i just realized why i havent been dreaming as much doh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i sleep at night now, not in 3-4 hr bursts like before
    Zen Arado: Hi Gaya:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah! yes that makes real sense Sharon!
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, earlier in the log, you'll read where we talked about it... and also your intricate dream... wondering if you dream that vividly on a reg basis
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, maybe just a period of adjustment
    Gaya Ethaniel: Light sleep does make me dream a lot, residue types of dreams.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes indeed Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: most people say that they dream their vivid dreams just before waking, but more and more those come earlier for me, with the 'karmic' dreams later.... odd pattern
    Gaya Ethaniel: Interesting :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I haven't explored dreams long enough to spot patterns yet.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i woke up several times lately thinking karma, but cant remember a dream
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm, maybe working things out
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for the tip Eliza on the title :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So Gaya, how often do you have such vivid dreams as the one you shared in circle?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... I drop dreams usually, not bothering to recall.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So I can't be sure but I probably dream less of residue types that are exhausting. Both types are vivid though.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me too Gaya, unless they are very emotionally imprinted
    Zen Arado: anybody have recurrent dreams?
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes considering stretches of time with 'exhausting' dreams...
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes Zen, often
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it’s enough that my daily thoughts are recurrent
    Eliza Madrigal giggles Ya
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    Gaya Ethaniel: I used to but not very often these days. Themes are more common though.
    Zen Arado: mine reflect former anxieties often
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed Yaku :) But those probably pop up in dreams too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or vice versa whether aware or not.
    Zen Arado: like I am in front of a huge control panel in a power station and I don't know what to do
    Eliza Madrigal: Before I was a meditator, I dreamed that Paul McCartney came and talked to me about it
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Eliza Madrigal: oooo zen, and its all up to you?
    Zen Arado: what did he say?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (as an aside, i just imagined a whole scenario of how that dream could go Zen)
    Eliza Madrigal: I have no idea Zen :)) Just remember that he was talking with me and I woke thinking about meditation
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: isn't he getting married again? You missed out there Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: shoot
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: alas, catch him next time ;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: surprised there was this time :)
    Zen Arado: after the last time
    Eliza Madrigal: yes go figure... strange
    Gaya Ethaniel: People often fall for shadow of a person rather than the person. Hope it's not the case for him this time.
    Zen Arado: he just likes being married....sigh
    Eliza Madrigal: Well his mantra is 'no regrets' so perhaps he is a stubborn romantic
    SophiaSharon Larnia: have to go all, bye :)) thanks!
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sharon :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Sharon :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye ssl
    SophiaSharon Larnia: waves
    Zen Arado: ah look at the time
    Eliza Madrigal: I need to go too actually...
    Zen Arado: better go too
    Gaya Ethaniel: I must get going too, dropped by to claim log. Have a good day.
    Zen Arado: bye all
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Everyone :)) Thanks Gaya
    Zen Arado: sweet dreams
    Eliza Madrigal: sweet dreams all :)

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